Are Mustachians more intelligent than the average American?

[totoro]

I think obsessive is a good word.  I'm not sure why it is like that. 

I can say that there are no longer good jobs with good pay for unskilled 15 year olds who leave school in Canada. I suppose unless they got hired on in the oilfields as unskilled labourers.  You pretty much need trades training or some sort of higher education here to get a good job and, even then, you can expect to change jobs several times.

My recollection of school was that there was a focus on social success.  We did have an iq test in grade nine I believe and we were given the results.  Nothing else was done about that and it was up to us to enrol in honours courses if we wanted to. I had no pressure from my parents to do well academically.  I happened to enjoy learning stuff so that part was easy for me.  Learning how to succeed socially was harder. 

I do expect that my kids will work to the best of their abilities at school.  I don't think there is excessive focus on intelligence testing/levels in the schools here as far as I can tell.  Our area is pretty wealthy with a high rate of education among parents so there appears to be a general expectation that the kids will go on to university like their parents did. 

I did have one friend who pulled her kids out of elementary school to home school because she felt the other children/system was holding them back academically.  They have loads of money to provide all sorts of opportunities and she seems to be doing a good job of homeschooling, but the kids seem unhappy and the older one definitely misses friends.

[RootofGood]

I felt the same way in law school where people seemed to be fond of telling the "I was so bored in elementary/junior/high school" stories. 

I was so bored in law school.

Now there's a question: why would intelligent people go to law school in the first place?  It seems, on my experience of law school grads, more suited to those like my 'quick witted' former co-worker.

Because they can get in and those who don't test as well can't (at least in a competitive law school)?  To excel in law school, I think you need to be able to write well, persevere through a lot of work, and have great analytical skills.  Owning a suit also helps.  If you are more intelligent, I figure you have an advantage at writing, perseverance at academic work, and analysis/reasoning. 

The courtroom quick wits might come in handy if you litigate or handle appellate matters often.  Many (most?) lawyers are transactional lawyers and rarely if ever see a courtroom (and if they are in one, it's usually "your honor, I'm making a special appearance on behalf of the defendant to ask for a continuance until he can get a real trial attorney to properly litigate this matter and not waste this tribunal's time").  The trial lawyers I know are like icebergs.  You only see them exposed in the courtroom 10% of the time, and the other 90% of the time is research, correspondence, client counseling, admin, and golf. 

As for the transactional lawyers, quick wits will get you pretty far as long as you are correct.  Just don't be wrong.  Especially when you are answering questions where tens of millions of dollars are at stake.  "That is my understanding of the terms and the law, but let me research this issue more thoroughly and I'll get you an answer tomorrow" is a much preferable answer to an important question than "yes" when the answer is "yes, but...".  Just my experience (mostly as a client honestly). 

[Elaine]

I think obsessive is a good word.  I'm not sure why it is like that. 

I don't get this. I find intelligence, it's study, it's origins, how to quantify it, how to leverage it and it's significance within larger society, fascinating. But bring this up as something that is real, quantifiable and worthy of discussing, and somehow, it's obsessive. This is an interesting and socially significant phenomenon. Reasonable people SHOULD be able to discuss this without it being written off as some weird obsession. It's not like I wake up in the morning and go, "Hello, beautiful and glorious intellect, at least two standard deviations above the mean! What wonders will we create today? Cure cancer? Stop global warming? Save all the puppies and kittens? Who knows, but aren't we just brilliant?!"

Exactly! It's hardly an obsession, in fact, it's so taboo in our current culture that I would guess most people rarely (if ever) discuss it with others in real life. I don't think it's dissimilar from many of the topics we delve into here, I think the fact that it isn't considered acceptable to even bring it up among other people, or even reference it, is why these threads populate so quickly. People who do spend a large amount of time considering the implications of intelligence rarely have the opportunity to discuss it. Many of us would not divulge our net worth to friends and peers, is net worth the single most important factor in a person's life? Of course not! But isn't it fun to have the chance to talk shop?

[totoro]

I think because talking about how smart you are easily slides into ego and elitism.  Academic study of the role and measure of intelligence is interesting.  People saying how bored they were in school because they were so much more intelligent is less interesting to me because it can come across as self-aggrandizing behavior or a lack of social skills. Kind of like someone saying how beautiful they are all the time.

I guess what it boils down to is the perception of ego involvement and this is not taboo but rather, IMO, off putting for many including lots of very intelligent folk due the possible lack of empathy it represents.  I'm not saying this is true for anyone posting here, just that this may explain it a bit?

[Elaine]

I think because talking about how smart you are easily slides into ego and elitism.  Academic study of the role and measure of intelligence is interesting.  People saying how bored they were in school because they were so much more intelligent is less interesting to me because it can come across as self-aggrandizing behavior or a lack of social skills. Kind of like someone saying how beautiful they are all the time.

I guess what it boils down to is the perception of ego involvement and this is not taboo but rather, IMO, off putting for many including lots of very intelligent folk due the possible lack of empathy it represents.  I'm not saying this is true for anyone posting here, just that this may explain it a bit?

I agree, but I think talking about how hardcore you are at crossfit (I think there's even a thread about what a healthy/fit person "should" be able to do), how you bike 20 miles in the dead of winter, how you built/fixed your house, how you save 50%, how your net worth hit 1 million, how you got a raise, how great STEM jobs are, etc. can all come across as elitist and braggy. I mean, the whole wall of shame is basically centered around pointing at people doing stupid/misguided things. So I don't disagree that discussions about intelligence can become egocentric, but it does seem like other similarly egocentric discussions are encouraged on this forum, while conversations regarding innate intelligence are generally seen as somehow not ok.

[CommonCents]

I think obsessive is a good word.  I'm not sure why it is like that. 

I don't get this. I find intelligence, it's study, it's origins, how to quantify it, how to leverage it and it's significance within larger society, fascinating. But bring this up as something that is real, quantifiable and worthy of discussing, and somehow, it's obsessive. This is an interesting and socially significant phenomenon. Reasonable people SHOULD be able to discuss this without it being written off as some weird obsession. It's not like I wake up in the morning and go, "Hello, beautiful and glorious intellect, at least two standard deviations above the mean! What wonders will we create today? Cure cancer? Stop global warming? Save all the puppies and kittens? Who knows, but aren't we just brilliant?!"

Exactly! It's hardly an obsession, in fact, it's so taboo in our current culture that I would guess most people rarely (if ever) discuss it with others in real life. I don't think it's dissimilar from many of the topics we delve into here, I think the fact that it isn't considered acceptable to even bring it up among other people, or even reference it, is why these threads populate so quickly. People who do spend a large amount of time considering the implications of intelligence rarely have the opportunity to discuss it. Many of us would not divulge our net worth to friends and peers, is net worth the single most important factor in a person's life? Of course not! But isn't it fun to have the chance to talk shop?

Agreed!  And it's inspired me to check out a book recommended here, Top Dog.

[totoro]

I think because talking about how smart you are easily slides into ego and elitism.  Academic study of the role and measure of intelligence is interesting.  People saying how bored they were in school because they were so much more intelligent is less interesting to me because it can come across as self-aggrandizing behavior or a lack of social skills. Kind of like someone saying how beautiful they are all the time.

I guess what it boils down to is the perception of ego involvement and this is not taboo but rather, IMO, off putting for many including lots of very intelligent folk due the possible lack of empathy it represents.  I'm not saying this is true for anyone posting here, just that this may explain it a bit?

I agree, but I think talking about how hardcore you are at crossfit (I think there's even a thread about what a healthy/fit person "should" be able to do), how you bike 20 miles in the dead of winter, how you built/fixed your house, how you save 50%, how your net worth hit 1 million, how you got a raise, how great STEM jobs are, etc. can all come across as elitist and braggy. I mean, the whole wall of shame is basically centered around pointing at people doing stupid/misguided things. So I don't disagree that discussions about intelligence can become egocentric, but it does seem like other similarly egocentric discussions are encouraged on this forum, while conversations regarding innate intelligence are generally seen as somehow not ok.

Yes, this whole discussion has been interesting and has made me examine my reactions. 

This is what I think:

1. Personal achievement in whatever form is great.  Please share your accomplishments!  They provide inspiration and a how to for others to reach their goals.  I don't find them braggy or elitist at all.   I enjoyed reading the write up on Zikoris and seeing how mrrootofgood retired early. 

2. We don't all have the same genetic talents/gifts.  They get dealt out without our say - for now anyway.  One of my children won the genetic facial and physical looks lottery.  He gets a lot of attention from girls.  It could easily make him think he is somehow better than someone who doesn't share this trait. I hope he does not attach his sense of self worth to this as he made no effort to achieve it.  If he went around talking about his handsomeness people would soon turn away.  If he decided to only be friends with similarly handsome people most would find it shallow and off-putting and he'd miss out on some great lasting relationships based on similar interests and affinities.

How does this relate to talking about how smart you are (as opposed to the role of intelligence in general)?  I guess because IQ is something you are largely born with.  You don't work to achieve it and being annoyed at being held back by slow kids seems unnecessary.  I do understand the frustration of those people who were told by authority figures that there was no other way, but only to a point.  Sometimes things aren't optimal, but this is not going to impact your sense of self worth the same way as not achieving can.  I have much more sympathy for the child who is struggling to read because of a learning disability than the child who is waiting for others to catch up.

I did have to wait for others to catch up all the time in school because I'm a super speedy reader. So what.  I had free time to think about other stuff.  I always enjoyed that. My learning potential might have been higher some other way, but I learned lots of stuff after high school.  With the internet this ability exists for students in school today in a way it never did in the past.

3. As far as the wall of shame goes.  I have mixed feelings.  I do think it could be used to create a sense of superiority, but it can also provide a place to vent for those who see illogical stuff and are frustrated by it. There are some examples of what not to do. If it is being used to make yourself feel better and on the basis that others are "stupid" this seems unfair to me.

[CommonCents]

How does this relate to talking about how smart you are (as opposed to the role of intelligence in general)?  I guess because IQ is something you are largely born with.  You don't work to achieve it

Above, it was suggested that intelligence is really more intelligence+application, as there are many intelligent people that do not apply themselves.  In much the same way you can be a natural athlete - but must work to excel at athletics.  Similarly, being smart helps you very little if you never learn to do things like read.  IQ may be something you are born with (although again, see above, it's argued you learn cultural things that make some races score higher on tests), but intelligence still requires an *application* of your talents.  I'm sorry if you were offended I talked about my struggles to get into GT programs due to my constant moves, and saw it as me bragging about how smart I was, however, it was intended as part of a broader discussion on how we ought to treat children of different abilities - *including* those who are perhaps more intelligent than the average.  It's unfortunate that this is still seen by some such as yourself as a taboo topic, just like money by the rest of the population.

I agree looks generally are not earned.  (That said, you can still choose to work on them, such as by learning what fashion looks best on you, how to expertly apply makeup, or working out.)

[totoro]

Totally agree and I was not offended by your comments.  It has been an unexpectedly interesting discussion which I so appreciate.

[totoro]

2. We don't all have the same genetic talents/gifts.  They get dealt out without our say - for now anyway.  One of my children won the genetic facial and physical looks lottery.  He gets a lot of attention from girls.  It could easily make him think he is somehow better than someone who doesn't share this trait. I hope he does not attach his sense of self worth to this as he made no effort to achieve it.  If he went around talking about his handsomeness people would soon turn away.  If he decided to only be friends with similarly handsome people most would find it shallow and off-putting and he'd miss out on some great lasting relationships based on similar interests and affinities.

How does this relate to talking about how smart you are (as opposed to the role of intelligence in general)?  I guess because IQ is something you are largely born with.  You don't work to achieve it and being annoyed at being held back by slow kids seems unnecessary.  I do understand the frustration of those people who were told by authority figures that there was no other way, but only to a point.  Sometimes things aren't optimal, but this is not going to impact your sense of self worth the same way as not achieving can.  I have much more sympathy for the child who is struggling to read because of a learning disability than the child who is waiting for others to catch up.

Would you enjoy sitting in a fifth grade classroom every day for a year, without pay, only to get told that you shouldn't be annoyed by this, or that you were being bored to tears, because some of the fifth graders can't keep up? Their bad situation isn't going to be fixed by your not being bored. And the kid who's struggling to read GETS HELP. I scored a 700 on my verbal SATs as an 11 year old, and do you know what I got? A pat on my head, and then I was sent back to sixth grade English class. I got yelled at for reading ahead. My mother was told that, because there were learning disabled kids, she should just be happy I was smart, despite the fact that I was miserable. She was told the school district couldn't skip me, despite the fact that I was routinely outscoring high schoolers on standardized tests. What you seem to be missing is that the educational needs of kids like me are routinely ignored, while we get told, time and again, that somehow, our being bored to tears is necessary because other children lack the ability or inclination to keep up. This is a fairly formative experience, and it's not self aggrandizement to discuss it.

Also, I make friends with people who share my interests and with whom I can share a satisfying conversation. This skews high IQ, because my interests tend to have a strong cerebral component. But go to any social event. Most people have friends about as thin, fat, rich, poor, ugly or attractive as they are. Heck, in my marriage one of us is much hotter than the other. If someone meets one of us before the other, they are often visibly surprised when the other person shows up. Most people associate with people like them, because those are the people with whom they have the most in common.

I don't know about the friends being as thin, fat, rich, poor, ugly or attractive as they are.  Doesn't seem to hold true for my group of friends at all.  The intelligence/interest thing does though and personality type is highly correlated - all of them are INFJ or INTJ. 

No, I don't feel too bad that you were bored in fifth grade.  I do feel bad that you were bullied.  Yes, I read some of your other posts.  Why?  Because my suspicion is that there were other factors behind your vehemence on the topic.  Might or might not be the case.

I'm not sure if the system is the same now in the US as it is now?  In any event, I expect a lot of folks were bored in school and university for that matter.  Some are bored because it is not challenging and others are bored because it doesn't match their interests.  Learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life.

IMO the bullying factor was not acceptable, the boredom is.  You know why?  You can overcome the boredom and your smarts will serve you well into the future.  A person with a LD might need help in order to be able to read at all.  I put my tax dollars there - and into measures that counter bullying.

In an ideal world the system would meet everyone's needs perfectly.  We don't have that.  Boo-hoo.  And, yes, we all sat there unpaid and often bored.  Many times our genius and specific talents unrecognized and unfostered by the system. 

[Leisured]

I used the word ‘obsessive’ because scoring well in IQ tests will not by itself get you far. My memory of school is that teachers had a good idea of what occupation a student was suited for by how well the student did at school work. IQ tests were an afterthought. Teachers were concerned to put ‘round pegs into round holes, and square pegs into square holes’.

And of course, streaming. What is the point of having fast and slow students in the same class? I am Australian and wonder if any American schools stream classes? The best basketball players are in the A team, the mediocre players are in the B team. Is this a problem?

I realise that things have changed since my school days, when dinosaurs walked the earth, mainly in the lack of jobs for average people. I suspect that things will get worse in this department until people learn to stop fighting automation, and see automation as a chance to live like characters in a Jane Austen novel, who did not have to work, because they lived off investment income. The parallel today would be a Basic Income scheme. Not a major economic problem, but a major political and social one.

[CJMcF]

No.

More judgemental, self satisfied and have superiority complexes? In a lot of cases, then unfortunately, yes.

I think that a lot of people need to live and let live - the world is full of all sorts of people - which helps make it such a great place.

[Freedom2016]

No, I don't feel too bad that you were bored in fifth grade.  I do feel bad that you were bullied.  Yes, I read some of your other posts.  Why?  Because my suspicion is that there were other factors behind your vehemence on the topic.  Might or might not be the case.

I'm not sure if the system is the same now in the US as it is now?  In any event, I expect a lot of folks were bored in school and university for that matter.  Some are bored because it is not challenging and others are bored because it doesn't match their interests.  Learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life.

I'd like to better understand your perspective. Do you think it was wrong or a bad idea that teachers put me a grade ahead b/c I could already read in kindergarten, and eventually skipped me a grade and put me in the gifted program so that I was learning at a level that challenged and interested me? Do you feel the same way about a student struggling to keep up in class, who isn't equipped or ready or able to manage the normal course load? "Kid, learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life." (i.e. "suck it up"?)

More broadly, this thread discussion made me think of the theory of multiple intelligences, which argues that there are different kinds of intelligences (defined in the wiki link below). The original guy named eight:

-musical-rhythmic
-visual-spatial
-verbal-linguistic
-logical-mathematical
-bodily-kinesthetic
-interpersonal
-intrapersonal
-naturalistic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

Mustachians likely excel in logical-mathematical intelligence, but that sure leaves a lot of other kinds of intelligences on the table!

[totoro]

No, I don't feel too bad that you were bored in fifth grade.  I do feel bad that you were bullied.  Yes, I read some of your other posts.  Why?  Because my suspicion is that there were other factors behind your vehemence on the topic.  Might or might not be the case.

I'm not sure if the system is the same now in the US as it is now?  In any event, I expect a lot of folks were bored in school and university for that matter.  Some are bored because it is not challenging and others are bored because it doesn't match their interests.  Learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life.

I'd like to better understand your perspective. Do you think it was wrong or a bad idea that teachers put me a grade ahead b/c I could already read in kindergarten, and eventually skipped me a grade and put me in the gifted program so that I was learning at a level that challenged and interested me? Do you feel the same way about a student struggling to keep up in class, who isn't equipped or ready or able to manage the normal course load? "Kid, learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life." (i.e. "suck it up"?)

More broadly, this thread discussion made me think of the theory of multiple intelligences, which argues that there are different kinds of intelligences (defined in the wiki link below). The original guy named eight:

-musical-rhythmic
-visual-spatial
-verbal-linguistic
-logical-mathematical
-bodily-kinesthetic
-interpersonal
-intrapersonal
-naturalistic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

Mustachians likely excel in logical-mathematical intelligence, but that sure leaves a lot of other kinds of intelligences on the table!

I feel just fine about you being skipped or receiving whatever benefits available.  I would cheer on anything that was helpful to you.  If; however, you started lamenting to me about how bored you were at school, I would not have much sympathy.  If you told me you had struggled with dyslexia I would have more sympathy - and I would be willing to spend more of my tax dollars to get you some help.  Same goes for being bullied. 

As a parent I work to make sure my kids have access to activities that help them further their interests/aptitudes and it is great when schools offer the same.  In Canada we have challenge programs for gifted students and individual educational programs for students needing extra assistance.  That said, the system is not perfect and kids are not going to receive everything in an optimized way. 

I think at some point, and preferably early, we need to learn the lesson that we can take charge of our own learning.   I am more concerned with assisting the LD student struggling to read than I am with a gifted student who can move at a faster pace.  Why?  Because a student who is advanced will be able to participate in self-learning.   A student struggling to read and keep up is at risk of significant self-esteem and other barriers to becoming a self-learner - as may a student who is subject to bullying. 

I agree with the theory of multiple intelligence and that is why iq is not really that meaningful to me and easily, imo, gets tied to ego in an elitist way.  I am much more interested in what someone accomplishes through their own efforts rather than what a test score says.  In terms of accomplishments, that can be in a variety of forms including things like a very successful marriage, excelling as a parent, retiring early or some incredible new invention.

I suppose being very happy with your life is the measure I believe in the most.  If you asked whether people posting here are happier than the general population I would say there are some good examples of very happy people, but I'm not sure that there are more than average.

[iris lily]

It may be conventional IQ, I don't know, but I think that the ability to strive for FIRE takes creativity. That's is always what I've liked best about  YMOYL or a mustachian life or whatever you want to call it: it challenges your creative bone to live a satisfying life that is not driven by consumerism.

I could see this bunch scoring high on a "creative" test but being average on a standard IQ test.

[Freedom2016]

No, I don't feel too bad that you were bored in fifth grade.  I do feel bad that you were bullied.  Yes, I read some of your other posts.  Why?  Because my suspicion is that there were other factors behind your vehemence on the topic.  Might or might not be the case.

I'm not sure if the system is the same now in the US as it is now?  In any event, I expect a lot of folks were bored in school and university for that matter.  Some are bored because it is not challenging and others are bored because it doesn't match their interests.  Learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life.

I'd like to better understand your perspective. Do you think it was wrong or a bad idea that teachers put me a grade ahead b/c I could already read in kindergarten, and eventually skipped me a grade and put me in the gifted program so that I was learning at a level that challenged and interested me? Do you feel the same way about a student struggling to keep up in class, who isn't equipped or ready or able to manage the normal course load? "Kid, learning to deal with and overcome the less than ideal is part of life." (i.e. "suck it up"?)

More broadly, this thread discussion made me think of the theory of multiple intelligences, which argues that there are different kinds of intelligences (defined in the wiki link below). The original guy named eight:

-musical-rhythmic
-visual-spatial
-verbal-linguistic
-logical-mathematical
-bodily-kinesthetic
-interpersonal
-intrapersonal
-naturalistic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

Mustachians likely excel in logical-mathematical intelligence, but that sure leaves a lot of other kinds of intelligences on the table!

I feel just fine about you being skipped or receiving whatever benefits available.  I would cheer on anything that was helpful to you.  If; however, you started lamenting to me about how bored you were at school, I would not have much sympathy.  If you told me you had struggled with dyslexia I would have more sympathy - and I would be willing to spend more of my tax dollars to get you some help.  Same goes for being bullied. 

As a parent I work to make sure my kids have access to activities that help them further their interests/aptitudes and it is great when schools offer the same.  In Canada we have challenge programs for gifted students and individual educational programs for students needing extra assistance.  That said, the system is not perfect and kids are not going to receive everything in an optimized way. 

I think at some point, and preferably early, we need to learn the lesson that we can take charge of our own learning.   I am more concerned with assisting the LD student struggling to read than I am with a gifted student who can move at a faster pace.  Why?  Because a student who is advanced will be able to participate in self-learning.   A student struggling to read and keep up is at risk of significant self-esteem and other barriers to becoming a self-learner - as may a student who is subject to bullying. 

I agree with the theory of multiple intelligence and that is why iq is not really that meaningful to me and easily, imo, gets tied to ego in an elitist way.  I am much more interested in what someone accomplishes through their own efforts rather than what a test score says.  In terms of accomplishments, that can be in a variety of forms including things like a very successful marriage, excelling as a parent, retiring early or some incredible new invention.

I suppose being very happy with your life is the measure I believe in the most.  If you asked whether people posting here are happier than the general population I would say there are some good examples of very happy people, but I'm not sure that there are more than average.

Thanks! That was really helpful - your point of view makes a lot of sense to me. :)

[dcheesi]

I read an interesting study article a while back, which suggested that there's no one right answer with regard to ability groupings. The gist of it was that both high  and low performing students do better in mixed groups of high, low, and (crucially) medium students --but medium students do better when grouped by themselves.

[Squirrel away]

I agree that there are multiple forms of intelligence.

I think the principles behind the Mustachian way of life are fairly simple to understand and more people would follow this path if they had someone to explain the idea to them. Many people don't understand the very basics of financial information because they weren't ever taught about it at school or at home. I think that is why the rich get richer as they start off in front anyway with the added benefit of probably having financial advisers. A lot of other less affluent people just muddle through the best they can and hope for a lottery win or an inheritance because they don't think that they have the ways to retire early or become wealthy just through spending less and saving.

I am not mathematically minded at all but I am organised and have good attention to detail and that helps me to manage my money.

No.

More judgemental, self satisfied and have superiority complexes? In a lot of cases, then unfortunately, yes.

That made me laugh.:0