Author Topic: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?  (Read 24589 times)

Fru-Gal

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2022, 12:08:21 PM »
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It's helpful that, if you read the angriest people in their own words, the people they blame are identified much more by their own political beliefs than by skin color/religion/etc which would be harder to code switch.

I had a thought a few years ago that by participating in social media debates I am voluntarily compiling a dossier of my political beliefs online. (Not that it stopped me much.)

Politicians learned to use social media to become entertaining celebrities. We used to lament the lack of political engagement. I say go back to making politics boring again. It used to be something you didn't bring up in polite company; now we all know families and friendships ruined by it. For what motive? Profit and power -- but really, profit.

A propos of the low-info diet, here is something great that came up in the other thread about long-time FIRE:

https://retireearlylifestyle.com/were_still_here.htm

An excerpt:

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We’re still here!

Since retiring in 1991, LOTS of things have changed. Remember cassette recorders, walkmans and 35 mm cameras?

Way back then, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 3168 topping 3000 for the first time, there was Desert Storm, and fires in the hills of Oakland, California which burned thousands of homes. Canada introduced the Canadian Goods and Services Tax (GST) a national sales tax. The Internet was made available for unrestricted commercial use and the number of computers on the net reached 1 million. Microsoft Released MS Dos 5.0.

We left the working world and flew to the island of Nevis, West Indies. We lived here for six months in a house with a view of 3 islands from the front porch and a volcano from the back. We did scuba diving, sailing, ate fresh lobster caught moments before and kicked off our retirement adventures.

We received lodging and board in exchange for helping the Captain entertain the passengers

Then we caught a ride on this 256 foot sailing ship and headed further south to Venzuela. We spent a month on Isla de Margarita, beaching, dancing the merengue, and enjoying the local cuisine.

1993 - Islamic Fundamentalists bombed the World Trade Center, and Federal Agents raided religious cult Waco, Texas. Harley Davidson Motorcycles celebrated their 90th birthday.
    

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2022, 12:14:15 PM »

Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism.


Interesting analysis. I disagree in general, but interesting nonetheless.


As someone on the right (albeit more libertarian and far less enamored of the Republican party, et al) I see far more individualism on the right and collectivism on the left. Organization occurs across the political spectrum and in general has gotten much harder over the years as there is less cultural and societal cohesiveness (see the 2000 book: Bowling Alone). A lot of people will complain on the internet but actually getting hundreds or thousands of people to show up in person or dedicate real time to an organization is very difficult. It doesn't matter if that organization is trying to advocate for or against a left-wing or right-wing issue. Civic engagement in general is far less than it was in decades past.

As someone who no longer respects either party in the USA I think that the left was about individualism during say The Enlightenment. It was all about how you could disagree and have the free exchange of ideas. Now (in the USA) it appears to be about wokeism. Which yea, seems pretty collective today.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2022, 12:50:33 PM »
As someone who no longer respects either party in the USA I think that the left was about individualism during say The Enlightenment. It was all about how you could disagree and have the free exchange of ideas. Now (in the USA) it appears to be about wokeism. Which yea, seems pretty collective today.

I've seen this described elsewhere as the distinction between "liberals" and "leftists". Although I'm pretty sure that's vocabulary use that marks one as a liberal and not a leftist. It's weird that several years into the big political realignment, I'm not sure what word/terminology the non-liberal people on the left wing in the USA would use to describe themselves.

I would happily vote for, donate to, and stand up and be counted (risks to safety and well being of doing that in our present culture included) for a political party focused on protecting and applying liberal ideas of the enlightenment to government and social change.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2022, 12:55:42 PM »

Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism.


Interesting analysis. I disagree in general, but interesting nonetheless.


As someone on the right (albeit more libertarian and far less enamored of the Republican party, et al) I see far more individualism on the right and collectivism on the left. Organization occurs across the political spectrum and in general has gotten much harder over the years as there is less cultural and societal cohesiveness (see the 2000 book: Bowling Alone). A lot of people will complain on the internet but actually getting hundreds or thousands of people to show up in person or dedicate real time to an organization is very difficult. It doesn't matter if that organization is trying to advocate for or against a left-wing or right-wing issue. Civic engagement in general is far less than it was in decades past.

As someone who no longer respects either party in the USA I think that the left was about individualism during say The Enlightenment. It was all about how you could disagree and have the free exchange of ideas. Now (in the USA) it appears to be about wokeism. Which yea, seems pretty collective today.

We have to be careful to watch what people are actually doing rather than what people are saying on the internet. 1,000,000 memes plus 500k clicks of the "like" button matter less than one real world group of a dozen people physically meeting every weekend and planning activities to further their civic agenda. Some people may disagree, and my response is that your Facebook petitions don't actually go anywhere either. Political power is for those who show up, cooperate, and organize IRL. If skeptical, find me an exception to this rule (something bigger than the latest media frenzy that won't result in anything).

In reality, anti-abortion protesters take shifts to show up to the clinic every single day and have formed a little community around this activity, and the pro-choice side musters a relatively small annual event where almost everyone there is a stranger to each other. People who like guns have shooting clubs, ranges, hunting clubs, gun shows, and entire industries/professions - the gun control movement meanwhile is kind of a mail-us-your-money lobbyist operation. IRL, right-wing milita are training in every state every weekend, but there is no such thing as a formal antifa meetup with more than a handful of friends present, nor is there an "antifa" organization to join. It's nothing more than a hashtag. The truth is, you'd be hard pressed to find - even in cities - a cohesive community of left-wingers that has been around 10+ years coordinating their activities at the same level of organization as a single right-wing church, of which there are tens of thousands. Such a creature may exist somewhere, but even if you did find it you'd have to pass dozens of pro-Trump, anti-BLM, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-tax, anti-science evangelical churches to get there.

BTW, Bowling Alone was a great book. I don't know how the author didn't assign more causation to the rise of electronic media, and our behavior of spending more and more time over the decades staring at screens, even up to 1999. That time came from somewhere. It came out of the time people used to spend building communities. FWIW, my conservative friends are constantly talking about things they did while my liberal friends are constantly talking about things they watched.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2022, 01:01:26 PM »
We have to be careful to watch what people are actually doing rather than what people are saying on the internet. 1,000,000 memes plus 500k clicks of the "like" button matter less than one real world group of a dozen people physically meeting every weekend and planning activities to further their civic agenda. Some people may disagree, and my response is that your Facebook petitions don't actually go anywhere either. Political power is for those who show up, cooperate, and organize IRL. If skeptical, find me an exception to this rule (something bigger than the latest media frenzy that won't result in anything).

In reality, anti-abortion protesters take shifts to show up to the clinic every single day and have formed a little community around this activity, and the pro-choice side musters a relatively small annual event where almost everyone there is a stranger to each other. People who like guns have shooting clubs, ranges, hunting clubs, gun shows, and entire industries/professions - the gun control movement meanwhile is kind of a mail-us-your-money lobbyist operation. IRL, right-wing milita are training in every state every weekend, but there is no such thing as a formal antifa meetup with more than a handful of friends present, nor is there an "antifa" organization to join. It's nothing more than a hashtag. The truth is, you'd be hard pressed to find - even in cities - a cohesive community of left-wingers that has been around 10+ years coordinating their activities at the same level of organization as a single right-wing church, of which there are tens of thousands. Such a creature may exist somewhere, but even if you did find it you'd have to pass dozens of pro-Trump, anti-BLM, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-tax, anti-science evangelical churches to get there.

I simultaneously agree and disagree with you. Those 1M strong posts/petitions matter when they change corporate budgets, PAC contributions, tenure offers to professors, etc. They also matter when they are alienating liberal voters from their own party.

But yea, I live in Little Beirut and I haven't seen a ton of long lived grass roots movements. But there are some specifically around cycling and walk-ability infrastructure. But not enough people showing up to rival the pro-life crowd.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2022, 01:04:39 PM »
I'm perfectly safe because to get into my community you need a clicker for the arm to go up, or you have to be let in by the guy in the booth. Also, I have like 20 cans of soup in the cupboard.

Wow. You are indeed safe!

You can also buy my prepper kits. It's a helluvah deal. For $199 you'll get the kit plus I'll throw in a free pamphlet about gated communities with gates you need a clicker for, and cans of soup. That pamphlet is a $40 value, so it's really costing me money, but in these trying times, we need to realize that our money is going to be worthless and the best thing we can do is help one another.

If you buy 2, I'll throw in a 3rd pamphlet.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 01:08:23 PM by Chris Pascale »

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2022, 02:21:54 PM »
Interesting analysis. I disagree in general, but interesting nonetheless.


As someone on the right (albeit more libertarian and far less enamored of the Republican party, et al) I see far more individualism on the right and collectivism on the left.

To expand on what ChpBstrd said, the left's collectivism is in how they see society organized, not in how it organizes itself. The right, on the other hand, rejects collectivism for the wider society, but fully embraces collectivism in the way it operates. It's collectivism within a gated community, if you wish. Collectivism for the in-group.

The left has bouts of high-energy activity - think Women's March or BLM protests - but it sucks at staying organized. And the embrace of the leaderless way to operate movements is f-ing self-defeating.

FINate

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2022, 03:02:58 PM »
I'm less dismissive about the prospects of civil war than some here. Not that I want it, far from it, in recent years a deepening of my faith as led me to become something of a pacifist. Nor do I think it likely, but...

The stereotype of red state conservatives as fat, old, dumb, and lazy is just way off target. I'm more of an old school liberal/libertarian, but I live in a red state and I see hard core conservatives all around. Yes, there are those who fit this stereotype, but that's true of both sides. And the dumbest are usually the loudest. To the contrary, there are a lot of young, energetic conservative people. Intelligent even if lacking credentials. Very many are extremely fit and think nothing of hiking around with heavy loads in wilderness and living in freezing temperatures during hunting season. Proficient with firearms, and many current or ex-military. Thankfully, most are not hell-bent on insurrection.

But civil war in the modern US would not be a conventional war with opposing sides facing off in the field with large numbers of troops. It would be a dirty war, where the front line is nowhere and everywhere. Assassinations. Hitting soft targets. Strategic skirmishes. Attacks on supply chains and infrastructure. You know, like pretty much every conflict over the past 5 decades. In this type of war you don't need a lot of armed participants, a relative few with support from those sympathetic to the cause would be sufficient.

Again, it's unlikely, but then again, black swans and all that.

Reynold

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2022, 03:28:28 PM »
I do agree with posters who say that the Left will not show up for a fight. And even if some do, all previous attempts (think Portland Courthouse) have been pathetic. Right-wingers were able to drive from suburbs right into the heart of the bluest cities and harass people there with impunity. Authoritarian takeover - yes. Mob violence with law enforcement looking the other way - yes. Civil war - no.

Pathetic?  Would that be the opinion of the owners of the cars and businesses that were destroyed and/or looted?  Or the police inside the precinct building when attempts were made to seal it shut with quick drying concrete with people inside before setting it on fire? 

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-spokesperson-accuses-rioters-of-attempted-murder-for-trying-to-barricade-officers

True, the mobs did fail to burn down the Portland Courthouse, but it was not for lack of repeated attempts on multiple nights. 


ysette9

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Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2022, 03:29:17 PM »
I suspect we are busy thinking of civil war-type insurrections and other violence like the 6 Jan attack on the capital when I think that is probably one of the least likely scenarios. The bigger threat in my mind is the creeping anti-democratic actions that have been going on steadily for a while. Court packing with conservative justices that are out of step with the majority of the public’s views. Politicizing non-partisan offices like those related to elections at the state level to make it less likely that the strained threads of democracy would survive another 2020 election. The fact that the senate is further and further apart from representing the actual demographics of the country. The fact that gerrymandering and electoral votes mean that urban and non-conservative votes count for less than rural and conservative votes. The systematic disenfranchisement of minorities. All of this bureaucratic momentum builds and builds until the system looks democratic still but fundamentally isn’t open or fair.

The biggest problem with that, aside from the fact that fell each has withered, is that there is no big flash bang event to rally people around. Creeping change is more easily accepted. And where does that leave us?

I hate thinking alarmist and I agree that most of the time the low info diet is the way to go. There is the small voice in the back of my head that warns me to not bury my head in the sand and be the last person dancing on the titanic and missing my chance at a life boat. I don’t know how to square those two. How do I not drive myself nuts about something I cannot control while also not ignoring obvious signs?

Or do I instead draw internal lines and just say that I am not willing to raise my kids in an environment where X or Y is the reality? I’ve said to myself before that autonomy/human rights/freedom of choice as a woman with daughters is one of my hard lines. It seems like the right extremists are trying hard to test me on that particular line in the sand. Are we okay here? Do I just forbid them from ever traveling to a place like Texas? I dunno….
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 03:31:25 PM by ysette9 »

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2022, 04:07:39 PM »
Or do I instead draw internal lines and just say that I am not willing to raise my kids in an environment where X or Y is the reality? I’ve said to myself before that autonomy/human rights/freedom of choice as a woman with daughters is one of my hard lines. It seems like the right extremists are trying hard to test me on that particular line in the sand. Are we okay here? Do I just forbid them from ever traveling to a place like Texas? I dunno….

I think the advantage of drawing an internal line is that it makes it easier to get back to a low information diet. You don't have to think as much about each development or seek out a lot of news/commentary, just a mental check against "is this the line in the sand I drew earlier?". For any mental line in the sand I come up with it would be very VERY hard to miss the news if/when it were crossed. For example, if the supreme court overturned Row v Wade, I don't think a person would have to be actively following the news to hear about it.

And like an investor policy statement, it's helpful to do it in advance, because in the moment any sudden change for the worse is going to be heated and panicky and any gradual erosion of features of society that you find important is going to sneak up on a person.

One of the things that always strikes me reading about various historical events is how few people did choose to actually pick up and move, even when (with the benefit of hindsight) the writing was already on the wall.

ysette9

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2022, 04:34:59 PM »


One of the things that always strikes me reading about various historical events is how few people did choose to actually pick up and move, even when (with the benefit of hindsight) the writing was already on the wall.
And that is exactly the thing that worries me. With hindsight it is easy to see these things. In the moment you might see it and think you are being extremist or you might be keeping your head down and miss it all together. That is why I struggle with balancing not wanting to go down extremist rabbit holes and messing up the nice thing I have going on now and being appropriately aware of what is going on around me.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2022, 05:10:13 PM »
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Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?

I mean, kinda? I took an oath to the constitution of the United States, and renew it every time I pin on a new rank. I’ll fight for that piece of paper to my own death, and I’ll be a partisan for democracy until I’m put down. But I made that decision a long time ago, so I don’t need to do any actual preparation.

frugalecon

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2022, 05:11:21 PM »
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Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?

I mean, kinda? I took an oath to the constitution of the United States, and renew it every time I pin on a new rank. I’ll fight for that piece of paper to my own death, and I’ll be a partisan for democracy until I’m put down. But I made that decision a long time ago, so I don’t need to do any actual preparation.

@Sailor Sam , your post made me feel a little better.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2022, 05:11:39 PM »
And that is exactly the thing that worries me. With hindsight it is easy to see these things. In the moment you might see it and think you are being extremist or you might be keeping your head down and miss it all together. That is why I struggle with balancing not wanting to go down extremist rabbit holes and messing up the nice thing I have going on now and being appropriately aware of what is going on around me.

Yeah, I really understand and can relate to that worry. It's easy in hindsight. Terribly hard in the heat of the moment. My thought is that drawing lines well in advance (while certainly worse than in hindsight) might still perform better than trying to judge as you go along and become accustomed to each new change as it happens. I have no idea if that is a valid approach or not.

The other weird/tricky thing is judging trade offs between false positives and false negatives. If there is a 99% chance things are going to spiral into a very bad place and a 1% chance they won't, that is clearly worth uprooting ones life to avoid even though you MIGHT be doing it for nothing. But what about a 50% chance? or 10%? It's hard.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2022, 05:15:59 PM »
Pathetic?  Would that be the opinion of the owners of the cars and businesses that were destroyed and/or looted?  Or the police inside the precinct building when attempts were made to seal it shut with quick drying concrete with people inside before setting it on fire? 

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-spokesperson-accuses-rioters-of-attempted-murder-for-trying-to-barricade-officers

True, the mobs did fail to burn down the Portland Courthouse, but it was not for lack of repeated attempts on multiple nights.

And even with the help from the far-right they did not manage to accomplish anything notable.

Compare and contrast with the Jan 6 crowd that has successfully breached the Capitol and hurt multiple police officers, several of whom died later.

And, as bad as looting is, providing material support to Hamas is way, way worse.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2022, 05:40:04 PM »
I do agree with posters who say that the Left will not show up for a fight. And even if some do, all previous attempts (think Portland Courthouse) have been pathetic. Right-wingers were able to drive from suburbs right into the heart of the bluest cities and harass people there with impunity. Authoritarian takeover - yes. Mob violence with law enforcement looking the other way - yes. Civil war - no.

Pathetic?  Would that be the opinion of the owners of the cars and businesses that were destroyed and/or looted?  Or the police inside the precinct building when attempts were made to seal it shut with quick drying concrete with people inside before setting it on fire? 

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-spokesperson-accuses-rioters-of-attempted-murder-for-trying-to-barricade-officers

True, the mobs did fail to burn down the Portland Courthouse, but it was not for lack of repeated attempts on multiple nights.

I don't like rioters. I have to pay for the shit that they break.

With that said, that's nothing compared to the anual car fires in France.

American GenX

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2022, 05:41:00 PM »
Pathetic?  Would that be the opinion of the owners of the cars and businesses that were destroyed and/or looted?  Or the police inside the precinct building when attempts were made to seal it shut with quick drying concrete with people inside before setting it on fire? 

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-spokesperson-accuses-rioters-of-attempted-murder-for-trying-to-barricade-officers

True, the mobs did fail to burn down the Portland Courthouse, but it was not for lack of repeated attempts on multiple nights.

And even with the help from the far-right they did not manage to accomplish anything notable.

Compare and contrast with the Jan 6 crowd that has successfully breached the Capitol and hurt multiple police officers, several of whom died later.

Looks like there were 5 police offers who later died, one stroke and 4 suicides, but none killed on Jan 6th.   Apparently four protestors died on Jan 6th.

Quote
I don't like rioters. I have to pay for the shit that they break.

.... and steal and burn down.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2022, 06:01:45 PM »
Apparently four protestors died on Jan 6th.

"Protestors".

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2022, 06:06:40 PM »
I am not a prepper either.  But I can easily imagine this scenario or some variation thereof:

     1.  Democrats get creamed in 2022 elections.

     2.  GOP uses victories to further consolidate power/install Trumpist election officials and judges.

     3.  Even with the rise of the right, Trump is such a bad candidate that enough centrists align with democrats to defeat him in the 2024 electoral college. 

     4.  Key state election officials refuse to certify the vote/throw out enough votes to turn election to Trump.  Legal challenges dismissed by lower-court Trumpist judges.  SCOTUS either (1) does not act until it is too late; (2) punts on the issue; (3) feels that the winds have shifted and sides with the GOP; or (4) overturns the lower courts but then are ignored.  [NOTE:  I do think the majority of justices are more concerned about personal legacy than fealty to the GOP/Trump.  So I do hold out hopes for SCOTUS as an institution, but it may not be enough to stop the following chain of events.]

     5.  Massive protests erupt to decry the throwing out of votes, along with condemnation across non-Fox media.  Protests continue for weeks.  But nothing is done and counterprotests of pro-GOP groups start showing up and growing in that time.  Smaller armed right-wing groups see this as their dream come true and start engaging violently. 

     6.  Eventually pushing and shoving and bottle throwing leads to shots fired, then many shots fired.  With encouragement from elected officials, cable news talking heads, and social media, police/military largely give right-wing groups pass as “keepers of order” over the “violent looters.”  Centrists and the more well-to-do stop protesting.

     7.  Inauguration Day on Jan. 20, 2025 removes any doubt that violence against those protesting Trump’s presidency will be tolerated, as protesters are beaten/killed with few repercussions.

     8.  After initial chaos and plunge of the stock market, things settle down.  There are still blistering op-eds about the death of American democracy, but people generally try to live their lives under the new regime, hoping for the best.  Massive deregulation and tax cuts juice things for a period of time.

     9.  Eventually due to short-sighted policies, massive deficits, loss of confidence in the U.S. economy, and maybe brain drain from people fleeing, market starts plunging again and things generally get really bad.

     10.  GOP politicians scapegoat “liberal elites” for wrecking the country.  Laws are passed permitting confiscation of assets of those deemed to be part of the problem (e.g., tech professionals, academia, those not registered GOP, etc.).  GOP state legislators order auditing of election ballots by partisan contractors to determine who voted the wrong way.  This is accepted by most of the population as justified by the liberal elites’ prior crimes against the country.   

     11.  “Liberal elites” turns into broader and broader groups of people deemed not sufficiently patriotic.  Facebook/Congress/Cable news personalities provide all the assurance needed that this is OK. 

     12.  The frog has been boiled and this is America now.

To me, part of why today is different is the wholesale creation of alternate realities that more and more people are living in, people who you might normally think are just busy living their own lives.  This provides the justification to do things that would be unthinkable just a decade or so earlier. 

As just one anecdote, I was stuck in a car recently and flipping through AM radio stations to find the news, and there was program after program whose message was essentially, “the Democratic party in the US is eroding your freedom, you are not alone in thinking this, there are legions of us out there, and things will be changing soon.”  There’s a lot of programming going on with much larger segments of the population than just the fringe right.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2022, 07:09:14 PM »
I am not a prepper either.  But I can easily imagine this scenario or some variation thereof:

     1.  Democrats get creamed in 2022 elections.

     2.  GOP uses victories to further consolidate power/install Trumpist election officials and judges.

     3.  Even with the rise of the right, Trump is such a bad candidate that enough centrists align with democrats to defeat him in the 2024 electoral college. 

     4.  Key state election officials refuse to certify the vote/throw out enough votes to turn election to Trump.  Legal challenges dismissed by lower-court Trumpist judges.  SCOTUS either (1) does not act until it is too late; (2) punts on the issue; (3) feels that the winds have shifted and sides with the GOP; or (4) overturns the lower courts but then are ignored.  [NOTE:  I do think the majority of justices are more concerned about personal legacy than fealty to the GOP/Trump.  So I do hold out hopes for SCOTUS as an institution, but it may not be enough to stop the following chain of events.]

     5.  Massive protests erupt to decry the throwing out of votes, along with condemnation across non-Fox media.  Protests continue for weeks.  But nothing is done and counterprotests of pro-GOP groups start showing up and growing in that time.  Smaller armed right-wing groups see this as their dream come true and start engaging violently. 

     6.  Eventually pushing and shoving and bottle throwing leads to shots fired, then many shots fired.  With encouragement from elected officials, cable news talking heads, and social media, police/military largely give right-wing groups pass as “keepers of order” over the “violent looters.”  Centrists and the more well-to-do stop protesting.

     7.  Inauguration Day on Jan. 20, 2025 removes any doubt that violence against those protesting Trump’s presidency will be tolerated, as protesters are beaten/killed with few repercussions.

     8.  After initial chaos and plunge of the stock market, things settle down.  There are still blistering op-eds about the death of American democracy, but people generally try to live their lives under the new regime, hoping for the best.  Massive deregulation and tax cuts juice things for a period of time.

     9.  Eventually due to short-sighted policies, massive deficits, loss of confidence in the U.S. economy, and maybe brain drain from people fleeing, market starts plunging again and things generally get really bad.

     10.  GOP politicians scapegoat “liberal elites” for wrecking the country.  Laws are passed permitting confiscation of assets of those deemed to be part of the problem (e.g., tech professionals, academia, those not registered GOP, etc.).  GOP state legislators order auditing of election ballots by partisan contractors to determine who voted the wrong way.  This is accepted by most of the population as justified by the liberal elites’ prior crimes against the country.   

     11.  “Liberal elites” turns into broader and broader groups of people deemed not sufficiently patriotic.  Facebook/Congress/Cable news personalities provide all the assurance needed that this is OK. 

     12.  The frog has been boiled and this is America now.

To me, part of why today is different is the wholesale creation of alternate realities that more and more people are living in, people who you might normally think are just busy living their own lives.  This provides the justification to do things that would be unthinkable just a decade or so earlier. 

As just one anecdote, I was stuck in a car recently and flipping through AM radio stations to find the news, and there was program after program whose message was essentially, “the Democratic party in the US is eroding your freedom, you are not alone in thinking this, there are legions of us out there, and things will be changing soon.”  There’s a lot of programming going on with much larger segments of the population than just the fringe right.

I'd watch this movie.

Nate79

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2022, 08:41:57 PM »
This country already dealt with months and months of huge numbers violent and disruptive protesters, rioters, vandalism,  and violence against people requiring police in riot gear, National Guard all across the country causing huge issues in many of the big cities across the country. There was true fear to enter into many of the big cities. Look at Seattle and Portland as just two examples. The country didn't fall apart into civil war.

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Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2022, 08:45:44 PM »
Since this forum skews heavily left it's interesting as someone on the right side of the political spectrum (albeit I reject the simplistic left-right model) looking in from the outside.


It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power - with a Democratic President and majority in Congress, left-leaning media, academia, massive support from tech companies (who essentially control the distribution of media/information), etc. Even big business, historically a Republican stronghold, now seems more concerned with supporting left-leaning causes and virtue signaling about the latest social issue than turning a profit.


I hadn't really thought about how there's really no equivalent on the left to religion/churches. Most Christians skew right, and you have tens (hundreds?) of thousands of churches that each represent a potential organizing group. Albeit there's a lot of Democrats who conveniently ignore basic Catholic doctrine which doesn't fit neatly into either the left or the right (feed the poor, shelter the homeless, protect life from conception to natural death, etc.).

roomtempmayo

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2022, 09:17:17 PM »
It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power

I think the anxiety on much of the left is that much of the right has employed a counter-majoritarian strategy of maximizing their influence in the courts and the Senate in opposition to the majority will.

On the left, that feels like minority rule.

And systemically, the feeling on the left is that there's a limit to the political results the right will accept before resorting to extra-constitutional measures to block those results, meaning there's a hard outer limit they've placed on political change.

alm0stk00l

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2022, 09:42:15 PM »
It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power

I think the anxiety on much of the left is that much of the right has employed a counter-majoritarian strategy of maximizing their influence in the courts and the Senate in opposition to the majority will.

On the left, that feels like minority rule.

It feels that way because by literally every metric that measures the American population the views of the right ARE the minority. The only way to believe that conservative views dominate, or even compete, with liberal views is to weight them based on land ownership, gender, or hue.

Every decision made in America driven by libertarians or conservatives is, in its very essence, minority rule.

Chris22

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2022, 09:51:48 PM »
It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power

I think the anxiety on much of the left is that much of the right has employed a counter-majoritarian strategy of maximizing their influence in the courts and the Senate in opposition to the majority will.

On the left, that feels like minority rule.

And systemically, the feeling on the left is that there's a limit to the political results the right will accept before resorting to extra-constitutional measures to block those results, meaning there's a hard outer limit they've placed on political change.

“Elections have consequences.”  -B. Obama

Travis

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2022, 11:59:04 PM »
2020 was pretty much the best case scenario when it comes to disputed election outcomes. Absolutely nothing weird/fishy came to light despite lots of looking, the outcome didn't depend on the election results in any single close state, and an awful lot of principled people in minor elected offices fell on their swords by refusing to cast doubt on the legitimacy of state elections even though the elections didn't go the way they personally wanted them to go.

In 2024 a lot of those same principled people will have resigned or lost reelections. In 2024 the election may be even closer.


I think the anxiety on much of the left is that much of the right has employed a counter-majoritarian strategy of maximizing their influence in the courts and the Senate in opposition to the majority will.

On the left, that feels like minority rule.
It feels that way because by literally every metric that measures the American population the views of the right ARE the minority. The only way to believe that conservative views dominate, or even compete, with liberal views is to weight them based on land ownership, gender, or hue.

Every decision made in America driven by libertarians or conservatives is, in its very essence, minority rule.

You're missing an important metric in American politics. The conservative-leaning population might be a minority, but their political power is not.  In 28 states, Republicans hold the majority of voting power whether it be the governor, state legislature, or who they send to Congress. States decide presidential elections, not individuals. Since the Senate usually reflects that state party majority, the Senate is almost always a Republican majority. Democrats haven't had more than a two-vote majority in 40 years. 52-57 seats for Republicans is the norm. And Senators stay put for six year terms. A Republican from Wyoming is one of the most powerful voters in the nation.

The day after 6 Jan, several states rolled out changes to voter laws or parliamentary procedures to prevent another Democrat presidential win.  Election officials in those same states are being challenged or replaced on the sole basis of having obeyed the law. Changing the laws, holding secure state-level majorities, and putting "friendlies" in as election officials essentially makes it gerrymandering at the national level.  Biden's win in several states was by only a few thousand votes.

I think to a lot of Republican politicians, 6 Jan was a dress rehearsal. They learned that they can disrupt every single election from now on.  Trump's advisors (the ones who are talking anyways) stated that the plan was to get most of the Republicans to vote against certifying the election in order to get their state legislatures to simply change the results.  There is no actual legal path to do this, but they were going to do it anyways and it's possible that the attack on the Capitol ruined that plan.  There's nothing stopping them or their state legislatures from trying again the next time, and no precedent for the Supreme Court to weigh in with should a bunch of states decide to claim voter fraud, change the votes, and plow ahead.


Will there be a civil war? No. Will blue voters in red states be terrorized or physically prevented from voting, with presidential elections becoming farces where Democrats have to claw their way to a win every time, and Republicans can comfortably try to steal or disrupt them from politically and legally-secure positions? I think that's the goal.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 12:02:52 AM by Travis »

Travis

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2022, 12:29:08 AM »
An issue I have no insight into is the climate in the U.S. military. All of them take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. How would the chain of command interpret that? Would uniformed officers be willing to follow illegal orders? Are there right-wing elements in the military that themselves would like to put in place a different system? (It is notable that nut job Mike Flynn was a high ranking officer in the military.)

Most of the military skews right in the political spectrum. However, you don't reach General/Admiral rank without being a political animal.

It's notable that it was a Lieutenant Colonel (O-5) with 17 years of service who called out the President, Secretary of Defense and various Generals for the failures in the withdrawal from Afghanistan and asked them to be held accountable. A Lieutenant Colonel is generally in charge of around 500 Soldiers/Marines/Airmen, or in the Navy (Commander) might be the Captain of a smaller ship like a destroyer or a submarine. By speaking up publicly he knew he would be kicked out of the Marines and forfeited a pension that would have been worth at least $60,000 a year assuming he retired at 20 years at the same rank. There's not a lot of Generals that are going to risk losing a pension worth $100k+/year to stand by their convictions. That's true of almost anyone in a position of power which is why it's so notable when someone at that level does resign.

I will say that my oath of office as an officer in the Army is to the Constitution of the United States of America - not to the President.


That Marine LTC got a little "Trumpy" the more he was given a forum which probably sealed his fate.  An Army LTC went very public with his vaccine opposition shortly thereafter. Hearing him speak to Hannity made you wonder if he was drunk or nuts.

There are definitely uniformed personnel who didn't see a problem with 6 Jan; however, I would place them in a scattered minority.  There were a few active duty at the Capitol, and a lot of veterans which the Pentagon took notice of.  The insurrection put a spotlight over the heads of anybody who may have leaned in that direction, and thanks to the wonders of the internet they're easier to find and single out.  There was only one person in my unit who openly complained why the BLM protesters weren't being gunned down by the Army. He was a civilian in his mid-50s, he never shut up, and I'm glad he's retired now.  No idea how Flynn got as far as he did, but apparently his peers were never fond of him.  Hopefully the senior ranks stay as level-headed as Milley did under his circumstances. He and Secretary Esper had to remind Trump that the Army was not his personal riot baton. We all hope such people continue to make the right choices.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2022, 05:21:19 AM »
You're missing an important metric in American politics. The conservative-leaning population might be a minority, but their political power is not.  In 28 states, Republicans hold the majority of voting power whether it be the governor, state legislature, or who they send to Congress. States decide presidential elections, not individuals. Since the Senate usually reflects that state party majority, the Senate is almost always a Republican majority. Democrats haven't had more than a two-vote majority in 40 years. 52-57 seats for Republicans is the norm. And Senators stay put for six year terms. A Republican from Wyoming is one of the most powerful voters in the nation.

The democrats held a 9-10 seat majority in the senate in from 2008-2010 (59-60 seats twelve years ago) and three seat majority from 2012-2014 (53 seats eight years ago).

I'd argue an individual voter in New Hampshire or Maine has a lot more power than an individual voter in Wyoming. Whatever that one specific voter does, their state is going to send the winner of the republican primary to the senate. New Hampshire or Maine probably have the highest odds that an individual voter's vote matters in terms of determining which senator gets elected. ... although with Alaska's new approach to electing senators may have catapulted it into the lead, will be interesting to see how it plays out in 2022.

The nationalization of state elections is a relatively recent phenomenon. Today we treat Manchen (the democratic senator from West Virginia as a fluke), but 14 years ago democratic senators were winning reelection in states like Louisiana, Arkansas and South Dakota and it wasn't treated as all that remarkable.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2022, 05:58:28 AM »
Quote
Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?

I mean, kinda? I took an oath to the constitution of the United States, and renew it every time I pin on a new rank. I’ll fight for that piece of paper to my own death, and I’ll be a partisan for democracy until I’m put down. But I made that decision a long time ago, so I don’t need to do any actual preparation.

@Sailor Sam , your post made me feel a little better.

@frugalcon, I'm glad! There is definitely a kind a peace to the world when you don't have to worry over the future. It's not an outcome I want, but should it happen, I know what I'll do.

chemistk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2022, 06:27:00 AM »
The right (using the term strictly to define anyone who is right-of-center) is far too fractured to have some cohesive ideology that would be rallied behind. Moreover, there's no one geographical region that would be fought over - save for maybe the Capitol as well as the capitals of more than a few states. With or without a defined 'border' that would be fought over, what would most people even fight for? Sure, the Evangelicals could incite a domestic holy war. Yeah, there'd definitely be more than a few groups fighting to evict all non-whites. But generally speaking, I just can't see the masses picking up arms simply over some arbitrary group labels like "Republicans" and "Democrats".

The left? I think it's laughable to think that any significant number of average schmucks who identify as left-of-center would even want to wage a war against their fellow Americans. I'm firmly moderate and even though I vehemently oppose Trumpism and hardline social conservatism, I'd never say that I truly hated someone enough to pick up a gun and start shooting.

Worse yet, all the things that would be fought over would be destroyed in the fight. The economy, healthcare, social institutions - gone as we know them. And when they're out of the picture, what motivation does that even give someone to continue to rue his neighbor to the point of conflict? I think the biggest thing anyone would overlook in all this is that if our current infrastructure was demolished (literally or figuratively), a significant majority of people would starve, full stop. Our food supply chain almost exclusively relies on domestic and international peace and cooperation. Any severance of that chain (as would occur when other countries close their borders to the US) would shut down the nation's food supply.

All that's to say, Civil war - as in actual conflict - probably isn't going to happen. And if it does, then we're all fucked and unless you have a bunker + supplies, you're in it like the rest of us.

Autocratic rule? Definitely possible. I know the OP is not directly referencing this, but I like to envision this similar to the events of The Handmaid's Tale - maybe without the forced sexual servitude because as far as I can tell, the concern about the ability of women to reproduce isn't there. If anything, it's dudes that should be worried. So skipping that part, there'd be an insane number of refugees fleeing the country assuming we get to the point where our institutions of democracy have been usurped. And at that point, physical assets (guns, tools, machinery, gold, etc.) is what's going to put you ahead.

I would argue that the definition of the political far right is religious/ethnic tribalism. They can quickly coagulate around symbols and leaders (recall how Trump came out of nowhere, and within months was declared the savior). Right-wingers tend to quickly form organizations and fall into line behind leaders. That's why you see these storefront Pentecostal churches getting started within a matter of weeks and "militia" groups jumping from Reddit to real life within months. Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize. Old principles or religious traditions are frequently changed if there is an opportunity to create an attractive organization. It doesn't matter if they are "fractured"; today's right-wing is a diverse coalition of evangelical protestants, Catholics, anti-tax rich people, racists, gun hobbyists, etc. and never once have these fractures been an actual weakness to the movement.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism. The general idea is "nobody can tell me what to do based on their supposedly higher status!" which is at odds with the concept of forming an organization. Organizations need leaders, a hierarchy, a method of attaining status and leadership roles, and rules/norms/restrictions for how people are allowed to interact with one another. Essentially, organizations create the inequalities and restrictions on personal liberty that offend left-wingers. So the modern left is more anti-organizational than anything. To the extent they support expanded government, it is because this is seen as the option to accomplish things without even more hierarchical and inequality-promoting private organizations.

The left wasn't always this extreme. Tightly-organized pro-equality organizations existed in the labor movement, civil rights movement, suffrage movement, abolitionism, and of course the American Revolution, among others. The past few decades have radicalized the left into an anti-organization attitude. Imagine left-wingers swearing oaths, wearing clothing symbolic of their group, attending meetings, and paying dues. That was the real world just a few generations ago.

Because organization = political power, the changing values on the left have led to a power vacuum, which is slowly being exploited by the right (slowly relative to the collapse of left-leaning organizations). The vacuum is steadily leading the US to being a one-party state by various means, and the Republican party has the opportunity to be more extreme and still win elections because they have layers upon layers of organizations full of passionate volunteers who are willing to take orders and follow rules.

It is the slowness of the transition that is frustrating right-wingers and leading to calls for violent overthrow. It is also the slowness of the transition that allows the left wing to live in denial about the inoperability of their value set, and to do nothing in the hopes that old government institutions run by political appointees will save the nation without much added input from them.

A left wing that is unwilling to pay the price associated with forming regularly meeting communities within a peaceful and prosperous society or unwilling to conform to anything less than their own individualistic preferences is not going to organize themselves into an army any time soon. They're not likely to join the police or military either. All these facts lead right wingers to ask "Why don't we just take it by force?"
 
Thus it is the weakness of the left which has led us to this moment of vulnerability for our two-party democracy. It is safe to say if left-wingers aren't willing to pay the much lower costs of organizing in today's peaceful and prosperous times, they aren't going to be willing to pay a higher price in a world of violence and deprivation.

To reverse the slide toward right-wing one-party rule, the left or middle-left would need to suddenly reject their cynicism about civic organization and go from being hyper-individualistic to being at least slightly collectivistic. I'm not sure how quick that can possibly happen, and I'm not sure if the left's insistence on absolute equality can coexist with left-wing organizations without creating an allergic reaction. How many people walk out when a rule is proposed about no outbursts during meetings?

The struggling left-leaning organizations I have observed tend to implode when their members (who are more pro-organization than those not attending) put their own interests, turf battles, and ideological pigeon holes ahead of the group's mission or the requirement to treat each other well (manners and social norms are conformism, not saying that ironically either).

I am carefully watching the younger generation to see if they show signs of rejecting the organizational cynicism and self-centeredness of their parents. That, in the end, and the amount of time remaining, will determine if two-party democracy continues in the U.S.

I was raised in a very conservative environment, and so was my wife. Ironically, just about everyone in my family and social circle who are conservative want one thing - to be left alone to be able to do what they want. Lots of "don't tread on me" and joking about the old saying about "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help". None, as far as I can reason, has any reason or will to actually take up arms. Fewer yet could even outline a basic thesis of government that would suit their needs other than something along the lines of returning to the Constitution as it was originally intended. Inevitably, what most of them really want is a veiled theocracy with "separation" of Church and state - with the caveat that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Taoists, Buddhists, and all non-Christians GTFO.

I'm not trying to usurp your condensation of the motivations of each party, because I'd mostly agree with you, but from the environment I was raised in I still find it hard to believe that the "Right" has enough manpower (more than fringe groups) to properly seize power and maintain that power. The radical Evangelical/Fundamentalist seeds are there, but they as far as I can tell want to usher in the end-times to win the absolute favor of God while watching the secular heathens around them be consumed by the fires of hell. I do not jest but obviously not every theocratic-oriented organization holds their belief with that much fervor. But in any case, it's not a great way to run society.

Again, I'd like to point to how interconnected our society is with the rest of the world. Treaties, deals, trade agreements, pacts can be broken. We don't have the resources or manpower to Brexit from the rest of the world and I'm sure more than a few progressive societies would choose to cease doing business directly with the US. Without international cooperation and the image of democracy, our infrastructure would crumble, rapidly, and I have no idea whether would-be insurrectionists even realize that the Capitalistic wet-dream "leave me alone" society they pine for would not even be possible without the cooperation of more than the Republican minority.

Point being, without a long term goal, either/both a return to a Christian male-led Evangelical/fundamentalist or/and a free-market "Don't Tread On Me" privately run society isn't going to have much going for it for very long.

But I think your point about left-wing apathy is the wild card. I've shifted far away from the way I was raised - I just want to live my life in relative peace, free to do the things that interest me, without hatred of other people and with the intent of fostering that same environment for my kids and future generations. I know there are plenty of self-identified liberals who feel the same way, and when that worldview is threatened I hope the proper opposition to it would be generated.

ETA: I have been thinking on this a bit more and the real wild card is climate change. How little power man truly holds will be revealed against a shifting climate. What the fuck does it matter if you hate minorities when your electrical grid fails, or your town is demolished by a "freak" weather event. If we do end up with a single-party state, how little it will matter when we're all caught pantsless against forces so wildly beyond our control. If anything, that should be the rally-cry for anyone who wishes to oppose those theocrats and xenophobes.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 08:25:32 AM by chemistk »

chemistk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2022, 06:39:12 AM »

Right-wingers are collectivists who quickly respond to calls to organize.

On the other hand, the definition of the modern left-winger is extreme individualism.


Interesting analysis. I disagree in general, but interesting nonetheless.


As someone on the right (albeit more libertarian and far less enamored of the Republican party, et al) I see far more individualism on the right and collectivism on the left. Organization occurs across the political spectrum and in general has gotten much harder over the years as there is less cultural and societal cohesiveness (see the 2000 book: Bowling Alone). A lot of people will complain on the internet but actually getting hundreds or thousands of people to show up in person or dedicate real time to an organization is very difficult. It doesn't matter if that organization is trying to advocate for or against a left-wing or right-wing issue. Civic engagement in general is far less than it was in decades past.

As someone who no longer respects either party in the USA I think that the left was about individualism during say The Enlightenment. It was all about how you could disagree and have the free exchange of ideas. Now (in the USA) it appears to be about wokeism. Which yea, seems pretty collective today.

We have to be careful to watch what people are actually doing rather than what people are saying on the internet. 1,000,000 memes plus 500k clicks of the "like" button matter less than one real world group of a dozen people physically meeting every weekend and planning activities to further their civic agenda. Some people may disagree, and my response is that your Facebook petitions don't actually go anywhere either. Political power is for those who show up, cooperate, and organize IRL. If skeptical, find me an exception to this rule (something bigger than the latest media frenzy that won't result in anything).

In reality, anti-abortion protesters take shifts to show up to the clinic every single day and have formed a little community around this activity, and the pro-choice side musters a relatively small annual event where almost everyone there is a stranger to each other. People who like guns have shooting clubs, ranges, hunting clubs, gun shows, and entire industries/professions - the gun control movement meanwhile is kind of a mail-us-your-money lobbyist operation. IRL, right-wing milita are training in every state every weekend, but there is no such thing as a formal antifa meetup with more than a handful of friends present, nor is there an "antifa" organization to join. It's nothing more than a hashtag. The truth is, you'd be hard pressed to find - even in cities - a cohesive community of left-wingers that has been around 10+ years coordinating their activities at the same level of organization as a single right-wing church, of which there are tens of thousands. Such a creature may exist somewhere, but even if you did find it you'd have to pass dozens of pro-Trump, anti-BLM, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-tax, anti-science evangelical churches to get there.

BTW, Bowling Alone was a great book. I don't know how the author didn't assign more causation to the rise of electronic media, and our behavior of spending more and more time over the decades staring at screens, even up to 1999. That time came from somewhere. It came out of the time people used to spend building communities. FWIW, my conservative friends are constantly talking about things they did while my liberal friends are constantly talking about things they watched.

The irony is that active participation in similar groups would be viewed as stooping by anyone on the left. It's a lose-lose: you don't stoop and your hypotheticals are overshadowed by the actions of a small few, or you do stoop and have mud slung at you for playing dirty, giving more license to the oppositional groups to do more as a counter.

But the counterpoint from my view is that the beliefs held by those who do protest, plot, and practice is so unpalatable that they MUST resort to action over ideation, because they know at some level that 50-60%++ of the general population is never going to agree with them. That the only way they can get their way is through force. As a supplement to my reply to your other post, the mettle of the non-right wingers will be tested simply through their willingness to be compliant with that power.

Moreover, I do think there's a lot that right-wing conservatives fear. Minorities being a huge part of that - will minority groups be willing to suffer and endure widespread subjugation and ire again? If the reconstrutcion period through the civil rights era tells us anything, I'd bet not.

svosavvy

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2022, 07:25:12 AM »
I'm less dismissive about the prospects of civil war than some here. Not that I want it, far from it, in recent years a deepening of my faith as led me to become something of a pacifist. Nor do I think it likely, but...

The stereotype of red state conservatives as fat, old, dumb, and lazy is just way off target. I'm more of an old school liberal/libertarian, but I live in a red state and I see hard core conservatives all around. Yes, there are those who fit this stereotype, but that's true of both sides. And the dumbest are usually the loudest. To the contrary, there are a lot of young, energetic conservative people. Intelligent even if lacking credentials. Very many are extremely fit and think nothing of hiking around with heavy loads in wilderness and living in freezing temperatures during hunting season. Proficient with firearms, and many current or ex-military. Thankfully, most are not hell-bent on insurrection.

But civil war in the modern US would not be a conventional war with opposing sides facing off in the field with large numbers of troops. It would be a dirty war, where the front line is nowhere and everywhere. Assassinations. Hitting soft targets. Strategic skirmishes. Attacks on supply chains and infrastructure. You know, like pretty much every conflict over the past 5 decades. In this type of war you don't need a lot of armed participants, a relative few with support from those sympathetic to the cause would be sufficient.

Again, it's unlikely, but then again, black swans and all that.
I tend to think a lot like this.  I would only ad that the old, fat, lazy idealogues will get the young zealots to fight their war for them.  Leading to loss and disenfranchisement of the young a la "All quiet on the western front."

former player

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2022, 08:29:14 AM »
The day after 6 Jan, several states rolled out changes to voter laws or parliamentary procedures to prevent another Democrat presidential win.  Election officials in those same states are being challenged or replaced on the sole basis of having obeyed the law. Changing the laws, holding secure state-level majorities, and putting "friendlies" in as election officials essentially makes it gerrymandering at the national level.  Biden's win in several states was by only a few thousand votes.

I think to a lot of Republican politicians, 6 Jan was a dress rehearsal. They learned that they can disrupt every single election from now on.  Trump's advisors (the ones who are talking anyways) stated that the plan was to get most of the Republicans to vote against certifying the election in order to get their state legislatures to simply change the results.  There is no actual legal path to do this, but they were going to do it anyways and it's possible that the attack on the Capitol ruined that plan.  There's nothing stopping them or their state legislatures from trying again the next time, and no precedent for the Supreme Court to weigh in with should a bunch of states decide to claim voter fraud, change the votes, and plow ahead.


Will there be a civil war? No. Will blue voters in red states be terrorized or physically prevented from voting, with presidential elections becoming farces where Democrats have to claw their way to a win every time, and Republicans can comfortably try to steal or disrupt them from politically and legally-secure positions? I think that's the goal.

This looks about right to me.  The aim of the radical right-wing in the USA (of which the Republican Party is currently a wholly-owned subsidiary) is to subvert election law and the courts in order to hold on to as much power as they can in the face of a changing world.  There are only two ways to contest that aim: lawfully, through elections and through legal action, and unlawfully, through violence.   The first is already more or less lost: see the changes to State election laws and the wholesale replacement of election officials with partisan fanatics who believe the big lie about the 2020 Presidential election being stolen, and see also the strongly right-wing partisan Supreme Court who have already refused to enforce federal law against Republican States (see Texas abortion law).  At the moment I'm not seeing an electoral or legal way back from this.  The US Constitution creates too many weaknesses in the system for it to hold against a determined attempt at corrupting it.*

As to violence, the right doesn't need to instigate violence if it has captured the electoral and legal systems.  That means that any violence would start on the left, by people disgruntled that the right have taken power through corrupting the electoral and legal systems.  And any such violence would be portrayed as being violent insurrection against the established legal and constitutional order, quick to fizzle out and easily put down.

Also, for anyone contemplating emigration, I'm not sure where (a) you think significant numbers of you would be welcome and (b) where you think you could live happily given how differently most of the rest of us live to the norm in the USA.


*  I am astonished at how many different opportunities your electoral system creates for elections to be corrupted.  Partisan election rules. Partisan election officials.  Many different steps at which results of a vote can be corrupted:  partisan counting of votes, partisan certification of results, partisan sending of results to Congress, partisan voting in Congress to accept results.  Contrast with the UK's Parliamentary system: non-partisan Electoral Commission setting election boundaries, single non-political public official definitively announcing the result of the count in each constituency, job done.

StarBright

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2022, 08:36:08 AM »

It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power - with a Democratic President and majority in Congress, left-leaning media, academia, massive support from tech companies (who essentially control the distribution of media/information), etc. Even big business, historically a Republican stronghold, now seems more concerned with supporting left-leaning causes and virtue signaling about the latest social issue than turning a profit.


I have a feeling that the above narrative is state dependent in many ways (if we ignore Mitch and the Supreme Court), in that it is probably coming the loudest from places where we are seeing outsized and still growing Republican influence.

For instance, Ohio is a purple/trending red state. Trump got %53 of the vote in 2020 here. We have 1 (self proclaimed moderate) Republican and 1 Democratic Senator. Our Senate seat in 2024 is considered v. competitive and a potential Dem swing. But:

  • The new approved redistricting lines are so non-competitive that Republicans are expected to win 87% of the House seats in 2024.
  • This, despite the fact that there were TWO state ballot initiatives that overwhelming voted to legally require equivalent and fair representation in redistricting. Our previous map was so bad that the Ohioans voted twice for more representative redistricting and the committee basically ignored it.
  • So, of course there are lawsuits, because the new districts don't meet the legal requirements to be representative of the voting population.
  • But get this, one of the state supreme judges hearing the case is the son of the governor who is being sued.
  • He has decided not to recuse himself, because he feels he can be objective.
So in a state that goes slightly more than 50% Republican for Pres and is considered competitive for our senate seats - we will likely have 87% republican representatives in the House, and we have 100% Republican controlled state general assembly and state big 3 offices. And a state supreme court justice is the son of the governor and doesn't recuse himself from legal challenges.

At the state level this gives us new and interesting rules like our state assembly can now overrule the governor on health orders. (not to mention all the thornier political issues). So they just don't bother to set health guidelines at the state level.

To the OPs question - Yeah we are lightly planning for what to do if sh*t hits the fan. We keep our eyes open for jobs abroad, We keep our passports up to date. We chat about moving 20 minutes north over the state line as our kids (but especially our daughter) get older.

I keep squirrelling away money because my husband is an academic and has been targeted by a Professor Watchlist-type organization. If our general assembly is able to get rid of tenure (which they are rumbling about) I can easily see my husband's job disappearing in the next few years. I received a few on-line death threats last year for being involved with an organization that was seen as encouraging taxes in our community. I think people are nuts.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 09:50:21 AM by StarBright »

Travis

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2022, 08:50:58 AM »

The nationalization of state elections is a relatively recent phenomenon. Today we treat Manchen (the democratic senator from West Virginia as a fluke), but 14 years ago democratic senators were winning reelection in states like Louisiana, Arkansas and South Dakota and it wasn't treated as all that remarkable.

I skipped right over 2009. I was skimming the list and my eyes got accustomed to seeing Republican majorities.  Regarding Manchin, a couple decades ago there was a caucus of fiscally conservatives Democrats. Our primary election process favors extremes, and eventually anybody in the middle was phased out.  I mentioned Wyoming earlier, and now being Republican isn't enough. The state party is trying to force Liz Cheney out of office and out of the party.  If you're a Republican and had the temerity to disagree with Trump about anything, your seat may be in danger from your own party next election.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2022, 08:54:09 AM »

The nationalization of state elections is a relatively recent phenomenon. Today we treat Manchen (the democratic senator from West Virginia as a fluke), but 14 years ago democratic senators were winning reelection in states like Louisiana, Arkansas and South Dakota and it wasn't treated as all that remarkable.

I skipped right over 2009. I was skimming the list and my eyes got accustomed to seeing Republican majorities.  Regarding Manchin, a couple decades ago there was a caucus of fiscally conservatives Democrats. Our primary election process favors extremes, and eventually anybody in the middle was phased out.  I mentioned Wyoming earlier, and now being Republican isn't enough. The state party is trying to force Liz Cheney out of office and out of the party.  If you're a Republican and had the temerity to disagree with Trump about anything, your seat may be in danger from your own party next election.

That's because a Republican who doesn't wholeheartedly buy into Trumpism isn't a real Republican any more in the eyes of the voters.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2022, 09:03:22 AM »
I skipped right over 2009. I was skimming the list and my eyes got accustomed to seeing Republican majorities.  Regarding Manchin, a couple decades ago there was a caucus of fiscally conservatives Democrats. Our primary election process favors extremes, and eventually anybody in the middle was phased out.  I mentioned Wyoming earlier, and now being Republican isn't enough. The state party is trying to force Liz Cheney out of office and out of the party.  If you're a Republican and had the temerity to disagree with Trump about anything, your seat may be in danger from your own party next election.

This is a point Andrew Yang has been making very loudly in the social circles I belong to but I don't have a good sense of how much (if at all) the rest of the country hears about it.

Something like 83% of congressional elections are "safe seats" where the only election that matters in the republican (or democratic) primary. Because so few people vote in primaries compared to general elections, those 83% of congress people are being selected by only 10-15% of voters representing the most extreme wing of the base of one the other of our political parties. And after they're elected they have much more to fear from a primary challenge from their right (if republican) or left (if democratic) than the general election, so they're typically only answerable and accountable to that same extreme slice of 10-15% of their own constituency.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2022, 09:23:54 AM »

It seems like a lot of those on the left think that the world is crumbling around them and somehow the right is gaining power - with a Democratic President and majority in Congress, left-leaning media, academia, massive support from tech companies (who essentially control the distribution of media/information), etc. Even big business, historically a Republican stronghold, now seems more concerned with supporting left-leaning causes and virtue signaling about the latest social issue than turning a profit.


I have a feeling that the above narrative is state dependent in many ways (if we ignore Mitch and the Supreme Court), in that it is probably coming the loudest from places where we are seeing outsized and still growing Republican influence.

For instance, Ohio is a purple/trending red state. Trump got %53 of the vote in 2020 here. We have 1 (self proclaimed moderate) Republican and 1 Democratic Senator. Our Senate seat in 2024 is considered v. competitive and a potential Dem swing.


I don't know much about the demographics or voting patterns of Ohio, but the old map looks gerrymandered as hell compared to the new one. It's clear Democrats are concentrated in urban areas (as is true almost everywhere) and when you look at the old districts it takes a sliver of a city and then drags it out over a large suburban/ rural area (see attached photos for the Cleveland area).
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/ohio/

Here in New Mexico in contrast the latest redistricting map ensured that the one 1 congressional district (of 3) that was historically Republican (though even it went blue in 2018) has now been redrawn to ensure a Democratic majority. They did the opposite of Ohio. Here they took the one urban district (Albuquerque) that was heavily Democrat and split it up to dilute the Republican vote in the larger rural areas in the southern and eastern part of the state that had been the one district that historically went Republican.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/new-mexico/

New Mexico hasn't really been a purple state in a while. Bush barely won the state by a few thousand votes in 2004. Other than that, the state has gone Democrat since 1992. The last Republican Senator won in 2002 and since he retired in 2008 Republicans haven't stood a chance. The state house and senate have been solid Democrat majorities for many decades and although we've had a Republican governor in the recent past, that's unlikely to happen again.

maizefolk

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2022, 09:33:06 AM »
Michael in ABQ, that's also an important point. There is lots of partisan gerrymandering going on, but even in its absence, the way we choose to live would an electoral disadvantage for the democratic party.

If you ask an algorithm to draw congressional districts nationwide with no criteria other than to make them compact, the republicans end up with a roughly 25-30 seat advantage in terms of safe districts* because the USA is made up of some pockets of >90% democratic voters and much larger parts of the country with 30-40% democratic voters.

*Go here and pick "Make Districts Compact": https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/


Dexterous

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2022, 10:06:16 AM »
No idea how Flynn got as far as he did, but apparently his peers were never fond of him.

Hahaha... you sure about that? What people say to the cameras might be different than behind closed doors. A lot of others just keep their mouths shut.

StarBright

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2022, 12:48:56 PM »

I don't know much about the demographics or voting patterns of Ohio, but the old map looks gerrymandered as hell compared to the new one. It's clear Democrats are concentrated in urban areas (as is true almost everywhere) and when you look at the old districts it takes a sliver of a city and then drags it out over a large suburban/ rural area (see attached photos for the Cleveland area).
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/ohio/

Here in New Mexico in contrast the latest redistricting map ensured that the one 1 congressional district (of 3) that was historically Republican (though even it went blue in 2018) has now been redrawn to ensure a Democratic majority. They did the opposite of Ohio. Here they took the one urban district (Albuquerque) that was heavily Democrat and split it up to dilute the Republican vote in the larger rural areas in the southern and eastern part of the state that had been the one district that historically went Republican.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/new-mexico/

New Mexico hasn't really been a purple state in a while. Bush barely won the state by a few thousand votes in 2004. Other than that, the state has gone Democrat since 1992. The last Republican Senator won in 2002 and since he retired in 2008 Republicans haven't stood a chance. The state house and senate have been solid Democrat majorities for many decades and although we've had a Republican governor in the recent past, that's unlikely to happen again.

As someone who isn't familiar w/ New Mexico - does the redistricting bring the representation more or less in line with the current voting patterns of the entire state? If it gives an advantage to democrats that isn't supported by voting records/patterns, then I agree it isn't fair.

Because in OH - yes, our old map was grossly gerrymandered; so badly that 75% of the state voted for "fairer" redistricting.

The new map cleans up the districts visually, but maintains the representation that is out of sync with current state wide voting patterns. And that disparity makes it almost impossible to do things that might correct the representation.

And then there were all of my bullet points that you didn't copy in your response :)

But yeah, as a liberal in a purple area that has very red representation - it does feel like the world is crumbling a little (because of things like those bullet points). The crumbling feeling is because it feels like rules and laws are starting not to matter:

Feel like you aren't represented? Then follow the rules and pass a ballot initiative for fair representation!
Oh it passed! Great!
But the redistricting committee has decided it doesn't have to follow the rule that people voted for.
That's okay - we have a legal system, and we can challenge their redistricting in court.
Oh too bad the Governor's son sits on the state supreme court and has decided not to recuse himself from the case against his father.

*ETA - In a move that shocked everyone, the Chief Justice of State Supreme Court broke with her party and the new maps were shot down 4/3 (The governor's son voted for his father's map - no one was shocked). This decision came down about 5 minutes ago. This is a happy surprise that takes the crumbling feeling away a tiny bit :)





« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 02:50:09 PM by StarBright »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2022, 01:30:29 PM »

I don't know much about the demographics or voting patterns of Ohio, but the old map looks gerrymandered as hell compared to the new one. It's clear Democrats are concentrated in urban areas (as is true almost everywhere) and when you look at the old districts it takes a sliver of a city and then drags it out over a large suburban/ rural area (see attached photos for the Cleveland area).
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/ohio/

Here in New Mexico in contrast the latest redistricting map ensured that the one 1 congressional district (of 3) that was historically Republican (though even it went blue in 2018) has now been redrawn to ensure a Democratic majority. They did the opposite of Ohio. Here they took the one urban district (Albuquerque) that was heavily Democrat and split it up to dilute the Republican vote in the larger rural areas in the southern and eastern part of the state that had been the one district that historically went Republican.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-2022-maps/new-mexico/

New Mexico hasn't really been a purple state in a while. Bush barely won the state by a few thousand votes in 2004. Other than that, the state has gone Democrat since 1992. The last Republican Senator won in 2002 and since he retired in 2008 Republicans haven't stood a chance. The state house and senate have been solid Democrat majorities for many decades and although we've had a Republican governor in the recent past, that's unlikely to happen again.

As someone who isn't familiar w/ New Mexico - does the redistricting bring the representation more or less in line with the current voting patterns of the entire state? If it gives an advantage to democrats that isn't supported by voting records/patterns, then I agree it isn't fair.

Because in OH - yes, our old map was grossly gerrymandered; so badly that 75% of the state voted for "fairer" redistricting.

The new map cleans up the districts visually, but maintains the representation that is out of sync with current state wide voting patterns. And that disparity makes it almost impossible to do things that might correct the representation.

And then there were all of my bullet points that you didn't copy in your response :)

But yeah, as a liberal in a purple area that has very red representation - it does feel like the world is crumbling a little (because of things like those bullet points). The crumbling feeling is because it feels like rules and laws are starting not to matter:

Feel like you aren't represented? Then follow the rules and pass a ballot initiative for fair representation!
Oh it passed! Great!
But the redistricting committee has decided it doesn't have to follow the rule that people voted for.
That's okay - we have a legal system, and we can challenge their redistricting in court.
Oh too bad the Governor's son sits on the state supreme court and has decided not to recuse himself from the case against his father.


It seems like you can frame redistricting in any number of ways to provide an advantage to one side or the other. Is it more "fair" to have a large rural district that's 80% Republican or a small urban district that's 80% Democrat or to split so it's 50/50? Or to make it more compact, or to spread it across urban/suburban/rural areas?

But I'll agree it's a problem when you have what is essentially one-party rule in a state (which seems to be the way things are trending as people choose with their feet since their vote doesn't count). I'm sure any Republicans in California feel like they can't get a fair court hearing, let alone any action on the executive or legislative fronts.

the_gastropod

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2022, 01:33:36 PM »
I skipped right over 2009. I was skimming the list and my eyes got accustomed to seeing Republican majorities.  Regarding Manchin, a couple decades ago there was a caucus of fiscally conservatives Democrats. Our primary election process favors extremes, and eventually anybody in the middle was phased out.  I mentioned Wyoming earlier, and now being Republican isn't enough. The state party is trying to force Liz Cheney out of office and out of the party.  If you're a Republican and had the temerity to disagree with Trump about anything, your seat may be in danger from your own party next election.

I understand what you're saying, and there is no doubt some truth to it. But I can't help but point out the dramatic asymmetry between the magnitude of extremism among Democrats and Republicans. This is a very well documented and studied phenomenon [1] [2] [3] [4]. The Democratic Party has gotten marginally more leftist, and the Republican Party has moved significantly to the right over the past few decades.

Even without these studies, it should be clear by just looking at election results. Republicans elected Donald Trump—certainly the most extremist right-wing president in any of our lifetimes. Joe Biden, who was one of, if not the most "centrist" candidates won his election. New York City—one of the oft-fear-mongered bastions of "wokeism" and dirty socialists—just elected as their mayor a former cop, and absolutely the most conservative candidate of the bunch. Where is the left's version of Marjorie Taylor Greene? Lauren Boebert? Matt Gaetz? Madison Cawthorn? Louie Gohmert? Andy Biggs? Paul Gosar? I could go on and on and on. Yet, the most demonized extremist "leftist" politician in the Democratic Party is AOC—who any reasonable human, though they may disagree with her, would recognize as, at minimum, an articulate, and well-intentioned person. No. The sides are not equivalent.


[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/solutions-to-political-polarization-in-america/confronting-asymmetric-polarization/3966003B2517E22BF288796AC4985F34
[2] https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.35.1.97
[3] https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/oso/9780190923624.001.0001/oso-9780190923624-chapter-10
[4] https://columbialawreview.org/content/asymmetric-constitutional-hardball/

sixwings

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2022, 02:34:47 PM »
A civil war is far less likely than the west cost and north east splitting off to join canada. In which case there may be some economic warfare but armed conflict within the US as a civil war? No way.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2022, 02:50:10 PM »
A civil war is far less likely than the west cost and north east splitting off to join canada. In which case there may be some economic warfare but armed conflict within the US as a civil war? No way.

California and New York combined would be a pretty decent country on their own from an economic perspective.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2022, 03:08:11 PM »
There was true fear to enter into many of the big cities. Look at Seattle and Portland as just two examples. The country didn't fall apart into civil war.

There was so much fear that right-wingers were driving through crowds of  "violent protesters", shooting them with paintball guns with impunity. This is in the middle of one of the bluest cities.

They marauded through DC - a place none of them lived in, stabbing four, stealing and burning church property. Again, 700 in the middle of the deep blue place of 700,000, feeling completely safe and in control, not fearing the "violent antifa" or the police.

Your fear is a reflection of the media you consume. It's not a reflection of reality.


GodlessCommie

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2022, 03:10:38 PM »
A civil war is far less likely than the west cost and north east splitting off to join canada. In which case there may be some economic warfare but armed conflict within the US as a civil war? No way.

What amuses me is that no one ever seems to ask Canadians about that.

West Coast is not all the same. There are very red places farther away from, well, the coast. They will not accept anything quietly.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #98 on: January 12, 2022, 03:24:28 PM »
A civil war is far less likely than the west cost and north east splitting off to join canada. In which case there may be some economic warfare but armed conflict within the US as a civil war? No way.

What amuses me is that no one ever seems to ask Canadians about that.

West Coast is not all the same. There are very red places farther away from, well, the coast. They will not accept anything quietly.

I took part in the 2016 National Level Exercise, “Cascadia Rising.” It was about the fault line letting go, but it still made me snortle pretty regularly. Them mountains are more than just a geographic divide.

PDXTabs

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Re: Are you preparing for the next U.S. civil war and autocratic rule?
« Reply #99 on: January 12, 2022, 03:41:01 PM »
A civil war is far less likely than the west cost and north east splitting off to join canada. In which case there may be some economic warfare but armed conflict within the US as a civil war? No way.

What amuses me is that no one ever seems to ask Canadians about that.

West Coast is not all the same. There are very red places farther away from, well, the coast. They will not accept anything quietly.

I agree that no one ever asks the Canadians about it, but do you really think that they would turn down all the tech on the West Coast if given the option to acquire it into the tax base? Gun control might be a sticky issue, but they could delegate that to the West Coast similar to how Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Britain all have different gun laws but open borders.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!