Are there really any cheaper places to live?

[wageslave23]

When I was younger, I used to dream about moving to a lower cost of living country.  I traveled in Ecuador, parts of Africa, and now brother lives in Indonesia.  From what I can tell, yes rent is cheaper than the US in a lot of places but it's because the quality of the apartments and houses is lower.  If you picked up a US modern or updated 1500 sq ft single family home and dropped it in the middle of one of these "low cost" countries you would end up paying the same or more than what you would pay for a comparable house in some parts of the US. If you are fine living without AC or an updated kitchen and bath, or in a run down neighborhood, you can probably rent a place for $500 a month in some countries, but you could also find that in parts of the Midwest and southeast of our country.  So are there objectively and substantially cheaper countries to live in compared to the US Midwest and southeast?

[CheapScholar]

I haven’t traveled enough to know myself, although I do think it’s pretty cheap in parts of Eastern and Southern Europe. But, let’s be honest, for many Americans even the nicer towns and communities there will feel “run down” and not very comfortable. You make an excellent point though, in that large parts of the Midwest and southeast are incredibly low cost. I think, once many people run the math, they’ll find all these dream FIRE countries like Portugal, Thailand aren’t that much better of a bargain than say some small town in Michigan or Tennessee.

Not to say that living FIRE abroad is not a cool thing - I’m still considering it myself in small doses. But, I think one needs to seek it for the math AND the cultural experience. Otherwise, again, there are some very good options in the US.

[maizefolk]

I think it really depends on the potential FIREee's desired lifestyle.

For things whose cost is driven primarily by local labor, costs can be a LOT lower outside the USA. A good example of this is prepared food at a restaurant. For some people that's a big perk. For others who want to cook for themselves using the same ingredients they've always used, food is going to be equally or more expensive than it was back home.

For housing, a big part of the potential savings overseas doesn't come from a lower cost per square food from the widespread availability of small but still well designed and maintained apartments which aren't available in large numbers in many parts of the midwest and south. If you want a 3br/2ba house, those are much easier to find at internationally competitive prices throughout the USA outside of HCOL cities.

Similarly, cars and gas are often going to be equally or more expensive in many other countries. The potential savings enter in primarily from having access to low cost of living cities which really are designed to be liveable without a car (because most of those cities residents don't own them). Think San Francisco or Manhattan but with rent that looks more like St. Louis. Personally I don't want to live in San Francisco or Manhattan, so a lower cost option to access a similar lifestyle overseas isn't much of a perk, but some people really do enjoy that car-free high-density lifestyle.

[Fomerly known as something]

Depends. 

I was a student in Costa Rica in 1998.  One could find a equivalent house there for much cheaper.  Now in the expat areas it’s the same cost.  I blame the Americans going down there.

[Ron Scott]

There is a huge difference in the cost of living among countries.

Life expectancy is up all over the place these days. So while YMMV regarding lifestyle, cost should not be much of an issue.

The only way to get to the heart of your question is to look at what average income levels are in US dollars by country so you can see what people actually have to spend.

Here:
https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

[GodlessCommie]

I cannot speak for Thailand and Portugal, but Eastern Europe is most definitely cheaper. This includes things like groceries.

Maizefolk hit the nail on the head: it may be difficult and expensive to recreate American suburban lifestyle overseas with big houses, a car per adult, etc. But if you are happy with either urban or true rural, the savings can be massive. What I'm also finding is that in the US, it's difficult to find good small houses. They are more of the norm overseas, and it's one area of potential savings. And yes, culture is an aspect that people will value very differently.

[JupiterGreen]

I haven’t traveled enough to know myself, although I do think it’s pretty cheap in parts of Eastern and Southern Europe. But, let’s be honest, for many Americans even the nicer towns and communities there will feel “run down” and not very comfortable. You make an excellent point though, in that large parts of the Midwest and southeast are incredibly low cost. I think, once many people run the math, they’ll find all these dream FIRE countries like Portugal, Thailand aren’t that much better of a bargain than say some small town in Michigan or Tennessee.

Not to say that living FIRE abroad is not a cool thing - I’m still considering it myself in small doses. But, I think one needs to seek it for the math AND the cultural experience. Otherwise, again, there are some very good options in the US.

This is probably going to depend a lot on the area. My experience is just with the US. I can definitely say living in the LCOL areas I have lived is not worth it long-term. Having done it for a decade and a half, it will shorten my life. The services are horrible, the healthcare is subpar, and we have pollution and toxic waste because that's where it is (in LCOL areas). I have several filters in my home that were quite expensive to buy and install to try to combat this. But I breathe bad air every time I go for a walk/run (this was not known to us when we moved here. The businesses were able to keep their dirty secret with the help of local and state government until a national organization got involved. That didn't help the problem but at least now we know). Then there are the people. I live in a low mask, low vaccine state. Regardless of how organic I want my yard to be, my neighbors will use toxic stuff on their yards like round-up (a known carcinogen banned in CA). So we joined a CSA but I'm guessing the produce from there is still a little toxic. Factories (abandoned and active) have polluted the groundwater, the soil, air....etc. There are unusual cancers here. The state has been completely raped of natural resources (apologies for that term but that is exactly what they've done). There is "brain drain" and stagnation with the people who do stay which means the quality of the majority of people here is low. I could go on.

We own our home outright, that's cool. But when all is said and done, we may be able to sell our 2000 sqft house in our LCOL city for $170k. That will be a down payment for a home in the HCOL state where we want to relocate and we would gladly make that exchange tomorrow. My suggestion for anyone who is thinking about it, is for you to buy/rent in the lowest cost area of a HCOL (or MCOL) state. The state politics matter (deregulation is no joke). Those higher taxes are going to well-needed resources, safety nets, and quality of life improvements like bike trails. There is quality healthcare/dental within a drive in HCOL states. There will be more high quality people in quality areas.

My guess is LCOL countries are going to be similar with regards to resources, deregulation, healthcare etc. If you are young and healthy it might be worth giving it a go short term. But I'd really consider all the other angles.

[GodlessCommie]

My guess is LCOL countries are going to be similar with regards to resources, deregulation, healthcare etc. If you are young and healthy it might be worth giving it a go short term. But I'd really consider all the other angles.

This is true, at least in E.European countries I'm familiar with. Air sucks, although not as bad as in Asia. Mask wearing is low, vaccine uptake is low. There are good private clinics, but the pandemic overwhelmed them to a much greater degree than in the US.

[FINate]

When I was younger, I used to dream about moving to a lower cost of living country.  I traveled in Ecuador, parts of Africa, and now brother lives in Indonesia.  From what I can tell, yes rent is cheaper than the US in a lot of places but it's because the quality of the apartments and houses is lower.  If you picked up a US modern or updated 1500 sq ft single family home and dropped it in the middle of one of these "low cost" countries you would end up paying the same or more than what you would pay for a comparable house in some parts of the US. If you are fine living without AC or an updated kitchen and bath, or in a run down neighborhood, you can probably rent a place for $500 a month in some countries, but you could also find that in parts of the Midwest and southeast of our country.  So are there objectively and substantially cheaper countries to live in compared to the US Midwest and southeast?

I've often wondered about this, especially the bolded above. Most of the stories I read of people moving abroad for economic arbitrage are from VHCOL cities of the US. I suspect they could achieve almost the same savings by moving to LCOL small town USA. However, moving to car dependent middle America for someone that values a vibrant walkable city is a difficult sell, which I totally understand. It's not just about cheap or even the quality of housing, but rather the quality of life in a human-scale environment that's a fraction of what something similar would cost in the US.

[PDXTabs]

Yes, but you need to live like the locals. Go look at two bedroom flats in Guadalajara, Querétaro, Odessa, Tirana, Minsk, Medellín, Coimbra, etc. Then remember that you don't need a car in these places. Then take into account that most of these cities are their HCOL areas. Moving to Tirana or Minsk is like moving to their London. Are you willing to live in a Khrushchyovka? If not I understand, but that doesn't mean it isn't very affordable to live in one, it just means that you aren't willing to do it.

I have a family member that lives in Southern Vietnam for substantially less than the US standard deduction per year.

[GodlessCommie]

Yes, but you need to live like the locals. Go look at two bedroom flats in Guadalajara, Querétaro, Odessa, Tirana, Minsk, Medellín, Coimbra, etc. Then remember that you don't need a car in these places. Then take into account that most of these cities are their HCOL areas. Moving to Tirana or Minsk is like moving to their London. Are you willing to live in a Khrushchyovka? If not I understand, but that doesn't mean it isn't very affordable to live in one, it just means that you aren't willing to do it.

Living like a local doesn't necessarily mean sub-standard accommodations, though, or old housing stock (which is what a Khrushchevka is). Here's the first thing that popped up in a search for Odessa: a house built after 2011, all modern conveniences, walking distance to everything you might need, rent is $430/mo including furniture:

https://www.olx.ua/d/obyavlenie/sdam-dvuhkomnatnuyu-zhk-omega-evroremont-12tys-grn-pl-tolbuhina-megadom-IDNz6KE.html#8f5962e381;promoted

There's no description in English, but flip through photos - small, but a perfectly livable, modern place.

[PDXTabs]

Living like a local doesn't necessarily mean sub-standard accommodations, though, or old housing stock (which is what a Khrushchevka is). Here's the first thing that popped up in a search for Odessa: a house built after 2011, all modern conveniences, walking distance to everything you might need, rent is $430/mo including furniture:

https://www.olx.ua/d/obyavlenie/sdam-dvuhkomnatnuyu-zhk-omega-evroremont-12tys-grn-pl-tolbuhina-megadom-IDNz6KE.html#8f5962e381;promoted

There's no description in English, but flip through photos - small, but a perfectly livable, modern place.

I don't disagree, I was just trying to illistrate that you can in fact get substantially lower prices than the US midwest if you try. In practical terms a US citizen moving to Ukraine or Belarus who is looking for permanent residence would probably end up buying a flat for at least $100K USD to satisfy immigration requirements. Strictly speaking you don't need to live in it (you could rent it out), but the average American would just live in it. But I didn't want my post to be 30 pages long about all the geoarbitrage research that I've done over the years.

[Paul der Krake]

There are two overwhelming factors that contribute to what people call "cost of living"
1) labor cost
2) land cost

That's literally it. Everything else is peanuts compared to that.

Manufactured goods cost roughly the same everywhere. Yes, you went to this one store abroad once and this item cost 4 times more or 4 times less what you're used to, yes milk is like $15/gallon on this one French Polynesian island, and street food is like $2/meal in Bangkok. Still peanuts in the grand scheme of things. There are variations, but they don't account for the huge bottom lines discrepancies. The world is smaller than ever, markets are global, and ocean liners reach most of the world's population.

The median income in Kabul is something like $1k/year, the median  income in Atlanta is something like $40k/year, but you're not buying a new car or a computer for 40 times less money in Kabul. People in poor countries just do with a lot less material things.

[havregryn]

I don't know, this randomly appeared in my feed today
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-retired-at-50-went-back-to-work-at-53-then-had-a-major-medical-issue-that-left-me-unemployed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-amount-of-money-for-retirement-11642133454
I shared it with a friend and we were all like wtf, for real?

No idea if accurate or representative, but my guess is it is not housing that would be the most noticeable difference for someone coming from the US. You couldn't bankrupt yourself with healthcare expenses in Europe even if you tried.

[PDXTabs]

I happened to have this $3k house tour near Poltava, Ukraine in my YouTube history if you want to see what ~$3K USD will get you in Ukraine. But buying it won't satisfy the immigration officials if you are a US citizen. To the best of my knowledge you could transfer $100k USD into a Ukrainian corporation that you create and the do something with that corporation. Something could be buying a flat in Kyiv that you rent out. But I am not an international immigration lawyer and that isn't legal advice.

[PDXTabs]

There are two overwhelming factors that contribute to what people call "cost of living"
1) labor cost
2) land cost

That's literally it. Everything else is peanuts compared to that.

I think that you are ignoring a few things:
1. Countries with declining demographics tend to have a surplus of already constructed housing stock. Countries with rapidly growing populations have the opposite.
2. Some countries will insist that you tie up a bunch of capital to move there and others will not.
3. Some countries have exorbitant import duties and no domestic manufacture of certain products (electronics is a common one).
4. Some countries have very high taxes on cars (if that is your thing) and some do not.
5. Some countries (eg, the USA) have a culture and moneyed population that loves to buy new things that you can pick up cheap used and some do not.
6. Some countries (even rich ones) happen to be geographically close to poorer countries that let you get disproportionately cheap foodstuffs. That is, you happen to benefit from close by cheap labor because of dumb geographic luck. Strictly speaking this doesn't contradict you statement but I wanted to point it out.
7. Some countries won't let you buy land.
8. Other taxes.

[wageslave23]

So what I'm hearing is you aren't going to be able to live an American lifestyle for much cheaper than in the low cost areas of the US.  You can live more cheaply somewhere else but there will be tradeoffs, whether those tradeoffs are worth it is an individual decision.

[GodlessCommie]

So what I'm hearing is you aren't going to be able to live an American lifestyle for much cheaper than in the low cost areas of the US.  You can live more cheaply somewhere else but there will be tradeoffs, whether those tradeoffs are worth it is an individual decision.

Suburban or small, car-dependent town American lifestyle.

[maizefolk]

So what I'm hearing is you aren't going to be able to live an American lifestyle for much cheaper than in the low cost areas of the US.  You can live more cheaply somewhere else but there will be tradeoffs, whether those tradeoffs are worth it is an individual decision.

If the specific flavor of the American lifestyle that you prefer is what you find in, say, suburban St. Louis, it’s not clear to me that there are big cost savings to moving outside of the country and trying to recreate it. If the favor of American lifestyle you prefer is what you find in, say, the San Francisco, you can probably recreate the same American lifestyle much more cheaply outside the USA and probably cannot get recreate that same American lifestyle you prefer at any price in suburban St. Louis.

[Loren Ver]

That's pretty much the conclusion DH and I came to when we were looking to cut down our FIRE journey considerably.  I looked at expating and found that our midwest cost of living was really hard to beat since we had dialed it in.  With an ~1100 sq foot, 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath house that cost less than $80k outside of a major city (so we have the benefits we value, but not the drawbacks) we were doing really well.  A car is a necessity sure, long distance stuff is really spread out, but all our essentials are walk-able, bike-able, or short drive-able.  We are SLOWLY getting more walk/bike friendly, right now its really car centric.  Tradeoff.  Places that are more walk/bike have a tendency to be more peopley, and that is really hard on DH and me. 

We also like the weather here: the winter isn't too snowy and the summer isn't too hot for too long.  We also don't generally have other large scale issues: hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, floods, mud slides, fires, social unrest, etc....  Those all add to cost.

Loren

[iris lily]

I dunno.

A few years ago when we were traveling in Transylvania, I did a back of the envelope calculation of replicating my Herman, Missouri property in Transylvania. It is a simple bungalow house with 1 acre.

I’m not convinced this Transylvania real estate would be any cheaper. Romania is supposed to be pretty cheap.

In Eastern Europe if you’re near the coast it is going to be expensive Because who doesn’t like their beach front towns?but if you were renting in the countryside it would probably be fun and affordable. Transylvania was an area I really liked, and for me it would be great to be in Europe and so close to other European countries.

[Shane]

As others have said, if you're flexible and not insistent on exactly recreating a suburban US, SFH, car-centric lifestyle, there are many places outside the US, where you can live a very high-quality life for MUCH less money. Airbnb is a great way to try it out for yourself, first, before you buy anything, or even worry too much about researching visas or long term anything. If there's a city anywhere in the world, you've ever daydreamed about living, just go on Airbnb, find a nice apartment or house there, and book a month long stay. If you like it and want to stay longer, book another month or two. Most places in the world, Americans can stay up to 90 days without the hassle of visas, residence permits, or anything, really. I highly recommend doing this FIRST, before worrying, at all, about arranging anything long term.

From 2016-2018, our small family of 3 visited around a dozen countries, spending from 1-3 months in each country, usually in Airbnb apartments or houses. For example, we spent the month of March, 2018 in Athens in a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment, with a huge formal dining room, a den/office, fully equipped kitchen, giant lanai, in a great, walkable neighborhood, with coffee shops, restaurants, etc., all within easy walking distance from our apartment, reliable high-speed wifi, AC, etc, for only US$700. In April, 2018, we lived in a smaller, one-bedroom apartment, with a fold out couch where our daughter slept in the living room, in Suresnes, a suburb of Paris, for US$950. In Asia, we lived even more cheaply. Spent 2.5 months in the small UNESCO World Heritage site of Hoi An in central Vietnam, where we stayed in a wonderful, small, family-run 'homestay', with a beautiful pool right outside our door, free bicycles, delicious, cheap coffees whenever we wanted them, for only US$500/month. In Hoi An, since we had no kitchen, everyday, we ate out for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and, still, we struggled to spend >US$1200/month, total, including rent for our hotel room and all meals and activities.

When our daughter goes to college, DW and I are looking forward to slow-traveling the world again. Used to think we'd like to actually live in another country. In our experience, though, being able to book 1-3 months in a city is better than living there. After our experiences in 2016-2018, we're more of the mind that there are seasons that are great to be in some cities/countries, and there are seasons when we would prefer to be elsewhere. For example, Japan is wonderful in the spring and fall, and can also be nice in the winter, too, especially if you enjoy skiing. Whereas, I'd rather not be in Japan in the summer. YMMV.

[Paul der Krake]

There are two overwhelming factors that contribute to what people call "cost of living"
1) labor cost
2) land cost

That's literally it. Everything else is peanuts compared to that.

I think that you are ignoring a few things:
1. Countries with declining demographics tend to have a surplus of already constructed housing stock. Countries with rapidly growing populations have the opposite.
2. Some countries will insist that you tie up a bunch of capital to move there and others will not.
3. Some countries have exorbitant import duties and no domestic manufacture of certain products (electronics is a common one).
4. Some countries have very high taxes on cars (if that is your thing) and some do not.
5. Some countries (eg, the USA) have a culture and moneyed population that loves to buy new things that you can pick up cheap used and some do not.
6. Some countries (even rich ones) happen to be geographically close to poorer countries that let you get disproportionately cheap foodstuffs. That is, you happen to benefit from close by cheap labor because of dumb geographic luck. Strictly speaking this doesn't contradict you statement but I wanted to point it out.
7. Some countries won't let you buy land.
8. Other taxes.

None of this is in contradiction with anything I said. Points 1, 2, and 7 are baked into the price of land. The rest is small potatoes.

[Zamboni]

I'm looking forward to slow travel in small spaces. I like the idea of keeping my home base in the US, and just going to each country for a couple of months at a time.

The trick will be finding small furnished rentals for that length of time, although the plan would be to avoid peak tourist season, so hopefully that will work in our favor.

[PDXTabs]

There are two overwhelming factors that contribute to what people call "cost of living"
1) labor cost
2) land cost

That's literally it. Everything else is peanuts compared to that.

I think that you are ignoring a few things:
1. Countries with declining demographics tend to have a surplus of already constructed housing stock. Countries with rapidly growing populations have the opposite.
2. Some countries will insist that you tie up a bunch of capital to move there and others will not.
3. Some countries have exorbitant import duties and no domestic manufacture of certain products (electronics is a common one).
4. Some countries have very high taxes on cars (if that is your thing) and some do not.
5. Some countries (eg, the USA) have a culture and moneyed population that loves to buy new things that you can pick up cheap used and some do not.
6. Some countries (even rich ones) happen to be geographically close to poorer countries that let you get disproportionately cheap foodstuffs. That is, you happen to benefit from close by cheap labor because of dumb geographic luck. Strictly speaking this doesn't contradict you statement but I wanted to point it out.
7. Some countries won't let you buy land.
8. Other taxes.

None of this is in contradiction with anything I said. Points 1, 2, and 7 are baked into the price of land. The rest is small potatoes.

I strongly disagree that #1 is baked into the cost of land and my county tax assessor agrees with me. land != housing stock. Along those lines, according to a quick google, Italian farm land is more expensive on average than farm land in the USA while Italian housing stock is so cheap that they are practically giving it away.

I strongly disagree that #2 is baked into the cost of land. Portugal's D7 visa scheme doesn't require any capital investment (or work invite) to get a PR track immigration visa. I am not aware of a similar scheme in Belarus. Does it follow that Belarusian land is substantially (dare I say infinitely?) more expensive than Portuguese land? Of course not, immigration policy borders on arbitrary (have you seen the USA?).

I strongly disagree that the rest is small potatoes. Taxes are my single largest yearly budget line item. Depending on where I moved and what I did there I could either double my taxes or cut them in half.

[Cranky]

I see a lot of people (in another retirement group I’m in) living very inexpensively in Mexico, in what looks like very nice areas, with access to good cheap healthcare.

I do think it’s possible to live very cheaply in much of the Midwest but there are always trade offs.

[GodlessCommie]

Taxes are my single largest yearly budget line item. Depending on where I moved and what I did there I could either double my taxes or cut them in half.

This is a very good point. US foreign earned income exclusion + US foreign housing deduction + Portugal's NHR tax regime = 10 years of largely tax-free accumulation phase, if you can work remotely. Which is nowhere near small potatoes. Even if housing cost is the same, taxes alone put you way ahead.

Jurisdictions like that are not exactly common, of course. Brits, Americans, and citizens of other high-income countries flocking there do drive COL up.

[PDXTabs]

Taxes are my single largest yearly budget line item. Depending on where I moved and what I did there I could either double my taxes or cut them in half.

This is a very good point. US foreign earned income exclusion + US foreign housing deduction + Portugal's NHR tax regime = 10 years of largely tax-free accumulation phase, if you can work remotely. Which is nowhere near small potatoes. Even if housing cost is the same, taxes alone put you way ahead.

Jurisdictions like that are not exactly common, of course. Brits, Americans, and citizens of other high-income countries flocking there do drive COL up.

I believe that tax rates for self employed people in Russia are even lower than NHR rates, but it's harder to get a visa without a work invite.

Brits love Portugal and they have for a long time. Lisbon has certainly exploded with expat money, but places like Coimbra remain shockingly affordable for western Europe.

[afox]

economists have been vexxed by the problem of comparing prices of like houses to like houses also. Idiots and RE marketing uses average home prices to distort the fact that an expensive area may have expensive home prices because the homes are very nice, not just because its an expensive area, or vice versa home prices cheap in an area because the homes are lower quality. Robert Shiller came up with the home price index which compares the relative price of the SAME HOME to help solve this issue. Unfortunately there is no international home price index but if there were it would help prove or disprove your hypothesis that a similar home costs the same amount everywhere.

[mm1970]

I haven’t traveled enough to know myself, although I do think it’s pretty cheap in parts of Eastern and Southern Europe. But, let’s be honest, for many Americans even the nicer towns and communities there will feel “run down” and not very comfortable. You make an excellent point though, in that large parts of the Midwest and southeast are incredibly low cost. I think, once many people run the math, they’ll find all these dream FIRE countries like Portugal, Thailand aren’t that much better of a bargain than say some small town in Michigan or Tennessee.

Not to say that living FIRE abroad is not a cool thing - I’m still considering it myself in small doses. But, I think one needs to seek it for the math AND the cultural experience. Otherwise, again, there are some very good options in the US.

This is probably going to depend a lot on the area. My experience is just with the US. I can definitely say living in the LCOL areas I have lived is not worth it long-term. Having done it for a decade and a half, it will shorten my life. The services are horrible, the healthcare is subpar, and we have pollution and toxic waste because that's where it is (in LCOL areas).

So, what state should I avoid?

[JupiterGreen]

So, what state should I avoid?

All the ones in the south and middle? Ha. My post was simply meant to give some balance to this idea that LCOL areas are always less expensive. The numbers might look tempting but there may be other hidden costs to consider. I would simply research extremely well (on a granular level) before you make a move. Look at local and state governments too. There is usually a reason why housing is so inexpensive, be sure that reason is not a deal-breaker for you and won't end up costing you more money in the end. If you are in the wealth building stage (still working) wages are often stagnated in places like this. When all is said and done, we probably would have made more money and not had to contend with the issues in our LCOL area had we stayed in our HCOL state. But feel free to take it with a grain of salt, it's just our experience.

[Reynold]

I recall reading a Money Magazine profile many years ago about a U.S. couple that moved to South America to reduce their cost of living (I don't recall which country, but a fairly popular one like Brazil or Costa Rica).  They did another profile of them 4-5 years later, and they had moved back to the U.S., somewhere in the south.  They said housing was somewhat cheaper in South America, and if you wanted service (a maid, cook, etc.) that was a LOT cheaper, but that was balanced by frustrations of living there.  On any one trip to the grocery store, they might be out of basics like milk or bread, electrical service was more unpredictable, if you needed phone service, for example, it could be months of waiting, with no news on when something might be installed or repaired. 

The slightly higher COL in the U.S. was worth it to them to avoid some of the frustrations of living in South America.  I would not be surprised if one might run into similar issues in some places even in Europe, especially in cheaper southern Europe, if you wanted access to a really wide variety of foods, consumer goods, and so on.  I did have a Greek colleague tell me that the only way to get contracting work done on your house was to pay under the table in cash to avoid VAT taxes, and timelines were laughable.  I suspect there are tradeoffs, as JupiterGreen said, with any cheaper area to live, because if it had EVERYTHING we are looking for, people would move there until it becomes expensive. 

[GodlessCommie]

if you wanted access to a really wide variety of foods, consumer goods, and so on.

There absolutely are tradeoffs, but a really wide variety of foods isn't always available in American LCOL areas, either. Some are genuine food deserts - not sure if it's a thing even in poorest parts of Europe. Even MCOLs can be iffy.

Also, variety may be there, just not exactly same variety that we are used to. Like, I suspect that 10 types of cod is a meaningful variety for Portuguese, which is why cod has a whole section of a supermarket to it there. But to me, it's just one thing: cod, and thus no variety at all. Same with cheese or olive oil - with no ability to discern the difference, I see no variety, but I trust that it is there. And that variety may not include many American foods. 

[cannotWAIT]

I don't know, this randomly appeared in my feed today
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-retired-at-50-went-back-to-work-at-53-then-had-a-major-medical-issue-that-left-me-unemployed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-amount-of-money-for-retirement-11642133454
I shared it with a friend and we were all like wtf, for real?

No idea if accurate or representative, but my guess is it is not housing that would be the most noticeable difference for someone coming from the US. You couldn't bankrupt yourself with healthcare expenses in Europe even if you tried.

I would like to understand more about what happened to this person. If they could actually afford to retire in the first place then why was becoming disabled so financially devastating to them? How does this story prove that there is no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement? They reference their prescription drug costs--are they saying that those costs are not covered by the ACA but would have been covered by their employer? It sounds like they just didn't have enough saved before becoming disabled, which is obviously disastrous but can happen to anyone. But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement. Weird. Am I missing something?

[maizefolk]

Severe disability doesn’t just decrease your earning potential but can substantially increase your spending needs particularly if you need partial or full time help at home. Medicaid will provide some of those services but only after you have spent down your entire net worth.

But it’s not like continuing to work protects against the risk of severe disability. It’s just one of the big risks we run in life either way.

[PDXTabs]

if you wanted access to a really wide variety of foods, consumer goods, and so on.

There absolutely are tradeoffs, but a really wide variety of foods isn't always available in American LCOL areas, either. Some are genuine food deserts - not sure if it's a thing even in poorest parts of Europe. Even MCOLs can be iffy.

People who think that US supermarkets have a lot of variety haven't payed attention while traveling. In Hong Kong I can get packets of dried fish mixed with nuts at 7-Eleven. In Singapore I can get Salted Egg Fish Skin Crisps (again, at 7-Eleven). In the UK I can easily find smoked haddock. In parts of the world Oca is available. I can't find any of these things on the west coast of the USA, and I miss them all.

[wageslave23]

I don't know, this randomly appeared in my feed today
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-retired-at-50-went-back-to-work-at-53-then-had-a-major-medical-issue-that-left-me-unemployed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-amount-of-money-for-retirement-11642133454
I shared it with a friend and we were all like wtf, for real?

No idea if accurate or representative, but my guess is it is not housing that would be the most noticeable difference for someone coming from the US. You couldn't bankrupt yourself with healthcare expenses in Europe even if you tried.

I would like to understand more about what happened to this person. If they could actually afford to retire in the first place then why was becoming disabled so financially devastating to them? How does this story prove that there is no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement? They reference their prescription drug costs--are they saying that those costs are not covered by the ACA but would have been covered by their employer? It sounds like they just didn't have enough saved before becoming disabled, which is obviously disastrous but can happen to anyone. But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement. Weird. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing a competent journalist.  It's very common in the click bait era.  Come up with a good headline and focus on an emotion (usually fear but anger is a close second) and the rest of the details of the story don't really matter.

[Dicey]

I don't know, this randomly appeared in my feed today
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-retired-at-50-went-back-to-work-at-53-then-had-a-major-medical-issue-that-left-me-unemployed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-amount-of-money-for-retirement-11642133454
I shared it with a friend and we were all like wtf, for real?

No idea if accurate or representative, but my guess is it is not housing that would be the most noticeable difference for someone coming from the US. You couldn't bankrupt yourself with healthcare expenses in Europe even if you tried.

I would like to understand more about what happened to this person. If they could actually afford to retire in the first place then why was becoming disabled so financially devastating to them? How does this story prove that there is no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement? They reference their prescription drug costs--are they saying that those costs are not covered by the ACA but would have been covered by their employer? It sounds like they just didn't have enough saved before becoming disabled, which is obviously disastrous but can happen to anyone. But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement. Weird. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing a competent journalist.  It's very common in the click bait era.  Come up with a good headline and focus on an emotion (usually fear but anger is a close second) and the rest of the details of the story don't really matter.

Agreed. I saw this article and it was missing way too many important details, like numbers. Total clickbait bullshit.

[CupcakeGuru]

if you wanted access to a really wide variety of foods, consumer goods, and so on.

There absolutely are tradeoffs, but a really wide variety of foods isn't always available in American LCOL areas, either. Some are genuine food deserts - not sure if it's a thing even in poorest parts of Europe. Even MCOLs can be iffy.

People who think that US supermarkets have a lot of variety haven't payed attention while traveling. In Hong Kong I can get packets of dried fish mixed with nuts at 7-Eleven. In Singapore I can get Salted Egg Fish Skin Crisps (again, at 7-Eleven). In the UK I can easily find smoked haddock. In parts of the world Oca is available. I can't find any of these things on the west coast of the USA, and I miss them all.

I live in a very diverse area in the South. Have you tried Hmart. They ship.

[clarkfan1979]

When I was younger, I used to dream about moving to a lower cost of living country.  I traveled in Ecuador, parts of Africa, and now brother lives in Indonesia.  From what I can tell, yes rent is cheaper than the US in a lot of places but it's because the quality of the apartments and houses is lower.  If you picked up a US modern or updated 1500 sq ft single family home and dropped it in the middle of one of these "low cost" countries you would end up paying the same or more than what you would pay for a comparable house in some parts of the US. If you are fine living without AC or an updated kitchen and bath, or in a run down neighborhood, you can probably rent a place for $500 a month in some countries, but you could also find that in parts of the Midwest and southeast of our country.  So are there objectively and substantially cheaper countries to live in compared to the US Midwest and southeast?

In July 2021 my dad bought a 4 bed/2 bath home (no garage) in ELY, MN for 82K. It needed a new roof (10K) and he is going to put another 8K into it fixing it up and making it look nice. It's 1500 sq. ft. with another 500 sq. ft. unfinished basement. It really cold in the winter, but it's totally amazing 3 months out of the year and decent another 3 months out of the year. For a second home to live in 6 months/year (April 15 to Oct 15), it's pretty amazing and not that expensive.

[joe189man]

I love the idea of this thread, where can a family live or relocate to that can cut their cost of living. I ponder this often and often find that its easier to stay where we are. Quality schools are high on my list of must haves and any potential location must have good to great schools. This often leads to pockets of high cost with in a traditionally lower cost areas, at least with in the USA. Often the high cost is equal to where we are now, especially with the real estate price run up in the last 2 years. Where is my lake lot 4 bed/3 bath home with in 2 hours of a ski resort with great schools and fast internet service. i will find the unicorn

[PDXTabs]

I believe that Sri Lanka just launched the port city of Colombo which will includes "a preferential tax system with zero tax on personal income, [and] remuneration in foreign currency (FC)."

[lutorm]

Even of cost of living, on average, is similar for a similar lifestyle, I think there's a sort of "societal arbitrage" that can be exploited by moving around, because different societies allocate costs differently.

For example, in the US taxes are relatively low but you pay for things like healthcare directly, thus you need to keep paying for this even if you don't have any income. Sweden has high income taxes (and capital gains, to some extent) that fund the social safety net, the universal healthcare system, etc.  On average, the cost of living appears roughly the same in the US and Sweden. If you become a resident of Sweden, however, with no income the high income tax doesn't matter and you're still covered by the healthcare system thereby eliminating the huge uncertainty pertaining to health care and end of life care in the US. The high salaries in the US make it more attractive during the accumulation phase, but in FIRE I believe it would be quite advantageous to live in Sweden.

[DaTrill]

When I was younger, I used to dream about moving to a lower cost of living country.  I traveled in Ecuador, parts of Africa, and now brother lives in Indonesia.  From what I can tell, yes rent is cheaper than the US in a lot of places but it's because the quality of the apartments and houses is lower.  If you picked up a US modern or updated 1500 sq ft single family home and dropped it in the middle of one of these "low cost" countries you would end up paying the same or more than what you would pay for a comparable house in some parts of the US. If you are fine living without AC or an updated kitchen and bath, or in a run down neighborhood, you can probably rent a place for $500 a month in some countries, but you could also find that in parts of the Midwest and southeast of our country.  So are there objectively and substantially cheaper countries to live in compared to the US Midwest and southeast?

Depends on what you buy.  CBDs in any urban areas are going to be more expensive than most rural US areas.  If you are a surfer, your choices in the US are SoCal or Hawaii, so big bucks, while Indo or Costa Rica are going to cost 2%-10% for US surf spots.  I lived in a CBD of a very poor 3rd world country and rent was more there 10 years ago than rural US today.  As soon as travel restrictions are lifted, I will be locating to beach location at 2%-5% cost of Hawaii and better for my water sport.     

[stoaX]

I don't know, this randomly appeared in my feed today
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-retired-at-50-went-back-to-work-at-53-then-had-a-major-medical-issue-that-left-me-unemployed-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-amount-of-money-for-retirement-11642133454
I shared it with a friend and we were all like wtf, for real?

No idea if accurate or representative, but my guess is it is not housing that would be the most noticeable difference for someone coming from the US. You couldn't bankrupt yourself with healthcare expenses in Europe even if you tried.

I would like to understand more about what happened to this person. If they could actually afford to retire in the first place then why was becoming disabled so financially devastating to them? How does this story prove that there is no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement? They reference their prescription drug costs--are they saying that those costs are not covered by the ACA but would have been covered by their employer? It sounds like they just didn't have enough saved before becoming disabled, which is obviously disastrous but can happen to anyone. But that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a safe amount of money for retirement. Weird. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing a competent journalist.  It's very common in the click bait era.  Come up with a good headline and focus on an emotion (usually fear but anger is a close second) and the rest of the details of the story don't really matter.

Well said!   This is only one example of articles and discussions I have read that bemoan the high cost of health care in the US, particularly for the uninsured, without even a passing mention of the ACA.  They act like there are only 3 choices: employment based coverage, Medicare, or financial ruin. 

[Hula Hoop]

Imo you have to be careful to compare apples to apples.  I'm from NYC and I prefer to live in the center of a big city.  I moved here to the center of a city in Italy from NYC.   The cost of living here is something like a quarter or a third of a similar area in NYC. However, salaries here are also much lower.  This doesn't matter so much to me though as i have a relatively high paid job.  In NYC i had no life. Working crazy hours whereas here its 40 hours a week.

Anyway i know several foreigners here from HCOL cities like NYC, London, san Francisco.  Living here is like living in our home cities back when we were growing up -when rents were normal even in the center and normal people could afford to live there. My old neighbourhood in NYC is now full of wealthy people unfortunately.

Yes i could move to a small town and live more cheaply but i don't want to do that.

[Shane]

I'm from NYC and I prefer to live in the center of a big city...
Yes i could move to a small town and live more cheaply but i don't want to do that.

We've also really enjoyed living in big cities. It seemed to me, though, that we spent most of our time, not in the entire city, but in particular neighborhoods, which felt kind of like smallish towns of their own. What I like about living in huge cities is the convenience of being able to walk outside our apartment building and easily access things we enjoy: markets, street food, restaurants, bars, cafes, book stores, theaters, street performances, interesting people, bike paths, etc. Before settling in the small town where we live now, we spent a lot of time thinking about how we might be able to create a FIRE life for ourselves in places we love, like NYC, Boston, Seattle, SF, Honolulu, Tokyo, etc. No matter how we ran the numbers, though, it just seemed like it was going to be a stretch, financially, which was going to create stress and end up making us miserable, forcing us to go back to work or, probably both. As it is, I feel like our current small town neighborhood has pretty much everything we could've hoped for in a larger city, but the cost of living here is easily with our budget, and actual big cities like Philadelphia, NYC, and D.C. are just a short walk to our nearby Amtrak station, and a 2 or 3 hours' train ride away. We almost spent a month in Rome in spring, 2018, but ended up in Athens instead. Looking forward to visiting someday. Sounds like a nice life you've got there. Enjoy!

[dcheesi]

I recall reading a Money Magazine profile many years ago about a U.S. couple that moved to South America to reduce their cost of living (I don't recall which country, but a fairly popular one like Brazil or Costa Rica).  They did another profile of them 4-5 years later, and they had moved back to the U.S., somewhere in the south.  They said housing was somewhat cheaper in South America, and if you wanted service (a maid, cook, etc.) that was a LOT cheaper, but that was balanced by frustrations of living there.  On any one trip to the grocery store, they might be out of basics like milk or bread, electrical service was more unpredictable, if you needed phone service, for example, it could be months of waiting, with no news on when something might be installed or repaired. 

The slightly higher COL in the U.S. was worth it to them to avoid some of the frustrations of living in South America.  I would not be surprised if one might run into similar issues in some places even in Europe, especially in cheaper southern Europe, if you wanted access to a really wide variety of foods, consumer goods, and so on.  I did have a Greek colleague tell me that the only way to get contracting work done on your house was to pay under the table in cash to avoid VAT taxes, and timelines were laughable.  I suspect there are tradeoffs, as JupiterGreen said, with any cheaper area to live, because if it had EVERYTHING we are looking for, people would move there until it becomes expensive.

This sounds similar to a family member's experience living in Vieques, Puerto Rico. Still a US territory, but with a lot of the same issues, compounded by severe underdevelopment on that island in particular (even compared to the "big island" of PR). They eventually got sick of unreliable utilities, poor infrastructure, having to take a ferry to shop for anything that wasn't in the small local grocery, etc. Plus weird local politics that became increasingly hostile to non-locals over time.

[Hula Hoop]

I'm from NYC and I prefer to live in the center of a big city...
Yes i could move to a small town and live more cheaply but i don't want to do that.

We've also really enjoyed living in big cities. It seemed to me, though, that we spent most of our time, not in the entire city, but in particular neighborhoods, which felt kind of like smallish towns of their own. What I like about living in huge cities is the convenience of being able to walk outside our apartment building and easily access things we enjoy: markets, street food, restaurants, bars, cafes, book stores, theaters, street performances, interesting people, bike paths, etc. Before settling in the small town where we live now, we spent a lot of time thinking about how we might be able to create a FIRE life for ourselves in places we love, like NYC, Boston, Seattle, SF, Honolulu, Tokyo, etc. No matter how we ran the numbers, though, it just seemed like it was going to be a stretch, financially, which was going to create stress and end up making us miserable, forcing us to go back to work or, probably both. As it is, I feel like our current small town neighborhood has pretty much everything we could've hoped for in a larger city, but the cost of living here is easily with our budget, and actual big cities like Philadelphia, NYC, and D.C. are just a short walk to our nearby Amtrak station, and a 2 or 3 hours' train ride away. We almost spent a month in Rome in spring, 2018, but ended up in Athens instead. Looking forward to visiting someday. Sounds like a nice life you've got there. Enjoy!

I have to admit that part of the reason it works here is that we don't own a car. But living here is very cheap compared to the US. We don't need private health insurance, college for our kids will be inexpensive and food and alcohol are cheap here. Our mortgage will also be paid off soon.

[InvincibleChutzpah]

I think that when it comes to geographic arbitrage, housing is not the only factor. One needs to consider total quality of life. During a similar discussion in a thread I started, I pointed out that the cost of living in Valencia, Spain is the same as that of Lubbock, Texas. So yes, one could stay in the US, get comparable housing and daily spending. However, consider everything else a hometown has to offer other than housing. Valencia is the third largest city in Spain, the biggest aquarium in Europe, a world class art culture, amazing beaches, and abundant classical architecture. It's only a short jump to the rest of Europe, Lubbock, in contrast, is a dry county (no alcohol) and has tumbleweeds and a Buddy Holly museum. It's only a short jump to... Oklahoma. Also, as a queer woman in a interracial marriage, a diverse city is simply safer than small town America. I've been to both Lubbock and Valencia several times (my sister went to school in Lubbock and I used to live in Europe). I know which one I'd rather live in.

I guess for me, retirement isn't JUST about cost. I'm retiring to travel and explore the world. Considering that cost of living is the same, Valencia (or any other smaller city in Spain) would meet my needs better than a comparable US town. Obviously, that doesn't hold true for everyone. We all have different visions of what our retirements will look like. Where you retire needs to meet your budget, but also your plans for how you are going to spend the rest of your life.