Author Topic: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)  (Read 16829 times)

Proud Foot

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2016, 08:26:17 AM »
Retirement for public employees in California is generally calculated to include OT and other comp

Have you been reading this thread?  Because previous posters have clarified that BART employees are CALPERS, and CALPERS doesn't include OT in the pension calculation. 

If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to read it.

I think the definition of "pensionable compensation" only changed for people hired after 2013: Signed into law by Governor Brown in 2012 as part of AB 340, PEPRA created a definition of “pensionable compensation” for employees hired after January 1, 2013 who qualify as new members.

https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/pensionable-compensation.pdf

In any case, we're talking about $35k of $270k here, of which $162k is OT pay at a much higher OT rate. IMO this is unreasonable.

You should be looking at even less than $35k going towards his pension.  On the $235k of wages you have $10,668 for employer portion of medicare and SS.  I don't know what BART's provided insurance is but if BART subsidizes health, and pays for Long Term Disability and Life insurance you could easily be looking at another $10k-$12k.

robartsd

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2016, 08:34:23 AM »
CA's overtime laws do allow employees and employers to come up with an agreement to work an alternate schedule without overtime which allows some workers to choose four 10-hour days instead of five 8-hour days. The exception is written such that if either the employee or the employer do not want to use the alternate schedule rules it is not allowed. Most of the time these low wage jobs also limit hours just enough to prevent the employees from qualifying for any benefits that they offer to full-time employees.

FINate

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2016, 09:30:42 AM »
Retirement for public employees in California is generally calculated to include OT and other comp

Have you been reading this thread?  Because previous posters have clarified that BART employees are CALPERS, and CALPERS doesn't include OT in the pension calculation. 

If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to read it.

I think the definition of "pensionable compensation" only changed for people hired after 2013: Signed into law by Governor Brown in 2012 as part of AB 340, PEPRA created a definition of “pensionable compensation” for employees hired after January 1, 2013 who qualify as new members.

https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/pensionable-compensation.pdf

In any case, we're talking about $35k of $270k here, of which $162k is OT pay at a much higher OT rate. IMO this is unreasonable.

BART is an independent agency with its own board of directors, so I believe if you have a beef, you need to take it up with them, not governor Brown.  You might need to modify the state and local legislation that created the semi-independent transit district.

Given they are a union shop with a lot of constraining rules, I actually observe that BART management does a pretty decent job.  It is very hard to manage and keep services going in that environment.  Also, in the public transit space, safety and fairness are higher priorities than cost.  That is just a fact of life, so sometimes there are inefficiencies. 

In terms of the cost overrun cited, if you force managers to use horrible federal funding guidelines for procurement, require compliance with state labor laws (all works must have both a licensed journeyman and apprentice, even if patching a pothole), and insist on small and disadvantaged business set asides and all the paperwork to report every hour spent, costs go up.  Gotta change the rules if you want cost efficiency to be the outcome.

Not to defend waste, but walk those shoes first before trying to say you can do better.  Also, private companies have equally bad inefficiencies I have observed. It used to be my job to find and try to correct them.  I helped ATT save $300M/yr with two months of analysis of one inefficient area.

As a non-state agency participating in Calpers, BART has their own plan, with their own terms and conditions, that Calpers prices to them. These options are priced into the benefits structure, employee contribution, etc.  That $35k is a hypothetical.  I wouldn't be surprised if the medical benefit costs alone start to approach that.  The benefits package and hiring/training costs are the real story here, not the overtime.  It creates distortions that result in rational managers staffing in this way. For all we know, the number of janitors was agreed with the union, has a hard cap, and has high absenteeism (note: that is a hypothetical, I don't know their actual status).

We could dig up the actual details and talk facts, with a bit of work, as it is public information.

Anyway, I know how complex this situation is and most people don't have a clue, they just react to headlines.

I've not blamed Brown on this issue, just pointed out that he signed a law affecting retirement calculations. On the contrary, to his credit he's tried to reign in some of the pension abuses in CA. It's been slow going, with stiff opposition from the public sector at every step. Baby steps, but progress nonetheless.

You do realize that you're excusing government incompetence by blaming government, right? It's difficult to convince people to support government funded projects if you're arguing that the buck stops nowhere, that no one should be held accountable because of rules, procedures, etc. mandated by the very government running the project.

I never said these types of project are easy, and I never claimed I could do it better - it's not my area of expertise to build bridges or big construction projects. I have, however, managed a number of teams and I would have never allowed the amount of OT that this janitor worked. I can also read and learn about the wider world and hold government to a higher standard which is demonstrably possible. There are countries that run much more efficiently than CA, Germany comes to mind as a good example.

The root cause of the excessive Bay Bridge overruns cited was political leaders selecting a bridge design primarily for it's aesthetic appeal, rather than a much cheaper utilitarian design which was also much less complex. This would have also avoided the ongoing issues with hydrogen intrusion and cracked bolts plaguing the structure. But it is also clear that CalTrans did not exercise proper oversight, and there have been no efforts even to claw back bonuses awarded to contractors for finishing early even though there are quality issues. No accountability whatsoever.

When companies are poorly run they are eventually held accountable by stockholders or the market. Inefficient companies evolve or die, and new more efficient companies start. Government does not have this same level of dynamism, so it's up to voters to bitch and complain and keep government honest. Hence this article and this thread.

accolay

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2016, 10:53:28 AM »
“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” -FDR
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/04/the-7-most-dangerous-myths-about-a-15-minimum-wage/#786564002c57
and when exactly was the last time they paid a living wage according to you?
Assuming we're going with the minimum wage, 1968 I think. I'm not giving myself enough time to find a more concrete answer for you but really,  it's not according to me.  Here's MIT's Living Wage Calculator: http://livingwage.mit.edu/Going with the largest agriculture county in California, Fresno, the living wage for one adult is 10.84.
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how would it help tens of million - they would be able to work the hours they need at 1 employer instead of 2 each day (aside from also harming the environment each day as they now have to travel to the 2nd employer each day - 10s of millions do this).  it is a  huge burden on families - the ones most in need of a parent at home as much as possible.  i said this before.
I think this will continue to be a disagreement. The old OT law in California agriculture workers would have to work 10 hours a day, and 60 hours a week. I think that sucks. I would have to research a little more, but the idea that most farm workers even have a permanent home that one parent can stay at home is probably not true for a lot of farm workers. They have more problems for The Children than just not having a parent at home though: http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/
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you keep saying if only they would pay a living wage - they won't so move on.  why berate something you know won't happen all the while knowing CA could change the OT law for these people?
Yes, I believe it was also our American Founding Fathers who said "Just give up. You can't win" Cesar Chavez was just wasting his time.
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and look what governor brown did to farm workers - made them eligible for OT after 8 hours and now they too will have to work for 2 farms instead of one, because one won't schedule them anything close to 8 hours a day.  in the car they go to drive to another farm to wreck the environment.  all these farm workers will simply be trading farms all day to get enough hours in.
As a farm worker, do you have some inside information on this?
Quote
if you are so concerned about the taxpayers, the OT law in CA is surely sticking it to them, because public union members seem to be getting more than their fair share.   most states and the federal gov't grant OT after 40 hours/wk not 8 hours/day.  but the problem in CA is that the union bosses own CA pols.
Look man, I'm not even from California. I don't know the politics there.  I don't know that most states do or do not have overtime after 8 hours or 40 hours a week etc. And I don't care to research it but you're more than welcome

All I'm saying is yeah, there are abuses in both private and public sectors. I don't think the janitor thing is a huge deal. And you're right, we need to make things fair and equitable, whatever that means. The end.


beastykato

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2016, 06:27:29 PM »
Didn't read everyone's reply, but this is not as unusual as you might think, uncommon maybe, but not unusual.   

I see this type of stuff all the time and in my current union job janitors make around 60k a year, maybe a little more.   They almost make as much as I do being in a skilled position.  Most of them work all the overtime that's available because.... well because why not lol.

Now I have never seen such an extreme amount, but 100-150k as a janitor in a union pre-benefits.  Yep, no sweat.

bzzzt

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2016, 07:03:08 PM »
it is a stretch to presume he worked hard.  if the job were really hard would he have the strength to work so many hours overtime?  would he want to work so much overtime if the job were really hard?  doubt it.   

Part of me just wants to start with personal attacks, but those are rarely productive.

No one wants to work that much overtime. You do it for the money. I've worked that many hours before and you are literally living to work, but you make that sacrifice for a reason. The plus side of 7/16s is that 7/12s is a breeze after that and 4/10s is like a part-time job.

I worked 148 hours in 9 days before my wedding (7/16s, a 22, and a 14, then I drove 8 hours home). Yes, it sucks, but I paid for most of my wedding in that time.

It's a good way to get divorced if you're married and be an absentee father if you have children, but if your single/your spouse can handle it, it's the greatest way to get ahead as long as you don't squander the opportunity.

Just another "lazy" union guy...

FenderBender

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2016, 07:19:57 AM »
“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” -FDR
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/04/the-7-most-dangerous-myths-about-a-15-minimum-wage/#786564002c57
and when exactly was the last time they paid a living wage according to you?
Assuming we're going with the minimum wage, 1968 I think. I'm not giving myself enough time to find a more concrete answer for you but really,  it's not according to me.  Here's MIT's Living Wage Calculator: http://livingwage.mit.edu/Going with the largest agriculture county in California, Fresno, the living wage for one adult is 10.84.
Quote
how would it help tens of million - they would be able to work the hours they need at 1 employer instead of 2 each day (aside from also harming the environment each day as they now have to travel to the 2nd employer each day - 10s of millions do this).  it is a  huge burden on families - the ones most in need of a parent at home as much as possible.  i said this before.
I think this will continue to be a disagreement. The old OT law in California agriculture workers would have to work 10 hours a day, and 60 hours a week. I think that sucks. I would have to research a little more, but the idea that most farm workers even have a permanent home that one parent can stay at home is probably not true for a lot of farm workers. They have more problems for The Children than just not having a parent at home though: http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/
Quote
you keep saying if only they would pay a living wage - they won't so move on.  why berate something you know won't happen all the while knowing CA could change the OT law for these people?
Yes, I believe it was also our American Founding Fathers who said "Just give up. You can't win" Cesar Chavez was just wasting his time.
Quote
and look what governor brown did to farm workers - made them eligible for OT after 8 hours and now they too will have to work for 2 farms instead of one, because one won't schedule them anything close to 8 hours a day.  in the car they go to drive to another farm to wreck the environment.  all these farm workers will simply be trading farms all day to get enough hours in.
As a farm worker, do you have some inside information on this?
Quote
if you are so concerned about the taxpayers, the OT law in CA is surely sticking it to them, because public union members seem to be getting more than their fair share.   most states and the federal gov't grant OT after 40 hours/wk not 8 hours/day.  but the problem in CA is that the union bosses own CA pols.
Look man, I'm not even from California. I don't know the politics there.  I don't know that most states do or do not have overtime after 8 hours or 40 hours a week etc. And I don't care to research it but you're more than welcome

All I'm saying is yeah, there are abuses in both private and public sectors. I don't think the janitor thing is a huge deal. And you're right, we need to make things fair and equitable, whatever that means. The end.

i was going to reply but i don't want to get more political.  i gave up politics about 2 months ago.  i haven't read so much as a headline unless by accident so bailing out now.  life is so much better.  take care.


FenderBender

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2016, 07:25:32 AM »
it is a stretch to presume he worked hard.  if the job were really hard would he have the strength to work so many hours overtime?  would he want to work so much overtime if the job were really hard?  doubt it.   

Part of me just wants to start with personal attacks, but those are rarely productive.

No one wants to work that much overtime. You do it for the money. I've worked that many hours before and you are literally living to work, but you make that sacrifice for a reason. The plus side of 7/16s is that 7/12s is a breeze after that and 4/10s is like a part-time job.

I worked 148 hours in 9 days before my wedding (7/16s, a 22, and a 14, then I drove 8 hours home). Yes, it sucks, but I paid for most of my wedding in that time.

It's a good way to get divorced if you're married and be an absentee father if you have children, but if your single/your spouse can handle it, it's the greatest way to get ahead as long as you don't squander the opportunity.

Just another "lazy" union guy...

yeah, we don't know him or the job, maybe he had it tough all day everyday and maybe not, never really know.  sorry.  take care.

FenderBender

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2016, 07:22:00 AM »
So a week ago I didn't want to get political, but this issue is a prime example of elites over the poor.

Fine if union member receive OT after 40hr/wk, but after 8hr/day and double time after 12hr/day, well among those working retail and food service job, union members and their bosses are regarded as elites.

California hasn't realigned politically, but the outright disregard and lack of concern for those at the bottom is a disgrace.  That is my opinion.  That is the way I see it.  It isn't a matter of disliking unions or union members, it is a matter of fairness and I see the deck stacked against those at the bottom.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2016, 07:30:45 AM »
So a week ago I didn't want to get political, but this issue is a prime example of elites over the poor.

Fine if union member receive OT after 40hr/wk, but after 8hr/day and double time after 12hr/day, well among those working retail and food service job, union members and their bosses are regarded as elites.

California hasn't realigned politically, but the outright disregard and lack of concern for those at the bottom is a disgrace.  That is my opinion.  That is the way I see it.  It isn't a matter of disliking unions or union members, it is a matter of fairness and I see the deck stacked against those at the bottom.

This is a pretty good example of the suckers fighting for scraps. Pitting a union janitor against a McDonalds cook is would be funny if it weren't our actual state of affairs.

undercover

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2016, 08:35:16 AM »
Why did this thread turn political? I think the point of the article is that there are plenty of opportunities out there for those willing to work their ass off. Whether you personally would work the number of hours worked or you disagree with a public employee getting paid so much or you wouldn't do the work yourself is irrelevant.

The fact is he's making a ton of money legally. Some here argue that it's not a lot of money for the number of hours. I say meh. How many people make $235k/yr, period? What's your excuse for not making $235k/yr? Maybe he enjoys the work. It's easy and menial, but also probably cathartic. He sure doesn't have time to spend it.

FenderBender

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2017, 05:14:33 AM »
Cameras reportedly catch BART janitor who pulled in $270,000 in year spending hours in closet.

Local Fox Station investigated: http://www.ktvu.com/news/2-investigates/234011066-story

Nice video with the story.  He worked 17 hours a day for 18 days straight I think they said and he did this month after month for years while the stations remained filthy. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 05:29:59 AM by FenderBender »

CheapScholar

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2017, 07:34:13 AM »
Ha.  I just knew this guy was taking naps somewhere.  I used to live in Chicago (before I got smart and left), he'd be a typical government employee in the Windy City.

Dicey

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Re: BART janitor grossed $270K in pay and benefits last year(in SF)
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2017, 07:54:32 AM »
Cameras reportedly catch BART janitor who pulled in $270,000 in year spending hours in closet.

Local Fox Station investigated: http://www.ktvu.com/news/2-investigates/234011066-story

Nice video with the story.  He worked 17 hours a day for 18 days straight I think they said and he did this month after month for years while the stations remained filthy.
Wow, that was interesting. I used the Powell Station for about five years back in the 90's. Anyone else notice that the door to the room the janitor frequents is filthy? Cleaning things that are obviously dirty must not count if they're not on the task list.

Hmmm, maybe we can put The Donald on this case. I'm sure he can resolve it in no time.