Author Topic: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America  (Read 2140 times)

Ron Scott

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Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« on: September 13, 2021, 12:42:21 PM »
I listened to a podcast recently that traced the poor structure of jobs to the advent of agriculture! Long time ago…

People in general are just not good at “getting work done through others” (part of the definition of management). Many types of jobs that have resulted are typically boring or even painful to endure. Couple that with the less-than-endearing human quality to find political opportunities in much of life makes the work of millions unpleasant. This failure has endured wars, terrorism, depressions and recessions, market crashes, and prolonged periods of stagnant productivity.

But I am more hopeful now.

Why? Because I believe American businesses are starting to realize that growth can no longer be squeezed from the stone. Automation and outsourcing are nice, but long term growth now requires best efforts from a fully engaged, enthusiastic workforce. At the same time workers are are not a dime a dozen anymore and lazy management will not be rewarded by shareholders.

America got a major boost in productivity by the full engagement of women in the workplace. That was great but it’s all baked in and growth demands something else. We need better jobs and and more highly-skilled workers.

I don't underestimate the ability of America business to rise to the occasion. I expect business to redouble their efforts to attract and retail their best workers and to foist on government as best they can the task of providing that skilled workforce. Voters agree.  Government will respond to both business AND voters, taxes will rise, college will replace high school as the minimum, gig jobs will be treated like real ones, discrimination will be seen as economically wasteful, and the resultant new workforce will be more demanding—and choosy in picking a job. The choice is this or decline.

I can certainly be wrong, but something’s in the air. I don’t the jobs of the future will be your father’s 9 to 5.

We shall see.






joe189man

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 01:24:03 PM »
Are you running for president of the internet? jk

you may be right, but in my and DW industry we cant find enough people to fill the jobs we have. We have to hang on to underperforming folks and give them raises because they are warm bodies that show up on time.

DW is outsourcing work to india and bringing temps from south africa/austrailia

this isnt from a lack of trying, both our companies have job postings constantly

We need better jobs and more highly skilled workers AND need workers that want to work. Not kids trying to get rich from tik tok, youtube and instagram


wageslave23

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2021, 01:44:00 PM »
Call me cynical, but I don't see much change in the future.  Employers will always try to get the most production out of the lowest cost.  Employees will search for jobs that benefit them the most for the least amount of work/stress.  It's capitalism and the free market in all its glory.  Employers didn't magically become more smart and Employees didn't magically become more efficient.   There will continue to be a slow shift to outsourcing outsourceable jobs to other countries and robots.  And this may lead to more managerial positions for US workers.  And yes, we are slowly becoming more educated and specialized.  But this has all been happening for the last 50 yrs.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2021, 03:22:23 PM »
I also see is a shift in our general work culture.  Boomers and employees before them had a different type of work ethic and more sense of loyalty to their employers.  The newer generations want to move up in the ranks quickly.  They don't care how many times they change jobs and they are less willing to work the hours previous generations would tolerate.  Furthermore, many may even take less pay for less work hours, increased flexibility and/or more time off.  Increased socialistic policies may also support this transition.  Employers will be more and more open-minded about employees working from home.  In many cases, it's a win-win for both parties anyway.  I have been reading for years about the coming shortage of skilled labor due to aging demographics.  The pandemic probably speeded this up.

The economy has been propped up for some time.  As inflation ticks up and the fed is forced to reduce their manipulation, it's hard to tell what will happen.   A significant recession or depression could change things considerably.  Businesses will always seek the lowest cost and their drive to maximize profits won't go away.  It is simple supply/demand.  Once conditions change, employers will adjust accordingly. 

GodlessCommie

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2021, 06:50:40 PM »
We need better jobs and more highly skilled workers AND need workers that want to work. Not kids trying to get rich from tik tok, youtube and instagram

That's entrepreneurship. That it's within reach of a regular kid, and not only people wealthy enough to start a studio in LA should be celebrated.

gooki

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2021, 07:19:42 PM »
Quote
Why? Because I believe American businesses are starting to realize that growth can no longer be squeezed from the stone. Automation and outsourcing are nice, but long term growth now requires best efforts from a fully engaged, enthusiastic workforce. At the same time workers are are not a dime a dozen anymore and lazy management will not be rewarded by shareholders.

I work for a American company that's supposed to be a model of best practices in corporate governance. But when the shareholders want out, the old capitalistic practices kick in. Offshore everything to eastern Europe, cash in via a quick IPO and then let the public hold the sinking ship.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 07:23:43 PM by gooki »

TheYeti

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 02:36:15 PM »
I also see is a shift in our general work culture.  Boomers and employees before them had a different type of work ethic and more sense of loyalty to their employers.  The newer generations want to move up in the ranks quickly.  They don't care how many times they change jobs and they are less willing to work the hours previous generations would tolerate.

There is a general shift but it is to work more and more and more. See this article: https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_071326/lang--en/index.htm
It shows that Americans now work more hours than any other industrialized nation. Certainly some Boomers are in this workforce but this primarily Gen X and Millennials that are working these extended hours.

I am a GenX'r Engineer and have seen first hand the level of expectations rise throughout my career. You don't get to walk away from your job at 5pm. Your laptop goes home with you. When your company issued cell phone rings at 9pm then again at 4am it is expected that you pick it up. I know I have been there. Many and often the media bash the Millennials but that is really misplaced. I find them to be very educated, savvy, and effective. Companies have thrown loyalty out the window as they commodify the workforce. There are no longer pensions to keep you at a company. These companies no longer give good raises, they give raises just lower than inflation because they can get away with that. After several years of raises that don't keep up, you have to leave to just earn what you were making before you started there. If you don't watch out for yourself these companies will eat you up.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 07:03:15 PM by NCYeti »

gimmi80

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 08:31:47 PM »
I listened to a podcast recently that traced the poor structure of jobs to the advent of agriculture! Long time ago…

People in general are just not good at “getting work done through others” (part of the definition of management). Many types of jobs that have resulted are typically boring or even painful to endure. Couple that with the less-than-endearing human quality to find political opportunities in much of life makes the work of millions unpleasant. This failure has endured wars, terrorism, depressions and recessions, market crashes, and prolonged periods of stagnant productivity.

But I am more hopeful now.

Why? Because I believe American businesses are starting to realize that growth can no longer be squeezed from the stone. Automation and outsourcing are nice, but long term growth now requires best efforts from a fully engaged, enthusiastic workforce. At the same time workers are are not a dime a dozen anymore and lazy management will not be rewarded by shareholders.

America got a major boost in productivity by the full engagement of women in the workplace. That was great but it’s all baked in and growth demands something else. We need better jobs and and more highly-skilled workers.

I don't underestimate the ability of America business to rise to the occasion. I expect business to redouble their efforts to attract and retail their best workers and to foist on government as best they can the task of providing that skilled workforce. Voters agree.  Government will respond to both business AND voters, taxes will rise, college will replace high school as the minimum, gig jobs will be treated like real ones, discrimination will be seen as economically wasteful, and the resultant new workforce will be more demanding—and choosy in picking a job. The choice is this or decline.

I can certainly be wrong, but something’s in the air. I don’t the jobs of the future will be your father’s 9 to 5.

We shall see.

It’s an interesting point of view. Working a 9-5 job certainly sucks although I don’t think it will change anytime soon. It was much better when we lived in small tribes of hunters and gatherers (like Harari would say), with a lot of free time on our hands.
I experienced a ”partial retirement” this past summer, and let me tell you: it’s lovely! Having a lot of free time, a hobby you love and a few friends that share your passion is the best thing in the world.

Definitely before the lockdown many people were going to work so they could pay for the car and gas to go to work. Thanks to helicopter money a few have taken a time out to rethink it. But I don’t think the trauma has been severe enough to really change people behavior. I think that as soon as the free money stops, and as soon as the new hot desirable item is available for sale, people will quickly go back to live paycheck to paycheck.

Fishindude

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2021, 06:31:28 AM »
I'm glad that to be retired from the workforce.   Don't think I could tolerate all of the pandering it requires these days just to get somebody to show up and earn a living.   With exception of unsustainable pensions, work in America has never been better, safer, easier or more highly paid.   Biggest changes that I see is that the newer workforce expects a whole lot more without putting forth any extra effort.

The good news is, that there is a sh!tload of opportunity for anyone that wants to bust their tail, work hard and go the extra mile, as there are very few others competing against them willing to do the same.


ender

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2021, 06:45:49 AM »
I also see is a shift in our general work culture.  Boomers and employees before them had a different type of work ethic and more sense of loyalty to their employers.  The newer generations want to move up in the ranks quickly.  They don't care how many times they change jobs and they are less willing to work the hours previous generations would tolerate.  Furthermore, many may even take less pay for less work hours, increased flexibility and/or more time off. 

I think it's interesting how many older folks seem to think that people should have a sense of loyalty to their employers.

Why the fuck should they.

I consider myself lucky that I had a job offer rescinded in the 2009 timeframe after specifically asking if the economic conditions might result in that happening, because it showed me just how loyal companies are to employees. That is, as loyal as it makes sense.

Companies can buy my loyalty or otherwise bribe me with it but the idea that I should be grateful to my employer purely because they pay a salary is kinda silly.

I'm just as loyal to companies as they are to me. Aka, not much at all. If a company wants my loyalty? Start offering 3-6 months severance as part of my contract if I am laid off/fired. Boom! I'm now more loyal because the company is reciprocating SOMETHING to me. Offer great retirement benefits. Offer things that compel me to work there rather than expecting inertia and a weird sense of "loyalty" to keep me there.

I'd argue that younger folks now are far more ambitious than the older generation. But they have an incredibly low tolerance for non-merit based promotions/compensation and pointless busywork. They want to be valued for their output, not their hours.

Working smarter, not harder, is pretty much the future of work.

This is immensely hard for a lot of folks who spent decades putting in tons of hours doing meaningless things and sacrificing tons of their persona lives because that is what was valued. That sucks, but... well, don't expect an entire generation of young adults who watched their parents be absent for the sake of "working hard!" and then got fucked by corporations being as loyal as they always were to play the same game. Times are changing and the workforce now is motivated but by totally different things. Expecting someone to work tons of hours and really "hard" (whatever "hard" means to you) without any real benefit to the employee before years or even decades go by is a fools game. The newer generation figured this out in their early working career.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2021, 07:23:30 AM »
IMO, remote work for many white collar professions is the reason to be mildly optimistic. The requirement to spend $20 of wealth and maybe an hour of time per day transporting ourselves to and from work has been removed. Those commute costs/times presume one lives close to work, which for many people means higher housing costs. We will be safer, healthier, and wealthier as a result of Zoom, Microsoft Teams, Salesforce, Hubspot, and Google cloud products.

Plus, remote work forces managers to evaluate people's actual results and be less swayed by water-cooler politics, which some lazy people were very good at. It's much harder for the schmoozers to kiss ass all the way up to management when they have only a text thread and a video call to work with. These new anti-micro-management norms will trickle down to blue collar professions and in-person white collar professions. Meanwhile, the companies most successful at ditching their expensive physical office spaces will be heralded as driving productivity and following The Correct Way.

This doesn't mean everybody's life will get better. If your main talent is office politics, things have taken a turn for the worse. If your job is in the physical world, you might not see benefits for a while. And among the people who do benefit, some will take the monetary savings and spend it on more restaurant food and unnecessary manufactured objects. Others will take the time savings and spend it watching TV or staring at the internet. Some of those who exploit geographic arbitrage enabled by new technologies will apply their excess wealth to having a large lawn to mow, or a large SUV/truck they don't have to park in a big city.

Overall the changes represent big opportunities for young mustachians, but will be yet another wasted opportunity for most people. The world can give you everything on a platter, but if you spend your whole paycheck you can only be poor.

wageslave23

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2021, 09:09:25 AM »
I also see is a shift in our general work culture.  Boomers and employees before them had a different type of work ethic and more sense of loyalty to their employers.  The newer generations want to move up in the ranks quickly.  They don't care how many times they change jobs and they are less willing to work the hours previous generations would tolerate.  Furthermore, many may even take less pay for less work hours, increased flexibility and/or more time off. 

I think it's interesting how many older folks seem to think that people should have a sense of loyalty to their employers.

Why the fuck should they.

I consider myself lucky that I had a job offer rescinded in the 2009 timeframe after specifically asking if the economic conditions might result in that happening, because it showed me just how loyal companies are to employees. That is, as loyal as it makes sense.

Companies can buy my loyalty or otherwise bribe me with it but the idea that I should be grateful to my employer purely because they pay a salary is kinda silly.

I'm just as loyal to companies as they are to me. Aka, not much at all. If a company wants my loyalty? Start offering 3-6 months severance as part of my contract if I am laid off/fired. Boom! I'm now more loyal because the company is reciprocating SOMETHING to me. Offer great retirement benefits. Offer things that compel me to work there rather than expecting inertia and a weird sense of "loyalty" to keep me there.

I'd argue that younger folks now are far more ambitious than the older generation. But they have an incredibly low tolerance for non-merit based promotions/compensation and pointless busywork. They want to be valued for their output, not their hours.

Working smarter, not harder, is pretty much the future of work.

This is immensely hard for a lot of folks who spent decades putting in tons of hours doing meaningless things and sacrificing tons of their persona lives because that is what was valued. That sucks, but... well, don't expect an entire generation of young adults who watched their parents be absent for the sake of "working hard!" and then got fucked by corporations being as loyal as they always were to play the same game. Times are changing and the workforce now is motivated but by totally different things. Expecting someone to work tons of hours and really "hard" (whatever "hard" means to you) without any real benefit to the employee before years or even decades go by is a fools game. The newer generation figured this out in their early working career.

Yep, that's why I'm on this site. I saw how hard my dad worked and how much he sacrificed to his employer and realized at a young age it wasn't worth it.  I've never "worked hard" or "gone the extra mile" and I've always been in high demand and highly regarded by both clients and employers.  This is because I can read between the lines and understand what employers really care about and that's the bottom line.  A lot of the older more conservative employers think it takes butts in the seat, and working long hours to be a good employee.  Businesses exist to make a profit and the importance of any particular cog is proportional to how directly it influences the bottomline.  *Hint - those things (working hard, long hours, busy work) aren't directly correlated to the bottom line, even if your employer doesn't understand this at first, they eventually will and if they don't then you move on.  I dont care about "loyalty" (as Ender explained - thats bs), my performance and results earn respect and that's far more valuable.  At the end of the day, money talks and my career is evidence of that. 

GodlessCommie

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2021, 10:09:40 AM »
Yep, that's why I'm on this site. I saw how hard my dad worked and how much he sacrificed to his employer and realized at a young age it wasn't worth it.  I've never "worked hard" or "gone the extra mile" and I've always been in high demand and highly regarded by both clients and employers.  This is because I can read between the lines and understand what employers really care about and that's the bottom line.  A lot of the older more conservative employers think it takes butts in the seat, and working long hours to be a good employee.  Businesses exist to make a profit and the importance of any particular cog is proportional to how directly it influences the bottomline.  *Hint - those things (working hard, long hours, busy work) aren't directly correlated to the bottom line, even if your employer doesn't understand this at first, they eventually will and if they don't then you move on.  I dont care about "loyalty" (as Ender explained - thats bs), my performance and results earn respect and that's far more valuable.  At the end of the day, money talks and my career is evidence of that.

Same here. I would go even a step further: in a lot of cases, especially in large companies, you are so far removed from the bottom line that it's both pointless and unfeasible to try and affect it. If you hit performance metrics, you are a star employee. If you are a manager, you play a game of managing expectations well, and you are a star manager.

Loyalty: absolutely, f that s. It either goes both ways, or none. A job is not a gift bestowed on me by my employer, it's a contract that is kept as long as it is mutually beneficial (unless unions, separate story).

As for good old days... I haven't seen them, admittedly, and I have trouble reconciling stories coming from the same demographics:

a) you graduated HS, got a job on the assembly line, and it got you a house in suburbs, a house on the lake, and your wife could stay home to raise kids
b) kids these days have it so easy, they simply don't want to try harder, but
c) all the good jobs were sent to China and Mexico, illegals are taking the rest, what can an honest working man do?

It can't all be true at the same time, no matter how tempting.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2021, 11:24:10 AM »
The lack of employer loyalty and the corporate view of employees as disposable cogs to be added or downsized as needed are both mutually reinforcing and the same thing. It's two sides of the same coin. "I'm only using these people to make money" could be said by either employee or employer. If one side feels that the other side thinks this way, they're prone to consider their economic partners as disposable too. So there's something hypocritical about being on one side of the relationship and criticizing the other side for having the same attitude.

Similarly, there's something weird about holding that attitude and simultaneously thinking there's something wrong with it, and the world would be better if other people didn't think that way. The rationale is that one's economic partner (employees or employer) thinks that way and therefore one has to think that way too, or risk being exploited. It's a rehashing of the prisoner's dilemma in behavioral economics, where both sides choose the suboptimal outcome because they distrust one another. When an unloyal employee/employer wishes their employer/employee was loyal, there's also a wishfulness that one could exploit over-trusting partners. Wouldn't it be nice to job hop among employers who provide great benefits and work very hard to avoid layoffs? Wouldn't it be nice to under-compensate a bunch of company-man employees?

If we say we want the possibly mythical labor harmony that existed in the era of pensions, company towns, and lifetime employment, then we should acknowledge that we would all have to change our attitudes or that world cannot exist. Employees would have to consider their jobs the best possible alternative, and think cooperatively rather than competitively. Employers would have to start looking beyond making quarterly numbers, and start cultivating meritocratic pathways for growth instead of dead-end jobs. Shareholders would have to start accepting lumpier earnings and frequently skipped dividends, simply because management found an opportunity to reapply labor in a new way in a particular quarter, rather than doing layoffs. These ideas are simply not in our cultural zeitgeist at the moment, and I have trouble thinking them myself because I come from this era in cultural history.

What's ironic is how poorly suited our current corporate, investment, and labor culture is to our times. How many of us have worked at a company whose processes for delivering value are so complex and convoluted the saying goes "you spend your first year here learning what the company does, and your second year learning what you do!" Modern companies only earn economic returns if they can build complex and unique systems that extract value out of hypercomplex and hyper competitive environments. They really do have to come up with something new and unique, and then keep coming up with those things. And yet here they are laying off people after paying them for months/years to learn what they do - and for what benefit? So that this quarter's earnings are in line with analyst estimates despite soft sales? So the 2% dividend can be paid? Teams go through the phases of forming, storming, norming, and layoff. Corporations shed their talent and foster an us vs. them attitude that kills productivity. Meanwhile employees keep jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, job-hopping to chase tiny raises that probably include increased work hours, so no net gain for them. What a loss on all sides!

CodingHare

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2021, 11:39:01 AM »
Everytime I have job hopped I have landed in a better job with better hours (and with one exception) better pay.  It's not my fault that companies are barely keeping up with cost of living increases.

I do find this discussion interesting on a FIRE forum.  I want FIRE because I hate jumping through corporate loops for cost of living raises and devoting most of my life to work.  But I've never had trouble finding employment because the work I do is good.  And I am paid for 8 hours of work, so I do 8 hours of good work.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2021, 12:05:51 PM »
@ChpBstrd , it's a good and fair point that "goes both ways" also "goes both ways". I'd argue, though, that the loyalty thing was destroyed by the employers, not the employees - and thus, only employers can fix it.

As for job-hopping, one has to consider the opportunity cost. Not job-hopping means declining real wages, most often. I, for one, am happy to see the impact of job-hopping in my FIRE-related spreadsheets.


ender

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2021, 12:26:10 PM »
job-hopping to chase tiny raises that probably include increased work hours, so no net gain for them. What a loss on all sides!

For what it's worth, most folks that do this don't get "tiny raises."

They make significantly more than loyal corporate folks do in their career. Massively more.

Sanitary Engineer

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2021, 12:26:34 PM »
Since finding MMM, I am wildly optimistic about about my future of NOT working in America (or anywhere else)!

Rusted Rose

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2021, 12:38:59 PM »
I'd argue, though, that the loyalty thing was destroyed by the employers, not the employees

Completely, completely agree with this.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2021, 12:45:32 PM »

wageslave23

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2021, 12:59:02 PM »
job-hopping to chase tiny raises that probably include increased work hours, so no net gain for them. What a loss on all sides!

For what it's worth, most folks that do this don't get "tiny raises."

They make significantly more than loyal corporate folks do in their career. Massively more.

+1

There's a reason I job hopped, I would have loved to stay at the same place for 20 years.  Unfortunately the employer has the upper hand and controls the work environment more than the employee.  Ultimately the only power the employee has is to leave.  Companies cycle through a bunch of employees because only about 30-50% of employees are too comfortable/afraid to move and will accept below market wage increases.  Of the 3 times I've switched jobs, I received at least a 15% pay increase and equal or better working conditions/hours.  Its a hassle switching jobs and I'd rather companies realize what they have and pay accordingly before I find a different company, but, alas, they don't.  "You don't know what you got til its gone".  And I've never taken them up on matching the new offer. 

I honestly think its mostly an issue of ignorance on the company's part.  They don't understand inflation.  Getting a 3% raise every year seems nice but it means they are just keeping up with inflation.  After 20 years, the veteran employee ends up making the same as the new hire.  Employers don't realize the effect of inflation until the old employee leaves and they try to replace her with a new employee but the vacancy stays open because they are substantially under market.  Its hard for them to swallow the fact that it takes 5-10% yearly raises to retain top talent and keep up with the market for the employee.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 01:08:02 PM by wageslave23 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2021, 01:22:01 PM »
I honestly think its mostly an issue of ignorance on the company's part.  They don't understand inflation.  Getting a 3% raise every year seems nice but it means they are just keeping up with inflation.  After 20 years, the veteran employee ends up making the same as the new hire.  Employers don't realize the effect of inflation until the old employee leaves and they try to replace her with a new employee but the vacancy stays open because they are substantially under market.  Its hard for them to swallow the fact that it takes 5-10% yearly raises to retain top talent and keep up with the market for the employee.

I don't think it's a lack of understanding.

I've never changed jobs because of money, but each time I've changed jobs I've made 15 - 40% more.  Companies want to pay the least possible, and most employees find it to be a pain in the ass to change jobs . . . failing to keep up with market rates is just an easy way to show lower costs for companies.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2021, 02:21:21 PM »
Ideally, you seriously upskill yourself at each hop, getting a title/level bump, a responsibility bump, and a pay bump. If you don't find yourself having a moderate to advanced case of imposter syndrome at the start of the new job, you likely undersold yourself.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2021, 05:06:26 PM »
I also see is a shift in our general work culture.  Boomers and employees before them had a different type of work ethic and more sense of loyalty to their employers.  The newer generations want to move up in the ranks quickly.  They don't care how many times they change jobs and they are less willing to work the hours previous generations would tolerate.

There is a general shift but it is to work more and more and more. See this article: https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_071326/lang--en/index.htm
It shows that Americans now work more hours than any other industrialized nation. Certainly some Boomers are in this workforce but this primarily Gen X and Millennials that are working these extended hours.

I am a GenX'r Engineer and have seen first hand the level of expectations rise throughout my career. You don't get to walk away from your job at 5pm. Your laptop goes home with you. When your company issued cell phone rings at 9pm then again at 4am it is expected that you pick it up. I know I have been there. Many and often the media bash the Millennials but that is really misplaced. I find them to be very educated, savvy, and effective. Companies have thrown loyalty out the window as they commodify the workforce. There are no longer pensions to keep you at a company. These companies no longer give good raises, they give raises just lower than inflation because they can get away with that. After several years of raises that don't keep up, you have to leave to just earn what you were making before you started there. If you don't watch out for yourself these companies will eat you up.

I think that I may have not conveyed my thoughts clearly.  My thoughts was based on past HR training, articles read and experience with younger employees hired during my last 10 yrs of employment.  I didn't intend to place "judgment" on the newer generations.  I agree with another poster that they simply figured out quicker the best way to accelerate their career and pay.  I remember a visit from a senior VP who was addressing the local workforce and was peddling the latest corporate BS and excuses why there would be another pay freeze (no raises).  One of the younger employees said that he was a "for-profit employee" (using a variation of a phrase the VP had just used to justify the lacks of raises) and that the multi-million dollar bonuses of the CEO and other top ranking officials recently mentioned by the media should be eliminated or reduced and shared with the rest of the employees.  The look on his face was priceless.

You certainly describe my career employer accurately.  The pension was phased out for new employees around 5 yrs before my departure.  If I had been smarter, I would left MUCH sooner.  Fortunately, I started saving/investing from an early age, so I was still able to retire relatively young.

gooki

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2021, 10:09:29 PM »
Ideally, you seriously upskill yourself at each hop, getting a title/level bump, a responsibility bump, and a pay bump. If you don't find yourself having a moderate to advanced case of imposter syndrome at the start of the new job, you likely undersold yourself.

Na, that's too much work, just job hop for the same title, same responsibility AND the pay bump.

wageslave23

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2021, 06:45:38 AM »
Ideally, you seriously upskill yourself at each hop, getting a title/level bump, a responsibility bump, and a pay bump. If you don't find yourself having a moderate to advanced case of imposter syndrome at the start of the new job, you likely undersold yourself.

Na, that's too much work, just job hop for the same title, same responsibility AND the pay bump.

Push yourself to advance for the first 5-8 yrs.  Then set it on cruise control and coast to retirement for the next 5, you've earned it. 

ender

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2021, 06:58:52 AM »
Ideally, you seriously upskill yourself at each hop, getting a title/level bump, a responsibility bump, and a pay bump. If you don't find yourself having a moderate to advanced case of imposter syndrome at the start of the new job, you likely undersold yourself.

Na, that's too much work, just job hop for the same title, same responsibility AND the pay bump.

Push yourself to advance for the first 5-8 yrs.  Then set it on cruise control and coast to retirement for the next 5, you've earned it.

I resemble this strategy! :D

dignam

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Re: Mildly Optimistic about the Future of Work in America
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2021, 07:20:36 AM »
I've been at my current employer since I graduated college 12 years ago.  I know I'm in the minority for my demographic, when it comes to not job hopping.  I'm making more than double, almost triple, what I did when I was hired (although the original owner low balled me "because of the recession"; insert many eye roll emojis here).  My pay is slightly above the median for my title and experience.  I have over 7 weeks of PTO too, which is one thing I don't think I can part with unless things get bad.

That said, I often wonder if I could make significantly more by job hopping.

I do feel like I'm either busting my ass or twiddling my thumbs (nature of my position I suppose).  Also at probably the midpoint of my working years, so pay increases will start to have a much smaller effect on my stash vs. market returns.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 07:23:27 AM by dignam »