Author Topic: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty  (Read 39847 times)

JanetJackson

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: United States
    • How I actually made $50 just for taking a survey and being in the healthcare marketplace
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2018, 10:04:56 AM »
@Sailor Sam - Very good question.  There are tons of people on the forum optimizing their govt. benefits while in early retirement with that method championed as a 'strategy' rather than a 'drain on society'.  Thanks for bringing that up.

@PoutineLover +1 for a thoughtful response to someone literally saying "Don't Know, Don't care." (wow....)
It reminds me of one of my favorite meme-type-things that reads something like "the sanctity of marriage has not been degraded, your grandmothers simply didn't have the options to leave your abusive grandfathers or the ability to earn money for themselves"*.... something like that.  A public commentary on the conflated idea that divorce rates being higher is necessarily a bad thing, rather than the idea that it might actually be a GOOD thing.  *Please note, roles can certainly be reversed as can genders
...But that's a whole other thread.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2018, 10:18:00 AM »
I've tried to remain silent and let it roll off my back, but this thread is really upsetting.

I don't think that some of the commenters realize how much easier it is to make small "stupid" mistakes when you have a buffer or a support system.
I am no longer under the poverty line, but I spent the majority of my life there... and the smallest mistake or choice can keep you from getting ahead... It is SO IMPERATIVE to make consistent proper choices in succession for YEARS to get even a little bit ahead... while those who have more of a cash buffer or a solid support system based on even minor wealth can get away with certain choices or mistakes.

On a personal note/one very minor example in a full history of MANY choices like this:
How many times have I needed stitches in my life?  TWICE.  Once as a child, and once as an adult.
How many times have I gotten stitches? ZERO.  My dad superglued my leg and butterfly bandaged it when I was a kid, and it's the only time I think I remember ever having seen him close to tears. 
He was making a CHOICE that it wasn't quite bad enough for stitches... and that stitches would be cosmetic, but not medically necessary... so, in order to keep us moving in an upward trajectory, he fixed it himself. 
I was fine, it was "the right choice," but still a really shitty choice to have to make. 
The need for stitches was cosmetic... it healed 'fine' with the glue and butterfly bandages... but I wouldn't even have a scar today if I'd gotten stitches... but... instead I have a scar that covers about 1/2 of my knee.

I made the same choice for myself about 7 years ago when cutting homemade soap to sell at the farmers market (trying to get ahead, for me, has meant always having 2+ jobs). 
I'd already lost the whole batch since it had my blood on it, which means I'd already lost money.  This time, I was lucky enough to have a very close friend who is a nurse and gifted me surgical glue and this stuff called 'stitch floss tape' (or something like that) for the prior x-mas (she knows me). 
I decided to fix it myself, which was awful (I almost fainted, ha).. but since I'd already lost a HUGE batch of soap, I didn't want to ALSO pay for an ER or Urgent Care bill.  So, again, I made a shitty choice.

So, personal experiences aside...
It's little shitty awful choices in succession like this that help poor people get ahead.... $20, $40, $70 at a time.
It's also not making ANY or VERY FEW mistakes and/or expensive choices....

People choose not to have children, people choose not to pursue any of their passions, people choose not to have even one drink, because poor folks are perceived as alcoholics when they have a drink after a hard day, but somehow upper-class white women CONSTANTLY make jokes about "needing" wine to get through an event or a day... (these are not examples of my life, just examples)…
And if poor people make "mistakes" like falling in love or entering the workforce without further education at a minimum, they might be able to get ahead.

Yet people with access to wealth can make small non-optimal choices and even small mistakes and recover.  Do these people go to work when they have a fever?  Most likely not.  Do poor folks?  Generally, yes... even though they know it's the wrong thing to do for the public, for coworkers, etc.... if they make the wrong choice for themselves (vs the wrong choice for the public good), they'll get behind...
I, and many others, can't afford to make "the wrong choice".

Don't have children with multiple partners?  Look at Donald Trump (politics aside {seriously, leave them aside}). 
He sure did it, and did it send him into a tailspin or a life of paying retribution for those "wrong" choices?  No.
That's just one example... there are so many more.
Don't do drugs, even the mildest non-habit-forming ones that might help you with stress reduction (again, not advocating for this or speaking from experience, just an example).  Look at Bill Clinton.
He sure did it, and did that admission send him into a tailspin and set him up for spending the rest of his life paying retribution for that "wrong" choice?  No.


So it's especially hard to listen to folks in this thread berating people for their imperfect choices... as if being born into poverty was a choice. 

When people offer progressive solutions, instead of engaging positively (even if they think the idea won't work... at least TALK about some solutions), it seems like all too many people are ready to pass out the "well that's the way the cookie crumbles" summary of things... and/or suggest that the cash poor just "work harder"....


It really doesn't seem like some people have any idea how many small, tiny, ITTY BITTY choices poor people make every single day to get ahead... stuff that the higher class, or those born into relative security, don't even think about/don't even have to think about.

it is as if only the wealthy are permitted to have the full range of human experiences... passion, love, experiences, whatever....

Fantastic post. THANK YOU.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10880
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2018, 10:20:24 AM »
One of the things that I think is really funny about this forum is how much it has changed in its short lifespan. There have always been a bunch of people here who were just rich assholes crowing about how they're God's gift to mankind because they bake their own cupcakes, but a few years back, there was a much higher fraction of like, "Bearded Man Squats in Yurt" lifestyle weirdsters. The ratio keeps tilting more and more in favor of just a random sample of America's rich (like, more the bogleheads demographic and less early retirement extreme). The place I've noticed it the most is in threads to do with transit, where years ago there wasn't even a question about upholding the bicycle. But now poor guitar stv is beset on all sides by officious lardbody millionaires hollering out the windows of their 2017 Honda Pilot about SAFETY (they are virtuous, thrifty, and morally upright because they bought the Honda instead of a Mercedes GLC), because like most rich people they live in a perpetual state of mortal terror.

Anyway, threads like this are exactly the same. There were always meanspirited libertarians who fantasize about pissing right in the ugly face of today's lazy homeless, but now they have swelled their ranks and post with pride alongside hundreds of insecure (perpetual mortal terror) 54-year-olds with 7 million dollars whose lifelong philosophical project comprises self justification at the expense of everyone worse off than themselves.

Wow...Do you also perform a triple summersault on your dismount? Be careful...it is a long way down.
Ohh, and BTW, before you judge me, I was born in poverty.

[I've got this great idea on how to create a cycle of generational poverty..... It doesn't fix anything, costs a lot of money, but will make us feel better about our own lives (it does wonders for our schadenfreude).

It's surprising that even fiscal conservatives don't get the simple fact that in order to break the cycle of poverty, we need to start somewhere. We can't say "Fuck 'em," shrug our shoulders, and then complain that a single mother of 3 is still on welfare ("Why can't she get a good job?!?") and, 15 years later, complain that her adult children are on welfare ("If only they'd get some loans and go to school!") Lifting people out of poverty doesn't happen with scorn and tut-tuting about personal responsibility.

You are are right @bacchi.  The current system we have now is expensive, makes us feel better but creates a cycle of generational poverty.  The thing is, you can't lift people out of poverty by just throwing money at it.  It needs to be done with eduction and an ability to get these people to keep themselves out and not need the money in the end.

I just spent 10 minutes scouring the internet for a program I remember reading about in California. It might still be going on but I couldn't find it. Basically a mom lives in this facility with her newborn for free.  In addition they get free nutrition, medical care via medicaid and she gets an education. Not just enough for a GED, but on how to buy groceries, cook, keep a budget and a skill for a well paying job. To stay in the house she must also agree to a depot shot which is long term injectable birth control.  Eventually she graduates and goes on to have a career and live her life with her baby.  This is how you pull people out of poverty.  You provide a way to pull yourself out for the people who want it.  It is not just throwing money at a problem, it is a real solution.

Over the years I have worked with countless single moms who worked full time jobs while going to school. I can't imagine how they do it and it makes me look like a lazy piece of shit.  But it can and is done every day.  There is no reason why this woman can't do it also.  Unfortunately she is indeed a result of tons of poor life choices some of which is not disciplining her kids who will likely follow in her footsteps perpetuating their poverty.
You don't fucking know that.  You don't know her.  You are applying whatever life experience and reading you've done about 1 or 2 or 10 other people and applying a blanket brush to the whole situation.

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2018, 10:22:32 AM »
I think we're having too much fun for welcome and general discussion. Mods, care to send this one in the direction of Off Topic?

Anyways, I gotta put my two cents in.

Part of the problem with our political discourse is we don't extend the benefit of the doubt to each other.

If a conservative tells you they care about the plight of the poor and they believe aid/welfare can actually exacerbate the problem, I think it's rude to accuse them of being dishonest and purely self-interested.

There's clearly a case to be made that people will rise to the expectations others have for them, however low or high. In St. Paul, MN our mayor is interested in getting rid of late fees at libraries. I'm torn on this, because I think it's great to get more people in libraries. But at the same time, it sends a message that you don't have to be responsible for these books. You can leave them wherever, under a car seat for a couple years, and you're still free and clear to check out more books without consequences.

I'm not concerned about the losses St. Paul will incur, they're not all that significant in the big picture. I'm concerned about the lack of civic responsibility this reinforces.

It seems we're lowering the bar of expectations to accommodate those who don't meet it.

Has anyone heard the phrase "The soft bigotry of low expectations?"

If we make excuses for and bail fully capable people out of the messes they create for themselves, they'll start to believe they're not responsible for and incapable of working their own way out. To me, that sounds like a very tragic outcome for a human life.



However, I'm aware that the economy is rapidly changing and it's totally possible that we'll only have 2 billion jobs for the 10 billion humans on earth in 2040. I agree that the role of jobs might be changing. But the fundamental contribution to one's community is still at the heart of this. Everyone will live somewhere and interact with neighbors - those who do so in a way that is beneficial to those around them will continue to live a good life, and those who live in a way that is detrimental to those around them will continue in their negative cycle. Jobs have simply been the way our economic system has (albeit very imperfectly in many instances) rewarded folks for their contributions.


mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10880
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2018, 10:30:08 AM »
Quote
He was making a CHOICE that it wasn't quite bad enough for stitches... and that stitches would be cosmetic, but not medically necessary... so, in order to keep us moving in an upward trajectory, he fixed it himself. 
I was fine, it was "the right choice," but still a really shitty choice to have to make. 
The need for stitches was cosmetic... it healed 'fine' with the glue and butterfly bandages... but I wouldn't even have a scar today if I'd gotten stitches... but... instead I have a scar that covers about 1/2 of my knee.

Hey, I have that same knee scar!  No stitches!

As an adult, I sliced open my hand the night before a big 8 hour professional test.  Difference?  I was in the Navy, so I wrapped my hand in a Gatorade towel and drove myself over to the Army base for stitches and a tetanus shot.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2018, 10:33:09 AM »
"Make Good Choices" is a terrific slogan, but really will not solve the problem of poverty overall, because ... people are human. Sometimes they make lousy choices, especially when they are young.

It's going to take a far more interventionist approach to nudge people into those better choices. I think you'd get the most bang for your buck working with moms with young children - provide great daycare and transportation and educational support and cooking classes and job training - but it will not be cheap.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10880
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2018, 10:34:21 AM »
Quote
Don't know, don't care.  Did I help her create her situation?  Probably not, she did it on her own.  So she can fix it on her own.

So, how about the children who didn't create their situation?

What if they are disabled?

What if they have learning issues due to fetal alcohol syndrome, brain damage.

What if they just aren't "smart"?

What if they have no family.

Eh, fuck 'em, they have to figure it out for themselves.


Candace

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 582
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2018, 10:45:35 AM »
I've tried to remain silent and let it roll off my back, but this thread is really upsetting.

I don't think that some of the commenters realize how much easier it is to make small "stupid" mistakes when you have a buffer or a support system.

I am no longer under the poverty line, but I spent the majority of my life there... and the smallest mistake or choice can keep you from getting ahead... It is SO IMPERATIVE to make consistent proper choices in succession for YEARS to get even a little bit ahead... while those who have more of a cash buffer or a solid support system based on even minor wealth can get away with certain choices or mistakes.

{snip}

Yet people with access to wealth can make small non-optimal choices and even small mistakes and recover. 

{snip}

An anecdote to support @JanetJackson : long before I met my husband, his then-teenage son did something stupid while driving. I believe he was going to be on the hook for a reckless driving violation. But because his dad (my future husband) is a lawyer, my future stepson was able to just sit back and not worry too much while his dad navigated the legal system for him. So because he had a cushy support system, as opposed to being poor and not savvy about the legal system, he was able to avoid having that on his record.

A small thing? Maybe. But my future stepson was a bit of a hothead back then. What other poor choices might he have made (and probably did)? And if he had already had a reckless driving violation, how might that have piled on and created the problems that happen when multiple issues combine in peoples' lives? My point is that once those small things (that better-off people can avoid) start combining, many people start feeling beat down enough that they don't react the way better-off people might expect. Why do our expectations differ? Because we've always looked at situations from a perspective of safety and security. We haven't had to muster any mental toughness to make sure we were at what we consider to be a "normal" level of functionality. We haven't had to struggle to obtain food, medical care, or attention to and from our families, for the most part. Once THOSE things become hard to obtain, it requires a lot MORE toughness to overcome what we would consider a small obstacle, like disciplining the children consistently or hiring a lawyer to take care of a ticket.

So yes, chronically cash-strapped people require extra help. They just do. I, for one, would rather pay taxes and vote for people who will apply the money in ways best thought to solve long-term problems. Sometimes people who have the best intentions, like social scientists, get the remedies wrong. Actually, they get them wrong a lot. Is that a reason to stop trying? No.

tct

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 91
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2018, 10:54:07 AM »
Lifting people out of poverty doesn't happen with scorn and tut-tuting about personal responsibility.

It happened for me.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2018, 10:55:48 AM »
Perhaps the miscommunication here is what it means to end poverty? Is it creating a world where no one is poor enough to need government transfer payments? Or is it creating a world where there are sufficient government transfer payments to ensure that that no one is actually living in poverty?

Advocates of the first approach will criticize the second as welfare and creating a moral hazard. Advocates of the second approach will criticize the second approach as unachievable and heartless. Advocates of both approaches will say that they are working to truly end poverty.

This is exactly right. Plus doing both options is less expensive in the long run.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2018, 11:06:00 AM »
Lifting people out of poverty doesn't happen with scorn and tut-tuting about personal responsibility.

It happened for me.

Great. If we pile on some more, I'm sure it'll lift the other 40 million people in poverty into the middle class shortly.

Now ask yourself why that's not working. Also ask yourself if, perhaps, there are other methods that would help.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2018, 11:10:48 AM »
Quote
Don't know, don't care.  Did I help her create her situation?  Probably not, she did it on her own.  So she can fix it on her own.

So, how about the children who didn't create their situation?

What if they are disabled?

What if they have learning issues due to fetal alcohol syndrome, brain damage.

What if they just aren't "smart"?

What if they have no family.

Eh, fuck 'em, they have to figure it out for themselves.

Some people are simply shortsighted.

That's assuming people here don't want our cities to have slums like New Delhi. Admittedly, I always overestimate the humanity of the well-off.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2018, 11:12:13 AM »
One of the things that I think is really funny about this forum is how much it has changed in its short lifespan. There have always been a bunch of people here who were just rich assholes crowing about how they're God's gift to mankind because they bake their own cupcakes, but a few years back, there was a much higher fraction of like, "Bearded Man Squats in Yurt" lifestyle weirdsters. The ratio keeps tilting more and more in favor of just a random sample of America's rich (like, more the bogleheads demographic and less early retirement extreme). The place I've noticed it the most is in threads to do with transit, where years ago there wasn't even a question about upholding the bicycle. But now poor guitar stv is beset on all sides by officious lardbody millionaires hollering out the windows of their 2017 Honda Pilot about SAFETY (they are virtuous, thrifty, and morally upright because they bought the Honda instead of a Mercedes GLC), because like most rich people they live in a perpetual state of mortal terror.

Anyway, threads like this are exactly the same. There were always meanspirited libertarians who fantasize about pissing right in the ugly face of today's lazy homeless, but now they have swelled their ranks and post with pride alongside hundreds of insecure (perpetual mortal terror) 54-year-olds with 7 million dollars whose lifelong philosophical project comprises self justification at the expense of everyone worse off than themselves.

Wow...Do you also perform a triple summersault on your dismount? Be careful...it is a long way down.
Ohh, and BTW, before you judge me, I was born in poverty.

[I've got this great idea on how to create a cycle of generational poverty..... It doesn't fix anything, costs a lot of money, but will make us feel better about our own lives (it does wonders for our schadenfreude).

It's surprising that even fiscal conservatives don't get the simple fact that in order to break the cycle of poverty, we need to start somewhere. We can't say "Fuck 'em," shrug our shoulders, and then complain that a single mother of 3 is still on welfare ("Why can't she get a good job?!?") and, 15 years later, complain that her adult children are on welfare ("If only they'd get some loans and go to school!") Lifting people out of poverty doesn't happen with scorn and tut-tuting about personal responsibility.

You are are right @bacchi.  The current system we have now is expensive, makes us feel better but creates a cycle of generational poverty.  The thing is, you can't lift people out of poverty by just throwing money at it.  It needs to be done with eduction and an ability to get these people to keep themselves out and not need the money in the end.

I just spent 10 minutes scouring the internet for a program I remember reading about in California. It might still be going on but I couldn't find it. Basically a mom lives in this facility with her newborn for free.  In addition they get free nutrition, medical care via medicaid and she gets an education. Not just enough for a GED, but on how to buy groceries, cook, keep a budget and a skill for a well paying job. To stay in the house she must also agree to a depot shot which is long term injectable birth control.  Eventually she graduates and goes on to have a career and live her life with her baby.  This is how you pull people out of poverty.  You provide a way to pull yourself out for the people who want it.  It is not just throwing money at a problem, it is a real solution.

Over the years I have worked with countless single moms who worked full time jobs while going to school. I can't imagine how they do it and it makes me look like a lazy piece of shit.  But it can and is done every day.  There is no reason why this woman can't do it also.  Unfortunately she is indeed a result of tons of poor life choices some of which is not disciplining her kids who will likely follow in her footsteps perpetuating their poverty.
You don't fucking know that.  You don't know her.  You are applying whatever life experience and reading you've done about 1 or 2 or 10 other people and applying a blanket brush to the whole situation.

What exactly do you disagree with and why are you cursing?

Did you read everything I wrote?

Aelias

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 427
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2018, 11:32:21 AM »
I've tried to remain silent and let it roll off my back, but this thread is really upsetting.

I don't think that some of the commenters realize how much easier it is to make small "stupid" mistakes when you have a buffer or a support system.
I am no longer under the poverty line, but I spent the majority of my life there... and the smallest mistake or choice can keep you from getting ahead... It is SO IMPERATIVE to make consistent proper choices in succession for YEARS to get even a little bit ahead... while those who have more of a cash buffer or a solid support system based on even minor wealth can get away with certain choices or mistakes.

. . .

It really doesn't seem like some people have any idea how many small, tiny, ITTY BITTY choices poor people make every single day to get ahead... stuff that the higher class, or those born into relative security, don't even think about/don't even have to think about.

it is as if only the wealthy are permitted to have the full range of human experiences passion, love, experiences, whatever....

Thank you for all of this.  But this right here hits the heart of the matter.

Jouer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 501
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2018, 11:33:31 AM »


No doubt. If she had an IT job at Facebook with childcare onsite, she'd be set.

Even if she was a teacher, she'd be doing a lot better.

Now, how does a single mother get a good job? Does she go back to school? Who pays for that?


Don't know, don't care.  Did I help her create her situation?  Probably not, she did it on her own.  So she can fix it on her own.

America in 1883: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America in 2018: "we don't know, we don't care"

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2018, 11:40:58 AM »
That's what Jesus said.  "Screw the poor, it's their own damn fault."  Oh wait, I'm wrong.  That's not what Jesus said.

It's too bad that Jesus message has so little to do with most modern Christianity.  He seems like he was a pretty cool guy, I think we would get along.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2070
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2018, 11:46:31 AM »
(Some) early retirees: "UBI is a non-starter. We shouldn't be paying people not to work. Get a job."

Also early retirees: "I'm quitting my job at 30 and manipulating my reportable income so that I get fat ACA subsidies to pay for my healthcare."

:)

charis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3162
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2018, 12:40:10 PM »
In St. Paul, MN our mayor is interested in getting rid of late fees at libraries. I'm torn on this, because I think it's great to get more people in libraries. But at the same time, it sends a message that you don't have to be responsible for these books. You can leave them wherever, under a car seat for a couple years, and you're still free and clear to check out more books without consequences.

Have you read fine print of this policy?  Because we have one here, and while there are no "late fees," you are required to return the items within a reasonable period or replace/pay the cost to replace.  I don't recall the specifics, but if you don't return it within a few weeks or so after the due date, you are charged for the book and you can't borrow again until you pay it or return the item. So, in that respect, it's not that different from the old system - just no traditional late fees if you return it late.

The result is, my family has avoided some small fines and had to replace two books (which we have needed to do under the old system as well).  We still try to return everything on time and I don't think we keep stuff any longer as a result of no fees.  I think that will be the case for most regular borrowers.  In fact, we are probably more motivated to find lost books because we can avoid paying anything.  With the old system, the fees add up quickly and at a certain point, it makes more sense to just keep the book.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2018, 01:32:58 PM »
The library system here still charges late fees, but they don't cut off your borrowing privileges if you have outstanding fees. I think it is FABULOUS. I think we all lose out when some kid can't use the library because they lost a book or mom wouldn't drive to the library.

robartsd

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3342
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2018, 01:38:16 PM »
Universal basic income is the answer.  Stop demonizing corporations.  We're all trying to FIRE here so let's stop demonizing those that will make that possible.  People (and corporations) respond to incentives.  It's Econ 101.  So change the system.  UBI, universal healthcare (Bismarck please, not Canadian style like I grew up with,) college or trade school for those that put the effort in and have the ability.  Societal problems need societal solutions.

Here's an interesting working paper and it's yet another problem in the making:  http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/video-killed-radio-star

UBI so society can live in a basement and play video games 23.5 hours a day? Seriously?

That's your take away from my link?  Ah well.
In the context of your post, I can see that. I don't see the article supporting UBI much at all. Based on the article my first impression is that UBI would support such video game addicts who would never shower.

What I found interesting about it is that the numbers for lower-skilled workers was anyone without a bachelor's degree. I wonder how much worse it looks if you set the threshold for lower-skilled to a complete lack of post-secondary education credentials (trade school certificates, associates degree, etc.)

CalBal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1155
  • Location: US
  • Dont Panic
    • Journal
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2018, 01:43:49 PM »
Not to distract from the current topic of the OP, but

In St. Paul, MN our mayor is interested in getting rid of late fees at libraries. I'm torn on this, because I think it's great to get more people in libraries. But at the same time, it sends a message that you don't have to be responsible for these books. You can leave them wherever, under a car seat for a couple years, and you're still free and clear to check out more books without consequences.

Have you read fine print of this policy?  Because we have one here, and while there are no "late fees," you are required to return the items within a reasonable period or replace/pay the cost to replace.  I don't recall the specifics, but if you don't return it within a few weeks or so after the due date, you are charged for the book and you can't borrow again until you pay it or return the item. So, in that respect, it's not that different from the old system - just no traditional late fees if you return it late.

The result is, my family has avoided some small fines and had to replace two books (which we have needed to do under the old system as well).  We still try to return everything on time and I don't think we keep stuff any longer as a result of no fees.  I think that will be the case for most regular borrowers.  In fact, we are probably more motivated to find lost books because we can avoid paying anything.  With the old system, the fees add up quickly and at a certain point, it makes more sense to just keep the book.

^ Agree. My city recently enacted this. They did a study and found the late fee system was revenue neutral (that is to say, it cost as much money to administer and enact the system as it brought in). Further, the late fee revenue was not part of the library operating budget but it went instead to the general fund. (No I did not read the actual study, this is what I understand it found from summaries.) If you are a month late you get charged for the book for replacement and borrowing privileges are suspended until you do. I suspect this greatly simplifies things on the library's end, and will motivate the vast majority of people to get those materials back.

Carry on.

PiobStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2018, 02:14:12 PM »
I've read some of Hurst's papers, but that article does a much better job of explaining in clear english some of the problems he is working on, thanks for posting @PiobStache.

I suspect he is right that a life of nothing but playing video games is quite appealing to many at age 13, remains appealing to a significant number in their 20s, and then starts to become much less appealing in 30s and 40s, at which point a decade out of the labor market without developing job skills or education will make it much harder to find work than it already is for unskilled workers in their 20s.

Thanks for the shout out and happy you comprehended the working paper vs. the prior poster that derived some sophomoric response from it.  I'm not sure how we get the 20 year old to understand what he's doing to 40 year old him but economically modeling the rationale behaviour of the 20 year old is certainly part of the solution.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2018, 02:34:28 PM »
I've read some of Hurst's papers, but that article does a much better job of explaining in clear english some of the problems he is working on, thanks for posting @PiobStache.

I suspect he is right that a life of nothing but playing video games is quite appealing to many at age 13, remains appealing to a significant number in their 20s, and then starts to become much less appealing in 30s and 40s, at which point a decade out of the labor market without developing job skills or education will make it much harder to find work than it already is for unskilled workers in their 20s.

Thanks for the shout out and happy you comprehended the working paper vs. the prior poster that derived some sophomoric response from it.  I'm not sure how we get the 20 year old to understand what he's doing to 40 year old him but economically modeling the rationale behaviour of the 20 year old is certainly part of the solution.

Your link had the opposite effect of your intent. Instead of being for your suggestion of UBI, it was actually showing why it would be a bad thing. Did you read it?

The Finns already tried it and did a complete U-turn on their policy. They paid the long term unemployed and hoped that would incentivize them to find a job. Because the Finnish welfare benefits are actually punitive to those who work (like here in the US) they wanted to see if people who didn't want to work under the old system would get a job as losing their benefit would not be an issue.

What they found and then did was in fact quite amazing contrary to all those perfect world utopian economist theories...the Finns are now making NOT working punitive, in that in order to receive welfare one must work at least 18 hours a week.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2018, 02:37:40 PM »
Universal basic income is the answer.  Stop demonizing corporations.  We're all trying to FIRE here so let's stop demonizing those that will make that possible.  People (and corporations) respond to incentives.  It's Econ 101.  So change the system.  UBI, universal healthcare (Bismarck please, not Canadian style like I grew up with,) college or trade school for those that put the effort in and have the ability.  Societal problems need societal solutions.

Here's an interesting working paper and it's yet another problem in the making:  http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/video-killed-radio-star

UBI so society can live in a basement and play video games 23.5 hours a day? Seriously?

The entire point of this website is people aspiring to retire early, AKA not have to work for a living. That's a good thing! What people do with their time when they no longer have to work is their choice.

You are seriously comparing someone who worked and invested to be able to live off their capital to someone who gets money from the government teet?

Wow have I gone to sleep and woken up in Russia? I just can't even.

Meh. I live off the government teet. My shelter, food, and medical care all come from tax payers. It could be argued that I proved service in exchange for my nipple, but eventually my pension will kick in and I fully intend to cease any sort of labor. Baring early death, the taxpayers will likely give me $1m in pension monies. God alone knows what my medical costs will total.

Worse! The largess of sustenance far exceeds my actual needs. I'm saving at the tax payer's expense. Why the fuck am I celebrated, while this woman is called a wastrel, slattern, and whore?

Yeah, enlisting in the armed forces, receiving training, and working a job for several decades potentially putting your life on the line to receive a pension is exactly the same as sitting in a basement playing video games for that same time period.

Don't bother responding, we really have nothing to debate if you truly feel the two are equatable.

Sailor Sam

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5731
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2018, 02:50:25 PM »
Universal basic income is the answer.  Stop demonizing corporations.  We're all trying to FIRE here so let's stop demonizing those that will make that possible.  People (and corporations) respond to incentives.  It's Econ 101.  So change the system.  UBI, universal healthcare (Bismarck please, not Canadian style like I grew up with,) college or trade school for those that put the effort in and have the ability.  Societal problems need societal solutions.

Here's an interesting working paper and it's yet another problem in the making:  http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/video-killed-radio-star

UBI so society can live in a basement and play video games 23.5 hours a day? Seriously?

The entire point of this website is people aspiring to retire early, AKA not have to work for a living. That's a good thing! What people do with their time when they no longer have to work is their choice.

You are seriously comparing someone who worked and invested to be able to live off their capital to someone who gets money from the government teet?

Wow have I gone to sleep and woken up in Russia? I just can't even.

Meh. I live off the government teet. My shelter, food, and medical care all come from tax payers. It could be argued that I proved service in exchange for my nipple, but eventually my pension will kick in and I fully intend to cease any sort of labor. Baring early death, the taxpayers will likely give me $1m in pension monies. God alone knows what my medical costs will total.

Worse! The largess of sustenance far exceeds my actual needs. I'm saving at the tax payer's expense. Why the fuck am I celebrated, while this woman is called a wastrel, slattern, and whore?

Yeah, enlisting in the armed forces, receiving training, and working a job for several decades potentially putting your life on the line to receive a pension is exactly the same as sitting in a basement playing video games for that same time period.

Don't bother responding, we really have nothing to debate if you truly feel the two are equatable.

Ma'am, yes MA'AM.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2018, 02:53:01 PM »
The Finns already tried it and did a complete U-turn on their policy. They paid the long term unemployed and hoped that would incentivize them to find a job. Because the Finnish welfare benefits are actually punitive to those who work (like here in the US) they wanted to see if people who didn't want to work under the old system would get a job as losing their benefit would not be an issue.

What they found and then did was in fact quite amazing contrary to all those perfect world utopian economist theories...the Finns are now making NOT working punitive, in that in order to receive welfare one must work at least 18 hours a week.

I've read that they're stopping the program but the researchers wanted to continue it. The results won't be published until next year. Do you have an early look at the results?

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/Finland-is-killing-its-world-famous-basic-income-experiment--/

Quote from: bi
No official results of Finland’s basic income experiment will be published until 2019, after the pilot has come to an end.

PiobStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2018, 02:56:56 PM »
I've read some of Hurst's papers, but that article does a much better job of explaining in clear english some of the problems he is working on, thanks for posting @PiobStache.

I suspect he is right that a life of nothing but playing video games is quite appealing to many at age 13, remains appealing to a significant number in their 20s, and then starts to become much less appealing in 30s and 40s, at which point a decade out of the labor market without developing job skills or education will make it much harder to find work than it already is for unskilled workers in their 20s.

Thanks for the shout out and happy you comprehended the working paper vs. the prior poster that derived some sophomoric response from it.  I'm not sure how we get the 20 year old to understand what he's doing to 40 year old him but economically modeling the rationale behaviour of the 20 year old is certainly part of the solution.

Your link had the opposite effect of your intent. Instead of being for your suggestion of UBI, it was actually showing why it would be a bad thing. Did you read it?

The Finns already tried it and did a complete U-turn on their policy. They paid the long term unemployed and hoped that would incentivize them to find a job. Because the Finnish welfare benefits are actually punitive to those who work (like here in the US) they wanted to see if people who didn't want to work under the old system would get a job as losing their benefit would not be an issue.

What they found and then did was in fact quite amazing contrary to all those perfect world utopian economist theories...the Finns are now making NOT working punitive, in that in order to receive welfare one must work at least 18 hours a week.

LOL, of course I read it.  If you feel it demonstrated UBI was a bad thing at a societal level you did not read it too well.  If you actually read the link you'd see it gave reasons why higher paid people do not sit around playing video games vs. working.  Any impact on the labour participation rate would be at the margins due to the reasons stated in the link.

Did you just read Ayn Rand in the last year or so?  Serious question.

PiobStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2018, 03:05:18 PM »

The Finns already tried it and did a complete U-turn on their policy. They paid the long term unemployed and hoped that would incentivize them to find a job. Because the Finnish welfare benefits are actually punitive to those who work (like here in the US) they wanted to see if people who didn't want to work under the old system would get a job as losing their benefit would not be an issue.

What they found and then did was in fact quite amazing contrary to all those perfect world utopian economist theories...the Finns are now making NOT working punitive, in that in order to receive welfare one must work at least 18 hours a week.

Btw, this is about as nuanced an analysis of what happened in Finland as your analysis of the working paper I linked was.  There's also the data from the Canadian experiments in Manitoba showed nothing but positive effects from a minimum income.  Of course other externalities happened, like less domestic violence, and I'd deem that a positive thing.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2018, 03:10:09 PM »
The Finns already tried it and did a complete U-turn on their policy. They paid the long term unemployed and hoped that would incentivize them to find a job. Because the Finnish welfare benefits are actually punitive to those who work (like here in the US) they wanted to see if people who didn't want to work under the old system would get a job as losing their benefit would not be an issue.

What they found and then did was in fact quite amazing contrary to all those perfect world utopian economist theories...the Finns are now making NOT working punitive, in that in order to receive welfare one must work at least 18 hours a week.

I've read that they're stopping the program but the researchers wanted to continue it. The results won't be published until next year. Do you have an early look at the results?

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/Finland-is-killing-its-world-famous-basic-income-experiment--/

Quote from: bi
No official results of Finland’s basic income experiment will be published until 2019, after the pilot has come to an end.

No, but their actions speak louder than words. They canceled the program early and instead changed it to require working to receive benefits.

PiobStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2018, 03:15:28 PM »
No, but their actions speak louder than words. They canceled the program early and instead changed it to require working to receive benefits.

Except you are completely wrong.  https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN08GY2nIrZo/content/contrary-to-reports-the-basic-income-experiment-in-finland-will-continue-until-the-end-of-2018

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2018, 03:20:00 PM »
Personally I'm not surprised a subject such as UBI has such high support in a "community" that wants to retire early.

If you guys get UBI now, you can retire even earlier. Notwithstanding large increases in inflation that it will bring.

But, the bottom % of society is not like the people on this board. Unless you are inserted into their culture you cannot fathom their lifestyles. Like I said before my buddy owned 13 low income housing units, the stories he told...it was incredible.

I fully support giving everyone support to get themselves out of poverty but you can only walk the horse to the river you can't make them drink. I can't even believe people are defending this poster child woman, she made mistake after mistake. Just think, had she stopped having kids after he first born where would she be now? How much would the taxpayers have saved? This is nuts to even be thinking about giving her MORE!

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2018, 03:21:37 PM »
No, but their actions speak louder than words. They canceled the program early and instead changed it to require working to receive benefits.

Except you are completely wrong.  https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN08GY2nIrZo/content/contrary-to-reports-the-basic-income-experiment-in-finland-will-continue-until-the-end-of-2018
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

PiobStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2018, 03:24:12 PM »
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

A simple, "I was wrong" is fitting here.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2018, 03:26:05 PM »
Also of note Finland typically runs a surplus for its governmental budget. So they have the ability to do this. I guess cutting taxes isn't really a thing over there.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2018, 03:27:12 PM »
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

A simple, "I was wrong" is fitting here.
I wasn't wrong, the news reports were.

TempusFugit

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Location: In my own head, usually
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2018, 04:39:27 PM »
(Some) early retirees: "UBI is a non-starter. We shouldn't be paying people not to work. Get a job."

Also early retirees: "I'm quitting my job at 30 and manipulating my reportable income so that I get fat ACA subsidies to pay for my healthcare."

:)

This is something that bothers me, too.  It does seem to border on the ''welfare queen" stereotype that used to be bandied about.  I don't feel the same way about maximizing deductions and taking advantage of tax deferred retirement programs, but the idea of using what might be considered a 'loophole' if only in spirit, to take advantage of a program clearly intended to support poor people, not people wealthy enough to choose not to work does bother my conscience. 

I think lots of us conflate the notion that insurance rates are criminally high with the idea that it is somehow 'fair' to use taxpayer money to help us pay for it.  It is still taxpayer money.  I haven't really decided how I will handle that when the time comes.  Of course, by then it may be a moot point because ACA may not be a thing in a few years. 

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2018, 06:12:45 PM »
(Some) early retirees: "UBI is a non-starter. We shouldn't be paying people not to work. Get a job."

Also early retirees: "I'm quitting my job at 30 and manipulating my reportable income so that I get fat ACA subsidies to pay for my healthcare."

:)

This is something that bothers me, too.  It does seem to border on the ''welfare queen" stereotype that used to be bandied about.  I don't feel the same way about maximizing deductions and taking advantage of tax deferred retirement programs, but the idea of using what might be considered a 'loophole' if only in spirit, to take advantage of a program clearly intended to support poor people, not people wealthy enough to choose not to work does bother my conscience. 

ACA just for poor people?  A similar comment was made in the other thread:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/decreasing-income-to-increase-benefits/msg2115237/#msg2115237

Institutionalized

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2018, 09:05:45 PM »
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

A simple, "I was wrong" is fitting here.
I wasn't wrong, the news reports were.
Your seeming lack of self-awareness is simply astonishing.  I hope it's just an Internet act.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5263
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2018, 10:49:53 PM »
No, but their actions speak louder than words. They canceled the program early and instead changed it to require working to receive benefits.

Except you are completely wrong.  https://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archive/-/asset_publisher/lN08GY2nIrZo/content/contrary-to-reports-the-basic-income-experiment-in-finland-will-continue-until-the-end-of-2018
Well that she interesting, I wonder why they flipped. Interesting that they will not continue it though.

After reading the two articles, it does not appear that the articles conflict. One states that a category of recipients, working people, was not added to the study this year, though the original plan was to add them. The other states that a finance minister wants to add work requirements to Finland's existing welfare system.

No one had to "flip" for these things to both be true. Most likely, researchers designed the study and got the first phase funded. The choice to not fund the addition of working people to the UBI study may have reflected political priorities rather than results of the the study's first phase. The second article said that the finance minister wants to add work requirements, but doesn't say that the policy of adding work requirements will occur. I think the fairest reading is that in Finland, as here, matters of UBI appear to be the subject of debate.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 10:51:55 PM by BicycleB »

kite

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 900
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2018, 02:19:53 AM »
Society cannot fix the problems that men inflict upon their families.  The comments almost universally miss this point.  The NYTIMES article entirely absolves the men who caused her poverty.  Some commenters saying SHE did this to herself so SHE must do X, Y, Z to fix it or (with her children) suffer the consequences indefinitely.  Others think a large enough UBI cash transfer is the solution to poverty, as if poverty could be solved.  Jesus said the poor you will always have with you.  He was quoting Moses.  It was true thousands of years ago and still is.  We will always have poor people. 
But why do we have this particular set of poor people, and growing groups of so many more like them?  Drugs and the normalization of men abandoning their children. 
If you believe a cash transfer is the solution, just hand out some of your cash.  I'm throwing down the gauntlet of challenge.  Just take $10k of what you've already got saved for your later years and give it to a poor person. Could be $10k or $15k or whatever you think the magic number is. It's your case study.  Then report back if they are still poor.  I dare you. 
I have done it. 
Some results have been good. And some were a complete waste of money. It all comes back around to the the same point:  you cannot fix the problems that men inflict upon their families.   

Cache_Stash

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2018, 03:01:22 AM »
One of the things that I think is really funny about this forum is how much it has changed in its short lifespan. There have always been a bunch of people here who were just rich assholes crowing about how they're God's gift to mankind because they bake their own cupcakes, but a few years back, there was a much higher fraction of like, "Bearded Man Squats in Yurt" lifestyle weirdsters. The ratio keeps tilting more and more in favor of just a random sample of America's rich (like, more the bogleheads demographic and less early retirement extreme). The place I've noticed it the most is in threads to do with transit, where years ago there wasn't even a question about upholding the bicycle. But now poor guitar stv is beset on all sides by officious lardbody millionaires hollering out the windows of their 2017 Honda Pilot about SAFETY (they are virtuous, thrifty, and morally upright because they bought the Honda instead of a Mercedes GLC), because like most rich people they live in a perpetual state of mortal terror.

Anyway, threads like this are exactly the same. There were always meanspirited libertarians who fantasize about pissing right in the ugly face of today's lazy homeless, but now they have swelled their ranks and post with pride alongside hundreds of insecure (perpetual mortal terror) 54-year-olds with 7 million dollars whose lifelong philosophical project comprises self justification at the expense of everyone worse off than themselves.

Wow...Do you also perform a triple summersault on your dismount? Be careful...it is a long way down.
Ohh, and BTW, before you judge me, I was born in poverty.

[I've got this great idea on how to create a cycle of generational poverty..... It doesn't fix anything, costs a lot of money, but will make us feel better about our own lives (it does wonders for our schadenfreude).

It's surprising that even fiscal conservatives don't get the simple fact that in order to break the cycle of poverty, we need to start somewhere. We can't say "Fuck 'em," shrug our shoulders, and then complain that a single mother of 3 is still on welfare ("Why can't she get a good job?!?") and, 15 years later, complain that her adult children are on welfare ("If only they'd get some loans and go to school!") Lifting people out of poverty doesn't happen with scorn and tut-tuting about personal responsibility.

You are are right @bacchi.  The current system we have now is expensive, makes us feel better but creates a cycle of generational poverty.  The thing is, you can't lift people out of poverty by just throwing money at it.  It needs to be done with eduction and an ability to get these people to keep themselves out and not need the money in the end.

I just spent 10 minutes scouring the internet for a program I remember reading about in California. It might still be going on but I couldn't find it. Basically a mom lives in this facility with her newborn for free.  In addition they get free nutrition, medical care via medicaid and she gets an education. Not just enough for a GED, but on how to buy groceries, cook, keep a budget and a skill for a well paying job. To stay in the house she must also agree to a depot shot which is long term injectable birth control.  Eventually she graduates and goes on to have a career and live her life with her baby.  This is how you pull people out of poverty.  You provide a way to pull yourself out for the people who want it.  It is not just throwing money at a problem, it is a real solution.

Over the years I have worked with countless single moms who worked full time jobs while going to school. I can't imagine how they do it and it makes me look like a lazy piece of shit.  But it can and is done every day.  There is no reason why this woman can't do it also.  Unfortunately she is indeed a result of tons of poor life choices some of which is not disciplining her kids who will likely follow in her footsteps perpetuating their poverty.

I agree with you that education is the solution.  Throwing money at something normally yields nothing.  Especially if the receiver isn't educated on how to properly use money as a resource.

runbikerun

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2018, 03:30:12 AM »
So exactly how long should a person be punished for past poor choices?  Really, I want to know.  We should open up that for discussion about...everyone.  Those poor men who preyed on women and harassed them - they apologized already!

We are talking about a 33 year old mother of 3 teenagers.  Let's do the math - she had her first child at 16.  I guess she needs to be punished forever for being a dumb, stupid 16 year old.  And 19 year old, the age she was when kid #2 rolled along.

You cannot extrapolate your own friends and their management of diabetes on whatever jobs they have to someone else entirely.

I have a 12 year old.  Yes, he is able to (mostly) look after himself after school - but only because we live in a safe neighborhood, and I feel (mostly) okay with him walking himself the mile+ home.  I'd feel better if he did it with friends.  Instead, 3/5 days he stays at school in the after care so he can do homework.

So what would you expect three teenagers with no home to really do?  Especially when they live in an unsafe area? 

And honestly, children and teenagers can be loud.  That's pretty normal.  It's completely understandable that grandma doesn't want them around, considering her failing health. 

As far as I can tell, she made her last "mistake" 12 years ago when she had her third child at 21.  So...we should still punish her?

Quote
It gets even worse, she will make an extra $5,000 off the government on her "tax refund" (credits), $9,000 in disability checks, and another $6,000 in SNAP.

Right?? CLEARLY SHE'S NOT POOR ENOUGH NOR HAS SHE SUFFERED ENOUGH.  We really need to make sure her disabled child doesn't get any help, that the children starve and end up homeless.  THAT FIXES EVERYTHING.

Fuck the disabled, amirite?

You should face the consequences of your actions until you mitigate them yourself.  If I spent all my money next month on dumb shit and couldn't pay my rent, I'd expect to be kicked out of my apartment, not to have government (ie... taxpayers like you) come save me.

The root of the problem is broken families, as a result of glorification of trash values in the media, music, movies, and culture.  If you go to countries with quality family structures still in place and observe single mothers or deadbeat fathers, they will be shamed and basically disowned by family members and society as a whole.

If there were no safety nets when people make shit choices and have kids with criminals and deviants, it would happen a lot less.  You can't save everyone.

I'd really love to see some evidence for the above. Crime rates are consistently lower and social mobility consistently higher in developed countries with substantial welfare systems, which is more or less precisely the opposite of what you're claiming.

fuzzy math

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1726
  • Age: 42
  • Location: PNW
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2018, 06:20:54 AM »
Malkynn, most people here aren’t shitheads. I’ve seen more defense of human decency by different people in this thread, and the unfortunate repetition by a select (known to this forum) few.
Your stories above are great and help to reinforce things to those of us with a conscience. The others will continue to troll this board unfortunately.

Also big props to the previous poster(s) who mentioned that the men in this situation are completely absolved, while the women must wear that scarlet letter every day for the rest of their lives.

I did some dumb shit at 16, 19 etc. Frankly I’m lucky to be alive, not addicted to drugs, or not a teen parent. It’s only because I was raised in a family with means that I recognized I didn’t want those things. I think if all of you thought real hard in your life you could see how one single choice could have dramatically changed your life. Even the most judgmental here probably were having sex by age 19, and only by sheer luck (birth control does fail!!!) didn’t become a parent then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2018, 06:27:56 AM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5263
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2018, 07:05:59 AM »
I'd be more in favor of a voluntary service program, not a military draft.

The draft aspect is a pretty blunt instrument. Making war is a pretty harsh thing to require of people when more war is not needed, and other objectives are (better infrastructure, more housing for the poor, etc). I'm glad your military service was helpful to you, but I'd rather see benefits made available to people who build apartment blocks, learn computer skills and tax prep and financial planning to provide the poor with support, etc. The apartments and financial services could be made available to vets as well as the children of poor families.

ETA: Regardless of the program, thanks for proposing solutions. I've volunteered at homeless shelters and for years been friends with people who volunteer regularly. Not all poverty is the individual's fault.

@JanetJackson, awesome post upthread!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 07:48:11 AM by BicycleB »

PoutineLover

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1570
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2018, 07:10:26 AM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.
I would rather this be a national volunteer force for something useful, rather than war, but the idea could be useful in a certain sense. I'm personally very opposed to countries waging war for indefinite periods against ill defined enemies in far off countries that result in thousand of innocent casualties and millions of refugees. If the force took recruits, taught them useful skills, and deployed them to provide aid or environmental help or something useful like that then it could be a positive idea.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2018, 08:15:01 AM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.
I would rather this be a national volunteer force for something useful, rather than war, but the idea could be useful in a certain sense. I'm personally very opposed to countries waging war for indefinite periods against ill defined enemies in far off countries that result in thousand of innocent casualties and millions of refugees. If the force took recruits, taught them useful skills, and deployed them to provide aid or environmental help or something useful like that then it could be a positive idea.

SPACE FORCE!

J Boogie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1531
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2018, 08:26:09 AM »
Recycling force!

I can't think of anything more useful than paying people to sort through and process discarded valuable materials (many valuables get sent to the dump because contractors make far more money building than they would doing this).

Just wood, for example.

Wood is getting really expensive. And we dump tons of it, because it's got nails, and it's not in standard dimensions.

A crew of people with proper training and safety gear pulling nails and ripping/planing it into standard dims would be awesome.

Ditto for so many things we just throw out. The problems of lurking unemployment and landfills filling up (with totally usable materials) can solve each other.

TheContinentalOp

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
  • Location: Shenadoah Valley, Virginia
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2018, 08:30:02 AM »
Quote
The solution to virtually all social problems is, say it with me lads:

Mandatory

Full

Employment

So how does that work, if you don't want a job?  Is it a crime? Do you go to jail? Are all of us FIREs and EREs going to be forced into mandatory full employment?

And what happens if you do a poor job, refuse to take orders, show up late all the time, or not at all?

dude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
Re: Article: Americans Want To Believe Jobs Are The Solution To Poverty
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2018, 08:31:20 AM »
I sometimes wonder if a mandatory national military draft would help with alleviating poverty. Getting these people from poor backgrounds mixed in with kids from middle and upper class backgrounds and uniting them for a greater cause could have huge benefits for all involved. And then giving them all a G.I. Bill they could use for college, technical or trade school training. I know the military (volunteer) was the first stepping stone to the fantastic, rich life I live now. Without it, I don't know where I would have ended up. It helped discipline my ass and lifted me from a lower middle class upbringing to an upper class professional close to retiring early. Not saying it's a perfect solution, but maybe a good first step.

I would love to hear your story in more depth and detail. Have you ever written about it on this forum?

Not really, no. Basic outline is this: dad was a menial laborer, mom a high school dropout who had me at 18 (and two other brothers subsequent); dad cheated on mom and left her for another woman when I was @12; so now single mom, no H.S. diploma, 3 kids (boys) aged 12, 10 and 7, grinds it out and makes due (with help from her rock star mom, my grandmother, a Depression-era survivor who was a legit badass); the stress of the divorce causes me to go from straight-A's to barely getting D's, and I take my first bong hit at age 12, though because of a strong mother I don't fall completely into the abyss; mom re-marries when I'm almost 16; stepdad is a union carpenter, works 6-9 months a year with the usual layoffs, and they somehow house, feed and clothe 3 kids (until they add a 4th when I turned 18), while he also provides child support for the two kids from his previous marriage; nevertheless, I continue with shitty school performance (though I excel on the gridiron) and get myself arrested three times before my 18th birthday (assault, breach of peace, petty larceny); upon graduation, I have few choices beyond manning a shovel somewhere, so I join the Navy; recruiter literally has to go to court to re-open one of my cases and get it nole-pros'ed so I can enlist. The Navy changes EVERYTHING for me. The discipline and challenge motivates me, I go on to excel in all my classes (placing first in pretty much every one) and I go on to make E-6 in 5 years. I get out shortly before the first Gulf War kicks off, attend college, earn a full ride in the Honors Program after a stellar first year (and having exhausted my money, it was a godsend I've written about elsewhere), graduate magna cum laude, and go on to attend a top-tier law school. A fine 21-year career later, I'm less than 8 months from retiring with a pension and a fat investment account.

The military more or less saved my life. It provided the direction and purpose I needed to break bad behaviors and see the possibilities life has to offer those poised to take advantage of them. And it changed my perspective on a lot of other things as well (having visited some poor areas of the world like the Philippines and Thailand, and having served with people from all socio-economic, national and racial backgrounds).

I'm not saying it would work as well for everyone, but I damn sure think it could work for many.