Are new converts to the FIRE movement still showing up?

[Dicey]

Because workers have more leverage than they did a few years ago, young workers aren't pushed around as easily by "the man" as they were in say, 2010.  At that time, a lot of people felt lucky to have a job, even if they had to eat shit sandwiches.  Result is, presumably, less overall desire to ER.  Might be better to just quit and find another gig.

That said, FI, and before that FU Money are huge aspects of the FIRE community.

You don't have to hate your job to be interested in financial independence.

There is a forumite who was motivated to achieve FI because her husband's field was notorious for shitcanning men as they approached their fifties. He wasn't particularly interested in FIRE, but she had read the tea leaves and wanted to be prepared. When his job vaporized, they were fine. Financial Independence is never a bad thing.

[Metalcat]

Because workers have more leverage than they did a few years ago, young workers aren't pushed around as easily by "the man" as they were in say, 2010.  At that time, a lot of people felt lucky to have a job, even if they had to eat shit sandwiches.  Result is, presumably, less overall desire to ER.  Might be better to just quit and find another gig.

That said, FI, and before that FU Money are huge aspects of the FIRE community.

You don't have to hate your job to be interested in financial independence.

There is a forumite who was motivated to achieve FI because her husband's field was notorious for shitcanning men as they approached their fifties. He wasn't particularly interested in FIRE, but she had read the tea leaves and wanted to be prepared. When his job vaporized, they were fine. Financial Independence is never a bad thing.

Yep, had I not found MMM early in my career, I would have been FUCKED. Like, utterly life ruining level fucked.

FI is about sooooo much more than just changing your potential retirement date.

[maizefolk]

Lol. True. As an old timer I fondly remember the lower income/asset crowd who came over from ERE when it past the torch to MMM looking for FIRE ideas. A lot of people wanting to emulate MMMs lifestyle of living on $25k a year, frugality, badassery, salads, barbells, bikes, and (craft) beers. Many left when the forums changed and new lower income and asset  people probably didn't bother to get involved with the forums due to seeing so many high earners.  IDK but I know I use to recommend to forums to others like me but don't now. However I do plug the MMM blog posts - especially the older ones.

Didn't this whole thing (mmm) start with a high earner though? I have known lots of people that live on low spending (because they have low money) but not too many that live like a dirtbag (I say that with respect to all dirtbags!) while making over $100k.

Yes but ERE started with a guy who hit FI while being a grad student/postdoc -- below median incomes -- because he'd figured out a way to live on $7,000/year (probably more like $10,000 in today's dollars) and be happy doing it.

[Dicey]

I just stumbled on this post. I think there's hope for the future...

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mini-money-mustaches/teenage-mustachian-in-spendy-household-advice/msg0/?topicseen#new

[maizefolk]

I think he did a great job of setting the "overton window" of FIRE at the time. People would say you couldn't possibly live on $24,000/year (what MMM was spending at the time) and we'd be able to say that's more than 3x what Jacob spends.

I don't think I'd be happy living in a van down by the river either, but reading about Jacob's experience doing so helped me a lot when I was first struggling through the unsettling realization that I was making about $24k/year and couldn't think of a way to spend extra income that would make me happier.

Now that both of them have mostly shifted their focus away from writing on the internet there don't seem to be as many big public personas pushing out the lower bound of how much money people think they need to spend while still leading happy and fulfilling lives.

[ender]

Because workers have more leverage than they did a few years ago, young workers aren't pushed around as easily by "the man" as they were in say, 2010.  At that time, a lot of people felt lucky to have a job, even if they had to eat shit sandwiches.  Result is, presumably, less overall desire to ER.  Might be better to just quit and find another gig.

Weird, I experience the opposite in folks I know - a strong job market causes people to have more opportunities and still realize making more money/career moves ultimately doesn't change their life, so they find themselves looking for Jesus FIRE as a way to reconcile some level of absurdity of life.

A huge part of FIRE and the process is not about the "ER" part but rather being in control of your destiny. Finances are a major but not compete portion of that in our lives.

[ixtap]

Because workers have more leverage than they did a few years ago, young workers aren't pushed around as easily by "the man" as they were in say, 2010.  At that time, a lot of people felt lucky to have a job, even if they had to eat shit sandwiches.  Result is, presumably, less overall desire to ER.  Might be better to just quit and find another gig.

That said, FI, and before that FU Money are huge aspects of the FIRE community.

You don't have to hate your job to be interested in financial independence.

This is a good point. Having financial resilience is always good given the uncertainties of life.

The main people I refer to MMM are new graduate medical professionals who have zero interest in retiring after a decade+ of training to do their dream jobs.

FIRE is more about not *needing* to work, what people do after that point is purely a lifestyle preference.

My dentist and primary doctor both work part time. Makes appts difficult, especially with our travel schedule, but I can hardly fault them since I haven't worked in years and DH is now very part-time.

[mistymoney]

Because workers have more leverage than they did a few years ago, young workers aren't pushed around as easily by "the man" as they were in say, 2010.  At that time, a lot of people felt lucky to have a job, even if they had to eat shit sandwiches.  Result is, presumably, less overall desire to ER.  Might be better to just quit and find another gig.

Weird, I experience the opposite in folks I know - a strong job market causes people to have more opportunities and still realize making more money/career moves ultimately doesn't change their life, so they find themselves looking for Jesus FIRE as a way to reconcile some level of absurdity of life.

A huge part of FIRE and the process is not about the "ER" part but rather being in control of your destiny. Finances are a major but not compete portion of that in our lives.

This resonates with me. FIRE of course is a choice, as are all career and lifestyle decisions. When times are tough, jobs are hard to come by, pay isn't flexible like today - it puts you more in survival mode, than I am driving the bus, where do I want to go mode.

[Chris Pascale]

Forums like this are pretty old-school. I imagine there's a lot of TikTok stuff about FIRE, and whatever replaces TikTok next year - maybe it'll be called micro-second.

[mistymoney]

Forums like this are pretty old-school. I imagine there's a lot of TikTok stuff about FIRE, and whatever replaces TikTok next year - maybe it'll be called micro-second.

I checked. Yep - a lot of stuff on tiktok.

[LonerMatt]

The conversation we're having is sort of circling an assumption that new members will be young, which is not necessarily true.

However, one reason I think young people may not been enamoured with FIRE is that a lot of folks are very, very annoyed at capitalism's failures and the ways they are often foisted on younger generations. You have young adults looking at sky high real estate, wage stagnation, inflation, environmental crisis, money in politics reaching peak issues, attention economy data farming, Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc.

If you're pissed off, or worn out, by that stuff yes - we here know that financial resilience is amazing at coping and being ok - however, I can also understand that there are a lot of folks that feel worn out and just don't want to come into a space where people are trying to work out if their 2 rental properties and 1m portfolio are enough...

[darkskys]

I'm pretty sure I read that forums in general are dying out. It's all about the bigger social media platforms now, so I would expect newcomers to the FIRE movement to gravitate to Reddit subs. I don't think Gen Z does old school forums.

I would have to go check out the FIRE scene there to see if it's booming, and I'm not going to do that because I find Reddit a miserable and unpleasant place to interact.

I really don’t like Reddit. Seems overly hostile and has a tone of misery and self defeat. I had an instant mental health boost when I stopped visiting there.

[Metalcat]

I'm pretty sure I read that forums in general are dying out. It's all about the bigger social media platforms now, so I would expect newcomers to the FIRE movement to gravitate to Reddit subs. I don't think Gen Z does old school forums.

I would have to go check out the FIRE scene there to see if it's booming, and I'm not going to do that because I find Reddit a miserable and unpleasant place to interact.

I really don’t like Reddit. Seems overly hostile and has a tone of misery and self defeat. I had an instant mental health boost when I stopped visiting there.

I don't have an account there, but every once in awhile I will look something up because there is a lot of useful information there, but I almost always feel icky after reading a Reddit thread.

[YttriumNitrate]

...Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc....

So I was curious as to how much he actually owned, and it looks like it's less than 0.2%. I used 35-44 as a stand in for Millennials (people 1978-1987 rather than 1981-1996 which is the more commonly used definition). Zuckerburg was born in 1984. Among that age group, the average net worth is $436,200 [1] and there are at little over 45 million people in that age range [2]. Multiplying those together yields $19 trillion dollars total net worth in that age group which sounds about right with the US household networth being about $150 trillion [3]. Zuck's net worth is about 33 billion [4], so he owns about 0.2% of the wealth in that age range.

[JupiterGreen]

Forums like this are pretty old-school. I imagine there's a lot of TikTok stuff about FIRE, and whatever replaces TikTok next year - maybe it'll be called micro-second.

Ha! So true, thanks for the laugh :) It's interesting that they all know TicToc is Chinese malware yet they keep interacting with it for the views and upvote dopamine hit

[maizefolk]

...Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc....

So I was curious as to how much he actually owned, and it looks like it's less than 0.2%. I used 35-44 as a stand in for Millennials (people 1978-1987 rather than 1981-1996 which is the more commonly used definition). Zuckerburg was born in 1984. Among that age group, the average net worth is $436,200 [1] and there are at little over 45 million people in that age range [2]. Multiplying those together yields $19 trillion dollars total net worth in that age group which sounds about right with the US household networth being about $150 trillion [3]. Zuck's net worth is about 33 billion [4], so he owns about 0.2% of the wealth in that age range.

You did the math.

I think the $436,200 number for average net worth might be calculated on a household level rather than an individual (it's hard to tell for sure what the website is saying). If so that would be multiplied by the number of 35-44 households rather than the number of individuals. But even if every single 35-44 year old was married or co-habiting (they're not) that would only bring Zuckerberg's net worth up to 0.4% of the total.

[GuitarStv]

...Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc....

So I was curious as to how much he actually owned, and it looks like it's less than 0.2%. I used 35-44 as a stand in for Millennials (people 1978-1987 rather than 1981-1996 which is the more commonly used definition). Zuckerburg was born in 1984. Among that age group, the average net worth is $436,200 [1] and there are at little over 45 million people in that age range [2]. Multiplying those together yields $19 trillion dollars total net worth in that age group which sounds about right with the US household networth being about $150 trillion [3]. Zuck's net worth is about 33 billion [4], so he owns about 0.2% of the wealth in that age range.

You did the math.

I think the $436,200 number for average net worth might be calculated on a household level rather than an individual (it's hard to tell for sure what the website is saying). If so that would be multiplied by the number of 35-44 households rather than the number of individuals. But even if every single 35-44 year old was married or co-habiting (they're not) that would only bring Zuckerberg's net worth up to 0.4% of the total.

Still seems like ridiculous money.

1/45,000,000 owns 1/250th of the wealth.

[maizefolk]

...Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc....

So I was curious as to how much he actually owned, and it looks like it's less than 0.2%. I used 35-44 as a stand in for Millennials (people 1978-1987 rather than 1981-1996 which is the more commonly used definition). Zuckerburg was born in 1984. Among that age group, the average net worth is $436,200 [1] and there are at little over 45 million people in that age range [2]. Multiplying those together yields $19 trillion dollars total net worth in that age group which sounds about right with the US household networth being about $150 trillion [3]. Zuck's net worth is about 33 billion [4], so he owns about 0.2% of the wealth in that age range.

You did the math.

I think the $436,200 number for average net worth might be calculated on a household level rather than an individual (it's hard to tell for sure what the website is saying). If so that would be multiplied by the number of 35-44 households rather than the number of individuals. But even if every single 35-44 year old was married or co-habiting (they're not) that would only bring Zuckerberg's net worth up to 0.4% of the total.

Still seems like ridiculous money.

1/45,000,000 owns 1/250th of the wealth.

Should be 2/45,000,000 surely? I believe Priscilla Chan is also a millennial.

[dcheesi]

I'm pretty sure I read that forums in general are dying out. It's all about the bigger social media platforms now, so I would expect newcomers to the FIRE movement to gravitate to Reddit subs. I don't think Gen Z does old school forums.

I would have to go check out the FIRE scene there to see if it's booming, and I'm not going to do that because I find Reddit a miserable and unpleasant place to interact.

I really don’t like Reddit. Seems overly hostile and has a tone of misery and self defeat. I had an instant mental health boost when I stopped visiting there.

I don't have an account there, but every once in awhile I will look something up because there is a lot of useful information there, but I almost always feel icky after reading a Reddit thread.

Honestly, I think having an account is key to a good Reddit experience. That way you can choose what content shows up in your "home" feed.

The default "popular" feed can be as toxic as any other popularity/algorithm driven site. But there are plenty of good, well moderated subreddits out there as well, and you can curate your "home" feed to be much nicer. (If nothing else, you can load up on cute-pet-picture groups to counter any other content you might come across :)

[sonofsven]

The conversation we're having is sort of circling an assumption that new members will be young, which is not necessarily true.

However, one reason I think young people may not been enamoured with FIRE is that a lot of folks are very, very annoyed at capitalism's failures and the ways they are often foisted on younger generations. You have young adults looking at sky high real estate, wage stagnation, inflation, environmental crisis, money in politics reaching peak issues, attention economy data farming, Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc.

If you're pissed off, or worn out, by that stuff yes - we here know that financial resilience is amazing at coping and being ok - however, I can also understand that there are a lot of folks that feel worn out and just don't want to come into a space where people are trying to work out if their 2 rental properties and 1m portfolio are enough...

I agree, it could be off-putting to those who are just starting out and come from a low to mid income background. Ironically those folks could get so much useful knowledge (yes, even from those with multiple rentals and large portfolios) if they do stick around.
I think it's great that smart folks making a couple hundred K/year figured out that if they save most of it and invest the rest (especially during such an awesome run up) that they could retire very early, but that's only workable if you're in that high income range. For those that aren't it's the frugality and controlling spending that is the most important message.
Not everyone will make the big bucks, but everyone can learn to spend less than they make. And from that small lesson take the next step and optimize the savings, not mindless consumption.

[Le Poisson]

I haven't read many replies to this thread, but here are my observations based on a couple get togethers in the past year.

Our FIREscape event held in Ontario Canada this past year drew from the forums, Facebook, and other online communities. At that event we had about 30% of the attendees returning from previous FIREscape events (Camp Mustache Toronto). The majority were from Toronto/Ottawa/US Northeast. The attendees were a broad spread of ages right from "still in College/newlywed" to comfortably "retired seniors." Similarly, net worths around the room ranged from Many millions to many thousands. A lot of the folks attending had just only discovered MMM and the FIRE movement. This event is a three day weekend that can be attended without missing work, and I believe draws both folks aspiring to FIRE as well as those who have achieved the goal.

Conversely, at the Moab meetup, most of the folks were older with the youngest attendees being (a guess) in their late 30's. Everyone there seemed to be on one financial forum or another, and had a comfortable net worth. Many were retirees simply because you had to be in order to get a week away from the office to enjoy the event. Folks can attend this as a weekend event without missing work, but it is a big commitment in terms of travel logistics, planning and gear. It makes more sense to do for folks who either have vacation time available, or aren't working.

Both events were amazing and offered chances to network with others, make life-changing decisions, and come out the other side a better person, but to the poi8nt of this thread, they both show that the demographic interested in FIRE is very broad-based and includes a large group of new and old, and that fresh takes on the idea are still coming to us.

[GuitarStv]

...Zuckerberg owns like 50% of all milenial wealth, inequality, etc....

So I was curious as to how much he actually owned, and it looks like it's less than 0.2%. I used 35-44 as a stand in for Millennials (people 1978-1987 rather than 1981-1996 which is the more commonly used definition). Zuckerburg was born in 1984. Among that age group, the average net worth is $436,200 [1] and there are at little over 45 million people in that age range [2]. Multiplying those together yields $19 trillion dollars total net worth in that age group which sounds about right with the US household networth being about $150 trillion [3]. Zuck's net worth is about 33 billion [4], so he owns about 0.2% of the wealth in that age range.

You did the math.

I think the $436,200 number for average net worth might be calculated on a household level rather than an individual (it's hard to tell for sure what the website is saying). If so that would be multiplied by the number of 35-44 households rather than the number of individuals. But even if every single 35-44 year old was married or co-habiting (they're not) that would only bring Zuckerberg's net worth up to 0.4% of the total.

Still seems like ridiculous money.

1/45,000,000 owns 1/250th of the wealth.

Should be 2/45,000,000 surely? I believe Priscilla Chan is also a millennial.

Does she have control of the money?  I have never looked up how Zuckerberg's personal finances work.

[Telecaster]

ETA: talking about Reddit: I actually spend a lot of time on Reddit, but I've never gotten into r/financialindependence or related subs. I guess I find old-school forums better for certain things?

I've found there is a lot of noise and not much signal on Reddit FIRE forums. 

[LonerMatt]

My bad on Zuckerberg - this article suggests 2% of US millennial wealth. The broader point, that younger people may be completely disenchanted financially, may have some support in the article. That was the broader point I was making: https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/08/11/millennials-are-the-largest-workforce-and-the-least-wealthy-why-politics/

[ender]

ETA: talking about Reddit: I actually spend a lot of time on Reddit, but I've never gotten into r/financialindependence or related subs. I guess I find old-school forums better for certain things?

I've found there is a lot of noise and not much signal on Reddit FIRE forums.

"I make $250k/year in a medium cost of living area and FIRE'd after 15 years, AMA"

[Fomerly known as something]

I just have to say 1978 is not a millennial.  Explanation points and all caps.

[Chris Pascale]

ETA: talking about Reddit: I actually spend a lot of time on Reddit, but I've never gotten into r/financialindependence or related subs. I guess I find old-school forums better for certain things?

I've found there is a lot of noise and not much signal on Reddit FIRE forums.

"I make $250k/year in a medium cost of living area and FIRE'd after 15 years, AMA"

Do you eat eggs and read non-fiction books? [once I find out, I'll replicate to have what you have]

[maizefolk]

My bad on Zuckerberg - this article suggests 2% of US millennial wealth. The broader point, that younger people may be completely disenchanted financially, may have some support in the article. That was the broader point I was making: https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/08/11/millennials-are-the-largest-workforce-and-the-least-wealthy-why-politics/

That's using an estimate of millennial wealth from 2019 and an estimate of Zuckerberg's wealth from last year.

Zuckerburg's net worth has declined 2/3rds in the last year, and the wealth of millennials as a generation has doubled in the last three.

[LonerMatt]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

[Dicey]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

[maizefolk]

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

You may well be right. It's hard for me to relate to but that doesn't make it an invalid description of others' mindsets.

Back when I first got interested in the FIRE movement we were in the aftermath of the great recession/GFC. I remember the occupy wall street protests and all of its local spin outs. Police pepper spraying college students protesting bailouts for bankers. It wasn't an interest born of feeling collected to capitalism or positive about capitalism. It was born of feeling like the world was falling apart.

Others mileage may vary though.

[LonerMatt]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

[ixtap]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

That is where the ERE forums can get weird. Same poster with back to back topics regarding bringing down capitalism and being a landlord.

[Metalcat]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

[Metalcat]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

That is where the ERE forums can get weird. Same poster with back to back topics regarding bringing down capitalism and being a landlord.

Yep, that's what it's like having values that oppose the dominant system. You have to function within it somehow.

Perhaps for some, owning a property and providing a place to live is a more palatable way to make money than to invest in equities. Who knows.

Either way, you're pretty much stuck participating in capitalism even if you take issue with it.

It's the same way I'm very vocal about public transit and bike infrastructure, but I drive everywhere because those systems don't work for my needs...hence being vocal about them.

[JupiterGreen]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

This is true. And I think there is some truth to the anti-capitalist statement of younger adults. If you are 40ish or older (at least in the US), your experience is radically and concretely (as in real numbers) different. The cost to get educated and live during those "entry level years" has skyrocketed. I came from poverty, and worked hard at many jobs yadda yadda, but I don't underestimate the power that small things like lower college tuition and better financial aid had on my chances for upwardly mobility. It's simply not the same world and we (those of us 40 and over) cannot compare our experiences, however bad, to people in their 20s and 30s today. They are very disillusioned by capitalism for a good reason. Plus they aren't planning for the future because they don't think they will have one with global warming being such a threat to them and the planet. I work with a good number of the younger adult US population so I get some sense of their mindset. They are beat down, it's sad. We should try to help where we can so they can have some semblance of a life.

[GuitarStv]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

Capitalism always gets the lion's share of credit for what's really a partnership between it and socialism.

Through history, capitalism has been just fine with slavery.  If you're black and living in America . . . you can thank socialist regulation of markets for the freedom that allowed you to generate wealth.  Have you ever used a public road to get to work or sell something?  Were you educated in a public school system?  Have you benefitted from lowered crime due to public policing?  Was your country protected by a publicly funded military?  Is your air, water, and land kept relatively clean by regulation of industry that would otherwise profit from polluting (just forcing unleaded gas to be a thing in North America had a noticeable benefit on the IQs of a whole generation)?  These are all socialist things that greatly help one's ability to generate wealth.

Pure capitalism on it's own sucks and inevitably causes inequality that collapses - just as assuredly as a purely socialist approach sucks and inevitably causes a reduced production that will collapse.  It's the balance of capitalist profit motives and socialism that make economic prosperity work.  So it seems valid to have concerns about that balance being tipped too far in one direction or another, even if one is seeing some profit from the system as it exists.

[Metalcat]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

Capitalism always gets the lion's share of credit for what's really a partnership between it and socialism.

Through history, capitalism has been just fine with slavery.  If you're black and living in America . . . you can thank socialist regulation of markets for the freedom that allowed you to generate wealth.  Have you ever used a public road to get to work or sell something?  Were you educated in a public school system?  Have you benefitted from lowered crime due to public policing?  Was your country protected by a publicly funded military?  Is your air, water, and land kept relatively clean by regulation of industry that would otherwise profit from polluting (just forcing unleaded gas to be a thing in North America had a noticeable benefit on the IQs of a whole generation)?  These are all socialist things that greatly help one's ability to generate wealth.

Pure capitalism on it's own sucks and inevitably causes inequality that collapses - just as assuredly as a purely socialist approach sucks and inevitably causes a reduced production that will collapse.  It's the balance of capitalist profit motives and socialism that make economic prosperity work.  So it seems valid to have concerns about that balance being tipped too far in one direction or another, even if one is seeing some profit from the system as it exists.

Bingo.

Up here in Canadaland we have a lot more socialism than our neighbours and it doesn't slow our capitalist zeal. Same with the Nordic countries.

Capitalism and socialism are not actually in any sort of opposition, not even in the US. Let's not forget the role that government subsidies play in a lot of US industry.

[Dicey]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

Capitalism always gets the lion's share of credit for what's really a partnership between it and socialism.

Through history, capitalism has been just fine with slavery.  If you're black and living in America . . . you can thank socialist regulation of markets for the freedom that allowed you to generate wealth.  Have you ever used a public road to get to work or sell something?  Were you educated in a public school system?  Have you benefitted from lowered crime due to public policing?  Was your country protected by a publicly funded military?  Is your air, water, and land kept relatively clean by regulation of industry that would otherwise profit from polluting (just forcing unleaded gas to be a thing in North America had a noticeable benefit on the IQs of a whole generation)?  These are all socialist things that greatly help one's ability to generate wealth.

Pure capitalism on it's own sucks and inevitably causes inequality that collapses - just as assuredly as a purely socialist approach sucks and inevitably causes a reduced production that will collapse.  It's the balance of capitalist profit motives and socialism that make economic prosperity work.  So it seems valid to have concerns about that balance being tipped too far in one direction or another, even if one is seeing some profit from the system as it exists.

Bingo.

Up here in Canadaland we have a lot more socialism than our neighbours and it doesn't slow our capitalist zeal. Same with the Nordic countries.

Capitalism and socialism are not actually in any sort of opposition, not even in the US. Let's not forget the role that government subsidies play in a lot of US industry.

Winner, per usual! What I do not grok is the perspective that capitalism is inherently evil. I see more and more of it and I am concerned that we are approaching a potentially dangerous imbalance. I am in the US. I'm truly curious, how would demonization of capitalism serve to improve the lives of humans of any age?  What other options are better?

[sonofsven]

Oh true - I forgot how badly the Meta shift is going!

Ah well, was just an anecdote I remembered.

But I stand by my broader point (which folks seem to not be as interested in) - many people, younger people, who might be otherwise drawn to FIRE, feel alienated and fed up with capitalism. In that case, perhaps that explains why fewer folks may be joining these communities.

Dunno, are you sure about all that anti-capitalism stuff? Isn't capitalism a big part of what enables people of all ages achieve FIRE?

My first real job paid $1.80/hour and I never made as much as $100k/year in my entire career. I worked two, sometimes three, part-time jobs to put myself through two years of college without debt and then I went to work full time, because i didnt want Student Loans. I've lived in a HCOLA my whole life. Yet by figuring out how to save and invest wisely, I live like the fat-ass capitalistic millionaire I've become.

I think you're asking a question of mechanics, but I'm proposing an explanation of feelings. If someone FEELS alienated by capitalism they are hardly likely to end up on a forum largely dedicated to it, even if the point is to be less burdened by money.

I don't necessarily agree that this forum is dedicated to capitalism.

One can feel quite negatively about a system that they live in whole still accepting that they have to function within that system.

Also, a huge part of MMM's appeal is that it's about how to be happier being less of a consumerist sucker, so that's pretty compatible with having anti capitalist feelings.

Also, we can't assume that people are losing interest in the FI movement just because they aren't joining this forum, we already covered this above that forums are dying in general.

Capitalism always gets the lion's share of credit for what's really a partnership between it and socialism.

Through history, capitalism has been just fine with slavery.  If you're black and living in America . . . you can thank socialist regulation of markets for the freedom that allowed you to generate wealth.  Have you ever used a public road to get to work or sell something?  Were you educated in a public school system?  Have you benefitted from lowered crime due to public policing?  Was your country protected by a publicly funded military?  Is your air, water, and land kept relatively clean by regulation of industry that would otherwise profit from polluting (just forcing unleaded gas to be a thing in North America had a noticeable benefit on the IQs of a whole generation)?  These are all socialist things that greatly help one's ability to generate wealth.

Pure capitalism on it's own sucks and inevitably causes inequality that collapses - just as assuredly as a purely socialist approach sucks and inevitably causes a reduced production that will collapse.  It's the balance of capitalist profit motives and socialism that make economic prosperity work.  So it seems valid to have concerns about that balance being tipped too far in one direction or another, even if one is seeing some profit from the system as it exists.

Bingo.

Up here in Canadaland we have a lot more socialism than our neighbours and it doesn't slow our capitalist zeal. Same with the Nordic countries.

Capitalism and socialism are not actually in any sort of opposition, not even in the US. Let's not forget the role that government subsidies play in a lot of US industry.

Winner, per usual! What I do not grok is the perspective that capitalism is inherently evil. I see more and more of it and I am concerned that we are approaching a potentially dangerous imbalance. I am in the US. I'm truly curious, how would demonization of capitalism serve to improve the lives of humans of any age?  What other options are better?

I think it comes from observing the extreme disparity in wealth, when a few have so much and massses are dying in poverty.  People see the results and blame the system.

[Fru-Gal]

I too detest this “Capitalism is evil” meme. When people start talking about capitalism versus socialism they are avoiding talking about actionable things. And I find it especially bothersome in local political candidates who really should know exactly what the local issues are and how to fix them or have proposals other than capitalism is bad.

[GuitarStv]

Capitalism isn't evil.  But it really seems like the US is slanting heavily towards capitalism in the capitalist/socialist split that's it's choosing now.  When that happens, wealth disparity becomes greater.  The average person doesn't do as well as the very rich.  The ability of the poorest people to succeed and achieve is lessened and social mobility tends to slow.  Corporations get away with damaging shared resources to increase profits via weak environmental controls.

It makes sense that there would be a lot of pushback against capitalism when it's causing so many very evident problems.  The solution, of course, is to bolster the socialist side of the equation to keep the capitalist part in check . . . but there's a very strong and powerful group of right wing people fighting this change as hard as they can.  In lieu of an ability to change things for the better, many people will naturally attempt to tear down the perceived problem.

[Metalcat]

Winner, per usual! What I do not grok is the perspective that capitalism is inherently evil. I see more and more of it and I am concerned that we are approaching a potentially dangerous imbalance. I am in the US. I'm truly curious, how would demonization of capitalism serve to improve the lives of humans of any age?  What other options are better?

The thing is that the opinion you are citing is an uninformed one, so there's almost no point in commenting on it.

No one with a solid grasp of world systems would be 100% against capitalism, so it's not about what the extreme alternatives are, it's about understanding what is motivating the sentiment and what can be done to meet the unmet needs of the population that is unhappy with the system as it is.

Arguments aren't needed, education and systemic reform are.

[PDXTabs]

Capitalism isn't evil.  But it really seems like the US is slanting heavily towards capitalism in the capitalist/socialist split that's it's choosing now.  When that happens, wealth disparity becomes greater.  The average person doesn't do as well as the very rich.  The ability of the poorest people to succeed and achieve is lessened and social mobility tends to slow.  Corporations get away with damaging shared resources to increase profits via weak environmental controls.

Indeed, but he vast majority of Americans still live better than before modern capitalism. I'd much rather be a bus driver in 2022 than a farmer in 1822 or 1722 or 1622, etc.

It makes sense that there would be a lot of pushback against capitalism when it's causing so many very evident problems.  The solution, of course, is to bolster the socialist side of the equation to keep the capitalist part in check . . . but there's a very strong and powerful group of right wing people fighting this change as hard as they can.  In lieu of an ability to change things for the better, many people will naturally attempt to tear down the perceived problem.

Socialism is usually defined as the government either owning or controlling the means of production. I'm not sure that's necessary. We could just tax the profits, rich, VAT, etc and redistribute those gains to the poor.

[Dicey]

Winner, per usual! What I do not grok is the perspective that capitalism is inherently evil. I see more and more of it and I am concerned that we are approaching a potentially dangerous imbalance. I am in the US. I'm truly curious, how would demonization of capitalism serve to improve the lives of humans of any age?  What other options are better?

The thing is that the opinion you are citing is an uninformed one, so there's almost no point in commenting on it.

No one with a solid grasp of world systems would be 100% against capitalism, so it's not about what the extreme alternatives are, it's about understanding what is motivating the sentiment and what can be done to meet the unmet needs of the population that is unhappy with the system as it is.

Arguments aren't needed, education and systemic reform are.

And yet, look at the havoc wrought by a certain past president, particularly today, election day. To ignore it is dangerous, therefore I seek to understand. What do they think would be better?

[GuitarStv]

Capitalism isn't evil.  But it really seems like the US is slanting heavily towards capitalism in the capitalist/socialist split that's it's choosing now.  When that happens, wealth disparity becomes greater.  The average person doesn't do as well as the very rich.  The ability of the poorest people to succeed and achieve is lessened and social mobility tends to slow.  Corporations get away with damaging shared resources to increase profits via weak environmental controls.

Indeed, but he vast majority of Americans still live better than before modern capitalism. I'd much rather be a bus driver in 2022 than a farmer in 1822.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'modern capitalism'.  Can you define this term?  In 1822 (by a great many measures) the US was more capitalist than it is today (far fewer government interventions and regulations) - and as you said, it's much better to be alive in today's system.

It makes sense that there would be a lot of pushback against capitalism when it's causing so many very evident problems.  The solution, of course, is to bolster the socialist side of the equation to keep the capitalist part in check . . . but there's a very strong and powerful group of right wing people fighting this change as hard as they can.  In lieu of an ability to change things for the better, many people will naturally attempt to tear down the perceived problem.

Socialism is usually defined as the government either owning or controlling the means of production. I'm not sure that's necessary.

Socialism is just the flip side of capitalism.  In pure capitalism, all production is controlled by private industry with no governmental regulation or intervention.  In pure socialism, all production is controlled by the government and fully regulated.  Both 'pure' versions suck.  That's why every functional economic system is actually a mix of both.  Some government regulation controls the excesses and wealth concentration of pure capitalism, some capitalist freedom ensures a drive to productivity.

We could just tax the profits, rich, VAT, etc and redistribute those gains to the poor.

I'm not really opposed to this idea . . . wealth redistribution is after all a socialist government intervention in the economic system to keep the excesses of capitalism in check.

In the US today, the top 10% of people own more than 75% of the total wealth of the country.  The bottom 50% of people own less than 1% of the wealth.  What kind of tax rates would be necessary to correct that?  And how will you overcome the opposition from the 10% (who tend to have oversized political representation due to their wealth)?

[PDXTabs]

It makes sense that there would be a lot of pushback against capitalism when it's causing so many very evident problems.  The solution, of course, is to bolster the socialist side of the equation to keep the capitalist part in check . . . but there's a very strong and powerful group of right wing people fighting this change as hard as they can.  In lieu of an ability to change things for the better, many people will naturally attempt to tear down the perceived problem.

Socialism is usually defined as the government either owning or controlling the means of production. I'm not sure that's necessary.

Socialism is just the flip side of capitalism.  In pure capitalism, all production is controlled by private industry with no governmental regulation or intervention.  In pure socialism, all production is controlled by the government and fully regulated.  Both 'pure' versions suck.  That's why every functional economic system is actually a mix of both.  Some government regulation controls the excesses and wealth concentration of pure capitalism, some capitalist freedom ensures a drive to productivity.

I think that you are misusing that word. Socialism is not "just the flip side of capitalism." Freakonomics: Does Anyone Really Know What Socialism Is?

I'll be back for a longer response for the rest of your post later.

[Metalcat]

Winner, per usual! What I do not grok is the perspective that capitalism is inherently evil. I see more and more of it and I am concerned that we are approaching a potentially dangerous imbalance. I am in the US. I'm truly curious, how would demonization of capitalism serve to improve the lives of humans of any age?  What other options are better?

The thing is that the opinion you are citing is an uninformed one, so there's almost no point in commenting on it.

No one with a solid grasp of world systems would be 100% against capitalism, so it's not about what the extreme alternatives are, it's about understanding what is motivating the sentiment and what can be done to meet the unmet needs of the population that is unhappy with the system as it is.

Arguments aren't needed, education and systemic reform are.

And yet, look at the havoc wrought by a certain past president, particularly today, election day. To ignore it is dangerous, therefore I seek to understand. What do they think would be better?

But that's the thing, asking an uninformed person what alternative they want to a system they don't understand doesn't really help anything.

What's important is to ask them what they perceive as wrong with the system in the first place, and where they are getting this messaging from. That's infinitely more informative.

For example, if someone up here in Canada blathers on about the dangers of our legal system being taken over by Sharia law, it doesn't help me to ask them what alternative solution to this "problem" they would prefer.

It helps me much more to ask what their news sources are, why they are worried about the systemic erosion of our legal system, and what consequences they are most concerned about.

The "solutions" posed by an uninformed person aren't all that informative a lot of the time. The basis of their stance, on the other hand, is invaluable to know.

[Le Poisson]

What's important is to ask them what they perceive as wrong with the system in the first place, and where they are getting this messaging from. That's infinitely more informative.

This.

100X this.

Our existing systems are steeped in tradition and have been time tested. With the advent of social media, the inequities and and failures of that system have been exposed, parroted and magnified. The loud and constant messaging of how individual pieces of individual lives have been affected drowns out everything else in a noise machine that screams about a world on the brink of collapse. The Gays! First Nations! Patriarchy! Immigrants! Drug users! Etc.

And yet, what is lost in that loud and constant noise is the manifold ways in which the existing system is a success. That the overwhelming majority of people are housed, fed, clothed, protected, have leisure, and are enjoy freedom. That there is enough of a safety net that failure - an essential element of growth - can be survived in our existing Socialist-Capitalist Democracies.

Rather than screaming that the system is failing, the messaging ought to be how it can be improved to support all of society, but positive messages are easily ignored while negative ones get more clicks, more outrage, more action. And the machine that is Social Media only feeds that scream.

[FireLane]

I could be off-base, but I would expect interest in FIRE to grow, not decline, during a recession.

When times are good and people are flush, they want to live it up. Easy money! Saving is for losers! Spend like there's no tomorrow!

When times are hard and people are scared of losing their jobs, that's when the message of hardcore saving, voluntary frugality, and FU money should be most appealing. Right now, I'd think people would welcome a philosophy which promises that you don't need to be afraid of the future. And, of course, brand-new investors are getting a great bargain right now. This is one of the best buying opportunities in years.

I don't know if forums in general are dying, since I don't visit any others. But I'm pretty sure that the decline in activity on this one is because of the decline in MMM's posting frequency. It's the media coverage he gets that brought many of us here (including me). Since he's stepped back, there's not as much new blood here as there used to be.

I have a Reddit account and I've posted on r/financialindependence a few times, but I like this place better. Both the tone and the quality of discussion are better, IMHO. Reddit tends to attract a narrower range of people, which means a narrower range of perspectives, and the mods on r/fi strangle the conversation by deleting any new topic that's already been discussed "too much" (which is everything).