Author Topic: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?  (Read 26965 times)

waltworks

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At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« on: February 19, 2025, 06:36:56 PM »
Subject says it all. How bad would things have to get before you'd consider it? What warning signs/triggers would you be looking out for? Stock market crash? President declares martial law? 100% inflation? Something else?

Our kids are super high achiever someday scientists/engineers but I'm not sure their hard work in school is going to be worth anything going forward here, given that we're apparently cutting off funding for science writ large. And unlike the last Trump admin, I'm not confident we're coming out of this with our country intact in any recognizable form.

Am I paranoid? Thoughts? Also, if you were to bug out, where would you go? We speak Spanish tolerably well so that might open up some options, I suppose.

-W

use2betrix

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2025, 06:50:53 PM »
If you want to help them, I would lead by being brave and showing resilience and the ability to adapt. Having this level of irrational fear right now and discussing “fleeing” seems like it could be seriously damaging.

Tasse

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2025, 06:53:34 PM »
Until the state is rounding up anyone who speaks against it, I stay and fight for people who can't flee.

fuzzy math

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2025, 06:56:56 PM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.


bacchi

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2025, 07:06:36 PM »
@ChpBstrd made a list elsewhere that might be relevant.

Watch the 2026 midterms. If the Democrats win the House, but they're barred from taking office, it's time.

Or if a constitutional convention is called and the proposed Amendments are for creating a registry of those who are LBGQT, or allowing Trump a 3rd term, or allowing Musk to become President, it's time.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2025, 07:22:19 PM »
Flee to where exactly?

We made the decision to be nomadic and spend most of our time outside the USA before the current administration took over......current state makes it less likely we'll settle back down in the USA.......but for people with families who think they can just decide to move wherever they want and prosper......it's not that simple.

Fru-Gal

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2025, 07:24:52 PM »
Unfortunately there's no perfect way to predict when to leave. History has countless examples we can study. Depends a ton on your state -- I can only imagine the situation is dire in some of them. All you can do is have your passports in order and a plan. Mexico will probably take in Americans. Canada, not so sure about that.

My adult kids have said they will stay and fight against any dictatorship in America. Spouse is in one of Trump's undesirable categories so they might have to be the first to leave the country.

From a prepping standpoint, I still think there's enough open interior in the US for anyone to bug out to. During the Depression, a lot of people lived in the National Parks.

GilesMM

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2025, 07:42:06 PM »
If others flee, I will swoop in.

Morning Glory

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2025, 07:59:25 PM »
It's a coin toss. If it gets that bad you probably won't know until it's too late. Trans people statrted having trouble getting passports the first week,  which is really scary to me. If a lot of people start leaving other countries will make it harder to enter, and the regime may make it harder to leave.

Getting your affairs in order for a possible (orderly and planned)  move abroad  to pursue better education and career opportunities for your kids is not an irrational move, whether or not you think shit is about to hit the fan. Research places and their requirements, renew passports, fix little things around the house in case you decide to sell it, downsize your stuff, look into which bank accounts and credit  cards expats and long term travelers use, even go spend a month in one of your possible destinations, etc.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 08:21:05 PM by Morning Glory »

HPstache

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2025, 10:32:58 PM »
I would never flee.  I could imagine a scenario where I would bear arms and easily retake the government with what would be liberals and conservatives alike, but I would never flee.

MrGreen

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2025, 11:35:10 PM »
I'm kinda hoping this is our Brexit moment. People thought this is what they wanted, but when a year or two passes and they are fully enmeshed in the consequences of their actions (higher prices, government service degradation, impact to world standing, trade, etc.), I'm wondering if they will realize the grass is not indeed greener on the other side. Some things, like our influence in the world, we may never be able to fully recover, but I think that if there is real regret, much of what is happening can be undone.

simonsez

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2025, 12:09:55 AM »
I'm kinda hoping this is our Brexit moment. People thought this is what they wanted, but when a year or two passes and they are fully enmeshed in the consequences of their actions (higher prices, government service degradation, impact to world standing, trade, etc.), I'm wondering if they will realize the grass is not indeed greener on the other side. Some things, like our influence in the world, we may never be able to fully recover, but I think that if there is real regret, much of what is happening can be undone.
Agreed, maybe it's due to some human-capacity/societal progression/sophistication or technological capabilities that is biasing/distorting perception but it seems like the political pendulum swings keep reaching higher and higher amplitudes (though I tend to think about things much more in my personal circles of control after a long walk or good bike ride).

I'd guess the R party will already lose ground in the 2026 midterms and 2028 POTUS simply as a result of the internal federal chaos now and if it continues for any period of time. There are always more people in the political middle than seems to be given credit for - maybe because by definition it's not as polarizing or loud as a group on average that is compared with the more "Red til I'm dead" and "blue no matter who" crowds.

Trump has lost an election before so I know democracy, at least some form of it (we can certainly quibble about electoral college and other voting systems, voting districting, etc.), does exist and I have plenty of faith any bumps in the road are simply that and that living basically the life I want is possible.  I'm certainly not leaving the US permanently anytime soon, that's wild!

EliteZags

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2025, 12:25:11 AM »
when they actually start cracking down on tax evasion

seattlecyclone

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2025, 01:33:53 AM »
So...I'm sure that in Germany in the late 1930s there were a bunch of folks who felt their "spidey sense" start tingling and left while that was still pretty easy, while there were others who said that first group was overreacting, stuck around until emigration was more restricted, and they ended up dying in camps. I'm absolutely not saying that's the path we're on here today, but I'm also much less confident that won't happen here than I was a year ago.

As a straight white dude I'm pretty confident that I and my family will be among the last targets of a totalitarian regime as long as I don't protest any changes too hard, so I'm not personally thinking of uprooting my kids in the middle of a school year at this time. Can I really accuse trans people I know of overreacting if they're currently looking at ways to spend a year or three abroad while we wait to see how everything plays out here at home? Sadly, no.

Omy

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2025, 04:06:25 AM »
I would like to leave, but it's not easy to do. There are a ton of logistics to deal with (and I don't even have kids).

My biggest challenge is deciding on a location that is more stable than here. We don't speak any other languages and most countries don't make it really easy to stay for any length of time.  And that will likely get worse as more of us decide to bug out.

If I were you, I'd start looking to buy real estate in your favorite Spanish speaking country. Having a "vacation" place will give you an easy out if you decide it's time to go.

Metalcat

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2025, 04:34:50 AM »
When to go entirely depends on your reasons for going.

AuspiciousEight

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2025, 05:03:51 AM »
I will leave when I am no longer permitted to buy food at the grocery store, or when soldiers are walking around killing random completely innocent people.

Honestly I'm not even sure where I would go anyway. The only viable option seems to be Canada, and if things really got that bad the Canadians will probably be building a wall also to keep us out anyway.

wageslave23

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2025, 05:32:07 AM »
I would say when you are forced to get an experimental vaccine that only lessens the severity of symptoms for a disease with a 99.9% survivability rate or the government will not allow you to make a living.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2025, 05:52:02 AM »
I would say when you are forced to get an experimental vaccine that only lessens the severity of symptoms for a disease with a 99.9% survivability rate or the government will not allow you to make a living.

Where did you go?

wageslave23

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2025, 06:21:58 AM »
I would say when you are forced to get an experimental vaccine that only lessens the severity of symptoms for a disease with a 99.9% survivability rate or the government will not allow you to make a living.

Where did you go?

Haha nowhere. Just pointing out that if you can't spot the crazies on BOTH sides, then you probably are one.

ATtiny85

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2025, 06:24:40 AM »
when they actually start cracking down on tax evasion

Just saying "never" would have saved some typing and meant the same thing.

I'll never flee the US. I can't think of a single scenario that would put leaving on my list. But I do get a kick out of reading these threads.


Laura33

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2025, 09:00:02 AM »
I am looking into the Portuguese Golden Visa.  Unfortunately, we can't actually do it now, because DH would lose his security clearance and job.

I am not worried about jack-booted thugs at my door.  (Yet)  I am rich and white and straight, and therefore likely personally safe.

What I am worried about is the destruction of the rule of law and of institutions that we all rely on more than we realize in order to keep our basic rights secure.  And I don't just mean personal rights, but things like property rights, free commerce, and all of those other traditional rights that make the country go and keep us stable.  Unelected private citizens are being given unrestricted access to vast amounts of sensitive information, and they are not handling it with any appropriate degree of information security.  And the agencies designed to protect our bank accounts and tax returns and, you know, nuclear arsenal are entirely decimated and have been intentionally placed in a situation where they are literally unable to respond to any crisis.  We have a lot of enemies in the world.  I cannot believe that some of them are not already taking advantage of the giant holes in our information security systems to find ways to hurt us, be it physically or financially.

I cannot believe that we ran a whole election based on #ButHerEmails!, and all the people who were completely up in arms over that are celebrating in the streets now that it's their guy doing that times 1,000,000.  And the courts -- the supposed check against overreaching executive AND congressional power -- are doing absolutely nothing to stop what is clearly illegal activity.  By the time anyone actually declares this is illegal, the harm will have already been done. 

The fundamental problem is that destabilization is the point, not just an unintended consequence.  Since the '90s, there has been a sliver of the Republican party that believes the federal government is the root of all evil, and that its powers must be dramatically restrained, by any means necessary.  They followed the "starve the beast" concept for a while, forcing tax cuts that we couldn't pay for in an effort to compel budget cuts elsewhere (this is when the party lost its concept of fiscal conservatism, btw -- again, doing stuff we can't pay for was the point, so that deep cuts would be required elsewhere.  But that theory overlooked the reality that Congress can just choose to spend more, which it did).  Now we have a direct slashing of the federal workforce that will cripple the agencies' ability to do their jobs.  Which, again, is the point.  Imagine you don't get your tax refund this year because the IRS can't process it in time.  Who are people going to blame?  Trump?  Nah -- it'll just be another example of the incompetence of the federal government, thus underscoring why all of these cuts were needed in the first place.  The less competent the goverment becomes, the more evidence we get of why the government is terrible and should be cut further.

Don't think that's going to happen?  I was reading about the fiasco at the Nuclear Security Administration -- firing key folks, then realizing they needed to rehire them, and not being able to contact some of the folks to come back.  You know what the most common reaction was?  Not:  how the fuck can you just indiscriminately whack at the people who hold the keys to our nuclear arsenal?  No.  It was:  how incompetent must you be not to be able to contact your own people.  And some of these comments are from middle-of-the-road, not-particularly-Trump-ites.  [The answer, btw, is that the firings happened on Friday, and Monday was a holiday, and people who've just been summarily fired may not be rushing to pick up the phone when their former employer calls on a holiday weekend]

 

Raenia

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2025, 09:07:13 AM »
If Brainworm succeeds at banning psychiatric drugs, we're out. DH can't function without his SNRI. Been there, tried that, not going back.

Fortunately, he also has a British passport and family in England, so leaving is a realistic plan.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 09:47:05 AM by Raenia »

Paper Chaser

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2025, 09:09:31 AM »
I have no plans, but I'd say that if you feel like you could consistently have a higher quality of life somewhere else, then go for it.

Turtle

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2025, 09:12:54 AM »
My grown children are unlikely to flee, which lessens the likelihood that I will do it. 

But I also haven’t consolidated my portfolio to one place because I don’t want it all legally based out of the same state.

At this point, I don’t think there’s anything paranoid about exploring your options.

tooqk4u22

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2025, 09:19:16 AM »
Subject says it all. How bad would things have to get before you'd consider it? What warning signs/triggers would you be looking out for? Stock market crash? President declares martial law? 100% inflation? Something else?

Our kids are super high achiever someday scientists/engineers but I'm not sure their hard work in school is going to be worth anything going forward here, given that we're apparently cutting off funding for science writ large. And unlike the last Trump admin, I'm not confident we're coming out of this with our country intact in any recognizable form.

Am I paranoid? Thoughts? Also, if you were to bug out, where would you go? We speak Spanish tolerably well so that might open up some options, I suppose.

-W

I think the biggest challenge is that by the time the signs (whatever they are) are obvious it will be way to late. And by the time those happen you will likely be a lot poorer than you thought you were and likelihood of global instability combined with anti-American sentiment and retaliatory practices will be in full swing such that other countries and their citizens will not want you and may even seek to harm you.

You may be paranoid but things feel unlike they ever have in my lifetime, so maybe not.  But if things are going to unravel then now would be the time.....

roomtempmayo

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2025, 09:26:25 AM »
We've been actively looking and occasionally applying for jobs outside of the US since Obama's second term.  Our hope is to ride out part of the next four years in Japan and Italy, if we can figure out a way to make that work.  I wouldn't call it flight, just more of a desire not to be here right now.

Actual red lines, like pack the car and get gone today, would be physical safety (highly unlikely) or getting blacklisted because of our work (unlikely, but possible, as the admin is showing a desire to go after people who do work they don't like).

Bugout option is that my wife qualifies for citizenship by blood in the country of her father's origin, and our daughter would similarly qualify through my wife.  It sounds like I could pretty easily get a permanent visa.  There's still family property and maybe even a house in the old country, and we could live there super cheap indefinately.  I'm not exactly planning for it, but it's nice to know we have options.

Cranky

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2025, 09:59:15 AM »
I’m old. I’m not going anywhere. I might as well die in the Internment Camp as start over.

But I might well encourage my kids to leave.

iris lily

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2025, 10:14:17 AM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.

This is why we have guns. If the gooberment goons want to get you, they will get you, but we can take some down in that altercation.

Laura33

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2025, 10:41:54 AM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.

This is why we have guns. If the gooberment goons want to get you, they will get you, but we can take some down in that altercation.

Well, there's a false sense of security.  Going door-to-door is so passe.  Drone strikes are so much easier. 

Sandi_k

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2025, 10:59:20 AM »

From a prepping standpoint, I still think there's enough open interior in the US for anyone to bug out to. During the Depression, a lot of people lived in the National Parks.

They didn't have drones in the Depression. I am skeptical that we live in a world where you can truly remain unfound.

Sandi_k

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2025, 11:18:58 AM »
Pragmatically - where can you even keep your money? With FATCA, you are required to reveal any funds kept outside the country. And Switzerland now discloses US citizen accounts to the IRS.

Most recently, the FEMA clawback from NYC/Chase is really disturbing.

https://apnews.com/article/fema-migrant-hotels-new-york-musk-immigration-a41f36b2bfdc0bb78a5859bcec8dfb72

"...City Comptroller Lander said no one in his office had been aware that the federal government had access to the city’s bank account...."

Well, now the Muskrats have access to ALL bank accounts. So can we establish accounts with banks based outside of the country, which we disclose, but which the US government CANNOT claw back?

Kmp2

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2025, 11:27:45 AM »
Pragmatically - where can you even keep your money? With FATCA, you are required to reveal any funds kept outside the country. And Switzerland now discloses US citizen accounts to the IRS.

Most recently, the FEMA clawback from NYC/Chase is really disturbing.

https://apnews.com/article/fema-migrant-hotels-new-york-musk-immigration-a41f36b2bfdc0bb78a5859bcec8dfb72

"...City Comptroller Lander said no one in his office had been aware that the federal government had access to the city’s bank account...."

Well, now the Muskrats have access to ALL bank accounts. So can we establish accounts with banks based outside of the country, which we disclose, but which the US government CANNOT claw back?

And this is why being married to an American (dual citizen, born and raised in Canada but registered by his US parent as a foreign birth abroad)... sucks!
Especially when they have to report our joint stuff as theirs too!


GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2025, 11:56:27 AM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.

This is why we have guns. If the gooberment goons want to get you, they will get you, but we can take some down in that altercation.

Well, there's a false sense of security.  Going door-to-door is so passe.  Drone strikes are so much easier.

I'd just poison the water supply, myself.

Kmp2

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2025, 12:41:41 PM »
I'd just poison the water supply, myself.

I mean isn't that what firing all the people who ensure safe water does?

edited to add.. Walkerton 2.0

GuitarStv

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2025, 12:47:13 PM »
I'd just poison the water supply, myself.

I mean isn't that what firing all the people who ensure safe water does?

edited to add.. Walkerton 2.0

Nobody could foresee that though.  Nobody.

Fru-Gal

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2025, 12:49:59 PM »

From a prepping standpoint, I still think there's enough open interior in the US for anyone to bug out to. During the Depression, a lot of people lived in the National Parks.

They didn't have drones in the Depression. I am skeptical that we live in a world where you can truly remain unfound.

I agree, if the experience of the last (assumed at the time) uncontacted Yahi Indian in California is any indication. While the Gold Rush came with widespread massacres, Ishi and his family were able to hide for 10 years using all sorts of subterfuge, hiding their cooking smoke, frequently hiking in streams, etc. Miners were absolutely crawling over every inch of the Sierra Foothills, however. Ultimately they caught and killed his mother and family. (Now, this is well before drones. Perhaps one reason they were caught was because his mother was disabled.)

Three years later, in mourning, he turned himself in to the Oroville Sherriff. The University of California took an interest in him and he was housed at the museum for two years, sharing a ton of information with anthropologists, until he died of TB.

We venerate the experience of Anne Frank but not the experience of Ishi because history is writtten by the victors.

That said, understanding modern surveillance, I do think it would be easy to hide in untravelled areas, of which there are many in the US. Ishi's family couldn't hide because a huge wave of motivated miners were searching for gold. But if you read stories of lost hikers, it is not easy or quick to find someone well off the beaten track.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 01:17:46 PM by Fru-Gal »

fuzzy math

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2025, 02:39:36 PM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.

This is why we have guns. If the gooberment goons want to get you, they will get you, but we can take some down in that altercation.

I lost mine in a boating accident

LifeHappens

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2025, 02:42:06 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

SunnyDays

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2025, 03:01:53 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

I’m currently reading “We Were the Lucky Ones” by Georgia Hunter, a semi autobiography about the invasion of Poland by the Germans and Soviets in WW II.  Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes, which the Germans moved into, and forced into small ghetto areas, leading to serious overcrowding and disease outbreaks.  Those were the ones who didn’t have the foresight or resources to get out of the country beforehand.  I feel like I’m seeing the future that might be about to unfold.

HPstache

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2025, 03:05:05 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

I’m currently reading “We Were the Lucky Ones” by Georgia Hunter, a semi autobiography about the invasion of Poland by the Germans and Soviets in WW II.  Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes, which the Germans moved into, and forced into small ghetto areas, leading to serious overcrowding and disease outbreaks.  Those were the ones who didn’t have the foresight or resources to get out of the country beforehand.  I feel like I’m seeing the future that might be about to unfold.

Just for the record, since you are seeing the future unfold this way... who is going to invade the US, take over our homes and force us to move to small, overcrowded, disease-ridden ghetto areas?

Scandium

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2025, 03:16:24 PM »
I will flee if the govt goes door to door shooting everyone in the head.

Do I think that's going to happen? No. I think you're being paranoid - you asked.

This is why we have guns. If the gooberment goons want to get you, they will get you, but we can take some down in that altercation.

Well, there's a false sense of security.  Going door-to-door is so passe.  Drone strikes are so much easier.

No way, do you know how much hellfire missiles cost! We're supposed to be cutting costs here. At least bullets are relatively cheap. Though I don't quite see the benefit to "tha gov'mnt" in shooting random people for no reason.

SunnyDays

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2025, 03:38:44 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

I’m currently reading “We Were the Lucky Ones” by Georgia Hunter, a semi autobiography about the invasion of Poland by the Germans and Soviets in WW II.  Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes, which the Germans moved into, and forced into small ghetto areas, leading to serious overcrowding and disease outbreaks.  Those were the ones who didn’t have the foresight or resources to get out of the country beforehand.  I feel like I’m seeing the future that might be about to unfold.

Just for the record, since you are seeing the future unfold this way... who is going to invade the US, take over our homes and force us to move to small, overcrowded, disease-ridden ghetto areas?

I don’t think anyone is going to invade the US.  The enemy already lives there.

With all the government departments being gutted and data destroyed, I could see it being possible that one day you can no longer prove ownership of property.  Ghettos aren’t necessarily on the agenda but  maybe “redistribution” of residences.

mtnrider

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2025, 03:45:10 PM »
Not planning on fleeing.  I figure I can do my part to try to turn things from the inside.  But: Why did Einstein leave Germany?

He knew that his specific ethnicity was targeted, and that he was specifically threatened.  Most of us won't be in that situation, but someone like Alexander Vindman probably has a plan B ready.

HPstache

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2025, 04:15:57 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

I’m currently reading “We Were the Lucky Ones” by Georgia Hunter, a semi autobiography about the invasion of Poland by the Germans and Soviets in WW II.  Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes, which the Germans moved into, and forced into small ghetto areas, leading to serious overcrowding and disease outbreaks.  Those were the ones who didn’t have the foresight or resources to get out of the country beforehand.  I feel like I’m seeing the future that might be about to unfold.

Just for the record, since you are seeing the future unfold this way... who is going to invade the US, take over our homes and force us to move to small, overcrowded, disease-ridden ghetto areas?

I don’t think anyone is going to invade the US.  The enemy already lives there.

With all the government departments being gutted and data destroyed, I could see it being possible that one day you can no longer prove ownership of property.  Ghettos aren’t necessarily on the agenda but  maybe “redistribution” of residences.

This is something you can actually envision happening?  You think that the data that is needed to prove property ownership will get lost because of of the work the DOGE is doing cancelling DEI funding and other contracts?

moustachebar

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2025, 04:40:34 PM »
I think it goes, "just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me"...

I have the same concern about this not being the place for educated people to live a full rich life and contribute to society.

My family's history is marked with escaping tsarist and communist purges, famine enforced by landlords and monarchs, bypassing racist quotas to enter and complying with alien enemy registration laws and discrimination here in the US. So my people did what they had to do and they made it out, but I'm aware that ones countrymen can be fickle. I also think human nature is unchanging. The US has been exceptional in what it has done, but reversion to the mean is likely. We're the same as others if we don't hew to our norms and constitution. We have to want to be different, and we no longer do. I don't see how we recover, but we might muddle along.

More immediately, I have real concerns about raids ostensibly rounding up undocumented folks. In addition to it being horrible for those families, I have seen no assurance that ICE is checking paperwork. So any citizen or legal resident, even a citizen going back generations, with ancestry from a nation that's a source of irregular migration right now (aka, looks 'foreign'), seems to me to be at risk of being picked up with no notification of close family. So even with a grandparent who was a citizen and fought in the army, I'm worried about sweeps. Now add in our country's history of civil asset forfeiture... So I'm trying to keep an eye on developments in that area. So far, not much news.

So no, I don't see you as paranoid. However, I'm aware the road of emigration is fraught, and I could easily impact my family's future negatively by either action or hesitation.

I did some very basic research into foreign accounts. I came up with very little good news but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough so far. For everything tax advantaged I think I'd have to cash out and pay the taxes, or find a broker ok with an overseas client. I know France recognizes Roth accounts as pensions. For taxable, investing in overseas mutual funds incurs heavy tax penalties. I know there are folks here who have gone abroad, but I haven't seen loss of details.

I have been pursuing dual citizenship for a few years, but countries are tightening restrictions. It is expensive and uncertain. Also, it's not like it's so easy to be an other in other countries. I also began visa applications for the family. That made it quite real and I hesitated at that point. What would actually compel my leaving? I don't know. I haven't found the line between preparing and executing. Going back to your point, I think it may be when my kid is ready for college. If we're going to go, it'll be better for them to be educated in the new country. I'll also be watching the midterms.

I should say, I'm not obsessing over the news, and am not on social media, so I'm not overreacting to propaganda. I do tend to catastrophize and overprepare, but then again that's how I fell in with mustachians... by assuming social security would no longer exist. Hasn't happened, yet.

Fru-Gal

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2025, 04:43:04 PM »
Ghettos aren’t on the agenda but planned communities, “company towns” run by billionaires, are. And Trump explicitly said he wants to build a massive concentration camp on Guantanamo. Anyone who is a recent non-white immigrant is feeling the possibility of getting rounded up in some way — at least, those who are paying attention. Others (a tiny minority, to be sure) in that same category were pretty sure they were safe so they voted for Trump.

SunnyDays

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2025, 04:54:20 PM »
My grandparents lived in Poland in 1939. For the next 17 years they had no choice about where they lived. It was labor camps, then refugee camps, then finally emigrating.

I am keenly aware no nation lasts forever and exit plans matter.

I’m currently reading “We Were the Lucky Ones” by Georgia Hunter, a semi autobiography about the invasion of Poland by the Germans and Soviets in WW II.  Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes, which the Germans moved into, and forced into small ghetto areas, leading to serious overcrowding and disease outbreaks.  Those were the ones who didn’t have the foresight or resources to get out of the country beforehand.  I feel like I’m seeing the future that might be about to unfold.

Just for the record, since you are seeing the future unfold this way... who is going to invade the US, take over our homes and force us to move to small, overcrowded, disease-ridden ghetto areas?

I don’t think anyone is going to invade the US.  The enemy already lives there.

With all the government departments being gutted and data destroyed, I could see it being possible that one day you can no longer prove ownership of property.  Ghettos aren’t necessarily on the agenda but  maybe “redistribution” of residences.

This is something you can actually envision happening?  You think that the data that is needed to prove property ownership will get lost because of of the work the DOGE is doing cancelling DEI funding and other contracts?

Given everything that’s occurred in only the past 4 weeks, I think anything is possible.  I have no insider knowledge, in fact, I’m not even American, but who would have thought that anything that’s happened so far would have been a possibility?  The US has no precedent for this kind of thing, but other countries sure do.  It’s not the worst thing to look to history to prepare for a similar future.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2025, 06:06:55 PM »
I am definitely keeping an eye on this, coming from a family where my grandparents' families were almost all murdered because they didn't leave Europe before the 1930s.

Say one did want to leave: Does anyone have advice on the best way to do research on this? Resources that aren't just searches on the internet? Things I want to know:

-What to do with one's money (i.e., how to access funds in retirement accounts)
-Residency requirements of the new place
-How to access health insurance
-How to build a social community in a new place

Are there good relocation services that would walk you through all this?

iris lily

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Re: At what point should we consider fleeing the United States?
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2025, 07:09:53 PM »

Are there good relocation services that would walk you through all this?

I will bet someone’s out there setting up a new way to make a buck to take advantage of this kind of thinking.