Author Topic: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old  (Read 5232 times)

FINate

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2020, 03:25:30 PM »
I've been involved in hiring for a couple QA's over the past 6 months. I can't see someone with the OP's history getting past even HR screening. A typical entry level QA:

1. early 20's
2. heavily introverted
3. happy sitting alone for long periods of time
4. takes direction well
5. obsessed with details
6. likes pushing the boundaries of systems
7. (preferred) knows to code, but lazy, a fan of test automation tools

That just doesn't match a 40 year old sales guy with a graduate education and prior career in the military. The role probably isn't a fit on skills, personality or culture. He'll be undervalued relative to prior comp, has a good chance of underperforming while causing team disruption and will probably move on as soon there's experience. It's a bad risk as the hiring manager.



What might convince me otherwise

1. The candidate's prior career gives expertise in the business domain I am now serving
2. Referral from someone I know is an A player, even better if they are on the team
3. An ability to articulate genuine enthusiasm for growth, into meeting the needs of my team
4. Strong proof that a big personality won't upset team balance. I've seen too many developers shut down as soon as someone is a little loud. This is a big risk with the OP - he's going to look and act like a leader, especially compared to the typical IT person.

Ah yes, the classic age discrimination aspect of tech.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it's a thing in tech. Yet still shocking to see it, as above, stated so plainly. Most people are more subtle since it's illegal (40+ is a protected class in the US) and just icky. Most of my best engineers (QA and SWE) didn't fit one or more of these attributes.

FIPurpose

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2020, 04:24:49 PM »
I've worked in QA groups that are only like 30% programmers and 60% manual testers. Those are the perfect kind of QA groups for newbies to slowly work their way into a programming role.

ctuser1

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2020, 05:59:41 PM »
There are some unstated reasons I recommended that OP pursues the PM role.

Ageism is real, and will affect him quite a bit if he wanted to become a developer or a QA Engineer. It is not impossible to get over it, but it will be a headwind.

For the PM role, however, a sort of ageism will actually act as a tailwind for the OP.

These are not things people generally speak out loud, so let me see if I can phrase it delicately... Most tech teams in the coasts have a lot of Asians in the team - specifically Indians and Chinese. They have a much more deferential attitude towards older people. As a PM, someone's job is to chase people and generally get work done by them (i.e. be a giant pain in the **** for everyone). As an older (white?) dude, OP will be treated much more deferentially by this crowd than, say if OP was a 20yo fresh out of college face.

Please don't shoot the messenger. I am just trying to relay what I seem to see around me, with an aim to be helpful. I don't condone ageism any more than the dude in the next cubicle.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2020, 06:32:19 PM »
OP here. 

Ok ok ok...I get it.  I really do appreciate all the candid advice.  Probably not the right path for me. The PMP route might be an option, will do some reading on this tomorrow.  Would welcome ideas on where to take my career from here, happy to answer questions. Otherwise, no sense telling me how programming isn’t the path for me! LOL.

ctuser1

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2020, 06:50:29 PM »
OP here. 

Ok ok ok...I get it.  I really do appreciate all the candid advice.  Probably not the right path for me. The PMP route might be an option, will do some reading on this tomorrow.  Would welcome ideas on where to take my career from here, happy to answer questions. Otherwise, no sense telling me how programming isn’t the path for me! LOL.

I am not sure anyone intends to tell you the bolded portion in an absolute way.

Let's say you spend six months to a year and find you are really good at programming (warning: it will take several months of frustration to get to that point even if you have excellent aptitude). In that case, programming is definitely the right path for you. There is a massive shortage of *good* programmers, and if you can convince hiring managers that you are an excellent programmer, albeit one with an unconventional background - then you will get hired, maybe after a bunch of rejections.

What I would recommend is that you put a foot in the industry with the path of the least resistance. Given your background, I think that would be to do a PMP and get a PM's job. Once in a job, I am sure you can try to learn coding in the side and see if that is right for you. In fact, you will have far better sense of direction of what to try and learn.

I just don't think it is a good idea for you to sit at home for a year, spend hours and hours every day and find out the programming is not really your thing!! There are lower risk avenues - that's all!!



nirodha

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2020, 07:27:26 PM »
Don't confuse a frank conversation of the industry with hiring criteria approved by HR.

You've got a field where the number of workers is doubling something like every 6 years. A large portion of team leads and first level mangers are under 30.  Age discrimination emerges from the system. Even when an organization is actively seeking diversity, the emphasis will be on gender and race.

No one ever says "that guy is too old." Rather, it is "I'm not sure he's a culture fit" which could be code for *he didn't get the fall guys reference, is he going to game with us?* Or - "He didn't listen" which could mean *I am intimidated by the prospect of supervising someone 15 years my senior*.

Someone changing careers needs to make realistic assessment of the landscape as it is. Ctuser1's point about the PM role is very accurate. I got into PM in my early 20's, was not taken seriously. I picked up a PMP. It didn't help. Now that I have grey in my beard am balding a little, a room automatically listens. I haven't been to a PMI event in 10 years. It is bullshit, but also the way things work.


For the OP - If you genuinely want to program, you can overcome all this. There is always work for strong developers. You are talking a 10x multiplier in productivity when someone really gets it. That causes companies to overlook all sorts of other criteria. The transition will suck, for aforementioned reasons, but it is possible.

If the goal is money working from home though, I would think you could do better trying to make a lateral shift, leveraging

1. Relationship skills
2. Expertise in your current industry / profession
3. Past military experience (clearance?)

That leads me to roles like - project manager, account manager, product owner, business analyst, scrum master - anything where you are acting as the bridge between sales, business and IT. Those roles can pay as good or better than development. Your age is an asset there. I think you might still encounter some minor travel, but nothing like a typical sales role. IMO the script would be something - "I'd like to ensure commitments made during the sales cycle are delivered during implementation. I want to better understand the challenges that arise and help solve them. I can maintain the focus on customer needs and help teams avoid getting mired in technical details."

You could probably back that story by picking up agile certs (scrum.org, pretty sure they are online multiple choice tests) and ride those buzzwords more easily than a PMP.

Depending how technical your current sales role is, it could be necessary to transition in two stages. First get into technical sales at a target employer, build relationships there, and then pursue the lateral shift.

Pre-covid, professional meetups are basically people trading jobs in these fields. I don't know how things are working today, unfortunately. I've seen some virtual meetups, but haven't bothered attending.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2020, 06:29:36 AM »
I somewhat did what OP is looking to do, albeit at ~33. I also had a PhD, but to most tech people the fact that it was in psychology is all they see, they aren't really aware there are quant/stats heavy sub-disciplines. I moved from a project manager in HR to a research scientist in tech within the same fortune 500 company and then transitioned that to a principal data scientist at a consulting firm. I was even offered the job of a director of data science in the tech division, over a team of 25 at another fortune 500 and turned it down. I have recruiters from Facebook and Amazon, etc. Reaching out to me very regularly, but for some reason they still want you in Cali or NYC 🤔

Just offering another perspective. Data Science is such a young field very few have traditional backgrounds and it's something you can bring to any role you have.

For example, my wife works in finance and she told me somebody she works with manually looks up over 100 mutual fund tickers on Morningstar every month to get the morningstar rating. Just for fun in like a half hour I built a script that takes in the ticker, generates the URL, goes to the URL, scrapes the html, and saves the star rating into a spreadsheet for them. So they no longer have to spend hours looking up the tickers every month. Another example, when I was a research scientist our company paid $15k a year to outsource the manual coding of open-ended surveys we conducted. In an afternoon I took a few years of previous labeling and build an ML algorithm that predicted the class with 99% accuracy. Eliminating the need for us to pay the $15k/yr to have them manually coded.

So much automation and data analysis that could be done in sales to get your feet wet and see if it's something that may be worth pursuing further. Could you generate a script that sends you a weekly email letting you know the last time you contacted each of your clients, etc.? These are just ideas to where you could integrate programming into your current job, so when you try to get a new one you can use those as "work examples" of programming experience.

Domain expertise is extremely important in data science too.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 06:43:03 AM by mizzourah2006 »

jrhampt

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2020, 08:35:28 AM »
I somewhat did what OP is looking to do, albeit at ~33. I also had a PhD, but to most tech people the fact that it was in psychology is all they see, they aren't really aware there are quant/stats heavy sub-disciplines. I moved from a project manager in HR to a research scientist in tech within the same fortune 500 company and then transitioned that to a principal data scientist at a consulting firm. I was even offered the job of a director of data science in the tech division, over a team of 25 at another fortune 500 and turned it down. I have recruiters from Facebook and Amazon, etc. Reaching out to me very regularly, but for some reason they still want you in Cali or NYC 🤔

Just offering another perspective. Data Science is such a young field very few have traditional backgrounds and it's something you can bring to any role you have.

For example, my wife works in finance and she told me somebody she works with manually looks up over 100 mutual fund tickers on Morningstar every month to get the morningstar rating. Just for fun in like a half hour I built a script that takes in the ticker, generates the URL, goes to the URL, scrapes the html, and saves the star rating into a spreadsheet for them. So they no longer have to spend hours looking up the tickers every month. Another example, when I was a research scientist our company paid $15k a year to outsource the manual coding of open-ended surveys we conducted. In an afternoon I took a few years of previous labeling and build an ML algorithm that predicted the class with 99% accuracy. Eliminating the need for us to pay the $15k/yr to have them manually coded.

So much automation and data analysis that could be done in sales to get your feet wet and see if it's something that may be worth pursuing further. Could you generate a script that sends you a weekly email letting you know the last time you contacted each of your clients, etc.? These are just ideas to where you could integrate programming into your current job, so when you try to get a new one you can use those as "work examples" of programming experience.

Domain expertise is extremely important in data science too.

This is fantastic advice and also somewhat similar to what I did...I went from a completely unrelated field to data science and started out by automating manual reports in my existing job, which freed up a ton of time for me to read tech manuals while I ran my programs.  There are so many jobs which rely on manual spreadsheets that have to be tediously updated on a regular basis, for example.  Even just learning how to record a macro in Excel and then stepping into that macro and looking at how the vba code works and making little tweaks to it is a starting place.  You'd be surprised how much you can automate once you start looking for inefficiencies.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2020, 08:54:04 AM »
I somewhat did what OP is looking to do, albeit at ~33. I also had a PhD, but to most tech people the fact that it was in psychology is all they see, they aren't really aware there are quant/stats heavy sub-disciplines. I moved from a project manager in HR to a research scientist in tech within the same fortune 500 company and then transitioned that to a principal data scientist at a consulting firm. I was even offered the job of a director of data science in the tech division, over a team of 25 at another fortune 500 and turned it down. I have recruiters from Facebook and Amazon, etc. Reaching out to me very regularly, but for some reason they still want you in Cali or NYC 🤔

Just offering another perspective. Data Science is such a young field very few have traditional backgrounds and it's something you can bring to any role you have.

For example, my wife works in finance and she told me somebody she works with manually looks up over 100 mutual fund tickers on Morningstar every month to get the morningstar rating. Just for fun in like a half hour I built a script that takes in the ticker, generates the URL, goes to the URL, scrapes the html, and saves the star rating into a spreadsheet for them. So they no longer have to spend hours looking up the tickers every month. Another example, when I was a research scientist our company paid $15k a year to outsource the manual coding of open-ended surveys we conducted. In an afternoon I took a few years of previous labeling and build an ML algorithm that predicted the class with 99% accuracy. Eliminating the need for us to pay the $15k/yr to have them manually coded.

So much automation and data analysis that could be done in sales to get your feet wet and see if it's something that may be worth pursuing further. Could you generate a script that sends you a weekly email letting you know the last time you contacted each of your clients, etc.? These are just ideas to where you could integrate programming into your current job, so when you try to get a new one you can use those as "work examples" of programming experience.

Domain expertise is extremely important in data science too.

This is fantastic advice and also somewhat similar to what I did...I went from a completely unrelated field to data science and started out by automating manual reports in my existing job, which freed up a ton of time for me to read tech manuals while I ran my programs.  There are so many jobs which rely on manual spreadsheets that have to be tediously updated on a regular basis, for example.  Even just learning how to record a macro in Excel and then stepping into that macro and looking at how the vba code works and making little tweaks to it is a starting place.  You'd be surprised how much you can automate once you start looking for inefficiencies.

Funny story with the mutual fund automation was that I originally couldn't find the star rating in the source code because it was an image, so instead I built a convolutional neural network based off of Resnet34, where the script went to the website took a screenshot of the section of the page that contained the stars, and put that image through the model to get out the prediction. I'd tested it on over 40 and it was 100% accurate, but when I found the reference to the number of stars in the html and that I could easily scrape that I figured that was a bit more foolproof.

I agree so much automation to be done in many jobs. Plus I'm sure in their CRM there is tons of data that nobody is even looking at. I know at our company outside of basic stuff none of our sales team uses the data. You could build clustering algorithms to identify like customers, build customer retention models, flight risk models, etc. A wealth of data in most CRMs that almost nobody looks at. 

And in my experience the pay is good. I had already made pretty good money before, but in ~5 years since making the transition to DS I've doubled my income and I work remotely.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 08:59:05 AM by mizzourah2006 »

DireWolf

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2020, 04:44:41 PM »
Ageism is extremely real in the field. It’s counterbalanced by the need for people that understand old systems and languages. An older hire who doesn’t have this old knowledge and experience would be at double disadvantaged. That’s not saying the right person can’t luck out and find the right situation, but just the reality that it’s an uphill battle.


trygeek

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2020, 01:23:17 PM »
I somewhat did what OP is looking to do, albeit at ~33. I also had a PhD, but to most tech people the fact that it was in psychology is all they see, they aren't really aware there are quant/stats heavy sub-disciplines. I moved from a project manager in HR to a research scientist in tech within the same fortune 500 company and then transitioned that to a principal data scientist at a consulting firm. I was even offered the job of a director of data science in the tech division, over a team of 25 at another fortune 500 and turned it down. I have recruiters from Facebook and Amazon, etc. Reaching out to me very regularly, but for some reason they still want you in Cali or NYC 🤔

Just offering another perspective. Data Science is such a young field very few have traditional backgrounds and it's something you can bring to any role you have.

For example, my wife works in finance and she told me somebody she works with manually looks up over 100 mutual fund tickers on Morningstar every month to get the morningstar rating. Just for fun in like a half hour I built a script that takes in the ticker, generates the URL, goes to the URL, scrapes the html, and saves the star rating into a spreadsheet for them. So they no longer have to spend hours looking up the tickers every month. Another example, when I was a research scientist our company paid $15k a year to outsource the manual coding of open-ended surveys we conducted. In an afternoon I took a few years of previous labeling and build an ML algorithm that predicted the class with 99% accuracy. Eliminating the need for us to pay the $15k/yr to have them manually coded.

So much automation and data analysis that could be done in sales to get your feet wet and see if it's something that may be worth pursuing further. Could you generate a script that sends you a weekly email letting you know the last time you contacted each of your clients, etc.? These are just ideas to where you could integrate programming into your current job, so when you try to get a new one you can use those as "work examples" of programming experience.

Domain expertise is extremely important in data science too.

This is fantastic advice and also somewhat similar to what I did...I went from a completely unrelated field to data science and started out by automating manual reports in my existing job, which freed up a ton of time for me to read tech manuals while I ran my programs.  There are so many jobs which rely on manual spreadsheets that have to be tediously updated on a regular basis, for example.  Even just learning how to record a macro in Excel and then stepping into that macro and looking at how the vba code works and making little tweaks to it is a starting place.  You'd be surprised how much you can automate once you start looking for inefficiencies.

Funny story with the mutual fund automation was that I originally couldn't find the star rating in the source code because it was an image, so instead I built a convolutional neural network based off of Resnet34, where the script went to the website took a screenshot of the section of the page that contained the stars, and put that image through the model to get out the prediction. I'd tested it on over 40 and it was 100% accurate, but when I found the reference to the number of stars in the html and that I could easily scrape that I figured that was a bit more foolproof.

I agree so much automation to be done in many jobs. Plus I'm sure in their CRM there is tons of data that nobody is even looking at. I know at our company outside of basic stuff none of our sales team uses the data. You could build clustering algorithms to identify like customers, build customer retention models, flight risk models, etc. A wealth of data in most CRMs that almost nobody looks at. 

And in my experience the pay is good. I had already made pretty good money before, but in ~5 years since making the transition to DS I've doubled my income and I work remotely.



What is a good way to learn the skills to get started in DS at an older age?

mizzourah2006

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2020, 02:28:31 PM »
I somewhat did what OP is looking to do, albeit at ~33. I also had a PhD, but to most tech people the fact that it was in psychology is all they see, they aren't really aware there are quant/stats heavy sub-disciplines. I moved from a project manager in HR to a research scientist in tech within the same fortune 500 company and then transitioned that to a principal data scientist at a consulting firm. I was even offered the job of a director of data science in the tech division, over a team of 25 at another fortune 500 and turned it down. I have recruiters from Facebook and Amazon, etc. Reaching out to me very regularly, but for some reason they still want you in Cali or NYC 🤔

Just offering another perspective. Data Science is such a young field very few have traditional backgrounds and it's something you can bring to any role you have.

For example, my wife works in finance and she told me somebody she works with manually looks up over 100 mutual fund tickers on Morningstar every month to get the morningstar rating. Just for fun in like a half hour I built a script that takes in the ticker, generates the URL, goes to the URL, scrapes the html, and saves the star rating into a spreadsheet for them. So they no longer have to spend hours looking up the tickers every month. Another example, when I was a research scientist our company paid $15k a year to outsource the manual coding of open-ended surveys we conducted. In an afternoon I took a few years of previous labeling and build an ML algorithm that predicted the class with 99% accuracy. Eliminating the need for us to pay the $15k/yr to have them manually coded.

So much automation and data analysis that could be done in sales to get your feet wet and see if it's something that may be worth pursuing further. Could you generate a script that sends you a weekly email letting you know the last time you contacted each of your clients, etc.? These are just ideas to where you could integrate programming into your current job, so when you try to get a new one you can use those as "work examples" of programming experience.

Domain expertise is extremely important in data science too.

This is fantastic advice and also somewhat similar to what I did...I went from a completely unrelated field to data science and started out by automating manual reports in my existing job, which freed up a ton of time for me to read tech manuals while I ran my programs.  There are so many jobs which rely on manual spreadsheets that have to be tediously updated on a regular basis, for example.  Even just learning how to record a macro in Excel and then stepping into that macro and looking at how the vba code works and making little tweaks to it is a starting place.  You'd be surprised how much you can automate once you start looking for inefficiencies.

Funny story with the mutual fund automation was that I originally couldn't find the star rating in the source code because it was an image, so instead I built a convolutional neural network based off of Resnet34, where the script went to the website took a screenshot of the section of the page that contained the stars, and put that image through the model to get out the prediction. I'd tested it on over 40 and it was 100% accurate, but when I found the reference to the number of stars in the html and that I could easily scrape that I figured that was a bit more foolproof.

I agree so much automation to be done in many jobs. Plus I'm sure in their CRM there is tons of data that nobody is even looking at. I know at our company outside of basic stuff none of our sales team uses the data. You could build clustering algorithms to identify like customers, build customer retention models, flight risk models, etc. A wealth of data in most CRMs that almost nobody looks at. 

And in my experience the pay is good. I had already made pretty good money before, but in ~5 years since making the transition to DS I've doubled my income and I work remotely.



What is a good way to learn the skills to get started in DS at an older age?

Basically what I did was tried to integrate what I learned into my job. I feel like that really helped hammer home the concepts. But as for courses I found all of these very helpful. Also, finding data you are interested in can be helpful too. I like baseball, so when I have free time I use the pybaseball api to download the statcast data and try what I've been learning, etc. with that data.

Very solid introduction into Python: https://www.udemy.com/course/complete-python-bootcamp
Tougher, but intro to python and computer science principles: https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-7
intro to python's numerical library (numpy), their dataframe library (pandas), their visualization libraries (matplotlib, seaborn, plotly, etc.), and their machine learning library (scikit-learn): https://www.udemy.com/course/python-for-data-science-and-machine-learning-bootcamp/
fairly easy intro to deep learning via fastai and Jeremy Howard: https://course.fast.ai/
Jeremy's new book: https://github.com/fastai/fastbook

I'd say the first 3 will get you to feeling competent after that I'd focus on finding something that inherently interests you and trying to use what you learned to manipulate the data and look at the results.

Another very useful tool IMO is Kaggle kernels, just to see how other people approach the same data and datasets. For example in the python for data science and machine learning bootcamp Jose uses several different datasets for his weekly lessons, like the Titanic dataset. You can go to kaggle and see tons of analyses, models, etc. built on the Titanic dataset just to see how other people are approaching the data. https://www.kaggle.com/c/titanic/notebooks

For example this person wanted to leverage the k-means clustering algorithm to investigate the data: https://www.kaggle.com/ryati131457/titanic-unsupervised-kmeans


It's definitely not easy, but IMO learning about this stuff was interesting and like I said I'd quickly try to integrate it into my work by thinking about problems at work that the things I've learned could solve or help solve.

I still am reading Arxiv articles and taking courses today years later because this stuff all moves so fast.

This is the fun stuff we're investigating at work right now :) https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.07683

Hopefully this is helpful, let me know if you have any other questions.

I also forgot to mention those udemy links can be dynamic, don't pay more than $15 for any course on udemy if you do decide to pay. If they don't appear to be less than $15 wait a few days and they will be :) If you get impatient you can shoot me a message I think I have codes from when I've paid for Jose's courses that knock it down to like $9.99 or something around that.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 02:30:14 PM by mizzourah2006 »

ender

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Re: Becoming a computer programmer at 40 years old
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2020, 04:14:58 PM »
What is a good way to learn the skills to get started in DS at an older age?

Basically what I did was tried to integrate what I learned into my job. I feel like that really helped hammer home the concepts. But as for courses I found all of these very helpful. Also, finding data you are interested in can be helpful too. I like baseball, so when I have free time I use the pybaseball api to download the statcast data and try what I've been learning, etc. with that data.

+1

One thing that a midcareer person has which others don't is the ability to know what problems to fix.

If you stay in your general area but do automation/coding types of things you can have a disproportionate impact. Some of my biggest impact projects are some of the "lamest" technology wise but have disproportionate impact when you know a domain well.