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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on August 31, 2021, 09:48:49 PM

Title: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on August 31, 2021, 09:48:49 PM
OF COURSE they are facepunchworthy. I have heard all the horror stories of how expensive German cars are to maintain and repair. If you really need a car (me unfortunately), of course you should consider a used hybrid or electric, or something similarly frugal. I have been driving the same Volvo brick (740 SE/Turbo) for thirty years (bought NEW in 1991). It has been a great car--very reliable, cheap to own, and still looks great. I still enjoy driving it--so simple, RWD, with a great feel for the road and enough power when I need it. However, it has needed a bunch of expensive repairs this year, still needs cosmetic work, and I am wondering about safety compared to newer cars. We also always rent cars for road trips/vacations because I worry about things going wrong with such an old car on a long trip. It might be time to sell it given that I will likely need to be back on campus (college prof here) starting in 2022. Fortunately, I have a fairly short commute and don't have to be there every day. I have had a few people recently asking whether I want to sell it...

I am toying with the idea of replacing it, but likely not for at least a few months given how crazy the car market is right now.

Anyway...

My wife and I had a great two week roadtrip vacation through the SF Bay Area. We got upgraded to an Audi Q7--my first time driving an Audi. It was a very nice vehicle for this trip--partly because we bring a lot of stuff with us and buy a lot of stuff along the way--mostly gourmet goodies, but also some books and records (records, as in LPs!)

On the upside, the Q7 was very roomy, very comfortable and a very capable vehicle. I thought it had great build quality and I appreciated the navigation system and parking assist, etc. On the downside, I was expecting that it would have a sportier feel. In any of the driving modes, it was quite soft. I also did not like getting 21mpg on the highway or that fact that it uses 91 octane. I would never want anything so large or wasteful.

However, I met a few Audiphiles along the way. One guy told me that he got his 2017 S6 as a CPO from Audi for 37K a couple years ago. He couldn't say enough for it. He said his son owns one as well and absolutely loves his too... I am looking for a sporty, fairly simple car (four door sports sedan) to replace my Volvo. My mechanic, who I have used for years, told me he loves the way they drive, but...expensive to fix! He recommended I get a Lexus instead. Other mechanics I have used have echoed this in even stronger terms...

This is an irrational thing to be sure, but I am 50, we are doing well financially (no debt, plenty of emergency fund, well-funded retirement accounts, pension, etc). This year has been a total POS. I want something NICE...

Will an Audi drive me to the poorhouse? If I could get one for 35K that would give me a good 15+ years of service, I might consider it, but not if I am going to be hating it after five!

Any thoughts? How do they rate against BMWs? Mercedes? Lexus?

Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: PDXTabs on August 31, 2021, 09:54:25 PM
I think that there is a reason that you don't see a lot of early 2000s A/S4s on the road anymore.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Systems101 on August 31, 2021, 10:16:21 PM
Had a 2003 A4.  I liked the feel / layout of the vehicle and the stereo was nice, but what an epic electrical disaster.  I had more unscheduled maintenance on that vehicle in 3 years than I've had in more than 20 years of owning 2 other vehicles.  Never will go near owning a VW or Audi ever again.

Burned through headlights, including losing both headlights in less than one work week (that was fun to drive home in a northern winter evening when the second one died).  Burned brake lights about one every other year, and those have to be purchased as a full unit... $$$

Fuel system had a leak from improper installation of the pressure release vent, allowing in oxygen.  Then oxygen sensor in the fuel system failed, twice.

Issues with one of the windows and getting it to operate correctly.

Multiple internal display lights failed.

That was a new car - those were the three years it was on lease... (thankfully I didn't buy it!!). 
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: cannotWAIT on August 31, 2021, 10:28:41 PM
I had an A4 wagon, I think a 2006. I LOVED that car but it was just one thing after another. The sun roof leaked, the hydraulic lifts on the hatchback failed letting the door bash me on the head, the turbocharger failed, then the engine sucked a valve leaving me stranded at the top of a mountain pass. Audi paid to have the entire engine replaced and then it happened AGAIN a couple years later and that time they refused, saying it was because we hadn't had all service done at an authorized service center (we changed the oil ourselves rather than driving 90 miles to get it changed at the dealership). Replaced it with an Outback and never looked back.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on August 31, 2021, 10:38:27 PM
Geezus guys, that is some scary shite...I wonder whether the newer ones are any better?
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: lutorm on August 31, 2021, 11:08:29 PM
I had a 2001 Passat, which was the same chassis as the A4. I got it as a CPO in 2004 and once I got all the things fixed under warranty the next 3 years it was almost completely "trouble free" until I sold it in 2013. What I mean by "trouble free" is "nothing going wrong that I couldn't fix myself", did timing belt, ran into a curb so replaced the front suspension, replaced the brakes, etc.

My Dad's on his 3rd A4, I think. His verdict has always been "I'll never get one of these again", but then he does anyway. He no longer does his own work and service is super expensive.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: BDWW on September 01, 2021, 12:58:36 AM
I'd get a Kia Stinger or Genesis G70 over a German car right now. They really have improved by leaps and bounds in the last few years.

I've always wanted a 3-series, but they're a bit small for the family. And I think the newer models have lost a bit of the 3 series feel.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Paper Chaser on September 01, 2021, 03:49:28 AM
Geezus guys, that is some scary shite...I wonder whether the newer ones are any better?

(https://i.imgflip.com/4/gjx1b.jpg)

Grain of salt and all, but no...
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1881db7c5794c099a02bb7d0bf46e08f)
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on September 01, 2021, 04:59:05 AM
How many miles have you got on the Volvo?  If you had a bunch of expensive maintenance done recently, get your money's worth out of them.

In terms of reliability has the car given you any trouble or is it just your feeling that it is now older and less reliable?
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Malcat on September 01, 2021, 06:29:30 AM
You drive one luxury car for a bit and suddenly decide that you have to own one?

Look, as I always say in these threads, you are either here looking for permission or you are looking to be talked out of it.
So which is it?

Personally, I've driven a lot of great cars in my time, and yes they are fun, but at the end of the day, it's just another luxury thing that you get used to. It won't make your every day driving experience amazing, it will eventually just make all "lesser" cars feel like shit.

If you really want a luxury car, then don't be lazy, go try every other car option that you might want. I mean, FFS, that's a massive expense. Would you spend tens of thousands of dollars on any other totally unnecessary luxury just because you tried one option one time? Like really?

Say you had am ancient electric stove from the 70s and the coil burners just kind of worked. Then you rented a luxury condo with a crazy expensive commercial range that blew your mind. Would you just jump to buying a commercial range? Obviously not, you would thoroughly investigate what options you have available to you as an ugrade to you POS ancient electric stove.

If after thorough research, testing, and contemplation, you and your partner conclude that an Audi (of all fucking cars) is the single greatest thing that you could ever spend that heap of money on, and that it will genuinely make you happier than every single alternative that you could ever possibly spend on, then go ahead and buy an Audi.

But don't play these bullshit mental games of "Oh, well we've saved this and have enough of that, so we can afford it and want something NICE". The moment you spend that money, you close the door on everything else you could possibly spend on. So take the time to be damn sure that you want to close that door, because there's a lot of cool shit you could do with tens of thousands of dollars.

And if an Audi is truly the best use of your resources, then own it, and don't look for permission.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: jinga nation on September 01, 2021, 07:03:49 AM
However, I met a few Audiphiles along the way. One guy told me that he got his 2017 S6 as a CPO from Audi for 37K a couple years ago. He couldn't say enough for it. He said his son owns one as well and absolutely loves his too... I am looking for a sporty, fairly simple car (four door sports sedan) to replace my Volvo. My mechanic, who I have used for years, told me he loves the way they drive, but...expensive to fix! He recommended I get a Lexus instead. Other mechanics I have used have echoed this in even stronger terms...

This is an irrational thing to be sure, but I am 50, we are doing well financially (no debt, plenty of emergency fund, well-funded retirement accounts, pension, etc). This year has been a total POS. I want something NICE...

Listen to the wrench man... he deals with this daily. You're either a Mustachian looking for an anti-mustachian action validation or asking a someone here to facepunch you (with words, not actions).

Quote
Will an Audi drive me to the poorhouse? If I could get one for 35K that would give me a good 15+ years of service, I might consider it, but not if I am going to be hating it after five!

Good luck! I haven't seen much 10y+ Audis on the road, compared to BMW or MB. Most older luxury marques I see are Lexus/Infiniti/Acura/Buick/Cadillac/Lincoln.

Quote
Any thoughts? How do they rate against BMWs? Mercedes? Lexus?

Get a Lexus GS sport sedan. High reliability and long life. I see a lot of the older models on my commute.

Anecdata1: a good friend who works in finance is on his 3rd Audi, but he always leases (he gets killer deals through his employer). He said he'd never own one considering the issues they have constantly (he's had A3's and now a Q3).

Anecdata2: Two people in my workplace, who work in IT, have RS5 and S7, but they have had some issues with the lighting and "funny noises". One said he's never had any issues like this on his old Lexus, the other said the RS5 has had more minor niggles than his older BMW M3 which he gave his son. What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.

A funner project, if you want to wrench, would be to slap a turbocharger on the 740 and make it a RWD turbobricks sleeper. 240s and 740s are good simple platforms for this.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: GuitarStv on September 01, 2021, 07:05:06 AM
I got an audi from the Canada Revenue one time.  Not a fan.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Chris22 on September 01, 2021, 07:37:53 AM
Generally speaking, Audis have come a long way since the 2000s and are generally pretty reliable now. My mom has had one for 4 years and 50k miles and has had no significant problems.

That being said, if I were to recommend a luxury car to a non-enthusiast (meaning someone not generally willing to put up with an expensive carís quirks) Iíd suggest an Asian car, Lexus, Acura, or Genesis. Go try a Lexus ES, itís really nice. Or if you want the same general car for cheaper without the prestige badge, the Toyota Avalon is nearly the same thing.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on September 01, 2021, 07:47:48 AM
What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.
I know two people who own Audis that they purchased new.  One's a relative, one's a friend.  Both of them are very, very particular about their cars.  They don't let anyone else drive them, they're constantly worried that something might scratch them, etc.

I don't have time or energy to add that kind of mental stress to my life. 

That's one of the benefits of owning an older car--scratches, dings, and minor dents don't bother me one whit.  Kid opens a door too fast and whacks our other car?  I care more about the carelessness than the ding.  Soccer cleats scuff up the door sills?  I won't even notice. Need to load up some second-hand furniture?  No worries.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: bacchi on September 01, 2021, 08:12:31 AM
What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.
I know two people who own Audis that they purchased new.  One's a relative, one's a friend.  Both of them are very, very particular about their cars.  They don't let anyone else drive them, they're constantly worried that something might scratch them, etc.

That happens with all luxury cars. A friend just got a Tesla and he's now "that guy" that takes 2 parking spaces at the rear of the lot. (It's a Tesla, not a $500k Ferrari.)

Quote
I don't have time or energy to add that kind of mental stress to my life. 

That's one of the benefits of owning an older car--scratches, dings, and minor dents don't bother me one whit.  Kid opens a door too fast and whacks our other car?  I care more about the carelessness than the ding.  Soccer cleats scuff up the door sills?  I won't even notice. Need to load up some second-hand furniture?  No worries.

Word.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: jinga nation on September 01, 2021, 09:26:54 AM
Generally speaking, Audis have come a long way since the 2000s and are generally pretty reliable now. My mom has had one for 4 years and 50k miles and has had no significant problems.

That being said, if I were to recommend a luxury car to a non-enthusiast (meaning someone not generally willing to put up with an expensive carís quirks) Iíd suggest an Asian car, Lexus, Acura, or Genesis. Go try a Lexus ES, itís really nice. Or if you want the same general car for cheaper without the prestige badge, the Toyota Avalon is nearly the same thing.

Sadly, Audi coming in a long way in reliability means it is still behind its peers. Unsure it would meet OP's 15 year requirement.

I'm on the fence on Genesis, recent marque, but then parent Hyundai has come up leaps and bounds in reliability.

Concur with the Avalon point.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on September 01, 2021, 10:53:38 AM
IF you do decide to get one, please don't be like the Audi drivers I encounter here.  They act like they own the road, no consideration for other drivers.  I'm at the point where I don't like Audis because of the kind of person who buys them.  Sort of like pit bulls and Rotties, nice dogs but attract bad owners.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Malcat on September 01, 2021, 12:00:30 PM
IF you do decide to get one, please don't be like the Audi drivers I encounter here.  They act like they own the road, no consideration for other drivers.  I'm at the point where I don't like Audis because of the kind of person who buys them.  Sort of like pit bulls and Rotties, nice dogs but attract bad owners.

This is so true. I don't know what it is about our city, but Audi drivers here are statistically have a much higher chance of being aggressive assholes on the road.

I remember noticing it when I was first learning to drive and every time I brought it up people were like "yeah, Audi drivers are insane".
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: brooklynmoney on September 01, 2021, 01:10:56 PM
My mother has owned a fleet of Lexus cars. Her 2004 is still on the road being driven by my bro. She drives the 2013 model. She has literally never had an issue. I believe they are as reliable as Toyotaís but have more luxury features. Would recommend. Her 2013 has as many safety and convenience features as my 2018 Subaru.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on September 01, 2021, 01:24:42 PM
Thanks for your thoughts folks. I was actually leaning more toward an A4/S4 lease than anything else, but even if most of the expensive stuff would be covered under that lease, it still sounds like a PITA taking it in for problems all the time. Another car I'm considering is the Toyota Camry V6--total vanilla car on the outside, but a great performer from what I've read. I've driven enough 4cyl Camrys to realize why they are such great selling vehicles, and I think would be less of a pain in the ass than many other marques mentioned here. I am still very curious to test-drive some of the Lexuses.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: PDXTabs on September 01, 2021, 01:28:28 PM
I don't endorse getting a luxury automobile, but if I did it would be through Care by Volvo (https://www.volvocars.com/us/care-by-volvo/).
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on September 01, 2021, 01:32:48 PM
However, I met a few Audiphiles along the way. One guy told me that he got his 2017 S6 as a CPO from Audi for 37K a couple years ago. He couldn't say enough for it. He said his son owns one as well and absolutely loves his too... I am looking for a sporty, fairly simple car (four door sports sedan) to replace my Volvo. My mechanic, who I have used for years, told me he loves the way they drive, but...expensive to fix! He recommended I get a Lexus instead. Other mechanics I have used have echoed this in even stronger terms...

This is an irrational thing to be sure, but I am 50, we are doing well financially (no debt, plenty of emergency fund, well-funded retirement accounts, pension, etc). This year has been a total POS. I want something NICE...

Listen to the wrench man... he deals with this daily. You're either a Mustachian looking for an anti-mustachian action validation or asking a someone here to facepunch you (with words, not actions).

Quote
Will an Audi drive me to the poorhouse? If I could get one for 35K that would give me a good 15+ years of service, I might consider it, but not if I am going to be hating it after five!

Good luck! I haven't seen much 10y+ Audis on the road, compared to BMW or MB. Most older luxury marques I see are Lexus/Infiniti/Acura/Buick/Cadillac/Lincoln.

Quote
Any thoughts? How do they rate against BMWs? Mercedes? Lexus?

Get a Lexus GS sport sedan. High reliability and long life. I see a lot of the older models on my commute.

Anecdata1: a good friend who works in finance is on his 3rd Audi, but he always leases (he gets killer deals through his employer). He said he'd never own one considering the issues they have constantly (he's had A3's and now a Q3).

Anecdata2: Two people in my workplace, who work in IT, have RS5 and S7, but they have had some issues with the lighting and "funny noises". One said he's never had any issues like this on his old Lexus, the other said the RS5 has had more minor niggles than his older BMW M3 which he gave his son. What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.

A funner project, if you want to wrench, would be to slap a turbocharger on the 740 and make it a RWD turbobricks sleeper. 240s and 740s are good simple platforms for this.

Does have a turbo; came with it new. However a NEW turbo (not with 200k miles) should certainly make in improvement. The 740 SE was a limited edition made for California only (I think)--limited to 500 or 1000 units. It is rare enough that I've actually had arguments with Volvo dealers who claimed, "Volvo never made a 740 SE. They only made a 940 SE." I replied, "How much do you want to bet? I will bet you a MILLION DOLLARS. Come over here and see it!"

 It has full leather interior, wood trim, the best instrument cluster I've ever seen (with huge ANALOG clock), sunroof, plenty of room, etc. It need paint (worried about rust in a few small areas at this point), new front seats, some other trim issues. It should also have suspension done soon, etc. I have paid 4000$ so far this year for various repairs (AC - EXPENSIVE, EGR for failed smog, etc.). Another thing I worry about is safety compared to newer cars. Not sure that 30 year old airbag would deploy if needed for one thing. In any case, it would probably need about 10K for the paint, interior and other stuff...I am considering it. It would be a cool car to take to Radwood one year.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on September 01, 2021, 02:07:07 PM
Thanks for your thoughts folks. I was actually leaning more toward an A4/S4 lease than anything else, but even if most of the expensive stuff would be covered under that lease, it still sounds like a PITA taking it in for problems all the time. Another car I'm considering is the Toyota Camry V6--total vanilla car on the outside, but a great performer from what I've read. I've driven enough 4cyl Camrys to realize why they are such great selling vehicles, and I think would be less of a pain in the ass than many other marques mentioned here. I am still very curious to test-drive some of the Lexuses.
Heh, there's an old car idiom that is frequently employed when some new performance car comes out: "Still slower than a V6 Accord."  Since Honda recently dropped the V6 option for the Accord, I suppose we'll have to substitute "V6 Camry" in that statement.

The latest non-hybrid Camry claims 28/39 mpg.  That's as good as my old '94 civic that weighed 40% less.  The hybrid claims over 50mpg.  And if you opt for the V6, you get a 5.1 second 0-60.
My mother has owned a fleet of Lexus cars. Her 2004 is still on the road being driven by my bro. She drives the 2013 model. She has literally never had an issue. I believe they are as reliable as Toyotaís but have more luxury features. Would recommend. Her 2013 has as many safety and convenience features as my 2018 Subaru.
That's because Lexuses *are* Toyotas :)

I have a friend who works at a transmission place.  They do everything from passenger cars to fire trucks (seriously!).  He says they *never* see Toyotas.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: jeninco on September 01, 2021, 02:57:05 PM
We've owned a couple of Audis. With the caveat that our mechanic is a total Audi-lover, they've served us really well. With the there caveat that we don't drive much: we bike commute most days, and the cars get started up a few times/week, at most.

We had a '95 Audi 90 Quattro that we kept until our oldest kid was off at college, a couple of years ago. That thing was shockingly bomber, and (again, considering that it had pretty low miles) far more reliable than a 20-year old car deserved to be. We finally gave it to NPR, mostly because it had no resale value and was reaching the age where every hose and gasket needed to be replaced, and it got 20 mpg. Taught both kids to drive a stick shift on it, too.

My midlife crisis car is a 2013 A3, Stick, 4-cylinder + turbo, bought used when it was 4 years or so old.  If it's driven sanely, it gets 30-35 mpg. If you drive it to deliberately engage the turbo, not so much.  I actually got it because there's a big of mandatory driving in my life (soccer games, ski patrolling) and I decided that my mandatory driving could be, you know, fun. Since it's an occasional thing, I'm still remembering to enjoy it when I do drive the car. It's pretty fun.  Also, it's fairly small, which means it's easy to park and stuff, and is much less of a big in-your-face kind of car.

We also bought a used Prius prime so MrInCO can occasionally commute to his new job. 55 mpg, or you can drive it 25-30 miles on a charge.  We mostly drive that one, because we're mostly responsible humans...
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: RWD on September 01, 2021, 03:17:22 PM
From a drivetrain perspective I think the newer Audis are pretty reliable. Dashboard Light (http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Audi_Q7.html) shows the 2012-2017 model years of Q7 to be better than average reliability. Though that JD Power IQS ranking is pretty dismal they did roughly average in the 2021 Dependability Study (2018 model years) (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2021-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds).

Obviously Lexus is going to be a safer choice in comparison. But they also haven't made many advancements in the last decade either. The 2022 Lexus GX 460 is still using an engine introduced in 2005.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: pdxvandal on September 01, 2021, 03:23:43 PM
Agree with nixing the Audi. My buddy has one and seems to put in $3-5k every year on repairs. I understand the draw ... they are sexy, good-looking cars. But I wouldn't touch them (or nearly all VWs) with a 10-foot pole.

Toyota, Lexus, Honda are great and even would look at Kia/Hyundai who have really closed the gap on reliability and performance. You might be able to say that about Ford too.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Christof on September 01, 2021, 03:29:50 PM
Just talked yesterday with a coworker about his Audi. He got his A3 15 years ago and has driven 380,000 km so far. No serious problems aside from recommended replacements.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ketchup on September 01, 2021, 04:03:29 PM
Seconding those mentioning Lexus as probably the most reasonable alternative while staying within the luxury car playpen.  I have a wealthy family member that bought one new years ago and has at least 300k on it now.  Hard to go wrong with a fancy Toyota.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Abe on September 01, 2021, 08:05:29 PM
I donít care about cars one bit other than safety and reliability. Full disclosure: bought a VW ID.4 because itís electric and relatively cheap compared to other electric SUVs, and I wanted to put my money where my mouth is regarding electric cars and climate change, etc.

As an outsider to car culture, sounds like audis arenít any better than other car brand in safety, and kind of suck for how much they cost. Also apparently get crap mileage. Looks like they finally got out of total garbage category to the average dump category, and target non-car people with excess cash.

If you need an ego boost go with a Lexus. Otherwise a Toyota. Theyíre basically the same except the former targets people with cash burning a hole in their pants. I have several family members with luxury cars and I have never been impressed with them
compared to what Iíve driven. Maybe Iím too parochial and thereís some extra feature I donít understand, but luxury cars seem like pains in the butt for above-mentioned reasons.

There you go, face punch.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: AccidentialMustache on September 01, 2021, 09:32:05 PM
@Abe may be on to something there. If you're okay renting for trips, an EV, even something with a fairly modest range (100-200 mi) would probably do grand. Not cheap, but neither are luxury cars. At those ranges, it is unlikely to do a road trip well, but that's clearly not a priority or you would have already replaced your car.

If you're in a situation you can tolerate the risk of fire (eg, you'd park outside anyway and you can put in a level 2 charger and get distance from anything combustible), I'd guess it's about to be a buyer's market for the Bolt EV, given the recall.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: GreenEggs on September 01, 2021, 11:49:36 PM
I have a 2018 Audi A6 3.0 that I bought as a CPO which hasn't had any issues yet.  It gets 30+mpg on the highway, regardless of how fast I drive.  It's very comfortable for 4, has plenty of power, handles great, and has AWD.  It's been a treat to own and drive. 


Having said all that, I believe that the next vehicle we buy will most likely be electric. 
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Malcat on September 02, 2021, 05:42:23 AM
I'm sorry, did you say "lease"???

I'm assuming you have a good reason to choose lease???
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: BussoV6 on September 02, 2021, 06:32:31 AM
Just talked yesterday with a coworker about his Audi. He got his A3 15 years ago and has driven 380,000 km so far. No serious problems aside from recommended replacements.

I think where you live determines the Audi support that is available. I see you live in Germany. I live in South Africa where almost every local indi mechanic is well versed in the maintenance of VW products, which includes Audi. There are quite a few autoparts national store chains that bring in OEM parts bypassing the expensive dealer prices. Hatchback gas struts from Audi - $100 each. Same part from a non-franchised supplier - $12 each.

My partner has had 2 Audi A3 hatchbacks (basically a VW Golf GTi). The first lasted 10 years and 120,000 km before it was stolen. Her current A3 is 16 years old with about 130,000 km. However, my brother in law also has a 16 year old A3 with 335,000 km on it. Maintenance has been fairly light on both of these, with regular fluid changes.

I'm on my 4th Audi S3 hatchback company car. However, they are leased and changed every 3 years. Nothing except regular service and new tyres needed.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Kris on September 02, 2021, 02:15:31 PM
I have a 2008 Audi that I have had since 2011. I bought it mostly because it is a convertible, which I wanted, and because I loved the way it drove.

Ten years later, I still love it. My plan is to drive it into the ground. I hope to get at least five more years out of it, and preferably ten. But yeah, any maintenance is expensive as hell. Thankfully, I haven't had much of that.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: simonsez on September 02, 2021, 03:46:50 PM
What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.
I know two people who own Audis that they purchased new.  One's a relative, one's a friend.  Both of them are very, very particular about their cars.  They don't let anyone else drive them, they're constantly worried that something might scratch them, etc.

That happens with all luxury cars. A friend just got a Tesla and he's now "that guy" that takes 2 parking spaces at the rear of the lot. (It's a Tesla, not a $500k Ferrari.)
I think that's funny since I would expect the person who takes up two spots regularly to have MORE scratches and dings as it would be a magnet for other people to key it, leave nasty notes, not be as careful with their shopping carts, get followed by over-aggressive drivers, etc.  Not that I approve of this behavior (either the excessive parking or the retribution for it), just saying. 

If the parking lots have that much free space on the ends, parking in a space normally with no one around would seem like it would work just fine.  Other drivers who also like an abundance of parking space aren't going to park in the spot right next to it.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Homer on September 02, 2021, 07:18:11 PM
I love them.
Great experience with vw and Audi both, and we keep all our cars at least 10 years. I would say (and I donít actually know if this is different than other brands) - once we get to around 10 years, the little things that do fail (even things like cosmetic plastic / body stuff) can be extremely expensive. I have had basically zero problems in first 10 years on all our cars, aside from things directly caused by Chicago potholes that could swallow an SUV. I kept my 2006 Audi for 13 years and it was mechanically perfect when I sold it (but it was getting expensive).
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Just Joe on September 03, 2021, 11:47:52 AM
What actually got me listening to them was them complaining about how much time and effort it goes into babying and cleaning and being careful with a new car, sometimes borderline obsessive.
I know two people who own Audis that they purchased new.  One's a relative, one's a friend.  Both of them are very, very particular about their cars.  They don't let anyone else drive them, they're constantly worried that something might scratch them, etc.

I don't have time or energy to add that kind of mental stress to my life. 

That's one of the benefits of owning an older car--scratches, dings, and minor dents don't bother me one whit.  Kid opens a door too fast and whacks our other car?  I care more about the carelessness than the ding.  Soccer cleats scuff up the door sills?  I won't even notice. Need to load up some second-hand furniture?  No worries.

Buy something nice if you like. We have an seven year old Acura with 107K reliable miles now.

We also have a couple 20 year old cars that we love b/c we aren't putting any miles on the Acura when we are driving them. No worries about them. We keep them clean and maintained. They are reliable and presentable. Resale approaching nil.

The Acura we reserve for fun trips. Bigger, comfortable, fast and quiet. And gets 28-29 mpg on the highway surprisingly for a three row SUV. We bought it with ~40K miles.

One of the older cars will become a first car for teen#2. Their starter car. Future cars are on their dime. We carpool so we really only need one car 95% of the time.

FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ketchup on September 03, 2021, 12:52:11 PM
FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
This is extremely true in pretty much all dimensions of cars.  They're safer, faster, more reliable, more comfortable, more efficient, and have more bells and/or whistles.  Even just exterior paint/rust resistance has come a long way.  I saw way more super rusty shitty looking cars even ten years ago.  Now I see barely any visibly rusty cars at all, and I live in salty northern IL.  My 20 year old Volvo is just now starting to show paint damage due to age, and still zero rust.

Don't get me wrong, older cars have their charm and some are great.  But on the whole newer cars are excellent all around, and it took this stubborn cheapass a while to really appreciate it.  Only thing that's gone down is visibility if your body proportions and height don't match the car.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on September 04, 2021, 09:20:48 AM
FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
I don't very often, and usually "recent" means "at least 10 years old," as many of the people in my circles are also pretty frugal :)  But yes, I've noticed it for sure.  I have a coworker who drives a 12(?) year old hyundai, and even that feels so much nicer than my '95 Corolla!

FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
Don't get me wrong, older cars have their charm and some are great.  But on the whole newer cars are excellent all around, and it took this stubborn cheapass a while to really appreciate it.  Only thing that's gone down is visibility if your body proportions and height don't match the car.
Oh my goodness, that's something that positively drives me nuts when I get into a more modern car.  I can hardly see anything, compared to my car!  The back window especially feels like it's a gun slit in a bunker!  No wonder the feds mandated backup cameras starting in 2018!
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Malcat on September 04, 2021, 09:26:51 AM
FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
I don't very often, and usually "recent" means "at least 10 years old," as many of the people in my circles are also pretty frugal :)  But yes, I've noticed it for sure.  I have a coworker who drives a 12(?) year old hyundai, and even that feels so much nicer than my '95 Corolla!

FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
Don't get me wrong, older cars have their charm and some are great.  But on the whole newer cars are excellent all around, and it took this stubborn cheapass a while to really appreciate it.  Only thing that's gone down is visibility if your body proportions and height don't match the car.
Oh my goodness, that's something that positively drives me nuts when I get into a more modern car.  I can hardly see anything, compared to my car!  The back window especially feels like it's a gun slit in a bunker!  No wonder the feds mandated backup cameras starting in 2018!

It's so true. I was driving an 80s car, which was a death trap, sure, but man, the visibility was stunning. You can see so much when you don't have airbags and safe frames.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Maverick1 on September 04, 2021, 01:01:46 PM
As someone who works for a group that owns 3 Cadillac dealerships, yes Audiís are facepunchworthy!  You should consider a Cadillac CT5 :)
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: TempusFugit on September 04, 2021, 01:51:45 PM
I had a 2001 Passat, which was the same chassis as the A4. I got it as a CPO in 2004 and once I got all the things fixed under warranty the next 3 years it was almost completely "trouble free" until I sold it in 2013. What I mean by "trouble free" is "nothing going wrong that I couldn't fix myself", did timing belt, ran into a curb so replaced the front suspension, replaced the brakes, etc.

My Dad's on his 3rd A4, I think. His verdict has always been "I'll never get one of these again", but then he does anyway. He no longer does his own work and service is super expensive.

My first new car was a 2001 Passat. I had it for years (100K miles) and I liked the car but it did have some issues.  It burned through headlights constantly (they were always-on running lights but they provided most of the illumination for night driving).  I also had to replace all the ignition coils (under warrantee, thankfully).  The worst thing though was that it suffered from 'oil sludge build up' even though I changed the oil regularly. The manufacturer sent out a warning a few years into my ownership that this was a potential problem if you didn't use exactly the right oil in every change.  Well, I hadn't and at the end I experienced a couple of alerts when the oil pressure dropped while I was driving and I had to pull over, stop the engine and let things settle and clear whatever orifice was getting clogged by gunk before I could restart and drive again. 
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Just Joe on September 05, 2021, 09:54:37 AM
FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
I don't very often, and usually "recent" means "at least 10 years old," as many of the people in my circles are also pretty frugal :)  But yes, I've noticed it for sure.  I have a coworker who drives a 12(?) year old hyundai, and even that feels so much nicer than my '95 Corolla!

FWIW - have you driven a recent "normal" car? A Chevy Impala / Honda Accord / Toyota Camry or Avalon? Everything is pretty nice these days compared to 1992 or 1999. Car markers finally got serious about NVH so most cars are quiet and comfortable.
Don't get me wrong, older cars have their charm and some are great.  But on the whole newer cars are excellent all around, and it took this stubborn cheapass a while to really appreciate it.  Only thing that's gone down is visibility if your body proportions and height don't match the car.
Oh my goodness, that's something that positively drives me nuts when I get into a more modern car.  I can hardly see anything, compared to my car!  The back window especially feels like it's a gun slit in a bunker!  No wonder the feds mandated backup cameras starting in 2018!

That's the truth. Our 1st gen CRV feels like driving a fishbowl compared to a more modern vehicle. The windows start halfway between my shoulder and elbow. Dash is very low too. It is also really slow at a traffic light compared to a good portion of the traffic which has 100+ more horsepower.

We had a late 90s VW and it ate lightbulbs for snacks. Don't know why. The alternator was not overcharging. Our Honda of almost the same age still has original bulbs all over.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Ron Scott on September 07, 2021, 03:58:32 PM
I still maintain that being frugal for retirees has more to do with the withdrawal rate than absolute dollars spent, but some habits die hard.

My wife and I never got excited about fancy restaurants, preferring to eat at home or a friendís than to splurge on food with a lot of butter and salt and overspend on drinks. But I now draw the line with cars and furniture. The Germans will not get you bang for buck but theyíre a great drive. Toyotas (been there!) donít dieÖyou just get tired of them.

To each his ownÖ
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: tjscanlon on September 08, 2021, 08:07:29 AM
This is coming from the perspective of someone who enjoys cars and I enjoy "putzing" on them.

My wife and I have owned an Audi 100cs (2.8), 1 A8 (4.2), 2 A8L's (4.2), 2 A6's (2.7T).  All were purchased used with about 50K miles on them.  I really enjoyed them all.  I had transmission problems with the A8 (1998 - 1st yr for that model), but other than that didn't have any major problems.  I don't recall any electrical problems.  The issues i had were mostly mechanical, ie a suspension bushing, turnk lifts, etc..   The 2000's had sensitive O2 sensors which would throw Check Engine Lights and require replacement, but I had that on other brands as well from that time period so Audi's may have been worse, but many were having similar issues at same time.

I always bought used - they were clean but not without a scratch:-) so I didn't freak out if they got another scuff mark.  They were great driving cars and the interiors were great.  I drove about 30k + miles a year covering a mulit state sales territory in Northern US so I was in my car a bit and in inclement weather at times.

I loved the Audi's and really enjoyed driving them and working on them - there are a lot of great forums and help.  If you have a problem, it is likely someone else already and has provided a how to guide on fixing it.  The A8 forum on QuattroWorld was outstanding with some exceptionally knowledgeable contributors (similar to MMM) that I got to know virtually and my life was richer for it.

Your situation and passions are likely very different from mine so take the above as coming from my perspective and maybe not worth anything to you - good luck with YOUR decision and hopefully you enjoy the process.  Their are a ton of neat cars out there:-)

Tom
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: EliteZags on September 13, 2021, 05:56:02 PM
you can get a couple years old Jaguar XF for well under 30K,  comparatively less expensive and more unique on the road thAN comparable Audi/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus sedans
have a 2015 for past 2 years only had to fix an oxygen sensor under warranty so far
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: RWD on September 13, 2021, 07:03:37 PM
you can get a couple years old Jaguar XF for well under 30K,  comparatively less expensive and more unique on the road the comparable Audi/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus sedans
have a 2015 for past 2 years only had to fix an oxygen sensor under warranty so far
Jaguars are definitely not known to be reliable. You've been quite lucky with your 2015 XF.
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Jaguar_XF.html
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: Malcat on September 14, 2021, 05:33:14 AM
you can get a couple years old Jaguar XF for well under 30K,  comparatively less expensive and more unique on the road the comparable Audi/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus sedans
have a 2015 for past 2 years only had to fix an oxygen sensor under warranty so far
Jaguars are definitely not known to be reliable. You've been quite lucky with your 2015 XF.
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Jaguar_XF.html

Owning a Jaguar was the reason I gave up loving cars and bought a used Toyota Corolla with rolly windows.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: ObviouslyNotAGolfer on September 14, 2021, 09:04:56 PM
Hi folks,

thanks for the input. I still have not made any decisions. My old beater Volvo is still running well (the AC still is cool), and car prices are still sky high. Based on all input I have received--from my mechanic, posts here, other car-fanatic friends--I am leaning toward a Lexus CPO, maybe an ES 350/hybrid in the 30-35K price range. AT this point in my life, I am exhausted with hassles, inconveniences, and various problems blowing up in my face. A Lexus CPO with 2 years/20K miles coverage seems a good way to minimize any hassles. I would still of course have to test drive it/them first. I want to arrange an extended test drive--a week or so--but don't know if this is feasible (I don't expect it for free) at this point in time with the enormous demand...
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: DadJokes on September 15, 2021, 04:59:30 AM
I have zero knowledge on anything about the vehicles, other than the fact that the name makes me think of belly buttons. So now I just call them belly button cars.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: TheYeti on September 15, 2021, 02:45:05 PM
I am an Engineer in the automotive industry and currently work for one of the companies mentioned in this thread. I have worked for other automotive companies not yet mentioned as well. With regard to vehicles the only more controversial topic you could have started is: GM vs. Ford vs. Dodge which one sucks more?

All of the vehicles (from a major manufacturer) that you would buy new today will have similar quality. Everyone has a story about how brand X broke down on them and cost a ton of money. The opposite side too. I had an X that went for 600k miles. This is the equivalent of saying: ‘My father abused me so all men are bad.’ There is the off chance that there will be some ignition switch or airbag issue but there is no way to know that today. In general, the higher the initial purchase price the more you will likely pay for service and repairs. Lexus cost more than Toyota so the dealer will charge you more for switching out the same exact part on the Lexus. It’s a branding thing.

Decide what you like based on your priorities and go with that.
Title: Re: Audis - Love 'em? Hate 'em? Facepunchworthy?
Post by: dignam on September 16, 2021, 01:47:10 PM
I can't speak for Audis specifically, but OP, it sounds like you just want us to validate buying (or convince you not to buy) an Audi.  I will provide some caveats below, as I have owned vehicles of all different brands and types.  All purchased used except one.

In my life, I've had:

-4 Jeeps (1 XJ, 1 TJ, 2 Grand Cherokees);  The 4.0L remains one of my favorite engines of all time.  Beyond that, there were always little things breaking on Jeeps, but they never left me stranded.  Very easy to fix myself.
-1 Dodge (Dart); almost left me stranded but I was able to limp it to get repaired under warranty.  Decent car otherwise.
-1 Mazda; some minor electrical gremlins, but otherwise a solid car
-1 BMW; purchased CPO, had the 3.0L turbo which was just a rocket and a blast to drive.  I had *GASP* ZERO (0) issues in the 2.5 years I owned it.  Sold last year during the used car price craziness for almost what I paid for it.
-2 Fords (well, one was a Mercury). Currently drive an Edge which is probably my favorite vehicle I've owned.  It just feels solid, is stupidly quick (2.7L turbo), very versatile, and loaded and comfy.

My experience is not really what you hear about for some of those brands.  Point being, most modern cars are solid and will last a long time if maintained.  Just do some research, test cars out, and get what you want/what fits in your budget.