Are you Mustachian, or just LBYM?

[Imma]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

Just out of curiosity, do you include your housing costs in that 30k? Is it for just you or more than one person?

I'm kind of shocked too, it's at 8% now but still a lot lower than I expected. Just biking and buying a cheap house doesn't even really sound hardcore Mustachian to me.

Our joint income is around 30k and we save about half of it. We don't own a car and we bought the cheapest house we could find, 800 square foot in the inner city. We still live a life of luxury: 2 people, 3 bedrooms and no roommate anymore, a garden, we eat other things than rice and beans, we own several pairs of shoes each. This is the richest we've ever been and I'm sure I could cut at least 3k, probably closer to 5k, in spending every year if I tried.

[uwp]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

I don't fault anyone for not including money they didn't actually spend in their annual expenses. It seems like a pretty pointless exercise, honestly, to figure out how much imaginary money to add into your calculations.

It might come in handy if you wanted to compare your spending to someone else's and say, "Look how little I spend.  I don't understand why everyone else doesn't just live on 25k/year like me."

[E.T.]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

Just out of curiosity, do you include your housing costs in that 30k? Is it for just you or more than one person?

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's awesome, I'd like to be at that level eventually. We'd be close to that I think without my student loan payments. Kudos to everyone spending under 30k. And to the rest of you too for making spending choices consciously.

[jlcnuke]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

Just out of curiosity, do you include your housing costs in that 30k? Is it for just you or more than one person?

I'm kind of shocked too, it's at 8% now but still a lot lower than I expected. Just biking and buying a cheap house doesn't even really sound hardcore Mustachian to me.

Our joint income is around 30k and we save about half of it. We don't own a car and we bought the cheapest house we could find, 800 square foot in the inner city. We still live a life of luxury: 2 people, 3 bedrooms and no roommate anymore, a garden, we eat other things than rice and beans, we own several pairs of shoes each. This is the richest we've ever been and I'm sure I could cut at least 3k, probably closer to 5k, in spending every year if I tried.

I expected that people like myself ("spendypants" that are still saving a lot of money) would be much more in the minority. I'd guess that, like myself, many people ended up coming across these forums based on "living below your means" topics and stuck around, despite not really subscribing to the more "extreme" cutting of expenses. I'm absolutely certain that much of my spending (and especially one of my planned future large purchases) would seem an outrageous waste of money to the more mustachian posters here, but I still enjoy helping with people's questions on investments or discussing how to "DIY" some projects or save money in some areas.

[stackorstarve]

While I've been following the forum more the last couple years, I have seen more snobbery and egotism among "Mustachians" which I don't really understand. They learned how to save more and more, reached their goals, and now generalize people that are in similar situations they once were. Very interesting.

I've seen that quite a bit, and I think a lot of it is assuming everyone has the same life goals. Being non-mustachian isn't bad (though I can see how you would get that from some of MMM's articles but the "face-punching" is just the theme, not real life, lol). That's not the point. The point is that FIRE is possible and anyone who says is it's impossible is just straight up wrong. Some people want to work until they're 50, 60, 70. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that you can also retire at 30 or 40 but requires a different lifestyle.

I value not working over things that cost money. I'm hustling and trying to make as much money as I can while in college. My investments are at about ~16000 across taxable and IRA accounts after about a year and half of saving money from working 25+ hrs/week while on-campus on top of classes and internships while not in school. I've kept and average savings rate at ~40-50%. I sleep in a small apartment, paying somewhere the lower 10% of rent in the area, some of my friends are paying somewhere in the upper 20%. I have plenty of friends that work less than half of what I do and party a lot. I'm not much into that; they are. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing. They have different values than I do.

Sorry if this came off a little rant-y, just needed to let it out. Seen too many people hating on other people's life choices when it doesn't affect them at all.

[Zikoris]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

I don't fault anyone for not including money they didn't actually spend in their annual expenses. It seems like a pretty pointless exercise, honestly, to figure out how much imaginary money to add into your calculations.

It might come in handy if you wanted to compare your spending to someone else's and say, "Look how little I spend.  I don't understand why everyone else doesn't just live on 25k/year like me."

I think it's easy enough to just say "I live on X, and my house is also paid off", and let people do what they will with that info, rather than do some weird math with imaginary numbers that somehow doubles your spending. Once you get into weird accounting, there will always be something people can nitpick at - this fake number is too high, that fake number is too low. It seems to be adding a level of complexity that just doesn't need to be there.

[stackorstarve]

Wow, I see why people have been saying the forum's gone soft. Honestly surprised. Right now, I'm apparently in the 5% who actually live this thing, and I'm pretty shocked it's not the 50%+.

I mean I think MMM has attracted a sorta mid-tier Mustachianism crowd that doesn't really live the full lifestyle but want to be more financially responsible which sorta brings it down, too. Also I think there's a huge gray area between the first option and the second and people may be underestimating themselves to the second option. I chose the second option since I'm  still in college and haven't technically borne the full costs of living (healthcare, mostly).

[stackorstarve]

We've spent around 27K/year for many years, 100% of spending, for two people and one cat. Leaving your biggest expense out of the equation (housing) would be some pretty fishy accounting.

That's what MMM does in his annual spending posts. 

I'm sure it's been debated many times, but if you take MMM's annual spending, add back in imputed rent (2k/month that he estimates), while removing ownership costs (property taxes and maintenance); you end up at ~$45-$50k/year, which is not that different from a median US family's after tax income.

I don't fault anyone for not including money they didn't actually spend in their annual expenses. It seems like a pretty pointless exercise, honestly, to figure out how much imaginary money to add into your calculations.

It might come in handy if you wanted to compare your spending to someone else's and say, "Look how little I spend.  I don't understand why everyone else doesn't just live on 25k/year like me."

I think it's easy enough to just say "I live on X, and my house is also paid off", and let people do what they will with that info, rather than do some weird math with imaginary numbers that somehow doubles your spending. Once you get into weird accounting, there will always be something people can nitpick at - this fake number is too high, that fake number is too low. It seems to be adding a level of complexity that just doesn't need to be there.

I think it can be helpful to compare against others but to make it a detailed comparison is next to impossible for all of the caveats that can exists in someone's life. I usually just use people's stories across the forum to try to get an idea of where I'm at--not to directly compare.

[jlcnuke]

Do you believe the things that you like and enjoy are outside your locus of control?  Kind of sounds like you do.  I believe that we can be born with inclinations, but that those inclinations can be trained and refined and modified.  That the things we like is not an affliction; it's a choice we make every day.

Who cares if it's controllable. If I want to live my life doing the things I enjoy, and they cost money, I'm going to spend money doing them. Sure, I could decide to "not do the things I like and try to find cheaper things to do that I might like" but why? For me, working doesn't suck so bad that I want to give up the things I enjoy simply because they cost money (or more money than some other things).

I can say definitively that I am MORE happy diving in tropical waters than I am playing free poker at the local pool hall. Sure, I'll go play poker still when I'm at home, but I'd much rather be diving in the tropics despite the increased costs associated with that activity.

Cool  -  more power to you.  I'm not trying to influence your choices; I'm just suggesting that it still boils down to choice -- not fate.

Almost all spending is choice. A person could choose to live in a tent, forage for wood and water from a river, eating just rice and beans with hikes through forests as entertainment (maybe picking some berries along the way or getting free scraps from dumpsters etc). The costs of such a lifestyle would probably be somewhere less than $2k/year. That's enough to "exist", and there are people in this country that live such a lifestyle. All spending about the absolute bare minimum to meet the needs of survival is choice, not fate. I'd never suggest otherwise.

My point was that "what choices" people make is based on what they find they enjoy, and people who enjoy more expensive things will need more money to accommodate a lifestyle that allows them to do such things than a person who enjoys walking in the woods, camping, and eating rice and beans every day.

[FIRE Artist]

We're in a co-op, but in Canada they actually have less rent control than the market - non-existent, really. Co-ops operate under a different set of laws, so while normal rentals are capped at a certain % per year (changes every year, but 3% is common), there is virtually no limit as to how much co-ops can increase. In the recent past, there have been 40%+ increases for some units, for example. This year we're probably looking at 20-25%, which is still manageable, but getting borderline. So I have a pretty good idea how our time here will eventually end - with a massive increase in rent that pushes us to find a cheaper place.

Does your Co-op have a min and max income requirement?  They did where I grew up in the Maritimes, so I am wondering how feasible they are for professionals with six figure salaries during their career.  It could be awesome for someone like me post FIRE, and may make my dream of moving to Victoria more acheivable now that real estate is insane there. 

[one piece at a time]

My house has a spare bedroom which we use, but don't need, and we keep the whole thing a pretty comfortable temperatures. I also drive more than I really need to but my car (and fuel) is provided by my work. We eat brand name biscuits. I selected item 2.

[wordnerd]

Related to the low number reporting being a true Mustachian, I think the set-up of the answers may've led people to select the "less extreme" options, either because they didn't hit all the requirements listed for true Mustachianism (including biking everywhere) or just because they don't view themselves as the most extreme people on the board. The responses are drawing a normal distribution curve. I bet if we set the answers to have Mustachianism as the third option with ERE-level and aesthetic (or something) below it, we would still see a normal distribution curve and a lot more people would be reporting that they're Mustachians.

[Jrr85]

I was interested to see how many people are living the Mustachian life, vs just trying to be fiscally responsible. For my purposes here, fiscally responsible means spending less than you earn while having at least a 10% savings rate (the minimum recommend to be financially secure at "normal" retirement age for "normal" people).

Personally, I've been fiscally responsible for a long time, and I have "some" Mustachian habits, but no one would mistake my lifestyle for Mustachian overall (though very "LBYM FIRE-style"). A good amount of my spending would be considered "face punch worthy" by most "true Mustachians" I'd wager. If I wanted a "textbook" Mustachian lifestyle I'd be FIRE already. I'm okay waiting until my late 40's (6-8 years from now) instead to finance the lifestyle I think I'd rather have however.

What about you?

I don't think a savings rate of 10% really qualifies as living below your means.  Unless you assume that you are going to die early or pretty significantly decrease your spending later on, can you really save 10% and keep your spending roughly stable in retirement?  Maybe for some low earners, that plus social security will allow you to avoid a drop in spending.  How many years would you have to save 10% to replace your income?  Would 40 years do it? 

As for me, I'm somewhere between LBYM-FIRE style and just plain old LBYM. 

My current rate is more LBYM-FIRE Style, but I started late enough and have an expensive enough lifestyle that I will be close to 60 before I can replace my income (although I guess I could cheat that earlier if I counted social security).  Hoping that current $24k of childcare costs will drop significantly as the kids get older, which could maybe put me firmly in the LYBM-FIRE style.
 

[Cranky]

Being a baby boomer I have been frugal most of my life and our friends were too.  Now at 63 we are traveling more, eating out more and going to more entertainment then ever before because we have both the time and $.

This is where we are - we’ve always been careful with money, because we haven’t had too much of it. Now the kids are out of the house, and for the first time we’re able to do some things just because we want to.

[uwp]

Related to the low number reporting being a true Mustachian, I think the set-up of the answers may've led people to select the "less extreme" options, either because they didn't hit all the requirements listed for true Mustachianism (including biking everywhere) or just because they don't view themselves as the most extreme people on the board. The responses are drawing a normal distribution curve. I bet if we set the answers to have Mustachianism as the third option with ERE-level and aesthetic (or something) below it, we would still see a normal distribution curve and a lot more people would be reporting that they're Mustachians.

This is my issue with the question.  If you spend 25k per year (and outright own your home) that looks "Mustachian," while if you spend 50k/year and are renting I think most people would say that is "normal." 

[DreamFIRE]

With the choices provided, I have to pass on voting as I can disqualify each one as not applicable to me.

I'll take my 70 to 80% savings rate, which I had long before I ever heard of MMM.

[big_slacker]

$25k/yr is awesome. That's half a regular mortgage in my area, so needless to say it's useful to list the area you live or just go by percentage of income you live off of if you want to flex your frugal muscles for the forum.

In terms of the forum 'going soft' I think you should instead think about how awesome it is that more and more people are jumping on board and making progress.

[Zikoris]

We're in a co-op, but in Canada they actually have less rent control than the market - non-existent, really. Co-ops operate under a different set of laws, so while normal rentals are capped at a certain % per year (changes every year, but 3% is common), there is virtually no limit as to how much co-ops can increase. In the recent past, there have been 40%+ increases for some units, for example. This year we're probably looking at 20-25%, which is still manageable, but getting borderline. So I have a pretty good idea how our time here will eventually end - with a massive increase in rent that pushes us to find a cheaper place.

Does your Co-op have a min and max income requirement?  They did where I grew up in the Maritimes, so I am wondering how feasible they are for professionals with six figure salaries during their career.  It could be awesome for someone like me post FIRE, and may make my dream of moving to Victoria more acheivable now that real estate is insane there.

There's a range when you first apply (about 33K-90K-ish right now I think), but nobody cares after that, unless you're applying for subsidy (in which case there's annual income verification). The purpose of co-ops is to build stable long-term communities, so we don't kick people out for eventually making too much money - we encourage them to stay and volunteer their skills and knowledge to benefit the community.

Every co-op has different income requirements - some are really low, some really high, and some non-existent. And other requirements. Some are language-specific (here in Vancouver we have a few Francophones ones and at least one Chinese one), or specific to other groups (like artists). And each one operates independently, and has its own way of doing things. I'd say you would really need to contact the individual ones you want to move into to see if they're the right fit for you.

[FIRE Artist]

We're in a co-op, but in Canada they actually have less rent control than the market - non-existent, really. Co-ops operate under a different set of laws, so while normal rentals are capped at a certain % per year (changes every year, but 3% is common), there is virtually no limit as to how much co-ops can increase. In the recent past, there have been 40%+ increases for some units, for example. This year we're probably looking at 20-25%, which is still manageable, but getting borderline. So I have a pretty good idea how our time here will eventually end - with a massive increase in rent that pushes us to find a cheaper place.

Does your Co-op have a min and max income requirement?  They did where I grew up in the Maritimes, so I am wondering how feasible they are for professionals with six figure salaries during their career.  It could be awesome for someone like me post FIRE, and may make my dream of moving to Victoria more acheivable now that real estate is insane there.

There's a range when you first apply (about 33K-90K-ish right now I think), but nobody cares after that, unless you're applying for subsidy (in which case there's annual income verification). The purpose of co-ops is to build stable long-term communities, so we don't kick people out for eventually making too much money - we encourage them to stay and volunteer their skills and knowledge to benefit the community.

Every co-op has different income requirements - some are really low, some really high, and some non-existent. And other requirements. Some are language-specific (here in Vancouver we have a few Francophones ones and at least one Chinese one), or specific to other groups (like artists). And each one operates independently, and has its own way of doing things. I'd say you would really need to contact the individual ones you want to move into to see if they're the right fit for you.

Thanks, this is really good to know and eye opening. It might be an option for me in retirement,  it sounds like not now due to income level. It also sounds like if you have a professional job, you should get into one as a fresh out, when salaries are lower, or have to wait until you retire.  Either way, it is something people should know more about.

[DreamFIRE]

$25k/yr is awesome. That's half a regular mortgage in my area,

$25K would be a bad year for me.  My bare bones is $15K.  I'm in a LCOL area - home has been paid off for about 13 years, but it certainly wasn't the cheapest one I could find, or my bare bones would be even less.

[Zikoris]

Thanks, this is really good to know and eye opening. It might be an option for me in retirement,  it sounds like not now due to income level. It also sounds like if you have a professional job, you should get into one as a fresh out, when salaries are lower, or have to wait until you retire.  Either way, it is something people should know more about.

If you're actually an artist and not just on MMM, I would definitely recommend an artist-focused  one - they tend to be super nice (and very well decorated) and have great communal workshops and stuff. If FIRE Artist is just your handle, and you're as artistically-challenged as me, ignore this.

[FIRE Artist]

$25k/yr is awesome. That's half a regular mortgage in my area, so needless to say it's useful to list the area you live or just go by percentage of income you live off of if you want to flex your frugal muscles for the forum.

In terms of the forum 'going soft' I think you should instead think about how awesome it is that more and more people are jumping on board and making progress.

I think that this is true, and I find the 30k hang up to be puzzling and not useful. I aspire to have a similar level of middle class lifestyle as MMM, but have to get there on a single income in a different country, and different COL, in different market conditions.  Straight off there are differences that make it not valuable to compare on a dollar for dollar, or even savings rate level.

Excluding my mortgage payments, I live off of the equivalent of 34k USD/yr. not bad for where I live. I could absolutely pay off my house tomorrow, and cut back a bit more, all to say, yes, I live on 30k/yr, but who gives a fuck?

[Bucksandreds]

I drive a new SUV with a 3 year loan, live in a 4 year old 3,000 sq foot house in one of the best neighborhods of Columbus, Ohio, vacation multiple times per year and my savings rate (in terms of student loan principle(paid off this year)  plus home principle plus 401k plus savings account) is almost 60%. Central Ohio is cheap. Sometimes I don’t realize how cheap it is until I come here. I guess I’m lbym with a Mustachian savings rate. I would give that stuff up or red wine or “clean” food or about 50 other wants to FIRE in 5 years instead of 8. My advice to mustacheans is leave the coasts for 10 years and go back there when you can afford it. I’d venture I could hit 75-80% savings rate in Ohio if I gave up 95% of my wants.

[FIRE Artist]

Thanks, this is really good to know and eye opening. It might be an option for me in retirement,  it sounds like not now due to income level. It also sounds like if you have a professional job, you should get into one as a fresh out, when salaries are lower, or have to wait until you retire.  Either way, it is something people should know more about.

If you're actually an artist and not just on MMM, I would definitely recommend an artist-focused  one - they tend to be super nice (and very well decorated) and have great communal workshops and stuff. If FIRE Artist is just your handle, and you're as artistically-challenged as me, ignore this.

Full time artist is my FIRE plan, I am going to night school to get a fine art certificate and working on my artist resume and portfolio until I FIRE in 3 to 5 years. I think I would qualify then. Now, I am Jane average engineer slogging away to financial freedom.

[jsap819]

Not a true mustachian, but somewhere in the middle. We try to live as frugally as possible while enjoying things in life that bring us joy. Things like fancy cars, clothes, and gadgets doesn't bring us joy. My wife and I travel as often as we can while I like to play a casual round of golf once or twice a month. We don't eat at fine dining restaurants and prefer hole-in-the-wall type of establishments while we share our meals. As long as we set a fixed amount of savings per month, we are okay with spending the rest should we choose to do so (we don't). We just like the flexibility of it all should we have the impulse to spend/buy something. Granted, our savings rate isn't what you would call average (we save at least 50% of our monthly net income) so take this with a grain of salt.

[marble_faun]

Living below our means.  Saving a ton but not pinching every penny.

We would probably be more Mustachian if we hated our jobs.  But we actually like our jobs just fine.

Our goal is to stash away as much as we can so that we can be financially independent before before the overlords figure out a way to proletarianize our work and grind us down, as they have with so many others... and/or society becomes so oligarchical and stratified that there is no market to support what we do anymore.

[jlcnuke]

I think some people are "drowning in the details". Maybe I should have been more clear in the polling choices instead of posting examples of attributes...

1. I follow every piece of advice given by MMM religiously and live as cheaply as I can possibly do so.
2. I do a lot of the stuff discussed by MMM, but I'm still doing some stuff on purpose that is obviously not in lock-step with the "MMM teachings".
3. I save a lot of money so I'll be FI nice and early, but I also spend a lot of money, not really subscribing to a number of the suggestions/advice from MMM.
4. I save a decent amount of money but don't really follow MMM, nor am I shooting to be able to retire super early. Comfortably retiring when i start taking SS should be just fine.
5. In debt, learning to one day be in a decent place financially.

[Mezzie]

I put myself in the kinda category. I should retire a good ten years before my peers, which isn't bad considering when I got serious about investing.

[SwitchActiveDWG]

For me it's all about making deliberate spending decisions. Recognizing what you value and prioritizing where your money goes. The particulars are irrelevant.

No matter how Mustachian you might be, there's always someone who spends less than you and earns more. If you're paying attention to what you spend and what you truly value, you're doing it right.

[FIRE Artist]

I'm Mustachian, but only for the money.   

Take away all the money stuff, I don't know how mustachian I would be.  I don't like biking.  It hurts my butt.  I don't like meet-ups.  I am an introvert, and I hate small talk.  I don't like fixing things or getting my hands dirty.  I like to talk about ideas.  I don't like to implement anything.  I like to eat red meat.  I like to watch sports.  I have 3 pairs of New Balance just because I like the way they look.  I own a treadmill, which I walk on as I watch Black Mirror.  I do sometimes go on news diets. About every 10 years, I'll donate about a hundred bucks to my local radio station. 

I hate working, and I hate having to have a job, and I hate being told what to do.  I'm here because Pete's financial cookbook seems to work sufficiently well, and there are a ton of people on this forum who are more knowledgeable and more entertaining than Pete.  When i get tired of the forum again, I'll nuke all my posts and leave for 6 months. 

My kids are young and and my DW is minutes from her dream job so we're not moving for the next 10-15 years. If I didn't have the kids or the DW, I'd probably just try to get to like 400K and then move to Thailand, and see what happens.  Since I have the DW and kiddies, I'm instead going to aim for 5 more years of high-paying work; that would take me to 43 and 700/800K.  At that point, I'll try to get a job at the local library because that was my favorite job that I had in college.  I'm not really cut out for actual work.

This is the best, most honest thing I have seen on this forum in a while.

[CoffeeAndDonuts]

I should have read the thread before answering I think!

Spending is about $80k but that includes:
* an 80% ltv mortgage we just started at $25k/yr piti which allows us to extract former home equity to cash which is great when our mortgage is a fixed 30yr 3.625%.
* An $15k/year Pre-K bill for our son. Gulp.

Take those out and we're at $40k other spend. We mostly bus and bike but own two cars (2000 and 2009's) which collectively get 7000 miles for year and on hich I do most of the work. Too much dining out (3meals per week) for sure but no lunches out. Healthcare spend is pretty significant at maybe $7k. A bit too much personal allowance for each of us but then again, I hardly spend mine and have been helping family out.

Anyway, we save 50%+ and could almost fire especially if aca kicked in subsidies.

Picked kinda mustachian. I think we could reach there without much trouble if we weren't full time working. And we're working towards better.

[Slow2FIRE]

Is it more important to keep this community "hardcore" and eschew all others who fail to follow the "religion"?
-or-
Maybe, it is good to have others who modify their lives in small ways that don't make them hardcore, but is still an improvement for the environment and their personal finances.

...is the worry that the "softies" will infect the "hardcore" with their spendy ways???

If our household were earning $30K, $40K or even $50K -> we'd be very thrifty, hardcore mustachians by necessity.

Since our household income is north of $250K -> we spend roughly $50K/yr and save roughly $100K/yr for a married couple with several pets (not including child support which will be ending soon).  So, we fall into the third category.  On Bogleheads, we are considered hardcore and failing to live a full life because we don't spend more...good thing I like to participate by providing my answers without getting wrapped up in living up to the expectations at bogleheads or mmm.

[jlcnuke]

I think some people are "drowning in the details". Maybe I should have been more clear in the polling choices instead of posting examples of attributes...

1. I follow every piece of advice given by MMM religiously and live as cheaply as I can possibly do so.
2. I do a lot of the stuff discussed by MMM, but I'm still doing some stuff on purpose that is obviously not in lock-step with the "MMM teachings".
3. I save a lot of money so I'll be FI nice and early, but I also spend a lot of money, not really subscribing to a number of the suggestions/advice from MMM.
4. I save a decent amount of money but don't really follow MMM, nor am I shooting to be able to retire super early. Comfortably retiring when i start taking SS should be just fine.
5. In debt, learning to one day be in a decent place financially.

Well unless MMM is living in a cardboard box down by the river and eating government cheese I highly.doubt he (or anyone else here) is living as cheaply as they can ;-).  I live a regular middle class Millionaire Next Door kind of life on much less than MMM. However I don't have dependants and I have had many options in life that allowed me to live on less than the average person - such as the ability to use the VA for medical care for free. A bunch more too. So while living a very low cost mustachian life style allowed me to LBYM and save and tetire early, even on a low salary, I could live cheaper.

Yes, please read everything as literal as you possibly can, because that's clearly how it was meant given the context....oh wait, no, that's not right at all...

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[jeninco]

LBOM. We're not young, and we're going to keep working until our second kid is finished with college, in about 8 years (we might not exactly last that long, but it's currently the plan). If he gets partial scholarships, or decides to go someplace that's not crazy expensive, we'll stop sooner. That puts us squarely in "used-to-be-retirement age" age, but not what people currently tend to do. It also lets us retire while we're still in good enough shape to have some serious adventures.

(I know the whole "pay for college" thing is a subject of much debate, and I'm not going to discuss it here. That alone probably says where we are.)

We're still paying for a mortgage in an insanely expensive housing market, and raising two teenagers -- our food bills alone make us un-mustachian. And paying for things like soccer and music lessons put us well out of mustachian-territory.

Really, we're in it for the environmentalism. And the importance of choosing "what has value to you?" and spending on that, but not things that don't. And teaching our kids that consumerism is a big never-ending scam. We ride our bikes most places, hardly ever eat out, fix things ourselves, volunteer a bunch, build our community, and try to find work that's meaningful.

[jlcnuke]

I think some people are "drowning in the details". Maybe I should have been more clear in the polling choices instead of posting examples of attributes...

1. I follow every piece of advice given by MMM religiously and live as cheaply as I can possibly do so.
2. I do a lot of the stuff discussed by MMM, but I'm still doing some stuff on purpose that is obviously not in lock-step with the "MMM teachings".
3. I save a lot of money so I'll be FI nice and early, but I also spend a lot of money, not really subscribing to a number of the suggestions/advice from MMM.
4. I save a decent amount of money but don't really follow MMM, nor am I shooting to be able to retire super early. Comfortably retiring when i start taking SS should be just fine.
5. In debt, learning to one day be in a decent place financially.

Well unless MMM is living in a cardboard box down by the river and eating government cheese I highly.doubt he (or anyone else here) is living as cheaply as they can ;-).  I live a regular middle class Millionaire Next Door kind of life on much less than MMM. However I don't have dependants and I have had many options in life that allowed me to live on less than the average person - such as the ability to use the VA for medical care for free. A bunch more too. So while living a very low cost mustachian life style allowed me to LBYM and save and tetire early, even on a low salary, I could live cheaper.

Yes, please read everything as literal as you possibly can, because that's clearly how it was meant given the context....oh wait, no, that's not right at all...

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Joking dude! See little smiley winky face.  My point was that we all can probably live cheaper than we do. Most of us, even us lower expenses MMM/ERE type people, chose not too.

I apologize. I miss stuff like that in Tapatalk too often, so I should know to look for it by now. Sorry :(

[Cpa Cat]

My husband and I FIRE'd. He was never super Mustachian, but we've gone full-Mustache during certain periods of our lives.

After FIRE, I randomly became self employed for no good reason other than I like it.  Our assets kept escalating - in part due to over-saving and in part due to my income.

We have no kids. When we die, all of our money goes to charities involving animals and the environment. We started to wonder why we were being to frugal - so the cats could inherit more?

So we started spending more. Husband has an easier time with increased day-to-day spending, which doesn't really excite me. I'm more a big-ticket person (a screened porch, a big donation to a local nature camp for kids, converting acreage to native prairie, etc), plus services to reduce chores.

It's not a mustachian lifestyle. We track our spending and make sure our assets are still growing, but otherwise, we just do what we want.

I'm not a great influence, so I try not to post too much. But I like the community, so I hang around.

[jlcnuke]

Regarding the discussion on accounting for "normal expenses" that you don't have, I don't think such things should be included in a person's spending number (as they're not spending money on it). However, I think anytime the number's being used for something that isn't "just personal" (i.e. your case study, your information, etc), a "caveat" should be included. "I spend $2,000/year, however I live with my rich parents who provide free housing, food, utilities, cars, boats, and a private jet as well as access to their 12 houses around the world" is a far cry from "I spend $2,000/year and live wonderfully" which doesn't mention the parents supporting them in an extravagant lifestyle.

For instance, my plan is to allot ~$60k/year for spending in retirement, with a paid off house in an average cost of living area, and with the VA covering my medical expenses. Someone spending that including a mortgage ($12k/year for me currently) and covering their own health insurance and medical bills (upwards of $10-15k for an individual in my situation without subsidies) would have a significantly different "personal spending" allowance ($60k for me vs $35-40k available for them after the bills I won't have).



As of this morning, almost 40% of respondents either identify as Mustachian or kinda-Mustachian. I think that's pretty good honestly. I think if I had a lower income I'd probably shoot for being kinda-Mustachian myself. At my income, as a single guy with no kids, however, I'm content to just save enough to retire in my 40's and maintain my current lifestyle (well, likely make my lifestyle a little better as I won't be going to work so I'll definitely enjoy myself more lol). I think it would be interesting to see how income plays a role in people's choices to "fit" into each category, though I'm sure a poll or something could be set up to determine that I'm not sure how it would be done and don't have the interest in setting it up. I'd hypothesis that many people with lower incomes would be more likely to adopt more of the advice of MMM than those with higher incomes, though I'm sure there are some in every income category that would defy that.

[EmFrugal]

I answered #3 Live Below Your Means but still spend a lot only because our mortgage is astronomical (in my opinion). We live in a very HCOL area and chose a townhome near mass transit and in a really good school system because A) we value shorter, car free commutes, and B) we value high quality education for our three kids. That pushed us into a high monthly mortgage. And this is lower cost housing compared to the single family homes in our area. But seeing $3700 come out every month is rough.

Aside from that, I feel like our spending is well optimized. We have one six year old vehicle for our family of 5, I meal plan every week, and am very conscious of what purchases we make. We save around 38% of our income, which goes toward 529's, 401K's, and our mutual fund.

My DH's government salary is nice but after housing and other basic living expenses we only have the above percentage left to save. I am in the process of working on bringing in more income though so that we can increase our savings. That's the only way I can see us saving more until the little guys are done with pre-school and begin public elementary school.

[Khaetra]

This is my issue with the question.  If you spend 25k per year (and outright own your home) that looks "Mustachian," while if you spend 50k/year and are renting I think most people would say that is "normal."

This is where I'm at.  My home is paid in full and I spend around $20K/year (some years a little more depending on what needs to be done to the house, some less, so it averages out to that).

[Bateaux]

We've reached a level of NW that could easily support our not so Mustacian lifestyle.  Still working for healthcare benefits and addicted to the firehose of savings were racking up. 

[FIRE Artist]

Most of my professional colleagues think I’m a lunatic for this lifestyle. Meanwhile I think they’re nuts for owning $200K cars, especially in this climate. One guy is buying a helicopter. WTF? Sure, I’m the one making crazy choices...

This really made me laugh out loud.

[deek]

I'm Mustachian, but only for the money.   

Take away all the money stuff, I don't know how mustachian I would be.  I don't like biking.  It hurts my butt.  I don't like meet-ups.  I am an introvert, and I hate small talk.  I don't like fixing things or getting my hands dirty.  I like to talk about ideas.  I don't like to implement anything.  I like to eat red meat.  I like to watch sports.  I have 3 pairs of New Balance just because I like the way they look.  I own a treadmill, which I walk on as I watch Black Mirror.  I do sometimes go on news diets. About every 10 years, I'll donate about a hundred bucks to my local radio station. 

I hate working, and I hate having to have a job, and I hate being told what to do.  I'm here because Pete's financial cookbook seems to work sufficiently well, and there are a ton of people on this forum who are more knowledgeable and more entertaining than Pete.  When i get tired of the forum again, I'll nuke all my posts and leave for 6 months. 

My kids are young and and my DW is minutes from her dream job so we're not moving for the next 10-15 years. If I didn't have the kids or the DW, I'd probably just try to get to like 400K and then move to Thailand, and see what happens.  Since I have the DW and kiddies, I'm instead going to aim for 5 more years of high-paying work; that would take me to 43 and 700/800K.  At that point, I'll try to get a job at the local library because that was my favorite job that I had in college.  I'm not really cut out for actual work.

A lot of this is me. A couple things not so much. But good on you for stating things that many feel, but refuse to admit.

[jlcnuke]

I love sailing and would really enjoy owning a cottage - I also don't own either a boat or cottage because of the cost. Rather, I considered what it is about both experiences that I enjoy (being around water, nature, and the joy of tinkering) and have found ways to get that same joy from less expensive activities. I find that making those choices takes some introspection about my priorities and motivations. These days, I'm more interested in doing that deliberate thought work than I have been in the past when I was known to spend a fair bit on stress-relieving distractions. It wasn't that I needed spa days / fancy clothes / dinner out, they were all distractions from a life that made me unhappy. Even now that I've restructured things I still have the odd day when I'm tired and want an easy solution now, I spend to get it, even though it often results in sub-optimal happiness (for instance, delivery food, short car rides, online shopping driven by emotions or boredom).

Personally, I see a great value in scrutinizing my own spending and in using the forum to see how others have learned to give zero fucks about pretenses and appearances so that I can be inspired to do the same. Basically, if you can't enjoy life without a $200k car (or whatever it is that you're defensive about), then you should probably give some thought as to what you get from having it, and why that's important to you.

It's not about being unable to enjoy life without spending more, it's about enjoying life more with things that cost more. I enjoy my life now. I enjoyed my life when I lived on a submarine with 150 other people and spent practically nothing for months at a time (well, I still paid my rent and nominal utility costs for a vacant apartment). I enjoyed my life when I shared a small 2 bedroom apartment with a friend and my girlfriend at the time. I've enjoyed the overwhelming majority of my life, whether I was earning next to nothing or I was earning six-figures a year.

I can say unequivocally that I, personally, find my life MORE enjoyable now that I can afford more luxurious activities/things/experiences that I find enjoyable. When my vacations cost a couple tanks of gas so I could go stay with family for a week and sleep in, maybe playing some video games or swimming in my parent's pool, that was enjoyable. It wasn't nearly as enjoyable to me as my week in the Bahamas diving 3-4 times a day on an all-inclusive live-aboard dive trip however. The former cost less than $200 for the week and the latter was thousands for the same time period, but my enjoyment of the latter made it "worth it" to me. I can also afford to do those things and still save enough to retire in my 40's, so I don't see a good reason to not spend the money on those things I enjoy just to retire a year or two earlier in my 40's. It's all about balancing desires - the desire to be financially independent vs the desire to have the things/experiences/activities that more money can afford. Others may dislike working enough that they would rather forego such experiences and that's fine. I'm not going to tell anyone they have to spend $XYZ in order to have an enjoyable life.  Conversely, however, I'm not going to tell anyone that they are screwing up by, in my opinion, responsibly spending their money to have the things that bring them joy in life.

I'm not spending money to impress other people, I'm spending money on the things that bring me joy and comfort. Doing that while still saving and investing responsibly seems like a pretty good balance between the extremes of saving and spending to me. I'm not going to look down on people for choosing a different balance between savings and spending though (well, I'll look down on those that don't save at all and I probably think negatively about the far extreme savers as well, but I don't think such people are represented here in general).

[cynthia1848]

Not Mustachian.  Our savings rate is 33% but we make around 400K so we also spend a lot.  But we are at $1.3M so far at 40 and should save a lot more before we retire.

[englishteacheralex]

Our overhead is about $8000/month. So that's just not Mustachian, I guess. Depends on how you define it, maybe.

We have two kids and both of us work, so right there that's $2k out the door per month.

Mortage and HOA fees in a HCOL come to $2200 for a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 850 square foot condo in an unimpressive neighborhood.

Mustachian things:
1. Scratch cooking (but Hawaii has notoriously expensive groceries, so we still have a $700/month grocery spend)
2. Very old cars and short commutes (however, can't bike; need to do kid dropoffs/pickups and there are highways involved in our commutes)
3. $500/year on clothes for a family of four
4. Travel hacking
5. No cable, almost no entertainment that isn't free
6. Almost all furniture is from Craigslist

But the big thing we do that is not Mustachian is give away a fairly substantial amount of money despite the fact that we're not FI yet. And we don't really want to retire because we love what we do. We would like to work in a way that was more flexible and took less time. But our savings rate is only around 20%. Giving is at around 15%.

[APowers]

It seems like there's never an option for: "Spends less than $30k/yr while living in a moderately priced home in a nice neighbourhood and driving cars like clowns and still having a decent savings rate while being 'low income' (<$50k for the purposes of this forum)."

[jlcnuke]

Well put. It sounds like your vacation spending is deliberate and does bring you the value in terms of joy for the investment.

What I had hoped to convey was that spending on things that make you truly happy isn't the problem, as much as spending on the things that you think will make you happy or keep up with the Jones's. That's the sort of spending that I used to do FAR too much of, and now try to work on. Personally, I struggle a lot with "what-will-people-think-itis" and so when I see spending choices that seem extravagant, I default to assuming that they're made to maintain appearances. These assumptions and not expressing myself well when I'm feeling philosophical are ongoing challenges.

Yeah, spending money just to impress others is wasteful imo. Perhaps there are people who derive happiness from impressing others though... if so I guess it wouldn't be a complete waste? I've never been of that opinion myself. I definitely agree with the sentiment that spending money to "keep up with the Jones's" is usually a really really ridiculous idea, however prevalent it may be.

[deek]

Well put. It sounds like your vacation spending is deliberate and does bring you the value in terms of joy for the investment.

What I had hoped to convey was that spending on things that make you truly happy isn't the problem, as much as spending on the things that you think will make you happy or keep up with the Jones's. That's the sort of spending that I used to do FAR too much of, and now try to work on. Personally, I struggle a lot with "what-will-people-think-itis" and so when I see spending choices that seem extravagant, I default to assuming that they're made to maintain appearances. These assumptions and not expressing myself well when I'm feeling philosophical are ongoing challenges.

Yeah, spending money just to impress others is wasteful imo. Perhaps there are people who derive happiness from impressing others though... if so I guess it wouldn't be a complete waste? I've never been of that opinion myself. I definitely agree with the sentiment that spending money to "keep up with the Jones's" is usually a really really ridiculous idea, however prevalent it may be.

I'm not sure why, but I can't fathom how spending money to impress others could create any kind of real happiness. Such a person has to be compensating for something... Low self esteem? Overall loneliness? Massive amounts of debt? I just don't know. I honestly would like to hear from someone that is actually happy as a result of "keeping up." Maybe it would open my mind up a bit. How can one be happy if they prioritize maintaining a good image in others' eyes before maintaining a good image in their own eyes?

[jlcnuke]

Well put. It sounds like your vacation spending is deliberate and does bring you the value in terms of joy for the investment.

What I had hoped to convey was that spending on things that make you truly happy isn't the problem, as much as spending on the things that you think will make you happy or keep up with the Jones's. That's the sort of spending that I used to do FAR too much of, and now try to work on. Personally, I struggle a lot with "what-will-people-think-itis" and so when I see spending choices that seem extravagant, I default to assuming that they're made to maintain appearances. These assumptions and not expressing myself well when I'm feeling philosophical are ongoing challenges.

Yeah, spending money just to impress others is wasteful imo. Perhaps there are people who derive happiness from impressing others though... if so I guess it wouldn't be a complete waste? I've never been of that opinion myself. I definitely agree with the sentiment that spending money to "keep up with the Jones's" is usually a really really ridiculous idea, however prevalent it may be.

I'm not sure why, but I can't fathom how spending money to impress others could create any kind of real happiness. Such a person has to be compensating for something... Low self esteem? Overall loneliness? Massive amounts of debt? I just don't know. I honestly would like to hear from someone that is actually happy as a result of "keeping up." Maybe it would open my mind up a bit. How can one be happy if they prioritize maintaining a good image in others' eyes before maintaining a good image in their own eyes?

I gave up trying to understand what makes other people happy when I first learned that I had friends who enjoyed running. They'll run for hours, have to put on bandaids or some crap because the running would otherwise cause their bodies to actually blister and/or bleed. Not to mention the cramps and panting and sore muscles for days and ... well, suffice it to say that I consider running to be an activity you engage in because failure to run will cause your death, not something enjoyable. However, there are people who do it for fun... weirdos though they may be... lol

[deek]

Well put. It sounds like your vacation spending is deliberate and does bring you the value in terms of joy for the investment.

What I had hoped to convey was that spending on things that make you truly happy isn't the problem, as much as spending on the things that you think will make you happy or keep up with the Jones's. That's the sort of spending that I used to do FAR too much of, and now try to work on. Personally, I struggle a lot with "what-will-people-think-itis" and so when I see spending choices that seem extravagant, I default to assuming that they're made to maintain appearances. These assumptions and not expressing myself well when I'm feeling philosophical are ongoing challenges.

Yeah, spending money just to impress others is wasteful imo. Perhaps there are people who derive happiness from impressing others though... if so I guess it wouldn't be a complete waste? I've never been of that opinion myself. I definitely agree with the sentiment that spending money to "keep up with the Jones's" is usually a really really ridiculous idea, however prevalent it may be.

I'm not sure why, but I can't fathom how spending money to impress others could create any kind of real happiness. Such a person has to be compensating for something... Low self esteem? Overall loneliness? Massive amounts of debt? I just don't know. I honestly would like to hear from someone that is actually happy as a result of "keeping up." Maybe it would open my mind up a bit. How can one be happy if they prioritize maintaining a good image in others' eyes before maintaining a good image in their own eyes?

I gave up trying to understand what makes other people happy when I first learned that I had friends who enjoyed running. They'll run for hours, have to put on bandaids or some crap because the running would otherwise cause their bodies to actually blister and/or bleed. Not to mention the cramps and panting and sore muscles for days and ... well, suffice it to say that I consider running to be an activity you engage in because failure to run will cause your death, not something enjoyable. However, there are people who do it for fun... weirdos though they may be... lol

I am no runner by any means, but I have felt the "runner's high" that you hear people talk about. It's a real thing. Endorphins start flowing and the running becomes effortless. It is hard on your joints, which is why I don't do it often (I already have a form of arthritis at 26...sucks, but whatever). But I do it often enough to maintain decent cardiovascular shape (paired with the rowing machine). There was one time I was "feeling it" so much that I started to get scared because it felt like I was no longer controlling my own body.