Becoming a Pilot for Fun

[goalphish2002]

Has anyone done this before?  Any suggestions?  I know this is going to cost about 12K or so for a private license in my area.  This seems reasonable. 

[Capt j-rod]

An old man taught me at a young age... "if it floats, flies or f$%^ks.... RENT IT! I have my private pilot license but it was literally free from working on the line at the airport when I was younger. I no longer fly. It costs a fortune and returns very little. I say this kindly, but I don't see the mustache community getting behind this idea.

[VoteCthulu]

It is an expensive hobby, but part of the mustachian philosophy is spending mindfully, not necessarily in the cheapest possible way, but in whatever way brings the most value.

I've looked into getting a private pilot license a few times, and just couldn't justify the cost, but if you have the money and desire, go for it!

Do include the cost of plane rental for all of the flight hours you'll need, including the additional cost for the IFR rating if you want that too.

[FI-REality]

I got my Private Pilot License about 8 years ago.  In total it took 8 months (flying 4 days a week) and around $12,000.

What have I done with it since?  Honestly, nothing.  I've made a few plans to fly here or there with friends or to meet up with friends who have moved, but every single time weather has been an issue on the day I planned to fly, so I cancel the flight.

Also, since then, I've gotten married and had 2 kids.  I currently have other things to put my money towards.  Maybe in the future I'll pick it back up; but at $200 an hour to rent a C-172, and a mandatory rent every 30 days to keep the rental insurance up to date, no thanks, I'd much rather spend that time with my family.

However, I will say it was an amazing experience and I'm glad I did it.  If I was still single, I'd probably have my IFR rating by now.

[dogboyslim]

x-plane 11.  $60.  Not exactly the same thing, but after watching my father throw away thousands on a small plane that is WAY less reliable than commercial flights that cost 1/4 the ticket cost and takes longer taboot, this is how I decided to fulfill my piloting dreams.

[obstinate]

There's also that whole "risk of crashing the plane and killing yourself and everyone you love" thing. Jetliners are very safe. Private planes are not! It is many times as risky as driving.

[WildJager]

Just for credibility, I'm currently an air force pilot.  I spent all of my working money in high school to get a pilots license because 1: Flying is very interesting to me and 2: To get myself started on what I wanted to do down the road. 

So there are a few options to this "Becoming a pilot for fun" thing.  Either you're doing it for the love of being in the air, or you're doing it to travel around with people (or even just yourself) at the controls of something that has the capacity to traverse cities.  On the latter... it's not cost effective honestly.  It's not just the cost of training, but of the currency required if anyone is going to rent a plane to you.  On buying a plane, don't bother.  The maintenance costs will eat you alive unless you're able to monetize it or you make enough money in your real job that it doesn't matter.  You could time-share it, but that's less flexible than just renting and more expensive if you don't utilize your time share perfectly. 

The hard part about flying to jetset on a private plane is that you, one way or another, have to pay for all the time the plane sits on the ground during your vacation.  Either you own it and pay the maintenance costs, or you rent and pay them a fee for their lost utility.  Otherwise your only option is the fly locally with friends and family.  Honestly, the intrigue will wane after a few years unless you're one of those who get a hard on for "being a pilot".  It's a fun little outing to take someone up in the air for the first time, but honestly (as someone else mentioned) it is a bit dangerous if you're only marginally proficient.  If you can't afford to fly several times a week, frankly, you're probably not a very good pilot.  Take that for what it's worth.

Now, on the positive side, if what you want to do is FLY... there are options.  Ultralight flying in single seat aircraft is extremely affordable, safe, and honestly more fun for just dinking around your local area compared to a normal light aircraft.  The most modern and mainstream tech in this vein is powered paragliding.  They are much more manageable than older hang gliders, lighter weight (lower speed, less impact/repair from a mistake), and quicker setup/teardown time (literally minutes compared to around an hour).  The "powered" part is that you have a high performance two stroke motor on your back (or on a chassis so you can have a seat).  The backpack type requires about a football field of clear space to fly freely.  The chassis version requires a bit more land. 

Now, while many people might scoff and say flying in ultralights is dangerous, the fact remains that flying is dangerous.  People don't get killed or hurt because they were flying an ultralight vs an airplane.  Terra firma hurts just the same weather you're flying a glider or a fancy Beachcraft.  The problems come with lack of proper training and proficiency training after you've earned your license.  You see more accidents in ultralight aircraft because, according to the FAA part 103, certain classifications require no training what-so-ever to legally fly.  Sometimes people get the idea that ultralights are go-karts of the sky.  They are not.  They operate under the exact same mechanics as every single aircraft that takes flight.  No one would solo a Cessna who's never flown before, and I suppose that the gauges and knobs are intimidating.  For some reason people think it's ok to take ultralights up without training.  If you have respect for the environment you are operating in, and a thorough understanding of your machine, it's a reasonably safe hobby.  I'm more nervous driving down a highway than I am cruising in smooth air in my paraglider, so take that for what you will.

If I may, check out Blackhawk paragliders if you're interested.  While I was training there (mind you, I was a trained pilot at the time who had flown in combat... you getting the footstomp on training yet?) I met all kinds of people of all ages working to learn the art.  They were great people and had an excellent program to get people into the air.  I'm sure there are plenty more, but I'm just mentioning them because I've flown with them first hand. 

So, to summarize, do you want to fly or do you want to FLY?  Living out the dreams you had as a child is affordable today magically.  Flying to share the experience with others by going out for a snack and back... eh, doable but extremely expensive for what you get.

[Optimiser]

I'd say this is a pretty unmustacian thing to do. Even if you are FI. Even if you enjoy it.

Reasons: It's expensive, and not good for the environment. Hedonic adaptation.

Source: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/

And so I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness.

[T-Money$]

I really enjoy flying.  I couldn't imagine a life without doing it.  It brings me an immense amount of happiness.   Through it comes other interests, such as meteorology and geography.  It defined my college major and my professional path in my life. 

Without the flying outlet my life could have ended up quite badly.  It's one of the few things I'm good at and have a knack for.

The neat thing about being FI is you aren't as dependant upon the views others hold.

[YttriumNitrate]

In grad school, I came close to getting my private pilot license but ran out of money after completing the cross country three airport trip. Even if I had finished, I doubt I would have used it, but the lessons were certainly worthwhile and would do it all over again. My first solo landing (took three attempts) is something I'll never forget.

Purdue has an independent flying club with three aircraft (https://engineering.purdue.edu/PPI/about.php#our-fleet), and joining saved a bit of money since the planes were a bit less expensive to rent. If there's a flying club near you, I'd suggest checking it out.

[GenXbiker]

Please explore much less expensive hobbies!

[shunkman]

I was an airplane fanatic as a kid. Still am to some degree. I starting taking flying lessons at 14 using money earned cutting grass. I got my license at 17 and was dreaming about a flying career. Due to marginal eyesight, color blindness, and lack of funding for more intensive training, this dream did not happen. If I had the extra money I would definitely still be flying. I might consider an ultralight once I reach FIRE. For now, I ride a motorcycle which costs way less but still has some of the thrill and escapism that I crave. If you can really afford it, then do it!

[sokoloff]

I got my private pilot certificate back in 1999 and have flown about 1400 hours since starting. (I took several years off after a back-to-back promotion at work and the birth of our first child when there just wasn't any time to do it.)

For me, it's been very rewarding, though it is undeniably expensive. We own our aircraft and that becomes cost-effective around 150-200 hours per year though has obvious advantages around scheduling, such that I'd own if we only flew 50 hours per year. If you can't fly 50 hours a year, you're almost surely going to be unsafe at anything other than short, daytime sightseeing flights in very benign weather.

We just got back yesterday from a vacation to take my kids (6 & 8) to see my parents near Myrtle Beach and to see the eclipse. On Monday morning, we woke up, looked over the forecasts and decided on where to go to have the best chance of clear skies and totality. Flew just over an hour (~200 miles) and experienced the eclipse camped next to our plane, flew back 200 miles for dinner and bedtime. At Grammy's house, the skies were overcast and rainy; if we'd have been car-bound, we probably wouldn't have seen any of the eclipse and certainly not seen totality.

My family is 725 miles away; my wife's family is 700 miles in a different direction. Both are easy non-stop 3.5-4 hour flights, stopping only if one of the pax needs to use the bathroom. (Restrooms are located at either end of the flight, not on-board.) As a result of having the airplane, we see each of our families at least one extra time per year, often two extra times, and that makes for stronger family connections. We can take our dog in the airplane just like you would in your car.

On the downsides, there is significant (massive by MMM standards) expense for all this. We spend between $30K-50K per year on aviation. You could rent and spend way less, but that's not going to get you an airplane over Thanksgiving weekend, Christmas weekend, a week in the summer here and there, etc.

Safety is substantially in the pilot's hands and mind. Don't run out of fuel and don't fly into heavy weather and you eliminate about 2/3 of the fatal accidents. (Yes, pilots very regularly die from running their non-leaking airplane out of gas; there's no excuse for that [absent a mechanical failure, which is rare in these accidents].) That leaves the last 1/3 of accidents that are harder to find a single cause for, but in 90% of the cases, the pilot had a significant contribution to the fatal accident chain.

The airplane (at the piston engine level that you'd be considering) is substantially less comfortable than an airliner or modern passenger car. Few have air conditioning; none are "stand up cabins"; most are closer to a legacy VW Beetle that flies than anything you're used to. They're nowhere near all-weather.

It also saves no time, but instead sucks up massive amounts of time (much like any hobby, but don't think that flying is going to save you any time). I can pretty well match or beat the day-of door-to-door time vs the airlines on most places east of the Mississippi and north of Florida. The airlines will beat me to Orlando, TX, St Louis, and anywhere west, but I'll probably beat them to most anywhere inside of 600 miles because I don't have to show up 90 minutes early, do the TSA dance, wait for my bags, etc. I show up, load and pre-flight the airplane, the family shows up, loads up, and away we go.

That all talks about "day of". Not the day of, there's a ton of time on ongoing currency flying, maintenance coordination, getting your medical exam, periodic flight reviews or advanced ratings, etc. If I spend 150 hours flying in a year, I probably spend 2-4x that on ground-based flying-related activities. We landed late last night and I sent the family home while I stayed behind to start an oil change before heading home and into work this morning. Before I fly next, I'll have to do the second half of the oil change. Not exactly glamorous. (Of course, you can pay someone to do all this, but I'm morally opposed to that. ;) )

I feel fortunate that we are in a financial position to fly without sweating the costs too much. We enjoy it and it adds substantially to our lives. I can readily recommend that you go take an introductory lesson at a local flight school and see if you think you'll enjoy doing it. Many people get to the point where they solo (fly an airplane around the airport traffic pattern 3x without an instructor onboard) and then hang it up. They're a pilot at that point and that's enough. Others go on to get the full certification. Some then stop. Others go on to buy or build their own airplane and make decades of family memories where aviation is a part. I feel happy to be in that last, tiniest category, even though it has added years to my required working career, being the second largest expense category (behind only housing in a HCoL area).

[undercover]

If you just want to fly, look up paramotoring. About $1k for training, $10k for the setup, and nearly limitless places you can fly.

[sokoloff]

I was an airplane fanatic as a kid. Still am to some degree. I starting taking flying lessons at 14 using money earned cutting grass. I got my license at 17 and was dreaming about a flying career. Due to marginal eyesight, color blindness, and lack of funding for more intensive training, this dream did not happen.

Eyesight requirements are not particularly strict. 3rd class medical (what you need for private flying) is 20/40 corrected distant vision and 20/40 corrected near [16 inches] vision.

Color blindness, you can either pass the Ishihara or Dvorine tests or take a test of demonstrated ability (ability to pick out red vs green lights displayed from the ATC tower, typically) for unrestricted medical, or can have a limited medical [perhaps blocking you from night flying]. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2012/january/01/answers-for-pilots-color-vision

Lack of funding, sadly, there is not such an easy answer for.

[shunkman]

I was an airplane fanatic as a kid. Still am to some degree. I starting taking flying lessons at 14 using money earned cutting grass. I got my license at 17 and was dreaming about a flying career. Due to marginal eyesight, color blindness, and lack of funding for more intensive training, this dream did not happen.

Eyesight requirements are not particularly strict. 3rd class medical (what you need for private flying) is 20/40 corrected distant vision and 20/40 corrected near [16 inches] vision.

Color blindness, you can either pass the Ishihara or Dvorine tests or take a test of demonstrated ability (ability to pick out red vs green lights displayed from the ATC tower, typically) for unrestricted medical, or can have a limited medical [perhaps blocking you from night flying]. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2012/january/01/answers-for-pilots-color-vision

Lack of funding, sadly, there is not such an easy answer for.

I'm going back to the late 1970's and early 1980s. Back then, a well paying pilot position (military, airline pilot, etc.) required 20/20 uncorrected and no color deficiency.  I did pass the demonstrated ability color test and much later I had lasik surgery. Today, I still cannot spare the money for flying if I intend to reach my FIRE goal.

[Goldielocks]

It is an expensive hobby, but part of the mustachian philosophy is spending mindfully, not necessarily in the cheapest possible way, but in whatever way brings the most value.

I've looked into getting a private pilot license a few times, and just couldn't justify the cost, but if you have the money and desire, go for it!
Do include the cost of plane rental for all of the flight hours you'll need, including the additional cost for the IFR rating if you want that too.

Yeah, nope.  It's $12k!!    Twelve Thousand Dollars.  THOUSANDS of DOLLARS.   For an experience...you don't even get transportation to work or a place to live out of this...    This is something for when you FIRE.   In the meantime, just take ground school and  / or glider lessons...

$12k at 5% per year (net of inflation), for 25 years grows to $40k in today's dollars, for some, that is FIRE happening 1 year early.   Is your own pilot's license really worth an extra year of working to you?

Maybe post a case study....

[May2030]

Got a PPL for ultralights a few years back and bought one. Going solo for the first time is amazing and  it was fun. However after a while I realised it was the challenge of getting the licence that made  it interesting and so without a challenge I sold it.

Also did paragliding with the intention of going paramotoring. Paragliding is the best thing I have ever done. However it is very dangerous with mistakes seriously punished. In the 2 years I did it a couple of people died and several including myself (own fault) were quite badly injured.

My Father who was a aviation enthusiast all his life  was the nearest to a Moustachion pilot as in retirement he got a little job at a local flying club. Ended up going flying with pilots who wanted some company as I its more interesting to go with a passenger. He had all the fun without any of the cost or the need to pass exams. They would often let him do the flying. Then he got into helicopters and blew all the money he saved on having lessons for fun.:-) Always found it quite funny that my Dad used to hang out with so many millionaires.

[goalphish2002]

I have read the newer sport pilot license is about half the cost.  This seems to be the cheapest route at about 5K.  The planes are cheaper to rent and there are no physicals.  Does anyone have experience with this?  I will say the challenge of the training and the experience is part of what I find alluring.     

[seattleite]

Flying is definitely an expensive hobby, and has seemingly getting more and more expensive over the decades (taking inflation into account). But the alphabet groups like EAA and AOPA have been working for years with the FAA to bring down costs and I think we are finally seeing the beginning of that.

The Sport Pilot license is what most people who just want to fly really should get and it's now a lot easier to get one of those.

And as others have said the Part 103 Ultralight flying is definitely more mustachian (if you could possibly call flying for fun mustachian), but might require most up front investment since you generally can't rent these airplanes for solo flight.

That all said, I believe we are on the cusp of flying becoming *a lot* cheaper and *a lot* safer. A big part of flying is engine management and if you own a plane, overhauling the engine or replacing it after a number of hours of flight. Electric planes will have a motor that won't fail (albeit with not very good range, but that doesn't matter with training) and won't need to be replaced and will be cheaper from the start anyways. Ok, I just inserted this paragraph because this is all exciting to me, but yeah, probably need to wait another decade for it.

Back to reality, here are more mustachian ways to scratch the flying itch:

1. Start training as a Sport Pilot and then stop after your first solo. You might be able to accomplish this for a couple thousand dollars. Once you solo, you are a pilot, albeit a pilot who isn't legal to fly anywhere, but a pilot nonetheless. And it's an awesome accomplishment. You can always pick up later, but you at least will have accomplished this feat.

2. Build an airplane. Yes, sounds crazy. But it's something that can scratch the itch to be a part of aviation without setting your wallet on fire. You can buy a kit a subkit at a time. Or you can build from plans and go even cheaper. The benefits are that you can fill a decade or two of your life in the hobby without spending too much money, meet some really great people along the way, learn some really cool skills, and in the end maybe have your own airplane that you'll be able to fly. The variety (and cost) of these airplanes is vast. You can start with something cheap and small like the Legal Eagle Ultralight or crazy fast and expensive like the turbine-powered Lancair Evolution.

If mustachianism is only about being frugal then it's hard to imagine anything in aviation as mustachian, but if mustachianism is also about acquiring useful skills and having a DIY attitude then there's a lot in aviation that can be done in a mustachian way.

[inline five]

The sport pilot license is kinda a waste of money IMO. The incremental cost of the PPL isn't much more and gives you so much more flexibility.

It's a nice hobby if you live out in the boonies and cost of ownership is low. Look into a local flying club, they are traditionally a lot cheaper.

You can rent a C152 for around $100 and instructor should be around $40, if you study and have a man brain as I like to call it you can do it for way under $12k. If you don't have good hand eye coordination and aren't mechanically inclined it will take a lot longer and may not even be possible. Roughly half the students I saw at a career school never finished their private.

Budget several thousand a year to stay proficient. The accident rate is quite high in general aviation because the equipment and training/proficiency is sub standard to airlines.

[WildJager]

Another thought if you're someone who considers airplanes too expensive and ultralights too risky, are sailplanes.  After training you can rent a sailplane and a lift for much cheaper than an actual plane, but you also don't have to front the cost of an ultralight (sometimes you can rent them, but that's a bit hard to find as others have mentioned).  Gliding is a very fun form of flying, and while I don't know the licensing limitations (I've only glided a few times) there is room to bring a second person onboard depending on the glider. 

[hoping2retire35]

As others said, waaayy to prohibitively expensive. I have looked extensively at this and it would be about $100k to get the license and a plane I wanted. Maybe $50k If I were to go the cheap end, but then I wouldn't use it as much. In all, for what I would want to do the most, a powered paraglider is probably the best route, however...

If one of my kids showed a strong interest in wanting to do this as a career it would be a way to help them with the enormous about of debt (by not having to pay for hours) and me getting an excuse to explore this hobby. That is if I want to spend $100k on their education and job training...

[sokoloff]

You can also look into Civil Air Patrol, USCG Auxiliary Air Wing, volunteering to fly right-seat for various charity flights that pilots do (Pilots-n-Paws, Angel Flight, etc), to get some flight time in exchange for sweat or time equity.

Getting a second job at a flight school might be another way to get reduced price flight time.

[Capt j-rod]

If you really want to attempt this then start hanging around the local small airport. I made some awesome life long friends. Get a side job as a lineman pulling out planes, fueling, wash and wax, and mowing. I did it when I was younger. A few old timers had their own planes and were instructors. I washed, waxed, and treated them and their planes like royalty. They would take me up in their spare time. It took forever, but I finally got in the time. The plane was free and half the time I couldn't even pay for gas. I made a few bucks on the side, learned a lifetime of knowledge, met some great guys, flew some awesome planes, and got a license. I was offered one of their planes for a steal... Every time I crunched the numbers it was a disaster. I still can go flying with a phone call, and I still BS with the guys at the airport. As a "fun" hobby that I could finance? NOPE!!!

[T-Money$]

To expand on what others have said, a lot of people own aircraft and want to fly with a friend (because their wives no longer will fly with them!).  This is a really cheap way to continue flying after you get a pilot license, and it is usually more fun flying with someone else too.

Both of my parents were alcoholics and I was an only child.  I knew of no stability, proper family roles, honesty or compassion growing up.  Getting interested in aviation filled a massive void that needed to be filled -- at airports I saw people in uniforms (easily identifiable), following rules, having precise job descriptions and doing their jobs relatively stress free.

I remember going up to the air traffic control tower at LaGuardia and watching controllers that were very busy and on their toes, yet enjoying their job and not having much stress (or at least, having the good kind of stress). 

Flying filled that void in my childhood and gave me something I could accelerate at and hope for the future.  Regardless of the cost, for me it was something I needed -- I'm glad I had the chance to pursue it.  Although it was much cheaper in the 1990s.

Since then I've found a lot of ego in the aviation business and unfortunately the hiring process seems to be a exercise in how to subvert meritocracy, but if you really want to do something and will get lifelong joy out of it...can you really put a price on it?

[dycker1978]

How can this even be being considered on an ERE thread.  This is $12k upfront and many thousands a year to maintain.  This is not mustachian, this is crazy.

[Capt j-rod]

Can I put a price on it? Yes... It was outrageous. 100ll was $5+ a gallon. Insurance, rental, etc... This is after I had a license. Do I still go up a few times a year? Yes. I throw my buddy $50 and make a day of it. There are other things I found in life to do. Biking, canoeing, camping, hiking, gardening, fishing, and hanging out with friends and my family. Mustaches and airplanes don't fit.

[calimom]

OP on another thread you started you mentioned you only put a minimal amount into your 401k, had $50k in student loan debt, had $78k in mortgage debt and had a toddler. So no, I don't think you should drop $12k and more for a fun and unnecessary hobby.

+1

[BlueMR2]

Did the pilot thing.  Some of the most fun times of my life.

The initial training is especially expensive (like buying a car), but after that it settles down to being comparable to pretty much any other adventure hobby (cheaper than racing, comparable to SCUBA, on par with shooting sports).  I started doing it before I really knew better (I was already a high savings rate relatively speaking), but it replaced my racing hobby, so I came out ahead.

Really had hoped to use it for travel, but I'm bored with travel.  Not worth staying in the flying club unless actually traveling (monthly costs).  Switched to rentals, and then the local rental place decided to decrease the hours to where it's not workable tor me to fly with them (they're basically only open while I'm at work).  I hope to get back at it some day, but in the meantime we've shifted the hobby funds over to SCUBA.

[Syonyk]

<.<

Uh, private pilot here.  So, yeah.  Not the cheapest hobby I've ever had.  That said, I got my license in grad school, so you can do it cheaply enough.

A few thoughts/comments/etc, in response to various things in this thread:

The "If it flies, floats, or f****" comment is close, but "renting" isn't the best option.  A good flying club is.  It's cheaper than renting, by a lot, because you're expected to put in time and labor as well as money, and it's not for profit - the point of the club is to maintain the fleet and have some spare cash for upgrading things (we're in the process of getting rid of the vacuum gyros and replacing them with either Aspen units or Garmin G5s, because for about 2 rebuilds on a gyro AI, you can replace the whole thing with a unit with battery backup).  I'm part of a flying club that has 7 airplanes, ~105 members.  We show up to help with the plane washes, chipping ice out of the taxiway in the winter, people help with oil changes, and for the avionics upgrades, there are a few retired guys who are happy to show up and basically dismantle the entire interior of an airplane before the A&P goes at the installation.  The cost for all of this is $60/mo plus $60 "use it or lose it" against flying.  The goal here is to encourage people to fly each month, at least.  If I fly, that $60 goes against my flight time - I only pay it if I don't fly at all.  And the winter is reasonable in terms of having a few months lumped together, because January out here is pretty much "Nope" for flying.

In exchange for time/labor/etc, my flight costs are quite low.  A 172 is $72/hr wet, a 182 is around $110/hr wet (that covers fuel as well).  The 182s are a slightly better deal for long trips.

Now, in terms of traveling - if you do travel a bit, and are flexible on your schedules (and/or have your instrument rating), the cost for a family of 3 or 4 to fly Cessna Air is comparable to commercial.

For a concrete example here: I live around Boise.  I have a brother in Phoenix.  I have a wife and daughter (there is one part of the "flies, floats, f****" bit I disagree with...).

For the three of us to fly from Boise to Phoenix round trip (Southwest, who I prefer, and isn't particularly expensive) is around $1700 - and we're looking at 5-6 hours total travel time, which practically means 7-8 hours (with the 2 hours TSA nonsense).  Plus, for me, an hour to get to the commercial airport instead of 20 minutes to get to the local one.

For me to fly that in a 182, at a 144kt 75% cruise, I'm looking at 4.5 hours in flight (nonstop), though I'd probably make a potty stop halfway there.  And, for... oh, about 10 hours on the hobbs, $1160 (for the nice traveling 182).  Wet.

Driving, I'm looking at 15+ hours, which is not a one day trip with a toddler, so add at least a hotel.  It's certainly cheaper, but I do prefer flying.

And I can carry a family of 4, which is even more expensive commercial ($2300).  I can also fly from general aviation airport to general aviation airport, which saves a lot of time over flying from commercial to commercial (there are little airports pretty much everywhere).

I'm not going to weigh in on a private license for the particular OP in question.  If the observation about other debt and such is accurate, well, probably not a good idea now.

But in terms of being a useful way to travel around, if you're willing to be flexible with regards to weather, for 2+ people, it's faster than commercial for a lot of trips, and for 4 people?  Hard to beat it.

And, admittedly, I live in a place where I have access to a cheap flying club.  And the planes are focused a bit more on back country flying and cheap ownership (no retracts).  But I consider it well worth the cost in time and money.  Being able to fly yourself around is awesome.  Being able to fly into little back country strips is pretty cool.  And, I mean, I'll even go flying to play Ingress ("Planegressing") if there's a good excuse and I need to fly for the month.  I flew with someone a few weeks ago to mess around with the concept.  We're going to do it more, because it's a great excuse to fly.

In terms of up front costs, $12k is absurd.  You should be able to do it for a lot less.  For my flying club, if you figure flight training in the 152 ($60/hr) for 50h (minimum is 40h but most people get their license around 45-50), 20h of an instructor at $40/hr, and 6 months of base fees, you're looking at a hair over $4k.  Plus ground study materials and a headset and such, $4500-$5k is totally doable at my club.  And then $1500/yr, with 12 hours of 152 time included in that.  I think my total for the private was closer to $5k, but that was renting at much higher hourly rate because I hadn't discovered the joys of flying clubs back then.

If your goal is just to be in the air (instead of traveling)?  The recommendation for sailplanes is spot on.  I've got 1.5 hours in a glider (properly fun intro flight), and it was the most fun flying I've done.  Feeling the air, constantly turning or maneuvering, hunting thermals, thermaling with hawks... absolutely awesome.  Not a great way to get from point A to point B, but a super cheap way to be in the air and flying.

Is it extreme Mustachian?  Certainly not.  That said, I'm not nearly as hardcore as plenty of other people here - I keep the lifestyle expansion down, but we're willing to spend money on things we value (and traveling is one of those things).  But a lot of the costs being thrown around are simply wrong, if you can find a good flying club.

[Goldielocks]

Okay,

This post now boils down to... "Should I spend $12k on fun?"...   With some nice posts that going through the PPL is indeed fun.
A few posters and OP have suggested fun alternatives that are only $5k-$6k..   (LOL!)

What percent of your free income (Net income minus housing, transportation, food, and utilities) does $12k represent?
Do you have any student loans or other debt?

[Syonyk]

This post now boils down to... "Should I spend $12k on fun?"...   With some nice posts that going through the PPL is indeed fun.
A few posters and OP have suggested fun alternatives that are only $5k-$6k..   (LOL!)

I don't agree.

I offered a direct comparison for a family of 3 traveling a reasonable distance (650nm) that's quite the cost savings over flying commercial...

And I can take Cessnas into lots of great places that take me many hours to drive.

[pbkmaine]

OP on another thread you started you mentioned you only put a minimal amount into your 401k, had $50k in student loan debt, had $78k in mortgage debt and had a toddler. So no, I don't think you should drop $12k and more for a fun and unnecessary hobby.

+1

+2

[Optimiser]

This post now boils down to... "Should I spend $12k on fun?"...   With some nice posts that going through the PPL is indeed fun.
A few posters and OP have suggested fun alternatives that are only $5k-$6k..   (LOL!)

I don't agree.

I offered a direct comparison for a family of 3 traveling a reasonable distance (650nm) that's quite the cost savings over flying commercial...

And I can take Cessnas into lots of great places that take me many hours to drive.

The title of this thread is "Becoming a Pilot for Fun." You have made a case that it is reasonably priced compared to commercial travel, but that doesn't seem to be the OP's intention.

[Goldielocks]

This post now boils down to... "Should I spend $12k on fun?"...   With some nice posts that going through the PPL is indeed fun.
A few posters and OP have suggested fun alternatives that are only $5k-$6k..   (LOL!)

I don't agree.

I offered a direct comparison for a family of 3 traveling a reasonable distance (650nm) that's quite the cost savings over flying commercial...

And I can take Cessnas into lots of great places that take me many hours to drive.

LOL,  my dad has now owned at least 3 personal aircraft, over the years.  I have taken some of those vacations  you describe with him in the past, and honestly,  if you don't have the plane, you go somewhere else equally nice, but different.   AND, of course, once you land you have to get a taxi or a very long walk to anywhere, unless your goal was a fly-in club event, or pie at the airport coffee shop.  DS is now taking his PPL, and there is no way I would ever pay for it, or let him pay for it.   My dad is doing so, as a way to continue to be involved in the airplanes , and his grandson's life, now that he has given up his own license.

OTOH, DH's uncle, who rebuilds beaver aircraft and flies bushpilot for a living...  my flyover over a herd of caribou, to take 2 hours, to save 12++ hours of driving was worth it.  But of course, he earns a living doing that and there were three paying passengers at the time...

[WildJager]

OTOH, DH's uncle, who rebuilds beaver aircraft and flies bushpilot for a living...  my flyover over a herd of caribou, to take 2 hours, to save 12++ hours of driving was worth it.  But of course, he earns a living doing that and there were three paying passengers at the time...

I think that's the best way to fly from what I've gathered.  I want to keep flying after I FIRE, but besides ultralight dinking around doing some bush or charter flying is a good balance between getting in the seat to see the sky or spending all of your savings... to get in the seat to see the sky. 

Some might think it would get "boring" to fly predetermined routes for a job, but honestly flying aimlessly gets old after a bit.  Having a "mission" makes the effort more enjoyable.  Hence why you hear of contrived vacations or the $100 hamburger... you basically need something to do to get motivated to go.  Having someone else pay you for your "mission" is a pretty sweet deal in my opinion.

[Goldielocks]

Nah,  the better way is the volunteer pilots for "angels flight" who fly cancer kids into summer camp in California...

[inline five]

OTOH, DH's uncle, who rebuilds beaver aircraft and flies bushpilot for a living...  my flyover over a herd of caribou, to take 2 hours, to save 12++ hours of driving was worth it.  But of course, he earns a living doing that and there were three paying passengers at the time...

I think that's the best way to fly from what I've gathered.  I want to keep flying after I FIRE, but besides ultralight dinking around doing some bush or charter flying is a good balance between getting in the seat to see the sky or spending all of your savings... to get in the seat to see the sky. 

Some might think it would get "boring" to fly predetermined routes for a job, but honestly flying aimlessly gets old after a bit.  Having a "mission" makes the effort more enjoyable.  Hence why you hear of contrived vacations or the $100 hamburger... you basically need something to do to get motivated to go.  Having someone else pay you for your "mission" is a pretty sweet deal in my opinion.

It does get boring. But at least the pay is good and time off means you're 1/2 retired even as a full timer. Great job, bad career.

[Uturn]

I have a PPL.  I got it many, many years ago when I was chasing status.  Except in very few circumstances, there is no ROI in getting a private license.  Yes, it was fun and it was challenging.  I do wish that I could afford to fly.  I do see the appeal.  However, if you are at all interested in FIRE......

[Syonyk]

Again, I really don't see a PPL and (ideally) an instrument rating as severely anti-FIRE. It depends on your income, obviously, but my example above on transportation costs and times for a realistic trip are worth considering.

It gets even better if you get an autogas STC. :)

[inline five]

Again, I really don't see a PPL and (ideally) an instrument rating as severely anti-FIRE. It depends on your income, obviously, but my example above on transportation costs and times for a realistic trip are worth considering.

It gets even better if you get an autogas STC. :)

Yep if you way overinflate the cost of tickets and have access to a fairly low cost rental, then the numbers might be a little closer.

That being said in no way is taking a small airplane on a vacation a frugal way of spending ones money.

[BlueMR2]

Yep if you way overinflate the cost of tickets and have access to a fairly low cost rental, then the numbers might be a little closer.

That being said in no way is taking a small airplane on a vacation a frugal way of spending ones money.

You don't have to overinflate anything if straight up comparing single trips.  If you're going places that aren't main route, the commercial costs are ridiculous.  Going from my town to where the in-laws live (for 2 of us) was going to be $900 commercial.  We did it total cost for $360, and were able to take 6 people instead of just 2!  (gotta love the PA32-300!). 

Where the facepunch and math take over are in all the training and currency hours to allow one to take that trip in the first place!

And then there's the "when things go wrong".  Weather forecasters totally blew it one day.  A 0% chance of rain day turned into thunder storms that hung over the area for next couple of days.  I had to get home, so had to abandon the airplane a couple hours from home.  So, add in a one-way car rental.  Then, I did not have the time to go recover the airplane myself, so dropped another $1000 on a couple other people to fly another airplane out and retrieve it...

The way I look at flying (just like other high cost activities like racing, etc) is that you should be FI for your normal expenses and then still keep working a solid job to pay for the flying.  If you're RE, you'd better have a *ton* of extra money laying around to do it and cover the surprise expenses.  If you're not yet FI (outside of the flying), yeah, I'll facepunch too.  As long as you don't own an airplane it's relatively easy to get out of in most cases if you suddenly lose your job.  Some clubs you have to find someone to buy you out, but typically you just give them a month's notice, and you'll get your deposit back and be on your way (and the insurance is typically through the club too).  Rentals you just stop flying (and drop your rental insurance).

[Lance Burkhart]

I got my Private Pilot License about 8 years ago.  In total it took 8 months (flying 4 days a week) and around $12,000.

What have I done with it since?  Honestly, nothing.  I've made a few plans to fly here or there with friends or to meet up with friends who have moved, but every single time weather has been an issue on the day I planned to fly, so I cancel the flight.

Also, since then, I've gotten married and had 2 kids.  I currently have other things to put my money towards.  Maybe in the future I'll pick it back up; but at $200 an hour to rent a C-172, and a mandatory rent every 30 days to keep the rental insurance up to date, no thanks, I'd much rather spend that time with my family.

However, I will say it was an amazing experience and I'm glad I did it.  If I was still single, I'd probably have my IFR rating by now.

I've had a PPL for 10 years and never fly.  I am not current.  I have not done my bi-annual flight review in 6-8 years.  I have 3 kids now.  Your experience matches mine (and my dad's and my grandfather's). I just finished building a 12' wooden boat and will fly on the water.  If there's interest I'll start a thread on this.

To the OP, depending on your local area, having a PPL may not be enough.  California has many clear days and usually good flying weather.  Weather changes much more quickly in other states and can be much more dangerous.  You may have to worry about icing, thunderstorms, and other inclement weather. 

Flying single-engine is dangerous and expensive.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  I've known PhDs in physics who've killed themselves, another couple with a lot of flight hours just died out here, my dad was co-pilot in a Cessna 172 and had to make an emergency beach landing.  The next time the pilot went up in the same airplane was his last. 

[inline five]

I got my Private Pilot License about 8 years ago.  In total it took 8 months (flying 4 days a week) and around $12,000.

What have I done with it since?  Honestly, nothing.  I've made a few plans to fly here or there with friends or to meet up with friends who have moved, but every single time weather has been an issue on the day I planned to fly, so I cancel the flight.

Also, since then, I've gotten married and had 2 kids.  I currently have other things to put my money towards.  Maybe in the future I'll pick it back up; but at $200 an hour to rent a C-172, and a mandatory rent every 30 days to keep the rental insurance up to date, no thanks, I'd much rather spend that time with my family.

However, I will say it was an amazing experience and I'm glad I did it.  If I was still single, I'd probably have my IFR rating by now.

I've had a PPL for 10 years and never fly.  I am not current.  I have not done my bi-annual flight review in 6-8 years.  I have 3 kids now.  Your experience matches mine (and my dad's and my grandfather's). I just finished building a 12' wooden boat and will fly on the water.  If there's interest I'll start a thread on this.

To the OP, depending on your local area, having a PPL may not be enough.  California has many clear days and usually good flying weather.  Weather changes much more quickly in other states and can be much more dangerous.  You may have to worry about icing, thunderstorms, and other inclement weather. 

Flying single-engine is dangerous and expensive.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  I've known PhDs in physics who've killed themselves, another couple with a lot of flight hours just died out here, my dad was co-pilot in a Cessna 172 and had to make an emergency beach landing.  The next time the pilot went up in the same airplane was his last.

There is a reason the Bonanza is known as the "doctor killer".

After taking a break from small airplanes I went up in one several years ago. I can't believe I spent so many hours in those things. Loud, cramped, hot, cold, bumpy, complete lack of redundancy, zero performance capability, just not enjoyable at all.

[inline five]

You don't have to overinflate anything if straight up comparing single trips.  If you're going places that aren't main route, the commercial costs are ridiculous.  Going from my town to where the in-laws live (for 2 of us) was going to be $900 commercial.  We did it total cost for $360, and were able to take 6 people instead of just 2!  (gotta love the PA32-300!). 

If you only spent $360 on a round trip Cherokee rental you could've driven it for about $30. For maybe an extra hour or two total travel time in most instances.

Airplanes are time machines. Buying time costs money.

[Syonyk]

Depends heavily on where you are. In a lot of the west "Can't get there from here" is a thing.

[Lance Burkhart]

I got my Private Pilot License about 8 years ago.  In total it took 8 months (flying 4 days a week) and around $12,000.

What have I done with it since?  Honestly, nothing.  I've made a few plans to fly here or there with friends or to meet up with friends who have moved, but every single time weather has been an issue on the day I planned to fly, so I cancel the flight.

Also, since then, I've gotten married and had 2 kids.  I currently have other things to put my money towards.  Maybe in the future I'll pick it back up; but at $200 an hour to rent a C-172, and a mandatory rent every 30 days to keep the rental insurance up to date, no thanks, I'd much rather spend that time with my family.

However, I will say it was an amazing experience and I'm glad I did it.  If I was still single, I'd probably have my IFR rating by now.

I've had a PPL for 10 years and never fly.  I am not current.  I have not done my bi-annual flight review in 6-8 years.  I have 3 kids now.  Your experience matches mine (and my dad's and my grandfather's). I just finished building a 12' wooden boat and will fly on the water.  If there's interest I'll start a thread on this.

To the OP, depending on your local area, having a PPL may not be enough.  California has many clear days and usually good flying weather.  Weather changes much more quickly in other states and can be much more dangerous.  You may have to worry about icing, thunderstorms, and other inclement weather. 

Flying single-engine is dangerous and expensive.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  I've known PhDs in physics who've killed themselves, another couple with a lot of flight hours just died out here, my dad was co-pilot in a Cessna 172 and had to make an emergency beach landing.  The next time the pilot went up in the same airplane was his last.

There is a reason the Bonanza is known as the "doctor killer".

After taking a break from small airplanes I went up in one several years ago. I can't believe I spent so many hours in those things. Loud, cramped, hot, cold, bumpy, complete lack of redundancy, zero performance capability, just not enjoyable at all.

Guys at work build RVs and there are definitely some in the aerobatic, high performance category (all the faster to kill yourself).  The things are absolute money furnaces and they all have to work 10-15 years longer more more to support their hobby.  By then, they're too old to enjoy it.

Another guy at work is building an aerobatic aluminum/plywood airplane.  It'll take him 10 years based on his progress.  While it's cool to build your own airplane, it's going to cost him in the mid-to-high five figures.  He flies aerobatic already, has no kids, and probably makes $200k a year. 

Flying is a money furnace. 

If anyone on here has a need for speed, start skating downhill or get a mountain bike or an iceboat or skis/snowboard.  Anything is cheaper/safer than an airplane. 

[sokoloff]

There is a reason the Bonanza is known as the "doctor killer".

IMO, more doctors have killed Bonanzas than Bonanzas have killed doctors.

[inline five]

Guys at work build RVs and there are definitely some in the aerobatic, high performance category (all the faster to kill yourself).  The things are absolute money furnaces and they all have to work 10-15 years longer more more to support their hobby.  By then, they're too old to enjoy it.

Another guy at work is building an aerobatic aluminum/plywood airplane.  It'll take him 10 years based on his progress.  While it's cool to build your own airplane, it's going to cost him in the mid-to-high five figures.  He flies aerobatic already, has no kids, and probably makes $200k a year. 

Flying is a money furnace. 

If anyone on here has a need for speed, start skating downhill or get a mountain bike or an iceboat or skis/snowboard.  Anything is cheaper/safer than an airplane.

Just buy a Citabria for $30k.