Author Topic: Article : Retirement expert: The ‘4% rule is no longer a safe withdrawal rate’  (Read 2331 times)


Monkey Uncle

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Well, maybe 4% isn't safe any more, but the "experts" quoted in that article presented zero evidence to back up their assertion that the SWR is now 3 or 3.5%.  So what if dividend yields are down?  Total return is the metric that matters, and that depends on long-term earnings growth.

You have to keep in mind that 4% was safe in about 95% of historic 30-year periods.  It failed when retirement coincided with major, decadal-scale tops in the stock market.  I think most FIRE people are smart enough to realize that (1) the 4% rule is not completely safe for periods longer than 30 years, and (2) it is not (and never has been) completely safe when retirement coincides with major tops in the stock market.  These facts are not news to anyone who has even a rudimentary understanding of how safe withdrawal rates work.

RWD

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In theory the 4% rule should get more safe after a stock market drop...

Rdy2Fire

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Well, maybe 4% isn't safe any more, but the "experts" quoted in that article presented zero evidence to back up their assertion that the SWR is now 3 or 3.5%.  So what if dividend yields are down?  Total return is the metric that matters, and that depends on long-term earnings growth.

You have to keep in mind that 4% was safe in about 95% of historic 30-year periods.  It failed when retirement coincided with major, decadal-scale tops in the stock market.  I think most FIRE people are smart enough to realize that (1) the 4% rule is not completely safe for periods longer than 30 years, and (2) it is not (and never has been) completely safe when retirement coincides with major tops in the stock market.  These facts are not news to anyone who has even a rudimentary understanding of how safe withdrawal rates work.

Totally agree.. was just sharing as I thought it was interesting that someone even addressed it

clarkfan1979

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https://www.choosefi.com/flexible-spending-rules-for-early-retirees/

This guy gives the best information for safe withdrawal rates, in my opinion.

If we assume previous market history as baseline, a 4% withdrawal rate lasts 30 years, 100% of the time. About 1 percent of the time, your money will run out at 31 years. There is also a 1% chance that you will end up with 9 million, after 30 years. There is a 50% chance that you will end up with 3 million, after 30 years.


fattest_foot

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So a market drop that we 75% recovered from in a month invalidates the 4% rule? I didn't realize this was worse than everything in the 20th century. I guess it's time to panic.

Missy B

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Some time ago a regular poster whose name I forget, did a meta-analysis of the 4% rule over many
decades and determined that it did fail in situations where there was a substantial loss in the early years of retirement.
I vaguely recall that you needed to have 3% average growth in the first 5 or 10 years. After that it was pretty insensitive to losses.

bacchi

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Some time ago a regular poster whose name I forget, did a meta-analysis of the 4% rule over many
decades and determined that it did fail in situations where there was a substantial loss in the early years of retirement.
I vaguely recall that you needed to have 3% average growth in the first 5 or 10 years. After that it was pretty insensitive to losses.

I believe this was @Mr. Green.

How do you tag someone with a period in their name? That worked.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 11:17:28 PM by bacchi »

markbike528CBX

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Some time ago a regular poster whose name I forget, did a meta-analysis of the 4% rule over many
decades and determined that it did fail in situations where there was a substantial loss in the early years of retirement.
I vaguely recall that you needed to have 3% average growth in the first 5 or 10 years. After that it was pretty insensitive to losses.

I believe this was @Mr Green.

How do you tag someone with a space in their name?
? Hope when you type the name in the dropdown list is long enough to include the name?

Retire-Canada

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The 4% Rule was never "100% safe" nor "failure-proof". It's a very conservative way to approach a 30 year retirement plan and for most people who haunt these forums and are working towards a portfolio that'll be 25x their planned annual spending it will form just a part of their financial plan. Almost nobody will take out 4% + inflation every year like a robot. Almost nobody will never receive another dollar of income [PT job, pension, gov't benefits, inheritance, home sale, etc...]. A retiree who starts out with 25x their planned annual spend and has some spending flexibility and some additional income potential is going to have a very low chance of running out of money over a 30 year retirement.

No plan is perfect and getting to 0% failures in a simulation does not mean you have a plan that cannot fail. Even if you don't run out of money there are many ways to fail at FIRE that are not financial. Serious health problems, relationships ending, being miserable, etc... So having a solid financial plan is important, but it should only be a part of your overall FIRE plan which needs to address all the other dimensions of a successful happy retired life. Life is a limited time opportunity and there are marked declines in several key areas as we age so you cannot continue to trade life force for money indefinitely without paying a price even if you end up with an insanely low % withdrawal rate.

I've mentioned 30 years above a couple times because it ties in nicely with the Trinity Study. If you are going to have a much longer retirement [mine could be ~50 years based on my parents being in their 90's and going strong] you need to address that in your plans. To some degree a 30 year retirement and a 50 year retirement can be funded from a similar pool of investments, but obviously the longer retirement is not as robust due to the extended requirement to produce income. You can deal with that by saving more to get to a 3.5%WR or a 3%WR. You can also stick with 4%WR and use PT work, Gov't benefits, expected inheritance, more spending flexibility or the future sale of a high value home to reduce the longevity risks.

I was planning on FIREing this year and I am still on-track to do so. I hit 4%WR earlier in the year and am now up to ~4.5%WR. I'll do a number of things to reduce the pressure on my portfolio initially so it can recover back to 4%WR. As I get back to 4%WR I'll relax my additional measures and return to my "normal" FIRE plan/spend. Despite the COVID-19 crash/uncertainty a retirement based around the 4% Rule seems like a reasonably safe way to approach things and a good trade off when you consider all the non-financial factors that have a huge impact on the success of our retirements.

nereo

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If only we had a sticky to discuss the 4% 'rule' ad nauseam.  Oh wait, we do...


https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/

Retire-Canada

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If only we had a sticky to discuss the 4% 'rule' ad nauseam.  Oh wait, we do...


https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/

Unfortunately that's been sidetracked and hijacked so much I am not sure it's all that valuable anymore. It really needs to locked and edited to capture the most cogent points as a reference document with another thread stickied to capture discussion about the locked thread.

nereo

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If only we had a sticky to discuss the 4% 'rule' ad nauseam.  Oh wait, we do...


https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/stop-worrying-about-the-4-rule/

Unfortunately that's been sidetracked and hijacked so much I am not sure it's all that valuable anymore. It really needs to locked and edited to capture the most cogent points as a reference document with another thread stickied to capture discussion about the locked thread.

Sure, but the first dozen pages or so has a lot of insightful commentary (and then more later, just spread out among a lot of rubbish).
The bottom line is that every few months some freelancer writer posts a "new" OpEd disguised as data analysis talking about the 4% "rule" no longer being "safe".  In reality these opinions aren't new, a 4% WR strategy was never bulletproof to begin with, virtually no one actually follows this strategy blindly for years with zero changes or income, and every prediction that "this time it's different!" has looked foolish in retrospect. 


 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!