Author Topic: Article about the very rich buying there back time.  (Read 5032 times)

Aelias

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2019, 09:49:32 AM »
There was an interesting article in The Atlantic on the interaction of wealthy individuals with the increasingly large group of gig-based service workers who cater to them.   https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/americas-hot-new-job-being-rich-persons-servant/595774/

The thesis seems to be that technology has disaggregated what used to be one or two jobs (maid, landscaper) into a bunch of smaller tasks that are seamlessly divided up among a faceless and ever changing group of workers.  As a result, there's no longer term relationship and almost no contact between the workers and the people they serve, and as a result, the workers are more vulnerable to exploitation.  In other words, if you actually see and know the person cleaning your house and running your errands, you're more likely to care about how they're treated.

While I certainly have taken advantage of these outsourcing platforms from time to time, I do try to minimize my use.  In a related but somewhat separate point, I think doing as much of the grunt work of life as I can--cooking, cleaning, shopping, caring for my family, car maintenance, yard work--helps keep my sense of empathy properly calibrated.  If every bit of annoying work is seamlessly outsourced so I can spend more time earning money or on self-actualization, it would be entirely too easy to lose touch with how people who can't afford those luxuries actually live.  This is particularly true of the work that forces me out into the world with fellow human beings doing the same thing.  I feel like occasionally getting stuck in the store with screaming kids or arguing with the pharmacist over how much the drug costs or waiting in an interminable line at the post office makes me more understanding with other people.  I don't think it's a good use of my money to insulate myself from those occasional experiences of discomfort.  I worry that if I do that, I'll become one of those jerks who loses their cool at the slightest delay because they're used to getting everything, "Now! Now! NOW!"

So, I'm realizing as I write this, doing your own work becomes an opportunity to practice patience, empathy, and stoicism.  That is a surprisingly powerful realization.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 09:57:01 AM by Aelias »

DadJokes

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2019, 10:32:16 AM »
This feels like an article that no one needed to write.

I'm fairly certain that line describes at least 90% of the articles found on the internet.

bacchi

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2019, 10:44:10 AM »
The key is in the title of the thread.  Paying $600/mo on a $100k+ monthly income to outsource chores doesn't really impact the balance sheet much.  $250k over 15 yrs isn't much when your gross income over the same period is $20M.  That would be something like 1600hrs worth of grocery shopping avoided.  The article was about rich people buying time back, not middle Americans struggling with debt while making poor decisions and hiring poolboys.

The article is all over the place.

How does flying first class buy back time? You land at the same time as everyone else. I guess because of those 10 minutes disembarking before those in the econ seats? It's definitely a luxury upgrade but buying back time? Barely.

I'm not convinced eating out saves times either but I guess that depends on what you're cooking. Even with shopping time included, my homemade breakfast taco this morning took all of 8 minutes. Rich Person would still be driving to the restaurant.

Same with changing oil, as someone stated earlier. It takes less time to change my oil than it does to drive to the oil change place and most of my time is spent waiting for the oil to drain and I can be sitting on the porch reading while that happens.

I'll grant taking an Uber, some of the time. If I can catch a bus just as it arrives, the bus is faster. If I have to transfer or the bus is late, an Uber is much faster.


==> So are we talking about saving time or are we talking about avoiding tasks that aren't fun?


Finally, the main failure of this article is conflating earning a lot of money and wealth. The truly wealthy aren't trying to squeeze out an extra hour so that they can finish more deliverables.

BikingEngineer

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2019, 10:51:18 AM »
This article is consistent with Ramit's other writing about Money dials (https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/money-dials/). The premise is that you have 10 general areas of spending (outlined in the linked article), and you turn the volume up on areas that bring you happiness and down on areas that don't. In the OP's linked article, Ramit is talking about turning the Convenience dial way up, and taking it to a logical extreme. This assumes that the high-earner gets enjoyment from having free time, from not having to worry about day-to-day errands, or from being able to work more so as to make more money. If that person genuinely enjoys grocery shopping, cooking, gardening, etc then they would probably de-prioritize their spending on convenience and shift it over to something else. On this forum, and widely across the FIRE community, the "Freedom" dial (see my link above) would be highly prioritized. The main thing he's getting at is that you should prioritize your spending on the things that bring you happiness and fulfillment, which is not entirely out of line with MMM principles.

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2019, 12:42:13 PM »
The key is in the title of the thread.  Paying $600/mo on a $100k+ monthly income to outsource chores doesn't really impact the balance sheet much.  $250k over 15 yrs isn't much when your gross income over the same period is $20M.  That would be something like 1600hrs worth of grocery shopping avoided.  The article was about rich people buying time back, not middle Americans struggling with debt while making poor decisions and hiring poolboys.

The article is all over the place.

How does flying first class buy back time? You land at the same time as everyone else. I guess because of those 10 minutes disembarking before those in the econ seats? It's definitely a luxury upgrade but buying back time? Barely.

I'm not convinced eating out saves times either but I guess that depends on what you're cooking. Even with shopping time included, my homemade breakfast taco this morning took all of 8 minutes. Rich Person would still be driving to the restaurant.

Same with changing oil, as someone stated earlier. It takes less time to change my oil than it does to drive to the oil change place and most of my time is spent waiting for the oil to drain and I can be sitting on the porch reading while that happens.

I'll grant taking an Uber, some of the time. If I can catch a bus just as it arrives, the bus is faster. If I have to transfer or the bus is late, an Uber is much faster.


==> So are we talking about saving time or are we talking about avoiding tasks that aren't fun?


Finally, the main failure of this article is conflating earning a lot of money and wealth. The truly wealthy aren't trying to squeeze out an extra hour so that they can finish more deliverables.

When most people talk about saving "time", they're actually talking about units or motivation/energy.
It takes more time to line up and order coffee at a drive through in the morning than to make your own, but it's a far more passive process and requires no planning.

It's far, far easier to throw together a quick meal at home rather than pick up take-out, but it's only easier if you have the right foods at home and the routine down of cooking quick meals.

It's all about the level of energy/motivation it takes.
Behavioural patterns are also a lot more passive once they're established, but they take a lot of energy to establish.

I know from my experience that it's brutal to divert energy from work if I am overburdened at work, so even if I have the time, technically, I don't have the energy/motivation to actively do anything that requires effort.

For someone with plenty of energy and motivation left in their buckets, cleaning/groceries/cooking/etc all seems like a pretty easy and not particularly burdensome. For someone who is giving work everything, showering can feel daunting.

honeybbq

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2019, 12:53:51 PM »
Well, I have to say I contribute to this. Guilty.

I use Rover to watch my dogs when I travel.
2-3 times a year I get my nails manicured (usually I do it at home but once in awhile it's a nice $20 treat).
I have a local neighborhood lady clean my house once a week.
I'd love more massages but don't seem to have the time (plus very expensive for not a "family" bonus unlike a clean house and cared for pets).

I try to tip well, pay fairly, and never use people in a way that is unethical. Most of my rover people are students who just want to make a little extra money for school. I tip $5 on my $20 manicure, and my cleaning lady sets her own rates and she's also welcome to the gatorade in the pantry while she's working.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2019, 01:09:01 PM »
How does flying first class buy back time? You land at the same time as everyone else. I guess because of those 10 minutes disembarking before those in the econ seats? It's definitely a luxury upgrade but buying back time? Barely.

Depending on how long the flight is and what airline you are flying, first class could give you amenities including networking at a bar exclusively with other business class passengers and a full shower (Emirates Airbus 380), but much more common is that you are more likely to get decent sleep and better food so that you arrive at your destination with less jet lag and feeling better.  You also get access to the lounge which is nice if you are travelling with colleagues.  It can easily save a full productive day or more vs. sitting upright in economy elbow to elbow.  Even on shorter flights, business class gives you enough room to do work vs. being straight-jacketed in economy.

jj1800

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2019, 03:17:52 PM »
There was an interesting article in The Atlantic on the interaction of wealthy individuals with the increasingly large group of gig-based service workers who cater to them.   https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/americas-hot-new-job-being-rich-persons-servant/595774/

The thesis seems to be that technology has disaggregated what used to be one or two jobs (maid, landscaper) into a bunch of smaller tasks that are seamlessly divided up among a faceless and ever changing group of workers.  As a result, there's no longer term relationship and almost no contact between the workers and the people they serve, and as a result, the workers are more vulnerable to exploitation.  In other words, if you actually see and know the person cleaning your house and running your errands, you're more likely to care about how they're treated.

While I certainly have taken advantage of these outsourcing platforms from time to time, I do try to minimize my use.  In a related but somewhat separate point, I think doing as much of the grunt work of life as I can--cooking, cleaning, shopping, caring for my family, car maintenance, yard work--helps keep my sense of empathy properly calibrated.  If every bit of annoying work is seamlessly outsourced so I can spend more time earning money or on self-actualization, it would be entirely too easy to lose touch with how people who can't afford those luxuries actually live.  This is particularly true of the work that forces me out into the world with fellow human beings doing the same thing.  I feel like occasionally getting stuck in the store with screaming kids or arguing with the pharmacist over how much the drug costs or waiting in an interminable line at the post office makes me more understanding with other people.  I don't think it's a good use of my money to insulate myself from those occasional experiences of discomfort.  I worry that if I do that, I'll become one of those jerks who loses their cool at the slightest delay because they're used to getting everything, "Now! Now! NOW!"

So, I'm realizing as I write this, doing your own work becomes an opportunity to practice patience, empathy, and stoicism.  That is a surprisingly powerful realization.

You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2019, 04:13:34 PM »
The key is in the title of the thread.  Paying $600/mo on a $100k+ monthly income to outsource chores doesn't really impact the balance sheet much.  $250k over 15 yrs isn't much when your gross income over the same period is $20M.  That would be something like 1600hrs worth of grocery shopping avoided.  The article was about rich people buying time back, not middle Americans struggling with debt while making poor decisions and hiring poolboys.

The article is all over the place.

How does flying first class buy back time? You land at the same time as everyone else. I guess because of those 10 minutes disembarking before those in the econ seats? It's definitely a luxury upgrade but buying back time? Barely.

I'm not convinced eating out saves times either but I guess that depends on what you're cooking. Even with shopping time included, my homemade breakfast taco this morning took all of 8 minutes. Rich Person would still be driving to the restaurant.

Same with changing oil, as someone stated earlier. It takes less time to change my oil than it does to drive to the oil change place and most of my time is spent waiting for the oil to drain and I can be sitting on the porch reading while that happens.

I'll grant taking an Uber, some of the time. If I can catch a bus just as it arrives, the bus is faster. If I have to transfer or the bus is late, an Uber is much faster.


==> So are we talking about saving time or are we talking about avoiding tasks that aren't fun?


Finally, the main failure of this article is conflating earning a lot of money and wealth. The truly wealthy aren't trying to squeeze out an extra hour so that they can finish more deliverables.

Posts like this annoy me, because you're trying to use your individual experience to generalise others' decisions.

Your post is as tone deaf as someone saying "I make $100/hour, why can't everyone else do the same? They're so inefficient!"

For example (just to use one example): I couldn't do an oil change on my car without putting it on a jack stand, a laborious task which requires some degree of effort, care and skill. It's easier for me to go to an independent workshop, pay a reasonable price, write it off as a business expense (since I use my car for work) and move on.

Even if something (like cooking or doing the oil change) is doable in terms of time, we have limited effort and motivation, and some of us decide to spend it on other things instead.

I don't see any issue with that. Whether it's Mustachian or not depends on individual variables and the cost of an individual's time/effort.

bacchi

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2019, 07:10:13 PM »
Posts like this annoy me, because you're trying to use your individual experience to generalise others' decisions.

That's common around humans.

Quote
For example (just to use one example): I couldn't do an oil change on my car without putting it on a jack stand, a laborious task which requires some degree of effort, care and skill. It's easier for me to go to an independent workshop, pay a reasonable price, write it off as a business expense (since I use my car for work) and move on.

You can buy ramps and then it's a matter of driving it forward 5 feet and unscrewing a bolt. It's messy and a little scary the first time but it's easy and takes very little time.

Quote
Even if something (like cooking or doing the oil change) is doable in terms of time, we have limited effort and motivation, and some of us decide to spend it on other things instead.

Ah, this is better. It beats "It's faster!" or the other bs rationalizations. Own up to your outsourcing luxuries and decide if they're really worth it.

Quote
I don't see any issue with that. Whether it's Mustachian or not depends on individual variables and the cost of an individual's time/effort.

We're agreed, then.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2019, 08:12:07 PM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

bacchi

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2019, 08:56:33 PM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

Dude, relax. So you don't want to change your own oil. That's cool.

big_owl

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2019, 08:46:35 AM »
There was an interesting article in The Atlantic on the interaction of wealthy individuals with the increasingly large group of gig-based service workers who cater to them.   https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/americas-hot-new-job-being-rich-persons-servant/595774/

The thesis seems to be that technology has disaggregated what used to be one or two jobs (maid, landscaper) into a bunch of smaller tasks that are seamlessly divided up among a faceless and ever changing group of workers.  As a result, there's no longer term relationship and almost no contact between the workers and the people they serve, and as a result, the workers are more vulnerable to exploitation.  In other words, if you actually see and know the person cleaning your house and running your errands, you're more likely to care about how they're treated.

While I certainly have taken advantage of these outsourcing platforms from time to time, I do try to minimize my use.  In a related but somewhat separate point, I think doing as much of the grunt work of life as I can--cooking, cleaning, shopping, caring for my family, car maintenance, yard work--helps keep my sense of empathy properly calibrated.  If every bit of annoying work is seamlessly outsourced so I can spend more time earning money or on self-actualization, it would be entirely too easy to lose touch with how people who can't afford those luxuries actually live.  This is particularly true of the work that forces me out into the world with fellow human beings doing the same thing.  I feel like occasionally getting stuck in the store with screaming kids or arguing with the pharmacist over how much the drug costs or waiting in an interminable line at the post office makes me more understanding with other people.  I don't think it's a good use of my money to insulate myself from those occasional experiences of discomfort.  I worry that if I do that, I'll become one of those jerks who loses their cool at the slightest delay because they're used to getting everything, "Now! Now! NOW!"

So, I'm realizing as I write this, doing your own work becomes an opportunity to practice patience, empathy, and stoicism.  That is a surprisingly powerful realization.

You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

It's even worse...sometimes after docking our helper's pay for buying the wrong flavor of Grey Poupon we use that extra money to make an early mortgage payment! 

Just Joe

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2019, 09:22:12 AM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

big_owl

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2019, 09:28:28 AM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

honeybbq

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2019, 10:17:40 AM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2019, 10:42:48 AM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.


big_owl

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2019, 10:52:25 AM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

The absolute worst thing a white person (presumably male) could do with their money would be to hoard it all for themselves and become rich, amassing a small fortune and then just use that money for their own purposes so they don't have to do real work any more.  You know, like mustachians.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2019, 01:26:29 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

The absolute worst thing a white person (presumably male) could do with their money would be to hoard it all for themselves and become rich, amassing a small fortune and then just use that money for their own purposes so they don't have to do real work any more.  You know, like mustachians.

Justin at RootofGood is this to a tee if you really want to see the ugly side of FIRE in action.  People flamed him on his Reddit AMA for taking government subsidy programs (ACA/CHIP), not paying back student loans, free lunches at school, having no charitable ambitions, and generally gloating about his cheapness while not paying taxes and having a $2M net worth.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2019, 03:09:39 PM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

I actually don't think it's faster at all, at least not for everyone.  We have an oil change place literally 2 minutes from the house.  They are so fast you don't even get out of the car.  I can take a car, do the oil change, and drive home in about 15 minutes total.  And something everyone is forgetting, is that if you do your own oil change, you also need to dispose of the oil.  Which likely means going somewhere...

Per my other comments, I would argue you should probably do your own oil change to save money.  Not time.

I'd love to see all of these "busy" peoples actual daily logs.  Even people who work a lot tend to have obscene amounts of free time.  The core MMM philosophy is to just do things yourself and optimize spending.  Grocery delivery is almost certainly not MMM.  And to the poster who justified it, saying they spend 2 hours to go grocery shopping - well, MAYBE that's true, but that would be one hell of a stretch.  It doesn't take 2 hours to pop in to the grocery store on your way home from work.  So unless they live and work an hour from the nearest grocery store (I guess that's possible) - then it's just an embellished comment.  And when you have to embellish to justify the spending... well...

Really, people can spend on whatever they want.  I'm as guilty as anyone to some extent.  My point has been that I don't think it's a good idea to be selling to others, it's not all that Mustachian and this is MMM, afterall.  When MMM starts suggesting outsourcing your daily life at a substantial cost... I'll expect it to be posted April 1st.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2019, 03:14:05 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I was just having this conversation with a friend.  They have a private jet.  At first glance, that seems extraordinarily wasteful and not helping anyone in the world.  But when you start getting in to it, that single jet supports quite a few people with great paying careers.  Everything from Air Traffic Control, fuel delivery, refineries, maintenance, mechanics, the guy who waxes it, the pilot who flies it, the factory of workers who built it, all of the companies that provide parts to that factory of workers who built it, the hanger, the company that operates the fixed base and all of those jobs, etc. etc. etc.  That jet also allows him to land bigger deals and makes a big difference in their sales process, which generates jobs for his company.  The best thing people with money can do is spend it on expensive shit.  McDonalds employees make $9/hr.  Jet mechanics make $90/hr.  Expensive stuff provides for high paying jobs.  It's a great thing.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2019, 03:16:39 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

The absolute worst thing a white person (presumably male) could do with their money would be to hoard it all for themselves and become rich, amassing a small fortune and then just use that money for their own purposes so they don't have to do real work any more.  You know, like mustachians.

This is actually 100% true.  When a mustachian retires from that high paying career, it opens the door up for someone else.  Mustachians are job creators!

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2019, 03:27:03 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I was just having this conversation with a friend.  They have a private jet.  At first glance, that seems extraordinarily wasteful and not helping anyone in the world.  But when you start getting in to it, that single jet supports quite a few people with great paying careers.  Everything from Air Traffic Control, fuel delivery, refineries, maintenance, mechanics, the guy who waxes it, the pilot who flies it, the factory of workers who built it, all of the companies that provide parts to that factory of workers who built it, the hanger, the company that operates the fixed base and all of those jobs, etc. etc. etc.  That jet also allows him to land bigger deals and makes a big difference in their sales process, which generates jobs for his company.  The best thing people with money can do is spend it on expensive shit.  McDonalds employees make $9/hr.  Jet mechanics make $90/hr.  Expensive stuff provides for high paying jobs.  It's a great thing.

Yeah...I was thinking more along the lines of providing job opportunities for the marginalized and being able to afford to pay them well instead of capitalizing on their lack of opportunities and sub-livable wage standards in their industries.

I doubt that stimulating the jet mechanic job market is going to do anything to lessen the wealth inequality divide. That seems more like the wealthy moving their money around the arena of the wealthy, like dining at private clubs or buying an Hermes bag.

I was talking more about people like a high earning client who hires all domestic help exclusively through an agency that staffs only special needs people. It's very expensive and many of the staff are quite slow or need special accommodations, so the patrons are paying a premium to provide job opportunities for people who might not otherwise get the chance to work.

There's nothing inherently wrong with spending, but there's nothing inherently virtuous about it either. It's the values behind your spending decisions that matter.

big_owl

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2019, 03:45:17 PM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

I actually don't think it's faster at all, at least not for everyone.  We have an oil change place literally 2 minutes from the house.  They are so fast you don't even get out of the car.  I can take a car, do the oil change, and drive home in about 15 minutes total.  And something everyone is forgetting, is that if you do your own oil change, you also need to dispose of the oil.  Which likely means going somewhere...

Per my other comments, I would argue you should probably do your own oil change to save money.  Not time.

I'd love to see all of these "busy" peoples actual daily logs.  Even people who work a lot tend to have obscene amounts of free time.  The core MMM philosophy is to just do things yourself and optimize spending.  Grocery delivery is almost certainly not MMM.  And to the poster who justified it, saying they spend 2 hours to go grocery shopping - well, MAYBE that's true, but that would be one hell of a stretch.  It doesn't take 2 hours to pop in to the grocery store on your way home from work.  So unless they live and work an hour from the nearest grocery store (I guess that's possible) - then it's just an embellished comment.  And when you have to embellish to justify the spending... well...

Really, people can spend on whatever they want.  I'm as guilty as anyone to some extent.  My point has been that I don't think it's a good idea to be selling to others, it's not all that Mustachian and this is MMM, afterall.  When MMM starts suggesting outsourcing your daily life at a substantial cost... I'll expect it to be posted April 1st.

Lmao, I am the one who gets groceries delivered.  But I got it... I should be paying someone change my oil... That's OK in your book. Just not groceries, that's not OK though. You're funny.

honeybbq

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2019, 04:00:10 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I posted earlier about how I spend my money. I already know how *I* should do it, and I feel like I do it thoughtfully and in a way that helps the people whom I am employing. Which is exactly my point. What should someone who makes a ton of money do other than sit on it?

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2019, 04:08:48 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I posted earlier about how I spend my money. I already know how *I* should do it, and I feel like I do it thoughtfully and in a way that helps the people whom I am employing. Which is exactly my point. What should someone who makes a ton of money do other than sit on it?

I agree with you, but both you and the poster you were replying to have a point, which is why ethical spending is the solution.

jj1800

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2019, 04:35:59 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

The absolute worst thing a white person (presumably male) could do with their money would be to hoard it all for themselves and become rich, amassing a small fortune and then just use that money for their own purposes so they don't have to do real work any more.  You know, like mustachians.

Yikes that is a bad strawman argument. It honestly sounds like you don't even agree with the premise of Adeny's mindset. Mustachianism isn't about avoiding "real work anymore," it's about making sure your happiness is maximized. Happiness, not comfort, do you get extra happiness by wasting hours at work too pay for someone else to shop for you? Or does the pleasure you feel come from knowing you're rich enough to have someone else do things you view as menial while you lay back and relax? Does saving that two hours per week make it worth it that you are spending 50-70hrs per week when you could probably retire very soon?

I think the problem people are having with grocery vs oil change is that oil change requires tools, time and a place to do it. I get my oil changed for free(just buy the oil) and it would be difficult to do myself. If you said you didn't want to spend the time to get into farming, ranching, and hunting then I think most people would agree. But a grocery is already an absurd extreme of getting your oil changed. Everything is hunted or grown or slaughtered already and just ready for you to pick up and walk out with. If that is too hard for you then you are being just unreasonable, I mean how easy do you want it? Are you so important you can't stop to eat? Does one of your servants need to spoon feed you while you relax on the porch with your wife? Would that make you happier and if so why? What deep seated insecurity are you trying to address?

 And it's fine if you agree that you are being unreasonable, but please don't try to justify it as logical or mustachian.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:48:10 PM by jj1800 »

jj1800

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2019, 04:54:58 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I posted earlier about how I spend my money. I already know how *I* should do it, and I feel like I do it thoughtfully and in a way that helps the people whom I am employing. Which is exactly my point. What should someone who makes a ton of money do other than sit on it?

You must fill up a room with dollar bills and swim around like scrooge mcduck...WHEE!

DadJokes

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2019, 05:32:36 PM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I was just having this conversation with a friend.  They have a private jet.  At first glance, that seems extraordinarily wasteful and not helping anyone in the world.  But when you start getting in to it, that single jet supports quite a few people with great paying careers.  Everything from Air Traffic Control, fuel delivery, refineries, maintenance, mechanics, the guy who waxes it, the pilot who flies it, the factory of workers who built it, all of the companies that provide parts to that factory of workers who built it, the hanger, the company that operates the fixed base and all of those jobs, etc. etc. etc.  That jet also allows him to land bigger deals and makes a big difference in their sales process, which generates jobs for his company.  The best thing people with money can do is spend it on expensive shit.  McDonalds employees make $9/hr.  Jet mechanics make $90/hr.  Expensive stuff provides for high paying jobs.  It's a great thing.

Yeah...I was thinking more along the lines of providing job opportunities for the marginalized and being able to afford to pay them well instead of capitalizing on their lack of opportunities and sub-livable wage standards in their industries.

I doubt that stimulating the jet mechanic job market is going to do anything to lessen the wealth inequality divide. That seems more like the wealthy moving their money around the arena of the wealthy, like dining at private clubs or buying an Hermes bag.

I was talking more about people like a high earning client who hires all domestic help exclusively through an agency that staffs only special needs people. It's very expensive and many of the staff are quite slow or need special accommodations, so the patrons are paying a premium to provide job opportunities for people who might not otherwise get the chance to work.

There's nothing inherently wrong with spending, but there's nothing inherently virtuous about it either. It's the values behind your spending decisions that matter.

You seem to have strong opinions about how other people should spend their money.

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2019, 05:41:01 PM »

You seem to have strong opinions about how other people should spend their money.

Nope.
I have strong opinion about ways in which people spend money that I find admirable. I specifically indicated that there is nothing wrong with spending or not spending in a way that is inconsistent with that.

I was clarifying that the private jet example is not at all like what I was talking about in my previous post.

My whole point was that there is no inherent virtue in not spending money on services.

Aelias

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2019, 05:43:34 AM »
I think a lot of this job-creating rationalization (particularly the private jet example) is another flavor of the “But what if everyone was frugal? Our economy would collapse!” argument: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/

By that logic, all consumption, no matter how ridiculous is justifiable because up and down the supply chain people have jobs and make money.  And I don’t think flying around doing new business deals is inherently making the world a better and more prosperous place—that truly depends on what line of business your friend is in.

I think it’s also worth calling the point above of comfort versus happiness.  There are lots of things that would make life more comfortable and convenient, but it’s worth asking whether individual comfort and convenience is a worthy goal. Is that really the best use of one’s money? What do you lose when you use your money to surround yourself in ease?  I would argue that you get out of practice of doing things for yourself, losing patience and skills, and become increasingly intolerant of minor inconveniences, which no one will ever be able to rid themselves of entirely. 
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

I don’t expect everyone to share these values (free country and all) and truly rare is the person who is able to live in accordance with their values 100% of the time.  But, for me, one of the powerful insights of MMM is that insourcing to the greatest extent possible not only saves cash but helps you develop a wide array of skills and the wherewithal to resist the lure of consumerism.  Outsourcing— whether it’s grocery shopping or oil changes or what have you—takes a little bit of that away.  While understanding that almost everyone makes compromises to make their life work, I don’t see this kind of outsourcing as something to be rationalized away, much less celebrated.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2019, 07:34:25 AM »


You make a great point and to try to defend this article means someone is definitely are not a core MM person. If you make 750K/year, are white, and born in America(the best nation in the world to be rich due to the income gap) it takes a lot of hubris to justify spending hundreds or thousands a month to have what are essentially servants, do your errands for you. There's literally thousands of people who will die TODAY because they didn't win the lottery and were born in a poor area of the USA or the world. If you want to treat yourself and understand that you are using luxury that many would literally die to have, like having fresh groceries brought into your home and put away, than great. I don't think the morality of is being considered enough. Are these "helpers", aka servants, getting health benefits? 401Ks? How is a financial guru who teaches people to be healthy, telling people to go take advantage of other people's economic situation to make their life easier?

Also the article is very poorly written with no evidence to back the very questionable claims he's making.

What should a white American making 750k/year do with their money? Give it all away?

If by "give it away" you mean opt to pay a living wage to service people instead of taking advantage of systems that promote and sustain wealth inequality...then yeah, that's an option.

Some of us do this directly by paying (or tipping) very well for services, some of us do this by choosing more ethical options for clothing/food/etc, some of us do this by refusing to shop at companies that suppress unionizing or are notorious for the ill treatment of their staff, some of us do this by implementing affirmative action and particularly hiring people with special needs who may need costly accommodation to complete the task like more time or special tools, etc, etc.

Yes, it's absolutely a valid option to "give away" more of your income for the sake of your ethics and values to try and not contribute so much to the problem of wealth inequality when you are the one benefitting from it.

It's not an absurd concept.

Personally, I have far more admiration for the person who makes 750K and spends it in ethical and productive ways that improve society, even just a little bit, over the ultra-frugal 750K earner who changes their own oil and hoards their cash in a giant investment account. The latter is a valid life choice, just not one that I personally respect as much.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with spending money, but the more someone has, the less excuse there is for spending it unethically just for the sake of a bargain at a marginalized person's expense.

I was just having this conversation with a friend.  They have a private jet.  At first glance, that seems extraordinarily wasteful and not helping anyone in the world.  But when you start getting in to it, that single jet supports quite a few people with great paying careers.  Everything from Air Traffic Control, fuel delivery, refineries, maintenance, mechanics, the guy who waxes it, the pilot who flies it, the factory of workers who built it, all of the companies that provide parts to that factory of workers who built it, the hanger, the company that operates the fixed base and all of those jobs, etc. etc. etc.  That jet also allows him to land bigger deals and makes a big difference in their sales process, which generates jobs for his company.  The best thing people with money can do is spend it on expensive shit.  McDonalds employees make $9/hr.  Jet mechanics make $90/hr.  Expensive stuff provides for high paying jobs.  It's a great thing.

Yeah...I was thinking more along the lines of providing job opportunities for the marginalized and being able to afford to pay them well instead of capitalizing on their lack of opportunities and sub-livable wage standards in their industries.

I doubt that stimulating the jet mechanic job market is going to do anything to lessen the wealth inequality divide. That seems more like the wealthy moving their money around the arena of the wealthy, like dining at private clubs or buying an Hermes bag.

I was talking more about people like a high earning client who hires all domestic help exclusively through an agency that staffs only special needs people. It's very expensive and many of the staff are quite slow or need special accommodations, so the patrons are paying a premium to provide job opportunities for people who might not otherwise get the chance to work.

There's nothing inherently wrong with spending, but there's nothing inherently virtuous about it either. It's the values behind your spending decisions that matter.

Your comment makes no sense at all.  You think millionaires are the ones working at private clubs?  You think the linemen at the airport are billionaires?

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2019, 07:41:28 AM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

I actually don't think it's faster at all, at least not for everyone.  We have an oil change place literally 2 minutes from the house.  They are so fast you don't even get out of the car.  I can take a car, do the oil change, and drive home in about 15 minutes total.  And something everyone is forgetting, is that if you do your own oil change, you also need to dispose of the oil.  Which likely means going somewhere...

Per my other comments, I would argue you should probably do your own oil change to save money.  Not time.

I'd love to see all of these "busy" peoples actual daily logs.  Even people who work a lot tend to have obscene amounts of free time.  The core MMM philosophy is to just do things yourself and optimize spending.  Grocery delivery is almost certainly not MMM.  And to the poster who justified it, saying they spend 2 hours to go grocery shopping - well, MAYBE that's true, but that would be one hell of a stretch.  It doesn't take 2 hours to pop in to the grocery store on your way home from work.  So unless they live and work an hour from the nearest grocery store (I guess that's possible) - then it's just an embellished comment.  And when you have to embellish to justify the spending... well...

Really, people can spend on whatever they want.  I'm as guilty as anyone to some extent.  My point has been that I don't think it's a good idea to be selling to others, it's not all that Mustachian and this is MMM, afterall.  When MMM starts suggesting outsourcing your daily life at a substantial cost... I'll expect it to be posted April 1st.

Lmao, I am the one who gets groceries delivered.  But I got it... I should be paying someone change my oil... That's OK in your book. Just not groceries, that's not OK though. You're funny.

Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

big_owl

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2019, 09:16:16 AM »
Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

I gotta admit, this thread has been rather entertaining reading how people justify their own questionable money habits while chastising others on their use of money.  Heck I have somebody lecturing me on how I should feel about paying somebody to get my groceries for me while at the same time they have their own oil changed by somebody else because it's "difficult" and takes "time"....and they don't even pay the other person to do it for them!  Classic!  At least I'm paying for my laziness.  And how does you not being proud of your poor habits make them somehow any better than mine?  At least I own mine.

This interchange caused me to think of something though.  Let's consider Amazon Prime - which I know several of the sanctimonious posters in this thread use.  How is me "ordering" groceries from my helper any different than ordering groceries from Amazon, or frankly buying anything else from Amazon that could theoretically be bought locally?  You're doing the same thing - paying for the convenience of having it delivered.  At the same time you're supporting low wage warehouse labor not local to your economy (glassdoor says $14/hr for the average amazon warehouse worker).  Hell, I pay double that to somebody locally just to go out and get my groceries once a week!  Even better she does her grocery shopping at the same time so she's effectively getting paid to shop for her own groceries! 

Nobody is saying it's not cheaper to buy your own groceries.  The joy in being rich (and has been true all through history) is that you don't have to worry about money so much for life's conveniences, which is the whole point of the article.  We only fly first class, I know it's a waste of money and it's not any faster, but flying is 5x better in first class.  There have been numerous threads over the years on here with dozens of members on this site having housecleaners, they're doing the same thing.  That's even more frivolous I say because you don't even have to leave your house to do that yourself.

HBFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2019, 09:27:55 AM »
A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)

I think the site is dedicated to mindless consumption and being more acutely aware of what you truly value on a deep level, particularly when you are still in the asset building phase.  For those who have substantial assets and are "buying their time back" purposefully for quality of life reasons, I don't think it applies.  In the end, money should be spent on things you truly value.  Time certainly qualifies high on this list.  I consider it one of the three pillars of happiness.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 09:30:55 AM by HBFIRE »

Malkynn

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2019, 10:50:19 AM »
Your comment makes no sense at all.  You think millionaires are the ones working at private clubs?  You think the linemen at the airport are billionaires?

Absolutely not, I never said that. I was indicating that it contributes to and sustains the system of wealth inequality, not that every single job created is going to create a wealthy person. That would be nonsense. I was never saying that spending on a jet doesn't create jobs. I was simply clarifying that the private jet example was fundamentally different from the point I was trying to make, which was that outsourcing can be done in a way that doesn't promote wealth inequality.

As for private clubs, the one I frequent definitely doesn't staff anyone who could even remotely appear marginalized, and even if they are, they absolutely have the capacity to "pass" as fitting in within the sphere of the wealthy: well manicured, they speak the "right" way, excellent posture, appear healthy, no visibly missing or rotten teeth, and if they are marginalized, there's no way for me to find out as they're trained not to talk to me too much.

Note there that I just admitted that I frequent a private club and I absolutely benefit from the fact that it helps keep the wealth among the wealthy. The whole reason I'm there is to stick my nose into business that people outside the club don't have access to.

I happen to be rather uncomfortable with a lot of the moralizing around spending. I have my personal values and ethics, but that should not be mistaken for some universal stance on the morality of the spending, especially of others. I'm fairly certain I already said that...
I find it fascinating that people tend to be particularly sanctimonious about outsourcing domestic labour, but no one seems to flinch at buying peeled shrimp. Whatever. People are weird and no one has made a Netflix documentary yet about peeled shrimp, so there's that.

jj1800

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2019, 11:10:40 AM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

I actually don't think it's faster at all, at least not for everyone.  We have an oil change place literally 2 minutes from the house.  They are so fast you don't even get out of the car.  I can take a car, do the oil change, and drive home in about 15 minutes total.  And something everyone is forgetting, is that if you do your own oil change, you also need to dispose of the oil.  Which likely means going somewhere...

Per my other comments, I would argue you should probably do your own oil change to save money.  Not time.

I'd love to see all of these "busy" peoples actual daily logs.  Even people who work a lot tend to have obscene amounts of free time.  The core MMM philosophy is to just do things yourself and optimize spending.  Grocery delivery is almost certainly not MMM.  And to the poster who justified it, saying they spend 2 hours to go grocery shopping - well, MAYBE that's true, but that would be one hell of a stretch.  It doesn't take 2 hours to pop in to the grocery store on your way home from work.  So unless they live and work an hour from the nearest grocery store (I guess that's possible) - then it's just an embellished comment.  And when you have to embellish to justify the spending... well...

Really, people can spend on whatever they want.  I'm as guilty as anyone to some extent.  My point has been that I don't think it's a good idea to be selling to others, it's not all that Mustachian and this is MMM, afterall.  When MMM starts suggesting outsourcing your daily life at a substantial cost... I'll expect it to be posted April 1st.

Lmao, I am the one who gets groceries delivered.  But I got it... I should be paying someone change my oil... That's OK in your book. Just not groceries, that's not OK though. You're funny.

Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

This. This is a site dedicated to financial freedom through frugality, and you're trying to justify a massive expense that's absolutely un-necessary. I'm more suspicious about the motive behind it. I've actually been the worker(had a small craigslist "Yardwork/moving" ad business before). The people that are the worst to work for are the ones who are hiring you to do "shit [you] don't like to do." It's just a very egotistical and entitled mindset to have about someone treating you like you are an envolent.

Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

I gotta admit, this thread has been rather entertaining reading how people justify their own questionable money habits while chastising others on their use of money.  Heck I have somebody lecturing me on how I should feel about paying somebody to get my groceries for me while at the same time they have their own oil changed by somebody else because it's "difficult" and takes "time"....and they don't even pay the other person to do it for them!  Classic!  At least I'm paying for my laziness.  And how does you not being proud of your poor habits make them somehow any better than mine?  At least I own mine.

This interchange caused me to think of something though.  Let's consider Amazon Prime - which I know several of the sanctimonious posters in this thread use.  How is me "ordering" groceries from my helper any different than ordering groceries from Amazon, or frankly buying anything else from Amazon that could theoretically be bought locally?  You're doing the same thing - paying for the convenience of having it delivered.  At the same time you're supporting low wage warehouse labor not local to your economy (glassdoor says $14/hr for the average amazon warehouse worker).  Hell, I pay double that to somebody locally just to go out and get my groceries once a week!  Even better she does her grocery shopping at the same time so she's effectively getting paid to shop for her own groceries! 

Nobody is saying it's not cheaper to buy your own groceries.  The joy in being rich (and has been true all through history) is that you don't have to worry about money so much for life's conveniences, which is the whole point of the article.  We only fly first class, I know it's a waste of money and it's not any faster, but flying is 5x better in first class.  There have been numerous threads over the years on here with dozens of members on this site having housecleaners, they're doing the same thing.  That's even more frivolous I say because you don't even have to leave your house to do that yourself.

I think you're really missing the point. I have someone change my oil because it is "difficult", I.E it would cost hundreds of dollars to get a jack, tools, and oil pan(which I would not use more than 2x/year) and I don't even have a level surface at my apt complex. If I were capable of doing it and still had someone else do it, I would be abashed that I had, not proud of it. What is your justification? You don't feel like it? That's just called laziness. And if you are fine with laziness in this part of your life, than great! Everyone is lazy in some ways, just don't pretend it's anything else.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:33:49 AM by jj1800 »

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2019, 12:10:12 PM »
Not everyone wants to buy a ramp, an oil filter, engine oil, Allen wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pain, and towels, and then subject themselves to working underneath a 1.3 tonne car.

It's not as simple as "unscrewing a bolt".

It really is almost that simple. A bolt and a filter, pour in new oil.

The supplies you listed can last you a lifetime though aside from the cleanup towels.

Its okay if you don't want to do your own oil changes.

I'm definitely in the "do it yourself" oil change camp.  It's for sure faster to just do it myself, though I never fail to spill some oil on the driveway at some point so it is a lot more messy.

The difference for oil changes is that even if I pay to have someone do them I still have to drive to the oil change place and sit there and wait for them so I'm not really saving any time.  Now if they came to your house and did them for you or else picked up/dropped off your car for you...then I might change my tune.

I actually don't think it's faster at all, at least not for everyone.  We have an oil change place literally 2 minutes from the house.  They are so fast you don't even get out of the car.  I can take a car, do the oil change, and drive home in about 15 minutes total.  And something everyone is forgetting, is that if you do your own oil change, you also need to dispose of the oil.  Which likely means going somewhere...

Per my other comments, I would argue you should probably do your own oil change to save money.  Not time.

I'd love to see all of these "busy" peoples actual daily logs.  Even people who work a lot tend to have obscene amounts of free time.  The core MMM philosophy is to just do things yourself and optimize spending.  Grocery delivery is almost certainly not MMM.  And to the poster who justified it, saying they spend 2 hours to go grocery shopping - well, MAYBE that's true, but that would be one hell of a stretch.  It doesn't take 2 hours to pop in to the grocery store on your way home from work.  So unless they live and work an hour from the nearest grocery store (I guess that's possible) - then it's just an embellished comment.  And when you have to embellish to justify the spending... well...

Really, people can spend on whatever they want.  I'm as guilty as anyone to some extent.  My point has been that I don't think it's a good idea to be selling to others, it's not all that Mustachian and this is MMM, afterall.  When MMM starts suggesting outsourcing your daily life at a substantial cost... I'll expect it to be posted April 1st.

Lmao, I am the one who gets groceries delivered.  But I got it... I should be paying someone change my oil... That's OK in your book. Just not groceries, that's not OK though. You're funny.

Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

This. This is a site dedicated to financial freedom through frugality, and you're trying to justify a massive expense that's absolutely un-necessary. I'm more suspicious about the motive behind it. I've actually been the worker(had a small craigslist "Yardwork/moving" ad business before). The people that are the worst to work for are the ones who are hiring you to do "shit [you] don't like to do." It's just a very egotistical and entitled mindset to have about someone treating you like you are an envolent.

Changing oil and grocery shopping are quite a bit different.  And $50/week vs $50/year is not to be ignored.  And again, my point was that you appear to be highly embellishing your justification for hiring someone to buy your groceries for you.  Which suggests you kind of know it's a frivolous spend.  Honestly, go for it!  I don't care if you are flat broke or rich as hell.  I'm just enjoying the discussion and your justification for spending $2600/year, or about $50,000 over a 10 year period, to have someone grocery shop for you is an interesting topic considering we are on the MMM forum.  A site that seems dedicated to face punching such activity :)  But seriously, I admit I'm about as guilty as anyone, I'm just not proud of it!

I gotta admit, this thread has been rather entertaining reading how people justify their own questionable money habits while chastising others on their use of money.  Heck I have somebody lecturing me on how I should feel about paying somebody to get my groceries for me while at the same time they have their own oil changed by somebody else because it's "difficult" and takes "time"....and they don't even pay the other person to do it for them!  Classic!  At least I'm paying for my laziness.  And how does you not being proud of your poor habits make them somehow any better than mine?  At least I own mine.

This interchange caused me to think of something though.  Let's consider Amazon Prime - which I know several of the sanctimonious posters in this thread use.  How is me "ordering" groceries from my helper any different than ordering groceries from Amazon, or frankly buying anything else from Amazon that could theoretically be bought locally?  You're doing the same thing - paying for the convenience of having it delivered.  At the same time you're supporting low wage warehouse labor not local to your economy (glassdoor says $14/hr for the average amazon warehouse worker).  Hell, I pay double that to somebody locally just to go out and get my groceries once a week!  Even better she does her grocery shopping at the same time so she's effectively getting paid to shop for her own groceries! 

Nobody is saying it's not cheaper to buy your own groceries.  The joy in being rich (and has been true all through history) is that you don't have to worry about money so much for life's conveniences, which is the whole point of the article.  We only fly first class, I know it's a waste of money and it's not any faster, but flying is 5x better in first class.  There have been numerous threads over the years on here with dozens of members on this site having housecleaners, they're doing the same thing.  That's even more frivolous I say because you don't even have to leave your house to do that yourself.

I think you're really missing the point. I have someone change my oil because it is "difficult", I.E it would cost hundreds of dollars to get a jack, tools, and oil pan(which I would not use more than 2x/year) and I don't even have a level surface at my apt complex. If I were capable of doing it and still had someone else do it, I would be abashed that I had, not proud of it. What is your justification? You don't feel like it? That's just called laziness. And if you are fine with laziness in this part of your life, than great! Everyone is lazy in some ways, just don't pretend it's anything else.

I kind of give up trying to get the point across.  Clearly you get it, though :)

scottish

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2019, 07:55:28 PM »
I've been listening to Ramit's audiobook during my commute.    He definitely has a different outlook about wealth.   Based on what I've heard so far, Ramit isn't terribly worried about financial independence - he's more concerned with not spending your money on things that provide no value to you.   In the current chapter he's explaining how you can use credit to your advantage.   For example, if you work to maintain an excellent credit rating, you can negotiate less expensive rates on car loans and mortgages.      He doesn't assume that you want to be financially independent and free of work as soon as possible, he just thinks that you shouldn't spend your money unnecessarily.   

If you want a fancy clown car, Ramit is fine with that, as long as you buy it with reasonable terms.    If you don't want to change your oil, he's ok with that as well, as long as you don't go to a dealer who will make up a list of things that aren't broken that you should fix.  Here on MMM, we would say "Don't buy the clown car at all.   <face-punch> for borrowing money to buy a depreciating asset".

Before I started reading this blog, my approach was much more like Ramit's.    When I finished university, I stopped working on my own car - because I dislike working on my car, it's a big annoying chore for me - and I could afford to pay someone else to do it.    I even bought a new car, I was tired of having my old beater constantly in need of repairs.    I remember thinking, "Boy a new car every 6 years is awfully expensive.   Between the 2 of us (i.e. a new car every 3 years) it'll be hard to save much money.   But that's just what professional engineers do."

I became much more interested in financial independence about 10 years ago when I was sick for the better part of 2 years.   I wanted the ability to both 1)  be able to pay for my own meds instead of relying on the benefits at work and 2) be able to walk away from my job if it became too annoying.

I think both points of view are perfectly valid.    You can be happy spending money on clown cars and other unnecessary luxuries and still be astute and buy them efficiently.   It's not the outlook expressed here, but that doesn't mean it's ethically wrong - it just means you're in the wrong place to discuss it.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Article about the very rich buying there back time.
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2019, 09:12:51 PM »
@scottish Sadly, as debt becomes increasingly cheap, it might make sense to leverage your earning power (if you can make more money paying for an oil change and increasing your working income, or make working OMY more palatable, or establish a side hustle while having reliable income). 

Changing oil is a metaphor for doing a repetitive task than anyone could do that takes time and life energy.  You can do it for the rest of your life in order to save money and ER if it is a good trade-off, or you can make OMY extra salary to never have to do it again (even at 60 and 70).