Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?

[GilesMM]

Divorce rates are strongly anti-correlated to level of education. Advanced degress see about 30% few per-capita divorces than those who dropped out of college or less education. Mustacians bias strongly towards affluent and educated people. My suspicion, asserted entirely without data, is that the divorce rate is lower amongst FIRE aspirants. Folks on this forum have already broken the seal of talking about money (a social taboo in most of our home countries), and likely also share more about our personal relationships so talk of relationship troubles and divorce is over-represented in the content here.

Divorce rates are also correlated with an assortment of negative consequences for kids, according to psychiatrists.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Divorce rates are strongly anti-correlated to level of education. Advanced degress see about 30% few per-capita divorces than those who dropped out of college or less education. Mustacians bias strongly towards affluent and educated people. My suspicion, asserted entirely without data, is that the divorce rate is lower amongst FIRE aspirants. Folks on this forum have already broken the seal of talking about money (a social taboo in most of our home countries), and likely also share more about our personal relationships so talk of relationship troubles and divorce is over-represented in the content here.

Divorce rates are also correlated with an assortment of negative consequences for kids, according to psychiatrists.

Sure, but that doesn't show that those same children would be better off with their same parents still being married!

FWIW as a divorced mom I have had people tell me that they wish their divorced parents handled the divorce better or had done it earlier, but no one has ever said to me that they think their parents shouldn't have divorced.

[Zikoris]

Divorce rates are strongly anti-correlated to level of education. Advanced degress see about 30% few per-capita divorces than those who dropped out of college or less education. Mustacians bias strongly towards affluent and educated people. My suspicion, asserted entirely without data, is that the divorce rate is lower amongst FIRE aspirants. Folks on this forum have already broken the seal of talking about money (a social taboo in most of our home countries), and likely also share more about our personal relationships so talk of relationship troubles and divorce is over-represented in the content here.

Divorce rates are also correlated with an assortment of negative consequences for kids, according to psychiatrists.

Sure, but that doesn't show that those same children would be better off with their same parents still being married!

FWIW as a divorced mom I have had people tell me that they wish their divorced parents handled the divorce better or had done it earlier, but no one has ever said to me that they think their parents shouldn't have divorced.

This is exactly the elephant in the room with all those studies. It's the wrong comparison, because they compare children of divorced parents to children of parents who like each other and want to be married. I think the results would be VERY different if you looked at the outcomes of children of divorced parents versus children of parents with toxic marriages who hate each other but stay married anyway.

[wenchsenior]

Barf. I would hate to be married to someone based on my priorities when I was 25! Lol. I was a superficial disaster who cared more about my friends being impressed by my partner than how they actually treated me.

Recipe for fucking disaster.

Dated some really hot guys though...some of whom still have all their own teeth!

Shhhh, DH was only 25 when we met. I robbed the cradle to get an old fogey and we have both changed over the past decade plus, but so far we have mostly grown together. Rough patches documented in journal...

Lol. My wife and I got together when we were teenagers.

I documented my life and marriage some in a journal here, then realized I probably should not talk about it, even in the context of an anonymous online journal. So I deleted the journal. Some things are better left unsaid.

Heh, I also met my partner when I was 19. I was an extremely mature 19-year-old, though (I was 'born 40' as people say), and he was 28 with a lot of life experience. No one was more surprised than me that it ended up being 'the one'. We're still going strong....:counts on fingers: 33 years together as of next month.

ETA: Jesus, typing that I just had such a surge of love and admiration for him, and happiness/gratefulness that I wasn't dumb enough to sabotage the relationship b/c I was 'too young to settle down'. Gonna go tell him right now. Thanks, forum.

[curious_george]

Barf. I would hate to be married to someone based on my priorities when I was 25! Lol. I was a superficial disaster who cared more about my friends being impressed by my partner than how they actually treated me.

Recipe for fucking disaster.

Dated some really hot guys though...some of whom still have all their own teeth!

Shhhh, DH was only 25 when we met. I robbed the cradle to get an old fogey and we have both changed over the past decade plus, but so far we have mostly grown together. Rough patches documented in journal...

Lol. My wife and I got together when we were teenagers.

I documented my life and marriage some in a journal here, then realized I probably should not talk about it, even in the context of an anonymous online journal. So I deleted the journal. Some things are better left unsaid.

Heh, I also met my partner when I was 19. I was an extremely mature 19-year-old, though (I was 'born 40' as people say), and he was 28 with a lot of life experience. No one was more surprised than me that it ended up being 'the one'. We're still going strong....:counts on fingers: 33 years together as of next month.

ETA: Jesus, typing that I just had such a surge of love and admiration for him, and happiness/gratefulness that I wasn't dumb enough to sabotage the relationship b/c I was 'too young to settle down'. Gonna go tell him right now. Thanks, forum.

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

[NotJen]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

[Cassie]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

I am curious if you had kids?  It’s a much harder decision if you do.

[Telecaster]

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.

This part isn't talked about enough.  You can, and most people do, change radically from their early 20s to their late 20s.   That's normal.   What was a great fit back then might not be a great fit anymore.  That's not a crime or a sin.   It is just the way life works for lots of people.   

[curious_george]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

I don't blame you at all or look down on you. You're not a lesser person at all. People do change, all the time, and sometimes the best option is to go separate ways in life.

I think part of the problem is the stereotypical divorce we see on movies and TV shows is always bitter, and full of hatred.

But that doesn't have to be how separations occur. Two people can simply realize they want different things in life, or desire different circumstances, and amicably part ways. We don't need to think of it as some hateful event.

Two people can simply realize they aren't good for each other and part ways in a peaceful manner. I wish that amicable separations were portrayed in TV shows and movies more often.

[GilesMM]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

I am curious if you had kids?  It’s a much harder decision if you do.

No harm at all to marry and divorce as much as you like if kids aren't involved.  The odds of divorce are around double for those who marry before age 25 versus later, but certainly many don't divorce.

[Metalcat]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

I don't blame you at all or look down on you. You're not a lesser person at all. People do change, all the time, and sometimes the best option is to go separate ways in life.

I think part of the problem is the stereotypical divorce we see on movies and TV shows is always bitter, and full of hatred.

But that doesn't have to be how separations occur. Two people can simply realize they want different things in life, or desire different circumstances, and amicably part ways. We don't need to think of it as some hateful event.

Two people can simply realize they aren't good for each other and part ways in a peaceful manner. I wish that amicable separations were portrayed in TV shows and movies more often.

Both of your posts are coming off as judgemental.

You are saying it's both simple to have a great marriage and simple to have a respectful divorce.

I have a great, happy marriage that has thrived through profoundly difficult times, and I don't, for a second, think that because it's been easy for us that it's simple or easy for folks to weather these kinds of storms.

A LOT of people would understandably struggle in a marriage that has gone through what ours has. And it's not that we're "better" at marriage than others, we're both just uniquely suited to manage this kind of shit together.

That said, we dated for a few years and then broke up for a decade. Had we stayed together back then and gotten married, there's no way those two people in that relationship could handle what we've been through for the past 4 years.

Also, I had NO CLUE when I got married that it would turn out this well, and I had known him for 13 years by that point. Lol.

So it's not even that we're the right combo of people. We're the right combo at the right stage of life with the right set of skills and experiences to be able to handle our specific crap much, much easier than most. But I will never say that I magically could have predicted that.

Also, you've shared quite a bit about your marriage, and there are aspects of it that I would find incredibly difficult and not be able to manage, but you seem particularly equipped to handle because of your particular personality and background.

People who succeed at things tend to give themselves more credit than is due. Yes, a good, thriving marriage takes making a good choice, being loving and patient, having good communication, all of those things.

But it doesn't mean that people whose marriages don't work out just sucked at all of those things and could have made "simple" changes to make it successful.

Yes, some marriages have obvious weak points where a bit of effort could have prevented a ton of hardship. But a lot of marriages are very complex. People are complex. Previous traumas are complex.

Human beings are complex and multiple human beings interacting is even more complex. None of this is simple.

[ixtap]

I know someone who at the time of the divorce was all "This is the right thing, this is very amicable, mediation is going well" etc. Now several years later, we hear more about alimony and having to go back to court to negotiate paying for their eldest son's college. Outwardly, the situation has deteriorated since the divorce.

[NotJen]

I am curious if you had kids?  It’s a much harder decision if you do.

No kids, but no, I don’t think it made the decision easier.  It was very hard because I was very committed to making my marriage work.  Honestly, if we’d had kids it probably would have ended earlier, because I would have had someone else to consider.  I think his ultimate jerk-ness would have surfaced sooner.  (This is a new thought - I only learned recently that he ended up abandoning the 2 kids he had with his 2nd wife for a few years).

Going through my divorce made me wish my parents had divorced sooner, so they could have been happier.  They did “staying together for the kids” well, and I had a great childhood.  But they could have navigated co-parenting just as well (they are awesome at co-grand parenting).

I also wish my last BF’s parents had divorced at some point.  They are such miserable people.  I dreaded visiting their house.

I don't blame you at all or look down on you.

Your comment that “It's really not that hard.” says otherwise.

[tygertygertyger]

My best friend's parents when I was in junior high and high school were so nice to me. I think partly because I was from a divorced home. But my friend openly told me that her parents were going to divorce as soon as she went to college (she was the youngest). Her mom and my friend made fun of her dad, so there was clear contempt. It made me uncomfortable even then, but I don't know that I could have articulated it at the time. She and I didn't stay friends, so I don't know what happened after.

My own parents split when I was 7, and it was a bitter divorce and custody battle. I never wished they'd stayed together, but some of my other wishes:

*They'd handled it better, keeping us kids more out of the loop. They tried sending us upstairs while they fought, but obviously we sat at the top of the stairs and listened. My dad would ask us intent questions about what my mom was up to. My mom called his new gf "bimbo".

*I wish my dad hadn't married my first stepmom, because she didn't like us all that much. There was a lot of tension in the house during our visits, and it was clear that my dad was relieved when I couldn't go visit. He walked on eggshells not knowing what would upset her and I had to apologize to her for things that seemed to me ridiculous. That lasted the remainder of my childhood, then they divorced.

*I wish my mom had been better able to enjoy her life. She was always worried about money and exhausted from working full time/being the full time parent. She never dated anyone after the divorce.


I still have a mental association with marriage and a knee-jerk instinct of feeling trapped. Needless to say, my partner of 12 years and I are not married and very happy. I feel grateful all the time that I have him. I do periodically worry about some legal aspects - I'd like my partner to be eligible for my social security for example, in case anything happened to me, as mine would be much higher than his. But neither of us particularly wants to get married, so I'm not going to spend much time worrying on it.

[curious_george]

This is awesome.

I have been with my partner for 20 years now and am both glad I found her and committed myself to her at such a young age.

We talked extensively everyday for 3 years, then lived with each other for a year before getting married. So we knew and understood each other *extremely* well before getting married, including our life plan together, entire histories, feelings, fears, upsets, how we were both raised, knew everyone in both of our families, etc.

While every relationship has conflict at times, listening to each other and loving each other and respecting and understanding and constantly communicating with each other and being gentle and non-judgmental with each other and open and honest with each other and forgiving each other go a LONG way in a relationship.

It's really not that hard.

People add way too much complexity to relationships and let the thoughts and opinions of other people interfere too much. A relationship is about two people. Not what anyone else thinks.

I’m glad your marriage has worked out so far.

I did much the same: started dating at 20, lived together for a few years, got married at 24.  We talked about all the things.  Knew each other intimately.  Spent extensive time with our families.  Talked about about how we would never get divorced.  Very on the same page about all the things that were important to us.

And we got divorced at 30.  We changed.  It wasn’t working.  Because of the stigma of divorce, I tried to make things work for a year and a half (ridiculous).  Divorce is AWESOME.  We were both so much happier. 

I wish we could get rid of the stigma.  I was honest, I did my due diligence, and it didn’t work out long term.  No big deal.  I’m not a lesser person because of it.

I don't blame you at all or look down on you. You're not a lesser person at all. People do change, all the time, and sometimes the best option is to go separate ways in life.

I think part of the problem is the stereotypical divorce we see on movies and TV shows is always bitter, and full of hatred.

But that doesn't have to be how separations occur. Two people can simply realize they want different things in life, or desire different circumstances, and amicably part ways. We don't need to think of it as some hateful event.

Two people can simply realize they aren't good for each other and part ways in a peaceful manner. I wish that amicable separations were portrayed in TV shows and movies more often.

Both of your posts are coming off as judgemental.

You are saying it's both simple to have a great marriage and simple to have a respectful divorce.

I have a great, happy marriage that has thrived through profoundly difficult times, and I don't, for a second, think that because it's been easy for us that it's simple or easy for folks to weather these kinds of storms.

A LOT of people would understandably struggle in a marriage that has gone through what ours has. And it's not that we're "better" at marriage than others, we're both just uniquely suited to manage this kind of shit together.

That said, we dated for a few years and then broke up for a decade. Had we stayed together back then and gotten married, there's no way those two people in that relationship could handle what we've been through for the past 4 years.

Also, I had NO CLUE when I got married that it would turn out this well, and I had known him for 13 years by that point. Lol.

So it's not even that we're the right combo of people. We're the right combo at the right stage of life with the right set of skills and experiences to be able to handle our specific crap much, much easier than most. But I will never say that I magically could have predicted that.

Also, you've shared quite a bit about your marriage, and there are aspects of it that I would find incredibly difficult and not be able to manage, but you seem particularly equipped to handle because of your particular personality and background.

People who succeed at things tend to give themselves more credit than is due. Yes, a good, thriving marriage takes making a good choice, being loving and patient, having good communication, all of those things.

But it doesn't mean that people whose marriages don't work out just sucked at all of those things and could have made "simple" changes to make it successful.

Yes, some marriages have obvious weak points where a bit of effort could have prevented a ton of hardship. But a lot of marriages are very complex. People are complex. Previous traumas are complex.

Human beings are complex and multiple human beings interacting is even more complex. None of this is simple.

Hmm... this is a fair statement, I suppose.

I tend to view relationships as simple, but people as complicated. This complexity is often brought to relationships, which makes relationships complicated for people. But I don't see this as the natural state of things and think people tend to make a lot of things unnecessarily complicated.

I don't mean to downplay the struggles that a lot of people, like yourself, have faced in their previous relationships. I have heard so many stories from so many people it sort of boggles my mind.

My relationship success isn't due to myself. It's because of my wife. You really think with my background I have any sort of emotional capacity to be in a long term relationship with a person? Lol. :P My original plan was just to be single forever.

Like - Jesus - my knee jerk emotional reaction to this post is to get offended because you said I sounded judgemental. I assure you it's my wife's fault I'm married, not because I have any particular relationship skillset or understanding of people.

[Metalcat]

Hmm... this is a fair statement, I suppose.

I tend to view relationships as simple, but people as complicated. This complexity is often brought to relationships, which makes relationships complicated for people. But I don't see this as the natural state of things and think people tend to make a lot of things unnecessarily complicated.

I don't mean to downplay the struggles that a lot of people, like yourself, have faced in their previous relationships. I have heard so many stories from so many people it sort of boggles my mind.

My relationship success isn't due to myself. It's because of my wife. You really think with my background I have any sort of emotional capacity to be in a long term relationship with a person? Lol. :P My original plan was just to be single forever.

Like - Jesus - my knee jerk emotional reaction to this post is to get offended because you said I sounded judgemental. I assure you it's my wife's fault I'm married, not because I have any particular relationship skillset or understanding of people.

You've described tolerating behaviours from her that I would personally never be able to tolerate. I've likewise tolerated behaviours from exes that you might never be able to tolerate.

Relationships *are* complicated, they just aren't necessarily difficult between people who have compatible difficulties and tolerances.

Your relationship with your wife is absolutely complex, in fact, the factors that make it feel simple are profoundly complex.

[Cassie]

My best friend's parents when I was in junior high and high school were so nice to me. I think partly because I was from a divorced home. But my friend openly told me that her parents were going to divorce as soon as she went to college (she was the youngest). Her mom and my friend made fun of her dad, so there was clear contempt. It made me uncomfortable even then, but I don't know that I could have articulated it at the time. She and I didn't stay friends, so I don't know what happened after.

My own parents split when I was 7, and it was a bitter divorce and custody battle. I never wished they'd stayed together, but some of my other wishes:

*They'd handled it better, keeping us kids more out of the loop. They tried sending us upstairs while they fought, but obviously we sat at the top of the stairs and listened. My dad would ask us intent questions about what my mom was up to. My mom called his new gf "bimbo".

*I wish my dad hadn't married my first stepmom, because she didn't like us all that much. There was a lot of tension in the house during our visits, and it was clear that my dad was relieved when I couldn't go visit. He walked on eggshells not knowing what would upset her and I had to apologize to her for things that seemed to me ridiculous. That lasted the remainder of my childhood, then they divorced.

*I wish my mom had been better able to enjoy her life. She was always worried about money and exhausted from working full time/being the full time parent. She never dated anyone after the divorce.


I still have a mental association with marriage and a knee-jerk instinct of feeling trapped. Needless to say, my partner of 12 years and I are not married and very happy. I feel grateful all the time that I have him. I do periodically worry about some legal aspects - I'd like my partner to be eligible for my social security for example, in case anything happened to me, as mine would be much higher than his. But neither of us particularly wants to get married, so I'm not going to spend much time worrying on it.

You mentioned your mom being stressed both financially and emotionally and this often happens to single mothers. When I was 21 I divorced my first husband for cheating and had a 2 year old. He dropped out of the picture and didn’t pay child support. Back then it was next to impossible to collect because the laws that help today were just starting to be enacted .

Despite having a full time job I was barely making it and couldn’t save a dime. If my car broke down my parents had to pay to fix it so I could get to daycare and work. They watched my son so I could date. My second husband adopted my oldest son.

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

[Metalcat]

My best friend's parents when I was in junior high and high school were so nice to me. I think partly because I was from a divorced home. But my friend openly told me that her parents were going to divorce as soon as she went to college (she was the youngest). Her mom and my friend made fun of her dad, so there was clear contempt. It made me uncomfortable even then, but I don't know that I could have articulated it at the time. She and I didn't stay friends, so I don't know what happened after.

My own parents split when I was 7, and it was a bitter divorce and custody battle. I never wished they'd stayed together, but some of my other wishes:

*They'd handled it better, keeping us kids more out of the loop. They tried sending us upstairs while they fought, but obviously we sat at the top of the stairs and listened. My dad would ask us intent questions about what my mom was up to. My mom called his new gf "bimbo".

*I wish my dad hadn't married my first stepmom, because she didn't like us all that much. There was a lot of tension in the house during our visits, and it was clear that my dad was relieved when I couldn't go visit. He walked on eggshells not knowing what would upset her and I had to apologize to her for things that seemed to me ridiculous. That lasted the remainder of my childhood, then they divorced.

*I wish my mom had been better able to enjoy her life. She was always worried about money and exhausted from working full time/being the full time parent. She never dated anyone after the divorce.


I still have a mental association with marriage and a knee-jerk instinct of feeling trapped. Needless to say, my partner of 12 years and I are not married and very happy. I feel grateful all the time that I have him. I do periodically worry about some legal aspects - I'd like my partner to be eligible for my social security for example, in case anything happened to me, as mine would be much higher than his. But neither of us particularly wants to get married, so I'm not going to spend much time worrying on it.

You mentioned your mom being stressed both financially and emotionally and this often happens to single mothers. When I was 21 I divorced my first husband for cheating and had a 2 year old. He dropped out of the picture and didn’t pay child support. Back then it was next to impossible to collect because the laws that help today were just starting to be enacted .

Despite having a full time job I was barely making it and couldn’t save a dime. If my car broke down my parents had to pay to fix it so I could get to daycare and work. They watched my son so I could date. My second husband adopted my oldest son.

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Yeah, it super sucks to be held financially hostage in a bad marriage.

[curious_george]

Do you think people who follow the FIRE lifestyle are more likely to get a divorce than the average person? Thoughts on why or why not?

If the average person following the FIRE lifestyle is reasonably well represented by the population of this forum, I can almost guarantee they have a lower chance of divorce than the average person.

Over 85% of people on this forum have at least a college degree [1] and the divorce rate of those with a college degree is roughly half of those without a high school diploma.[2] Based on education alone, the divorce rate among FIRE people represented by this forum should be much lower than average.

Whether FIRE aspirants are more likely to get divorced than a similar cohort not pursing FIRE would be a more interesting question.

This is a good analysis as well.

At the end of the day I  am not sure if we can definitively answer the question, since we don't have any real data on what percentage of FIRE aspirants are divorced vs a similar cohort, but I think this is about as close to what we can get to an educated guess.

This does make me wonder if there are any other common traits among FIRE aspirants. Such as, for example, general anxiety levels, IQ scores, similar Myers Briggs personalities, that have any statistical correlation with divorce rates.

In retrospect I kind of doubt there is much correlation with FIRE itself causing higher divorce rates, unless one spouse is definitely not on board with the idea or lifestyle and it becomes a significant point of conflict in a marriage.

Or if someone achieves FIRE then significantly changes after they retire early and adopt whatever their dream lifestyle is.

In general though I think @Metalcat has the right idea here that divorce should not be stigmatized or feared, etc, so this is probably not really worth worrying about anyway.

I guess I kind of thought FIRE was some sort of magic bullet in life, eliminating all sources of financial stress, which would lead to much lower divorce rates, but I don't think this assumption was correct either.

Either way - it's probably not something worth worrying or thinking much about, as marital relations are largely unrelated to FIRE, I think.

[Metalcat]

FIRE doesn't solve people's issues, it just helps foster more favourable conditions for happiness and well being.

Human beings are capable of being miserable, messy fucks under any conditions though.

There are TONS of independently wealthy, FUBARed psyches out there. Having wealth removes a lot of stressed, but people are very good at filling that stress bucket right back up if they don't have good mental health.

[Fire enthusiast]

That's why I think it's important to marry someone with a similar life perspective. But I think the question presupposes that you made it clear that you were FIRE before you got married? Or one of you just popped the question of FIRE after you were married.

[GilesMM]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

The kind of asshole who abandons his kids after divorce probably wasn't a great presence in the home, and let's not paint all stepdads with the same brush. Many of them rearrange their lives and make huge financial sacrifices to raise kids that are not quite theirs.

[Cassie]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

The kind of asshole who abandons his kids after divorce probably wasn't a great presence in the home, and let's not paint all stepdads with the same brush. Many of them rearrange their lives and make huge financial sacrifices to raise kids that are not quite theirs.

You are absolutely correct! I already mentioned that my second husband adopted my son from my first marriage. He is my son’s dad in every aspect.

[vand]

I'm willing to bet the opposite - that FIRE aspirants have slightly better marriage success rates than the average, which correlates with things like

higher income
marrying
having children in marriage

Although times may have changed and we are not quite comparing apples with apples, in classic Millionaire Next Door the author does makes it very clear that financial success and long term marriage/relationship do correlate.

[Metalcat]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

I'm sorry, how are step dad's worse than parents in a bad marriage staying together?

My step dad is amazing, much, much better than my little brother's bio-dad and the reason he grew up with a fantastic father and male role model.

My step mom is also awesome too. She's the one I call first when shit hits the fan because she's the most calm and reliable of all 4 of my parents.

Step parents can be awful, but so can bio parents. There are a lot of amazing, loving, value added step parents out there and I find this assertion that having a step dad is fundamentally bad to be very offensive.

[Kris]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

I'm sorry, how are step dad's worse than parents in a bad marriage staying together?

My step dad is amazing, much, much better than my little brother's bio-dad and the reason he grew up with a fantastic father and male role model.

My step mom is also awesome too. She's the one I call first when shit hits the fan because she's the most calm and reliable of all 4 of my parents.

Step parents can be awful, but so can bio parents. There are a lot of amazing, loving, value added step parents out there and I find this assertion that having a step dad is fundamentally bad to be very offensive.

Agreed. And being a stepparent myself, it sure does not help the institution of stepparentitude to advance such negative clichés. Neither for the stepparent nor for the children.

[curious_george]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

I'm sorry, how are step dad's worse than parents in a bad marriage staying together?

My step dad is amazing, much, much better than my little brother's bio-dad and the reason he grew up with a fantastic father and male role model.

My step mom is also awesome too. She's the one I call first when shit hits the fan because she's the most calm and reliable of all 4 of my parents.

Step parents can be awful, but so can bio parents. There are a lot of amazing, loving, value added step parents out there and I find this assertion that having a step dad is fundamentally bad to be very offensive.

I think a lot of people - including my wife - have had some *incredibly* shitty step dad's and can understand how someone may come to this sort of conclusion. DW is also *very* against step dad's because she had several absurdly abusive and shitty step fathers.

I don't really find this offensive at all. Most likely they had some bad experiences and are speaking from their own experiences in life, which happened to be very different from your own experiences.

There are shitty people everywhere. In fact - one shitty person might be another person's angel. If someone is a step parent or biological parent probably doesn't change a person's core character much at all.

[Metalcat]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

I'm sorry, how are step dad's worse than parents in a bad marriage staying together?

My step dad is amazing, much, much better than my little brother's bio-dad and the reason he grew up with a fantastic father and male role model.

My step mom is also awesome too. She's the one I call first when shit hits the fan because she's the most calm and reliable of all 4 of my parents.

Step parents can be awful, but so can bio parents. There are a lot of amazing, loving, value added step parents out there and I find this assertion that having a step dad is fundamentally bad to be very offensive.

I think a lot of people - including my wife - have had some *incredibly* shitty step dad's and can understand how someone may come to this sort of conclusion. DW is also *very* against step dad's because she had several absurdly abusive and shitty step fathers.

I don't really find this offensive at all. Most likely they had some bad experiences and are speaking from their own experiences in life, which happened to be very different from your own experiences.

There are shitty people everywhere. In fact - one shitty person might be another person's angel. If someone is a step parent or biological parent probably doesn't change a person's core character much at all.

It IS offensive to generalize ones personal experience to all others.

Say someone grew up with a horrible father who had grown up in foster care and now believes that all men who grew up in foster care must be horrible fathers, including you. Is that not offensive?

Also, don't give me that "their experience might be different than yours" bullshit. My little brother's bio-dad *was* my step dad, did you miss the part where I talked about how horrible he was?? I've had a terrible step dad and I would consider it offensive to generalize my experience to all other step dads.

I'm also not generalizing my experience with my good step dad. Of course some step dads are terrible, some dads are terrible. Some moms are terrible. No one said becoming a parent of any sort magically makes them good, how did you even get that?

It IS offensive though to generalize that step-dads are bad when there are TONS of loving men stepping up and doing an amazing job raising kids that they've chosen as family.

[curious_george]

...

 I remember reading a study saying many single mothers regretted their decision to divorce before the kids were grown solely because of the finances and the dad’s dropping out of the picture so they never got a respite.  These are real issues for many people. Obviously for people with plenty of money they don’t have to worry about this.

Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads.

I'm sorry, how are step dad's worse than parents in a bad marriage staying together?

My step dad is amazing, much, much better than my little brother's bio-dad and the reason he grew up with a fantastic father and male role model.

My step mom is also awesome too. She's the one I call first when shit hits the fan because she's the most calm and reliable of all 4 of my parents.

Step parents can be awful, but so can bio parents. There are a lot of amazing, loving, value added step parents out there and I find this assertion that having a step dad is fundamentally bad to be very offensive.

I think a lot of people - including my wife - have had some *incredibly* shitty step dad's and can understand how someone may come to this sort of conclusion. DW is also *very* against step dad's because she had several absurdly abusive and shitty step fathers.

I don't really find this offensive at all. Most likely they had some bad experiences and are speaking from their own experiences in life, which happened to be very different from your own experiences.

There are shitty people everywhere. In fact - one shitty person might be another person's angel. If someone is a step parent or biological parent probably doesn't change a person's core character much at all.

It IS offensive to generalize ones personal experience to all others.

Say someone grew up with a horrible father who had grown up in foster care and now believes that all men who grew up in foster care must be horrible fathers, including you. Is that not offensive?

Also, don't give me that "their experience might be different than yours" bullshit. My little brother's bio-dad *was* my step dad, did you miss the part where I talked about how horrible he was?? I've had a terrible step dad and I would consider it offensive to generalize my experience to all other step dads.

I'm also not generalizing my experience with my good step dad. Of course some step dads are terrible, some dads are terrible. Some moms are terrible. No one said becoming a parent of any sort magically makes them good, how did you even get that?

It IS offensive though to generalize that step-dads are bad when there are TONS of loving men stepping up and doing an amazing job raising kids that they've chosen as family.

Yeah - I understand this is offensive if viewed as a general statement. I am dense but not THAT dense. Lol.

I *highly* doubt that @GilesMM means this as a general statement though, or actually believes that all step parents are bad. This is a forum full of mostly college educated people. I doubt anyone here actually believes all step parents are bad.

So I am interpreting this as them talking about their personal experience in life and staring their opinion based on personal experience.

I also don't get offended easily, and people generalizing their personal experiences in life certainly is not offensive to me because people do this *all* the time. 

You may find this offensive, but this doesn't mean *I* find this offense or this is some sort of universal rule where everyone finds this offensive.

[Metalcat]

Yeah - I understand this is offensive if viewed as a general statement. I am dense but not THAT dense. Lol.

I *highly* doubt that @GilesMM means this as a general statement though, or actually believes that all step parents are bad. This is a forum full of mostly college educated people. I doubt anyone here actually believes all step parents are bad.

So I am interpreting this as them talking about their personal experience in life and staring their opinion based on personal experience.

I also don't get offended easily, and people generalizing their personal experiences in life certainly is not offensive to me because people do this *all* the time. 

You may find this offensive, but this doesn't mean *I* find this offense or this is some sort of universal rule where everyone finds this offensive.

Giles can clarify for himself if he wants to.

As I read it, he made an incredibly offensive generalization about step fathers, after making MANY generalizations about divorce being terrible for children. Context cues tell me that my interpretation is reasonable.

I'm open to being corrected, but I think it's unreasonable given the pattern of posts in this thread to assume that it's NOT a generalization about step fathers.

[curious_george]

Yeah - I understand this is offensive if viewed as a general statement. I am dense but not THAT dense. Lol.

I *highly* doubt that @GilesMM means this as a general statement though, or actually believes that all step parents are bad. This is a forum full of mostly college educated people. I doubt anyone here actually believes all step parents are bad.

So I am interpreting this as them talking about their personal experience in life and staring their opinion based on personal experience.

I also don't get offended easily, and people generalizing their personal experiences in life certainly is not offensive to me because people do this *all* the time. 

You may find this offensive, but this doesn't mean *I* find this offense or this is some sort of universal rule where everyone finds this offensive.

Giles can clarify for himself if he wants to.

As I read it, he made an incredibly offensive generalization about step fathers, after making MANY generalizations about divorce being terrible for children. Context cues tell me that my interpretation is reasonable.

I'm open to being corrected, but I think it's unreasonable given the pattern of posts in this thread to assume that it's NOT a generalization about step fathers.

I'm sorry - but - I don't think there is anyone on this forum who is that dense, to actually believe that all step fathers are bad.

It's just seems like an odd interpretation of his post, imo, but I can understand how you would interpret it in this manner. 

I'm open to being wrong though since I don't know for sure what he meant.

At the same time though, if he actually believes all step fathers are bad, I'm not going to bother pointing out  how offensive that is.

I will just smile, nod, and walk away from that conversation, lol.

[Metalcat]

Yeah - I understand this is offensive if viewed as a general statement. I am dense but not THAT dense. Lol.

I *highly* doubt that @GilesMM means this as a general statement though, or actually believes that all step parents are bad. This is a forum full of mostly college educated people. I doubt anyone here actually believes all step parents are bad.

So I am interpreting this as them talking about their personal experience in life and staring their opinion based on personal experience.

I also don't get offended easily, and people generalizing their personal experiences in life certainly is not offensive to me because people do this *all* the time. 

You may find this offensive, but this doesn't mean *I* find this offense or this is some sort of universal rule where everyone finds this offensive.

Giles can clarify for himself if he wants to.

As I read it, he made an incredibly offensive generalization about step fathers, after making MANY generalizations about divorce being terrible for children. Context cues tell me that my interpretation is reasonable.

I'm open to being corrected, but I think it's unreasonable given the pattern of posts in this thread to assume that it's NOT a generalization about step fathers.

I'm sorry - but - I don't think there is anyone on this forum who is that dense, to actually believe that all step fathers are bad.

It's just seems like an odd interpretation of his post, imo, but I can understand how you would interpret it in this manner. 

I'm open to being wrong though since I don't know for sure what he meant.

At the same time though, if he actually believes all step fathers are bad, I'm not going to bother pointing out  how offensive that is.

I will just smile, nod, and walk away from that conversation, lol.

There are MANY people who believe that divorce is fundamentally bad and that step parents cannot be as good as bio parents together. This is actually an extremely common perspective.

If someone fundamentally believes that divorce is never the best option for children, then by extension, it's reasonable to conclude that they might believe that a step father is never as good as a married bio father.

None of this interpretation is remotely far fetched and fits perfectly with what Giles has actually said repeatedly in this thread.

Again, he's welcome to clarify, but that messaging seems abundantly clear to me, and not at all implausible.

[curious_george]

Yeah - I understand this is offensive if viewed as a general statement. I am dense but not THAT dense. Lol.

I *highly* doubt that @GilesMM means this as a general statement though, or actually believes that all step parents are bad. This is a forum full of mostly college educated people. I doubt anyone here actually believes all step parents are bad.

So I am interpreting this as them talking about their personal experience in life and staring their opinion based on personal experience.

I also don't get offended easily, and people generalizing their personal experiences in life certainly is not offensive to me because people do this *all* the time. 

You may find this offensive, but this doesn't mean *I* find this offense or this is some sort of universal rule where everyone finds this offensive.

Giles can clarify for himself if he wants to.

As I read it, he made an incredibly offensive generalization about step fathers, after making MANY generalizations about divorce being terrible for children. Context cues tell me that my interpretation is reasonable.

I'm open to being corrected, but I think it's unreasonable given the pattern of posts in this thread to assume that it's NOT a generalization about step fathers.

I'm sorry - but - I don't think there is anyone on this forum who is that dense, to actually believe that all step fathers are bad.

It's just seems like an odd interpretation of his post, imo, but I can understand how you would interpret it in this manner. 

I'm open to being wrong though since I don't know for sure what he meant.

At the same time though, if he actually believes all step fathers are bad, I'm not going to bother pointing out  how offensive that is.

I will just smile, nod, and walk away from that conversation, lol.

There are MANY people who believe that divorce is fundamentally bad and that step parents cannot be as good as bio parents together. This is actually an extremely common perspective.

If someone fundamentally believes that divorce is never the best option for children, then by extension, it's reasonable to conclude that they might believe that a step father is never as good as a married bio father.

None of this interpretation is remotely far fetched and fits perfectly with what Giles has actually said repeatedly in this thread.

Again, he's welcome to clarify, but that messaging seems abundantly clear to me, and not at all implausible.

You know - after reading through some more of his posts your interpretation might be correct.  *Smh*

But I'm open to his clarification of what he means.

[Louise]

I'm willing to bet the opposite - that FIRE aspirants have slightly better marriage success rates than the average, which correlates with things like

higher income
marrying
having children in marriage

Although times may have changed and we are not quite comparing apples with apples, in classic Millionaire Next Door the author does makes it very clear that financial success and long term marriage/relationship do correlate.

The divorce rate among college educated adults is only around 25%. Considering most have at least a Bachelor's, I'd say the odds are lower among FIRE aspirants. I also think marriage still correlates with wealth. Most couples work at some point, even if time is taken off for kids.

[former player]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

[Metalcat]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

[scantee]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

Why stop at stepdads? I can’t find it at the moment, but I recently read that girls who grow up in households with no male inhabitants have the lowest rates of child sexual abuse. I don’t think that’s a feasible or necessarily desirable goal as a way to live, rather I just point it out to show where the line is drawn is often arbitrary and selected to support an already decided viewpoint.

I think GilesMM believes about 70% of what he says and the remaining 30% is trolling. I usually skip his comments because I don’t find them valuable but YMMV.

[Cassie]

As a former social worker that spent 4 years in child protection there’s a lot of horrible bio parents!!  When I started crying everyday driving home from work I knew that I was burnt out totally because I very rarely cry.  I have also seen battered women that need to leave but stay in marriages. Those situations are often life and death.

I actually have known quite a few good step parents and eventually became a step mom myself. I didn’t get married for the third time until I was ready to take on that role because it’s a big responsibility.

 My youngest step son asked to live with us at 13 because his home life was awful with his older brother beating him up and his therapist mom not caring and never being home because she was gambling. Even though his dad and I are now divorced he and I are close.

I have my own personal beliefs about what is best for kids and used that as my guide for raising mine. Whatever path people take all involved live with the decision. Also there’s no way to know if a different path would have led to a better outcome. 

Personally I know that I made the right choice for my kids because they thanked me as adults. I paid a price because I started to have physical symptoms with the only cause being stress. However, it wasn’t just the marriage but I was also working for the government and it was very toxic. So with both my home and work life bad it started to take a toll. I took a job with a different state and left my marriage and all my physical issues resolved themselves.

We all make decisions that we are happy with and those we regret. If one person in a relationship is leaving then the other person doesn’t have a choice to make. IRL I never offer an opinion unless asked.  Forums are different of course:)).

[GilesMM]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

[nereo]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

This kind of argument is filled with erroneous assumptions. Divorce doesn’t mean a kid no longer has a father, or that the dad will be out of the picture in any meaningful way. It’s also takes constant effort to be a good dad, period - regardless of whether you are biologically related or not. There’s nothing “more” in it for the biological father than a step dad. If you want to be a real cynic the biological father has legal obligations (liabilities) that other people do not.

You also seem stuck on this idea of comparing a sub-par step dad to a thriving marriage between the biological parents, which no one here is arguing against.

[YttriumNitrate]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.
If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

There have been several studies comparing varying types of abuse in biological versus step-parents. The increased levels of abuse by step-parents, and the potential evolutionary advantage of it, is often referred to as the Cinderella Effect after the fairy tale. The last quote on the wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_effect) certainly has played out in this forum:

Discussing the implications of this line of research, Australian psychologist Greg Tooley, author of a 2006 study confirming the existence of the effect,[27] confessed that "it is certainly difficult to talk about because it is such a hot issue".

[Kris]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

I find it sort of alarming that you think it is not normal or natural for men to give a shit about kids who aren’t their own, and that there is not much “in it” for men to be nurturing.

Like… wtf?

[charis]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

I find it sort of alarming that you think it is not normal or natural for men to give a shit about kids who aren’t their own, and that there is not much “in it” for men to be nurturing.

Like… wtf?

I think the post above yours speaks to that issue, but applied to both men and women.

[simonsez]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

I'd argue most adults can be adequate at parenting and that there is a TON in it for everyone involved.  I can't even fathom what type of hetero relationship involving kids being normally present in the household would have a man state "There is nothing in it for me to be a good father to your children since they are biologically not mine." and the woman just accept that and have it be a successful relationship. 

Since you said "in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad" - does that mean that you think that "in most cases, growing up with a good stepdad was better than no dad"?  If so, that makes sense.

[curious_george]

Giles did say "in some cases".  And I believe that the evidence shows that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse step kids than biological dads are likely to abuse their biological kids.

If Giles doesn't want to elucidate they don't have to, they've already qualified their statement with "in some cases", which makes it incontestable.

This is the quote "Not to mention kids growing up without a dad, or, worse in some cases, a step dad or dads."

I interpreted the "in some cases" to mean that in some cases divorced moms remarry, not that in some cases step dads are a bad thing.

Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding and nothing offensive is being said. That's just how I interpreted it from the context of all of his replies in this thread.

But I could be wrong, I'm very open to being corrected.

I meant that kids growing up without a dad was a bad thing and, in some cases, growing up with a bad stepdad was even worse than no dad.  There are doubtless many kids who had a great childhood with just mom or just mom and her new bf/husband, but the odds are sort of stacked against them.  It's not normal and natural for a man to be a great dad to someone else's kids.  It's hard and not all men are good at it.  There is a not a lot in it for them.  It's the kids who get the short end of the stick some times.  You are welcome to disagree.

I don't understand what the difference is between a biological father and a step father is.

I was raised by biological parents originally.

After my parents divorced I was raised by my single biological mom and dad and step mom on the weekends for a couple years. Then I was placed in foster care and spent some time being raised by my first set of foster parents, then was placed in a different foster home with a new set of parents, then my foster mom passed away and I finished my teenage years being raised by my widowed foster dad.

Out of all of these parents I had, the best parent I had was my last foster dad - and I *certainly* am not related to him at all. He was just best equipped to fill the parental role because he was compassionate and actually cared about me somewhat, unlike my biological parents and step mom and first set of foster parents.

There are millions of step parents in the world who love their step kids, and people who were successfully raised by step parents.

I can accept that there is some small effect where, on average, some step father's may not be as invested in their step children as a biological parent is.

But I don't think the effect is large enough to say it is generally true, or that men simply cannot successfully raise children who are not biologically theirs.

To state this as a generally true statement will likely offend the millions of step parents, and millions of children who were successfully raised by step parents who they may have strong emotional attachments to.

Does this make sense?

[GuitarStv]

I don't understand what the difference is between a biological father and a step father is.

I don't understand either, but it's much more common for abuse from step parents (both mother and father) than biological parents in treatment of children.

http://www.martindaly.ca/uploads/2/3/7/0/23707972/d_w_2001_azf.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090513805000929?via%3Dihub
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235222001076
https://pure.hud.ac.uk/en/publications/violence-against-children-by-stepparents
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030083/

There's a huge amount of data indicating that this is a real thing, unfortunately.

[ixtap]

I don't understand what the difference is between a biological father and a step father is.

I don't understand either, but it's much more common for abuse from step parents (both mother and father) than biological parents in treatment of children.

http://www.martindaly.ca/uploads/2/3/7/0/23707972/d_w_2001_azf.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090513805000929?via%3Dihub
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047235222001076
https://pure.hud.ac.uk/en/publications/violence-against-children-by-stepparents
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030083/

There's a huge amount of data indicating that this is a real thing, unfortunately.

From one of those studies:

However, stepfamilies are also reported to experience more stressors associated with family violence, including alcohol abuse, child’s behavioral problems, adverse contextual backgrounds, and weaker social networks. This suggests that the stepfamily structure may not be a risk factor of violence against children per se.


Another says that the results of studies in developing countries are mixed.

[Cassie]

In summary, this is a thread where a few people repeat weird, outdated stereotypes about marriage, parenting, divorce, and kids, and everyone else pretends that these are valid viewpoints worth debating.

No good marriage ends in divorce.
No good parent ditches their kid, regardless of their relationship with the other parent.
Lots of people are bad parents, no matter the genetic relationship with the kids.
Lots of people are good parents, no matter the genetic relationship with the kids.
Kids don't need an adult of any specific sex or gender in their lives to be well parented.

Or this is a thread where some people spout some new age crap that parents can just do what they want and kids will be fine regardless.  It’s complicated and there’s no magic answer.  It’s a parent’s responsibility to put their kids first and do what’s best for the kids. That’s going to look different for each family depending on individual circumstances. The pendulum has swung too far from never divorcing no matter the circumstances to just do what makes you happy. Either extreme is detrimental.

[Metalcat]

In summary, this is a thread where a few people repeat weird, outdated stereotypes about marriage, parenting, divorce, and kids, and everyone else pretends that these are valid viewpoints worth debating.

No good marriage ends in divorce.
No good parent ditches their kid, regardless of their relationship with the other parent.
Lots of people are bad parents, no matter the genetic relationship with the kids.
Lots of people are good parents, no matter the genetic relationship with the kids.
Kids don't need an adult of any specific sex or gender in their lives to be well parented.

Or this is a thread where some people spout some new age crap that parents can just do what they want and kids will be fine regardless.  It’s complicated and there’s no magic answer.  It’s a parent’s responsibility to put their kids first and do what’s best for the kids. That’s going to look different for each family depending on individual circumstances. The pendulum has swung too far from never divorcing no matter the circumstances to just do what makes you happy. Either extreme is detrimental.

Did I miss where someone said that??