Author Topic: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan  (Read 24540 times)

dude

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Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« on: February 06, 2014, 06:41:21 AM »
Seems this Bloomberg.com Editorial Board member is less enthusiastic about the ACA than the early retirement crowd on this board:

The Obamacare Retirement Plan
By Clive Crook
Feb 5, 2014 5:12 PM ET 

The discussion over the employment effects of the Affordable Care Act has taken a strange turn. It's come to this: We're arguing about whether somebody who chooses to work less because of the health-insurance subsidy is behaving rationally.

In case you haven't been following, back in 2010 the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the ACA would reduce labor supply by around 800,000 jobs. That's the net result of several different effects, but here's one: Some people would work fewer hours and some would quit work altogether because the insurance subsidy would make it an affordable option. A new CBO report (see appendix C) has fiddled with the assumptions and says the reduction will actually be equivalent to a little over 2 million jobs.

A common first response was, "What? The CBO says the ACA costs jobs?" Apparently that first estimate hadn't received the attention it deserved.

After a pause for partisan sorting, the second responses arrived. Conservatives said, "See, we told you ACA was a job-destoyer." Liberals said, "It isn't a problem. The point is, people will be choosing to work less. That's a good thing." Matthew Yglesias at Slate calls it a reduction in avoidable suffering.

On to stage three. Tyler Cowen agrees with liberals that that the people working less will be choosing to do so, but questions whether that's a good thing. In choosing to work less, he says, people might be making a mistake. Ross Douthat agrees. A lot of people don't know what's good for them.

Here's my take. The ACA subsidies don't "kill jobs," they cause work to be abandoned. Let's give liberals that vital point. I'd say they're also right in thinking (for once) that people mostly know what's good for them. At least, it's a fair working assumption that people are the best judges of their own welfare.

That just leaves one thing -- the small and strangely neglected matter of who pays for the subsidies. As a taxpayer, I'm more than happy to finance a subsidy that guarantees access to decent health care for all. I'm not so happy to subsidize your early retirement or improved work-life balance. Health care is, or should be, a basic entitlement. Your lifestyle choices aren't.

On the whole, people do need to work: not just for income but also for self-respect, to stay engaged with others, for all kinds of self-interested reasons. On the whole, people understand this and act accordingly. But society is also entitled to expect something of those who aren't too young, too old or too sick -- that people who can work will work.

If you're receiving transfers and services financed out of taxes, as we all are, you have an obligation. I can respect a person's choice not to work, but if you're going to opt out of that avoidable suffering, I wish you wouldn't do it at my expense.

The larger point is that a shrinking labor force is a problem regardless of the cause, because the bills still need to be paid. The ACA isn't that badly designed from a work-reduction point of view, and any scheme that guarantees access to health insurance regardless of income will discourage work to some degree. That doesn't make discouraging work a good thing. ACA is a good policy despite the fact that it will discourage work to some extent. Liberals, is that so hard to say?

(Clive Crook is a member of Bloomberg View's Editorial Board. Follow him on Twitter @clive_crook.)


Bateaux

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 11:16:04 PM »
I'm planning my entire early retirement around the ACA subsidy.  I can get about 50 percent of my insurance through subsidy.   Silver plan for my wife and I would be about $4,000 to $5,000 if we kept our income low enough.  I'm planning to live on $50,000 annually in retirement from mostly passive income.  I'd still like to work enough to continue to fund our Roth IRA'S.   Which would be $13,000 so that really only leaves us with $37,000 annually for living expenses. It is a challenge.   We could probably use a withdrawal rate of 3% or less.  Who would have thought that the Obama Care would encourage frugality.

beltim

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 11:32:22 PM »
I'm planning my entire early retirement around the ACA subsidy.  I can get about 50 percent of my insurance through subsidy.   Silver plan for my wife and I would be about $4,000 to $5,000 if we kept our income low enough.  I'm planning to live on $50,000 annually in retirement from mostly passive income.  I'd still like to work enough to continue to fund our Roth IRA'S.   Which would be $13,000 so that really only leaves us with $37,000 annually for living expenses. It is a challenge.   We could probably use a withdrawal rate of 3% or less.  Who would have thought that the Obama Care would encourage frugality.

How do you feel about this paragraph?

Quote
If you're receiving transfers and services financed out of taxes, as we all are, you have an obligation. I can respect a person's choice not to work, but if you're going to opt out of that avoidable suffering, I wish you wouldn't do it at my expense.

kelly1mm

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 12:26:58 AM »
Another one here on the "Obamacare Retirement plan".  The day the ACA was found constitutional my FI date was cut in 1/2.  I will enthusiastically be signing up for the ACA with subsidies (about 90% will be subsidized) as soon as I hit FI.

How do I feel about not meeting my 'obligation'?  I don't care.  Some people do not like MIC spending.  Others don't like social welfare spending.  Yet they still have to pay taxes if they have taxable income.  We as individuals don't get to decide what our tax dollars are spent on and certainly do not get to say where our particular tax dollars go. 

I suppose one COULD conceivably 'starve the beast' by setting up income requirements that are so low as to be under the federal tax threshold.  Our retirement plan gets us VERY close to $0 federal taxes.

bikebum

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 12:50:28 AM »
If the ACA results in some people choosing not to work, that will help with the unemployment rate, right? I know that's not the point of the OP, just something I thought of. You could think of it like you are paying a subsidy that makes it possible for someone else to have the job that was abandoned. Not sure if that is better.

God or Mammon?

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 04:07:19 AM »
I look forward to the day when taxes will be properly levied on assets/wealth or consumption (proper VAT) instead of income

iris lily

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 04:38:51 AM »
If the ACA results in some people choosing not to work, that will help with the unemployment rate, right? I know that's not the point of the OP, just something I thought of. You could think of it like you are paying a subsidy that makes it possible for someone else to have the job that was abandoned. Not sure if that is better.

In many cases, yes. Someone abandons a job that still exists and that someone else will step into, and taxes will flow from that job. That's my case.

In other cases, no. A small businessman stops working and closes up shop. No one is producing the goods or service any more and taxes will stop flowing from that enterprise. That's the case of my husband. It could be said that the opportunity to provide the good or service is still there and someone else can step into that role, and sure, maybe that will happen, but I doubt it.

rusty

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 05:03:41 AM »
You can bet the ACA will change over time.  As a broker, I wrote a lot of coverage and can tell you that about 72% of the total premium was coming from the Government (taxes and fees).   As that starts to add up, expect the government to add means testing or some other method to start denying it to those who can afford coverage. 

Not trying to rain on your parade, but base your ER on a government program staying the same.  Especially something as big as ACA.  Good luck to you.

dcheesi

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 05:26:10 AM »
If the ACA results in some people choosing not to work, that will help with the unemployment rate, right? I know that's not the point of the OP, just something I thought of. You could think of it like you are paying a subsidy that makes it possible for someone else to have the job that was abandoned. Not sure if that is better.

In many cases, yes. Someone abandons a job that still exists and that someone else will step into, and taxes will flow from that job. That's my case.

In other cases, no. A small businessman stops working and closes up shop. No one is producing the goods or service any more and taxes will stop flowing from that enterprise. That's the case of my husband. It could be said that the opportunity to provide the good or service is still there and someone else can step into that role, and sure, maybe that will happen, but I doubt it.
What about the person who can finally quit their corporate job to open their dream business?  Or the example we had here a few months ago, of someone who can devote more time to her business because she doesn't have to work a crappy part time job just for the benefits?

randymarsh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 05:46:41 AM »
How do you feel about this paragraph?

Quote
If you're receiving transfers and services financed out of taxes, as we all are, you have an obligation. I can respect a person's choice not to work, but if you're going to opt out of that avoidable suffering, I wish you wouldn't do it at my expense.

Technically you only have an obligation if you have taxable income. That's how the system has been setup and I don't see it changing much.

By this logic retirees shouldn't drive on roads or send their kids to school because they're receiving a service without paying.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 05:57:38 AM »
If you're receiving transfers and services financed out of taxes, as we all are, you have an obligation. I can respect a person's choice not to work, but if you're going to opt out of that avoidable suffering, I wish you wouldn't do it at my expense.
Well, where do you draw the line? Healthy people have been subsidizing people who eat themselves to death and helping them treat their vastly avoidable obesity-related diseases. Should we get rid of them too because they opted out of "suffering"?

dcheesi

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 06:43:05 AM »
One of the premises seems to be that everyone is morally obligated to work as long as they are able to. I'm not sure that's the case, at least not anymore. Productivity has increased to the point that we could provide the necessities of a good life to everyone with just a fraction of the population, or with everyone working but less often.

And I think early retirement is actually one of the most sensible ways of dealing with this. The three hour work week doesn't make sense for logistical reasons, and of course mass unemployment is a terrible outcome. But if everyone works when they're young and then retires once they've earned enough, that achieves the goal of balancing total production while making sure that everyone has done their share of work.

matchewed

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 06:54:19 AM »
Most of us will still continue to pay into these systems through taxes. Although people will be working on minimizing their taxes in FIRE, taxation will probably be hard to 100% to avoid. We've still got many people who will FIRE on expenses >$30k.

Quote
That just leaves one thing -- the small and strangely neglected matter of who pays for the subsidies. As a taxpayer, I'm more than happy to finance a subsidy that guarantees access to decent health care for all. I'm not so happy to subsidize your early retirement or improved work-life balance. Health care is, or should be, a basic entitlement. Your lifestyle choices aren't.

Bullshit. Our lifestyle choices are a basic right. We're just working within the framework that was set up. I quit my job and took up ACA so I could go to school. Does that make me unethical just because some people feel they shouldn't pay for my insurance while I go to school? Probably not. This just sounds like someone who doesn't like something that won't be happening on a large scale and is breaking out a whole bunch of complainypants to spread around.

lithy

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 07:00:23 AM »
Step 1.  Set up ridiculously complicated system to cover an entire nation and millions of variables to save people from their own choices since you know better.

Step 2.  Wait for unintended consequences.

Step 3.  Complain when people manage to game your system to their advantage and return to step 1 to 'fix' the system.

If you want to pick and choose who is able to get your money and for what reasons, go through charity, not the government.

LalsConstant

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 07:32:40 AM »
Step 1.  Set up ridiculously complicated system to cover an entire nation and millions of variables to save people from their own choices since you know better.

Step 2.  Wait for unintended consequences.

Step 3.  Complain when people manage to game your system to their advantage and return to step 1 to 'fix' the system.

If you want to pick and choose who is able to get your money and for what reasons, go through charity, not the government.

*slow clap*

You certainly can't fault people for following the rules we have in place but the ripple of unintended consequences is inevitable.

zataks

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 07:45:40 AM »
I've actually been looking at ACA (covered California website) the last couple days to get an idea about the cost of healthcare.  Currently my employer pays most of my monthly premium but they won't pay for healthcare as a retiree until I work 15 years AND am at least 52 years old (and start collecting at that point.  which I'll likely delay due to the way pension is calculated).  So I've been looking into the costs as the former plan was to make it at least 15 years for that healthcare benefit but as I'll only be 42 at that time, I still have at least 10 years of out of pocket healthcare expenses.  So now I'm thinking aiming to ER in maybe 10ish years and just plan on paying it all myself and embrace the subsidies. 

Emilyngh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 08:45:25 AM »
This article is based on the idea that everyone working as much paid work as possible is the best for the individual and society, and I've yet to see any evidence that this is true.

Any social programs that exist in a society where people have free choice subsidize our choices.   This is true for business as well as individuals (eg, oil companies get their choice to sell oil subsidized).   So to me, the question is not whether choice is subsidized, but whether doing so in that particular case where harm society overall.   And overall, IMO, ACA will do so so much more good for society that the possible loss of a little tax revenue will negate.

I also find the moralization of tax optimization for those who live middle class lifestyles very hypocritical.   It is standard and expected for those with very high incomes to minimize taxes, but as soon as their is a hint of the general population doing it, it's people not doing their part, being lazy, being unethical.

We won't completely retire for about 10 years, so we probably won't be using ACA until then.   But, I did realize that by putting more in my work's version of a 401k we can qualify for EIC (we currently save in IRAs and take the saver's credit, which we should be able to double dip with the EIC).   I make over $50k a year and have a sah spouse, but after health insurance costs, and by putting a large percentage of that in my employer's 401k, I should be able to get my earned income pretty low.   

One could look at our fat stache of a savings, our home, vacations we take, food we eat, my degrees and job type and say I'm lazy and ripping off society by working below my potential (I work a job that pays poorly for my degrees b/c it requires minimal time and optimal autonomy).   But, I think it's pretty shitty to think that one who chooses to work many hours for a high income has the right to minimize their taxes any way legal, but one who chooses to work less does not.

randymarsh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 09:01:36 AM »
But, I think it's pretty shitty to think that one who chooses to work many hours for a high income has the right to minimize their taxes any way legal, but one who chooses to work less does not.

This.

It seems as long as you're working as much as possible and making lots of money, you can do basically whatever you want with regards to tax "loopholes" and similar issues and no one cares. But when someone decides to not kill themselves working and uses the same system to their benefit, suddenly they're lazy moochers looking for handouts.

sirdoug007

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 09:22:54 AM »
On the whole, people do need to work: not just for income but also for self-respect, to stay engaged with others, for all kinds of self-interested reasons. On the whole, people understand this and act accordingly. But society is also entitled to expect something of those who aren't too young, too old or too sick -- that people who can work will work.

Wow.  So that part about "the pursuit of happiness" that Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence has been overruled by our corporate overlords!

This guy obviously has a huge piece of his identify tied up in his work and can't fathom how someone not working could enjoy their life on their own terms to gain self-respect and engagement with others.  It reminds me of the Mitt Romney 47% quote ending with "I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

DoubleDown

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 09:32:43 AM »
Seriously, the Affordable Care Act was designed to make health insurance, duh, affordable. They chose to decide affordability based on income. I don't see how claiming legal subsidies based on a person's income, even if it includes voluntarily earning less than they could, is in any way sticking it to anyone. WTF, does a person need to work 20 hours overtime or an extra job if they can, so that they're not claiming subsidies? Do they have to give up their job as a musician and go work in an office where their salary will be higher? Where do you draw the line?

Great point about obesity above, Paul Der Krake, and all other kinds of unhealthy life choices. Should I be complaining that health care and insurance is driven up insanely by other people's poor health choices? Or maybe I should really complain about the company with the Hepatitis C vaccine that is charging $8,000 per dose, and stands to earn $250 Billion from the population in the U.S. with the disease. Wonder if insurance covering that prescription might drive costs up a dollar or two ...

BlueMR2

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 09:54:49 AM »
How do I feel about not meeting my 'obligation'?  I don't care.  Some people do not like MIC spending.  Others don't like social welfare spending.  Yet they still have to pay taxes if they have taxable income.  We as individuals don't get to decide what our tax dollars are spent on and certainly do not get to say where our particular tax dollars go. 

Same here.  Some of my taxes goes to things that are downright evil.  I don't complain though, it's part of living in a society built on adversarial principles.  If they can use my tax money for evil deeds, I'll take whatever I can get back out of them...

Eric

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 10:05:38 AM »
I wonder how Clive Crook feels about stay at home parents.  Does he have the same view that they have an obligation to work?  I can smell the hypocrisy from here.

TreeTired

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2014, 10:06:24 AM »
We did it a little backwards,  ie stopped working first,  then became beneficiaries of the ACA.
For 6 years after my last job ended we were actually happy paying up to $1000/mo for high quality private health insurance.   

I often presented my decision  to not work as something I am doing to help the younger generation by not taking a good high paying job away from a younger person.

Now, with the ACA we are paying $300/month for health insurance instead of the much higher unsubsidized rate of $1550.  What am I supposed to do,  decline the subsidy and pay $1550?   Note that I was happy paying $680/month last year.  I would be much less happy to pay $1550.

The one thing I am not happy about is the financial incentive for me to keep my MAGI as low as possible to keep the subsidy.  (Not Medicaid low,  but just low enough)     No Roth conversion for me in 2014,  and I am much more careful about taking gains in my non-retirement accounts.  I didn't make the rules,  I am just playing the game.

Eric

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2014, 10:09:14 AM »
That just leaves one thing -- the small and strangely neglected matter of who pays for the subsidies. As a taxpayer, I'm more than happy to finance a subsidy that guarantees access to decent health care for all. I'm not so happy to subsidize your early retirement or improved work-life balance. Health care is, or should be, a basic entitlement. Your lifestyle choices aren't.

The 2nd and 4th sentences are at odds with the 3rd and 5th.  This whole paragraph makes no sense.  Either you're happy to subsidize decent health care for all or you're not.  Either healthcare is a basic entitlement or it's not.  You can't have it both ways Clive.

Argyle

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 10:23:48 AM »
I think the article author is full of it.  It's a bad thing if we all consume less and therefore need less and work less?   He's not counting in the reduced impact on the planet and the freeing up of jobs that can then go to people who don't have a pile of savings.  His argument seems to be that the only system that works involves full-time jobs for everyone who can make it into the office, and that otherwise health care will founder.  He's ignoring the example of the rest of the industrialized world, i.e. all the countries that have a health care system that guarantees health care to everyone, regardless of their job status.

If he's concerned about the cost of health care, there are many measure that could be taken to bring the cost down -- eliminating the expensive multiple layers of bureaucracy that come from having umpteen insurance companes with umpteen plans, for instance. My doctor's office in the States has four people whose full-time job it is to figure out who's paying.  My doctor's office in England has none.  But I suppose he would argue that those four office workers have to be employed so that the whole work force can be working so as to afford the salaries of the four extra workers in the office...

Anyway, if there are problems, there are multiple possible solutions.  Saying that it is immoral to retire on your investments is not the way forward.  If I may venture a low blow, I'd wager that the author is someone whose savings rate does not allow him to retire.  "Those people ... they're doing it and I can't ... but they're wrong! Wrong!"

Emilyngh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 11:43:50 AM »
I wonder how Clive Crook feels about stay at home parents.  Does he have the same view that they have an obligation to work?  I can smell the hypocrisy from here.

Goood point!   I am always surprised when I find out that people who really push a strong "work ethic" that others can only fulfill through working long hours of paid work have stay-at-home spouses or are a SAHP themselves.   Either the only respectable way to live is to perform paid work, or it's not.

lisahi

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 11:48:21 AM »
This article--what a stereotypically American way of thinking. The idea that working provides you self-esteem--that it is your obligation to society to work as hard as you can for as long as you can--is the sad part of what was once the American Dream.  As far as I'm aware, the pursuit of happiness didn't come with an instruction book describing the only proper ways to achieve that happiness.  Apparently, happiness means working even after you've achieved financial independence because Joe Shmoe doesn't want his taxes to subsidize anybody's medical insurance unless they're working the 8-hour work week grind until their 65.  Congratulations on your happiness.

Articles like this confirm my belief that people aren't seeing the forest for the trees.  Americans should want a functioning society in which we can all share in whatever prosperity the country has achieved.  We should be happy for those who make smart decisions and, in the long run, cost very little for the country to support since they're pretty damn good at supporting themselves. Instead, we bicker like little children about what is "fair." Johnny was smart and saved his pennies so he doesn't have to do chores in order to buy that new toy truck. NOT FAIR!!! I need to do chores to buy that new truck because I spent all my money on bubble gum, but my chores benefit Johnny! I don't want them to benefit Johnny! He should have to do chores even though he doesn't need the money because... you know... FAIRNESS.

It doesn't make sense, especially since there are enough people in this country to do all the "chores" we could possibly think of. It's not like we're at a shortage for labor and folks retiring early is going to cause a dearth in the labor market.  So this type of article just reaffirms that some folks want everybody to be as put upon as they are, even if it doesn't make one bit of difference in their lives.  Because the ACA is such a large-scale program, the amount of people who leave the labor market early because of its advantages isn't going to have an appreciable affect on the cost of the system.  Even if all of the 2 million who are projected to leave the labor force were because of early retirement (and that's a huge assumption), we're talking 2 million people out of 314 million people living in the United States.  The fact is that most people cannot, because of their circumstances and choices, retire early because they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves off of what they have accumulated.  The ACA is not going to push these people to leave the labor market any more than the welfare system would push them to leave.

Beaker

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 01:29:53 PM »
Health care is, or should be, a basic entitlement. Your lifestyle choices aren't.
Precisely backwards. Choosing how to live your life is a basic human right, health care is just a nice-to-have entitlement.

If you're receiving transfers and services financed out of taxes, as we all are, you have an obligation [to work].
As long as you're getting any government services, you should be working. I sort of get that, although it glosses over the idea of savings.

I can respect a person's choice not to work, but if you're going to opt out of that avoidable suffering, I wish you wouldn't do it at my expense.
Uh huh... so we're all obligated to work all, and the moment we stop working we should immediately stop using all services. I think he actually just argued that everyone should work not until retirement, but rather until death.

His basic problem seems to be that universal health care is far too universal for his taste. He wants to be able to pick and choose who gets the benefits and who provides the subsidies. I understand that, I'd love to be able to handpick the winners and losers too, but that's no way to run a government or a society.

DoubleDown

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 01:41:45 PM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

beltim

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 01:47:11 PM »
And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Of course you do.  Our progressive tax system ensures that you pay differently for government services depending on your income.

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 03:01:31 PM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

Interesting thought - the real questions is whether or not there would be more or less or same demand.

People only call the police typically when there is an absolute need to do so - if this carried over to health care then this might reduce demand overally (i.e. not going to the doctor or ER for the sniffles).

And maybe preventive care visits would increase thus reducing major demand and expense as issues are identified early (Although I think with this there should be very strict programs and penalties for not meeting preventative care schedules - like if you don't change the oil on your car it could void the warranty).

However, if it is a free-for-all and people show up like hogs at feeding time then it will break the system.

Of course this ignores whether or not you would be able to get people to want to be doctors, train them and pay them accordingly. 

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 03:25:30 PM »
tooqk4u22, why do you think it would work differently in the US than in the rest of the industrialized world?  We have plenty of models to observe results.  I don't believe that it's some sort of free for all in Western Europe, so why would it be here?

Also, people call police for terrible reasons all the time.  There's practically an article written every day about frivolous 911 calls clogging up the system and preventing timely responses for legitimate calls.  I think that was not a good example.



DoubleDown, excellent rant!

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 03:43:36 PM »
In addition to all the issues discussed above, a major problem with the opinions expressed in the editorial is the underlying assumption that there is an inherent connection between employment and health insurance/health care.  The decoupling of health insurance from employment is actually a return to the natural state of affairs.  It is only due to historical accident that the US job markets and insurance industry developed in a way such that health insurance became tied to employment.  There is no natural reason for employer-sponsored health coverage to be the norm.

Dr. Doom

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 05:32:11 PM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

Damn skippy. 

LalsConstant

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 09:56:37 PM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

All of the problems in the first paragraph could be solved by having a smaller, fiscally conservative government that didn't over-regulate healthcare just as easily.  And you do get a bill, or at least I do, and a hefty one at that.  I see it every time I get paid, and I don't see it every time I buy nearly anything with all the hidden taxes rolled up in the price.

I actually agree with why should health care be any different, but the way to make it operate like everything else to to stop trying to squeeze it through some government program.  I really do not grasp why this particular consumer service has to be so politicized.  Why people think a private service is under the purview of the government to provide is unfathomable.

Plenty of doctors are going to a cash only practice, where they're making money hand over first and charging a fraction of what traditional practices would bill.  They say no to Medicare, insurance, everything.

thepokercab

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 10:55:37 PM »
All of the problems in the first paragraph could be solved by having a smaller, fiscally conservative government that didn't over-regulate healthcare just as easily.  And you do get a bill, or at least I do, and a hefty one at that.  I see it every time I get paid, and I don't see it every time I buy nearly anything with all the hidden taxes rolled up in the price.

I actually agree with why should health care be any different, but the way to make it operate like everything else to to stop trying to squeeze it through some government program. I really do not grasp why this particular consumer service has to be so politicized.  Why people think a private service is under the purview of the government to provide is unfathomable.

Plenty of doctors are going to a cash only practice, where they're making money hand over first and charging a fraction of what traditional practices would bill.  They say no to Medicare, insurance, everything.

You really think health care is like any other "consumer service"?  When consumers are purchasing just about any other product, whether its a TV, a car, basically anything, they have a good sense as to what the market for that product is and what a fair price is.  No one has any clue what constitutes a fair price when it comes to health care.  An appendectomy in one state might cost you $8,000.  In other state it can be $30,000.  Such a wide gap in any other consumer service would be evidence of collusion or price manipulation. 

Also, there is the fundamental moral issue surrounding health care and profit. At some point, your life depends on this particular "consumer service".  Just how much profit should the doctors, insurance company, etc. be able to reap off of your predicament?  Obviously, the incentive of the insurance company is to collect as much money in insurance premiums as possible, while paying out as little amount of money as it can in benefits.  Call me crazy, but in the absence of government regulation that seems like a recipe to simply deny a bunch of people health care coverage, or make them pay out of pocket for a ton of their costs (costs that we don't want to control, because FREEDOM!) 

So, i for one, would like the government to continue to intrude in this particular area and drag us into modernity, along with every other developed country on the planet.   



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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2014, 05:48:00 AM »
So some are saying I don't deserve the subsidy because I plan to keep my income low even though I could be working and paying?   I've worked and paid taxes for decades.  All the while I've funded my Roth IRA and 401K to the max.  I paid off all my debt and can live pretty cheap in early retirement.   Means testing isn't likely to come.  Most every program is income based.  I will have over 30 years of input into Social Security as well.  This may shock you but I plan to draw that as well.  Whether I can afford to live withoutbit ir not.

randymarsh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2014, 06:14:25 AM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

All of the problems in the first paragraph could be solved by having a smaller, fiscally conservative government that didn't over-regulate healthcare just as easily.

I actually agree with why should health care be any different, but the way to make it operate like everything else to to stop trying to squeeze it through some government program.  I really do not grasp why this particular consumer service has to be so politicized.  Why people think a private service is under the purview of the government to provide is unfathomable.

Plenty of doctors are going to a cash only practice, where they're making money hand over first and charging a fraction of what traditional practices would bill.  They say no to Medicare, insurance, everything.

How exactly is the government over regulating healthcare? It seems if anybody's doing that, it's the insurance companies. What does "small" government even mean? Fewer employees? Fewer agencies/departments? Smaller budgets? You don't see how healthcare is different than buying a car or iPad?

Doctors going cash only I suspect are mostly primary care in somewhat well off areas, where people are open to spending a few hundred bucks for a checkup and testing. I seriously doubt any surgeon at a hospital will be going cash only, except plastics. Many hospitals depend on Medicaid/Medicare. Georgia has has numerous hospitals close over the last decade in rural areas. If their governor would expand Medicaid, maybe that trend will be changing.




Bateaux

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2014, 06:26:42 AM »
While in the Army I had government health care.  Never needed it much, mainly used dental care.  I never witnessed any abuse of service and it seemed efficient.   Maybe instead of completely downsizing the military just make them our health care system.

goatmom

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2014, 06:52:43 AM »
Very few doctors are making money " hand over fist" in cash only practices.  Most people just don't want to pay for health care.  A few doctors can do it if they have a very small practice with not much overhead where it makes sense to not hire the staff to process insurance claims.  It is risky.  Most doctors choose the security of a big group.

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2014, 07:16:59 AM »
tooqk4u22, why do you think it would work differently in the US than in the rest of the industrialized world?  We have plenty of models to observe results.  I don't believe that it's some sort of free for all in Western Europe, so why would it be here?

Also, people call police for terrible reasons all the time.  There's practically an article written every day about frivolous 911 calls clogging up the system and preventing timely responses for legitimate calls.  I think that was not a good example.



DoubleDown, excellent rant!

Long term I agree with you, but over the near to medium term the transition may not be like that.

Besides once you get past that we will have to work on the last comment that I asked to ignore - having enough qualified professionals to provide healthcare.


CarDude

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2014, 08:09:55 AM »
Which makes me wish all of us could just go to the doctor or hospital when we're sick, without paying, and without some complex insurance scheme. I don't get a bill if I have to call the police or fire department, send my kids to our local public school, or check out a book from the library, or if my government has to launch a missile at an Islamist militant. And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Why should health care be any different? Just f'ing take it out of everyone's taxes, and be done with it. I'm sure it's impossible to do though, otherwise another developed country would have done it already....... Plus we'd obviously become - gasp! - SOCIALISTS!!!

Did you read the thread where I and other folks pointed out that lots of our fellow rich countries treat education the way they treat healthcare--as a public right, rather than as a luxury only befitting the rich? And lots of people fell over themselves throughout the thread insisting that nothing needed to change except for how entitled 18-year-olds were? Even on this forum, there are lots of folks who think providing social safety nets is BAD BAD BAD.

There's a uniquely American dog-eat-dog approach to life that's ridiculously self-defeating. I'm sure there are lots of folks around the country (and more than a few on this forum) who'd rather pay much more for any social service, as long as they were sure that the people they felt didn't deserve it didn't have access to it, than pay less and have everyone taken care of.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 08:11:58 AM by CarSafetyGuy »

CarDude

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2014, 08:15:21 AM »
And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Of course you do.  Our progressive tax system ensures that you pay differently for government services depending on your income.

Yes; that's the same in every country. That's normal and is the way things should be. What he's saying is that he doesn't get charged *outside* of his taxes the way he does for healthcare. That part is uniquely American (at least compared to our fellow rich countries).

CarDude

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2014, 08:19:38 AM »
Plenty of doctors are going to a cash only practice, where they're making money hand over first and charging a fraction of what traditional practices would bill.  They say no to Medicare, insurance, everything.

LOL. All the doctors I know (and in the fields I've worked in, I've gotten to know a lot) who pursue cash only do it for a love of the patients, and they make *much* less than the ones who bill insurance and Medicare. The way to make money in medicine as a physician is to work for a hospital. The farther you disconnect from the system, the less you make. Of course, if we adopted a reasonable healthcare model, doctors wouldn't have to turn into bankers and bean counters, and could focus on seeing patients. It's kind of like how your local police department doesn't get paid by the number of people they arrest.

data.Damnation

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2014, 08:26:55 AM »
Health care is, or should be, a basic entitlement. Your lifestyle choices aren't.
Precisely backwards. Choosing how to live your life is a basic human right, health care is just a nice-to-have entitlement.

If someone gets cancer and can't afford the treatment, you're saying we should let them die? It shocks me that people can think this way, that health care isn't a basic human right. Could you really look a sick person in the eye and tell them they deserve to die if they can't afford the treatment?

DoubleDown

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 08:31:06 AM »
In addition to all the issues discussed above, a major problem with the opinions expressed in the editorial is the underlying assumption that there is an inherent connection between employment and health insurance/health care.  The decoupling of health insurance from employment is actually a return to the natural state of affairs.  It is only due to historical accident that the US job markets and insurance industry developed in a way such that health insurance became tied to employment.  There is no natural reason for employer-sponsored health coverage to be the norm.

+1

And WTF is up with that??! (I mean that rhetorically, I know where it comes from -- but it has become such an ingrained idea in the U.S. that people don't even realize the absurdity of it. We just accept it as "the way things are". So much so, that even in the ACA you cannot claim subsidies on the exchanges if your employer provides a health plan, no matter how crappy or expensive that plan is).

LalsConstant

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2014, 08:32:43 AM »
You really think health care is like any other "consumer service"?  When consumers are purchasing just about any other product, whether its a TV, a car, basically anything, they have a good sense as to what the market for that product is and what a fair price is.  No one has any clue what constitutes a fair price when it comes to health care.  An appendectomy in one state might cost you $8,000.  In other state it can be $30,000.  Such a wide gap in any other consumer service would be evidence of collusion or price manipulation. 

You're actually agreeing with me about the cause, but possibly not the solution.  That's one thing about the healthcare debates that makes me sad, so many people seem to talk past each other without seeing there's some agreement too (not an accusation I'm aiming at anyone here).

But on point, the only reason you have this problem is the fact we have an insurance system, and we only have the insurance system we do because insurance programs have to be structured in particular ways because that's the law.

Now we've gone and made it worse by requiring everyone be insured.  This hampers people thinking creatively to solve the problem.  That's really my main beef with well meaning efforts to politicize health care, there's no provision to opt out of what others think is best regardless of whether it may actually be or not.

I wouldn't let someone decide what books I was allowed to read, what kind of car I could buy, etc.  Why should I let someone tell me what health care I need to buy?

But that's essentially what we've been doing for decades, and ideas like letting nurse pracicioners provide services without an MD authorizing them or letting pharmacists sell "behind the counter" medicines just get pushed by the wayside.

The best price, the fair price, for healthcare can only be achieved by giving the total consumer base total power to "negotiate" the price with the providers via the market.  Instead in the interest of making sure some people have better healthcare access than others (which is all the ACA does), we have let, or rather forced, the providers cut the customer base up into discrete portions so they can exercise price discrimination.

You get the a fair price, and a fairly uniform price, for television sets because the providers have to "negotiate" with the entire consumer base, not just parts of it, some of whom pay $1000 for a TV and some of whom pay $500, etc.

I am confident if we had to buy television sets via television insurance, where individual people had no clue what they were actually paying, we'd have the exact same clusterscrew just for a different good.

Also, there is the fundamental moral issue surrounding health care and profit. At some point, your life depends on this particular "consumer service".  Just how much profit should the doctors, insurance company, etc. be able to reap off of your predicament?  Obviously, the incentive of the insurance company is to collect as much money in insurance premiums as possible, while paying out as little amount of money as it can in benefits.  Call me crazy, but in the absence of government regulation that seems like a recipe to simply deny a bunch of people health care coverage, or make them pay out of pocket for a ton of their costs (costs that we don't want to control, because FREEDOM!) 

So, i for one, would like the government to continue to intrude in this particular area and drag us into modernity, along with every other developed country on the planet.

How much profit is "fair" is honestly a question best decided by as many people as possible, because we all have different ideas.  I would argue that different profit margins are necessary in different kinds of businesses, and have noticed that the only way we seem to have a clue what those margins should be is just by letting those businesses run through their cycles and figure it out by trial and error.

That issue aside, I actually do have sympathy for the sentiment behind this argument, and were I a wizard I would wave my hands and make all the pain and suffering of chronic conditions and disease go away.  Truth is I think the vast majority of people would.

Lacking that power, the best we can do is try to make it as inexpensive and widely available as possible.  The best way to do that is to make, or rather let, medicine have to compete in the general market like everyone else.

The problem is, you can make this exact same argument for any service or good, and we don't try to filter most of those through some government provision.  Socialized healthcare is one of those instances where people think with their feelings too much sometimes and get their desire to see other people healthy and well muddled with what cold hard reality will allow for.

How exactly is the government over regulating healthcare? It seems if anybody's doing that, it's the insurance companies. What does "small" government even mean? Fewer employees? Fewer agencies/departments? Smaller budgets? You don't see how healthcare is different than buying a car or iPad?

Again the insurance system we have is that way because the government has made it that way.  You have to cover certain things for certain people even when it doesn't make sense.

It's only different from buying a car or Ipad because statute or tradition makes it so.  And it's not just federal or state laws either, it can be things like medical licensing, the billing practices of hospitals, and so on.  The only way to clear it up is to tear it down.

As far as small government, yes you are exactly right.  We should be focusing on elegance of design, keeping only those parts of the government that we have good reason to believe are highly effective and necessary.  A great deal of it can go.  You can draw a parrallel to engineering and optimization principles.

The very existence of successful cash practices, that they're viable at all, should give pause maybe we aren't really using our brains here.

I only found out they exist when someone I knew cut his hand badly on some glass.  He went to an all cash doctor and got it disinfected, stitched, etc. for $75.

Had he gone to a conventional hospital emergency room, well I can't even imagine the cost but what do you want to bet it'd be a four digit number, or at least a large three digit number.

Now can a cash only doctor handle a problem like terminal cancer?  I'm thinking probably not in the current system we have, but the fact that this model works for at least some services is yet another reason to rethink our central approach.

The problem I see so often in arguments like this is that people think that opponents of socialized medicine argue against it from an ideology that values freedom for its own sake without consideration for reason.

That's backward, reason and the desire to see others do well leads one to value freedom.  Only freedom gives human beings the ability to be awesome and solve problems that were previously grave and dire problems.

The worst part about the ACA is we can't at least have a middle ground, what if instead of subsidizing other people's health insurance, I want to spend the money on more cancer research instead.  What makes a bunch of lawyers in Congress who are no more qualified than I am better than me at making that decision on how to spend my money?  Why not allow people to do things like that instead of having to buy insurance?

To bring this back around, I really truly don't blame people who are using the ACA to retire earlier or accomplish other things.  Those are the rules we have in place, whether they are good rules or not doesn't really matter, but there will be unintended consequences, putting us on a regulatory treadmill. 

LalsConstant

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2014, 08:42:18 AM »
[quote author=data.Damnation link=topic=13395.msg298916#msg298916
If someone gets cancer and can't afford the treatment, you're saying we should let them die? It shocks me that people can think this way, that health care isn't a basic human right. Could you really look a sick person in the eye and tell them they deserve to die if they can't afford the treatment?
[/quote]

But that's another thing, why is there a presumption there's not another solution?

If you dissolved the artificial circumstances that make it cost more (I actually agree employer based insurance is one of those), the prices would go down.  More people could afford the treatment and the insurance, preventing these tragedies in the first place.

In the instances that couldn't, do you really think rational people won't solve that issue somehow without the government?

Also, again why can't we have a middle ground?  A good compromise might a tax cedit for catastrophic insurance.  I mean I don't like that idea but I like it better than the current system.  I just named that off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other ideas.

randymarsh

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2014, 09:18:34 AM »
But on point, the only reason you have this problem is the fact we have an insurance system, and we only have the insurance system we do because insurance programs have to be structured in particular ways because that's the law.

Now we've gone and made it worse by requiring everyone be insured.  This hampers people thinking creatively to solve the problem.  That's really my main beef with well meaning efforts to politicize health care, there's no provision to opt out of what others think is best regardless of whether it may actually be or not.

I wouldn't let someone decide what books I was allowed to read, what kind of car I could buy, etc.  Why should I let someone tell me what health care I need to buy?

But that's essentially what we've been doing for decades, and ideas like letting nurse pracicioners provide services without an MD authorizing them or letting pharmacists sell "behind the counter" medicines just get pushed by the wayside.

The best price, the fair price, for healthcare can only be achieved by giving the total consumer base total power to "negotiate" the price with the providers via the market.  Instead in the interest of making sure some people have better healthcare access than others (which is all the ACA does), we have let, or rather forced, the providers cut the customer base up into discrete portions so they can exercise price discrimination.


So we should just let insurance companies do whatever they want? I feel like you're operating under the assumption that government is bad no matter what it's doing.

Regarding cars, actually you're buying a car that the government has said is OK to be sold. Go try to buy a car without airbags.

There actually has been a rise in other medical professionals doing some of the doctor's work. PAs are much more popular now. We're letting nurses (with extra training and school) do anesthesiology. A pharmacist gave me my flu shot.

Consumers/patients will never be able to negotiate because medical care isn't like buying a TV. When you're bleeding or in horrible pain, you aren't going to compare 3 different providers. You're going to go the nearest ER. You don't usually have 2 months to shop around for the exact facility and doctor you want.

How does the ACA make sure some people have better healthcare than others? It makes it so millions of more people have healthcare period. Enrollment is expected to climb over time and I suspect more states will jump on the Medicaid train in the future. Employers are already starting to flirt with the idea of just giving employees more money so they can buy an exchange plan. "The providers cut the customer base up into discrete portions so they can exercise price discrimination" Huh? The ACA does the exact opposite. There's hardly any price discrimination anymore. No difference based on sex and a much smaller difference based on age. All of this gets us much closer to a real universal healthcare system.

beltim

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Re: Article - The Obamacare Retirement Plan
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »
And I don't get charged differently for those things depending on my income, or whether or not my private employer offers its own police department or library or drone fleet.

Of course you do.  Our progressive tax system ensures that you pay differently for government services depending on your income.

Yes; that's the same in every country. That's normal and is the way things should be. What he's saying is that he doesn't get charged *outside* of his taxes the way he does for healthcare. That part is uniquely American (at least compared to our fellow rich countries).

Nonsense.  There are plenty of countries where government provides neither doctors (like the UK) or insurance from taxes (like Canada or Germany).  Countries like Switzerland and the Netherlands, where individuals have to purchase their own insurance (but the government pays the premiums for those who cannot afford them), not only have universal coverage not paid for out of taxes, but have better health care (albeit not cheaper) than countries where the government pays out of taxes.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!