Author Topic: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?  (Read 15407 times)

curious_george

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So - I have read several FIRE bloggers where a married couple retired early and then got a divorce, including Pete's blog here.

I have also noticed it seems like there are several forum members here who have been divorced and remarried, or are divorced and looking for a new partner, or are divorced and single, or headed toward a divorce, etc.

Do you think people who follow the FIRE lifestyle are more likely to get a divorce than the average person?

Thoughts on why or why not?

Zikoris

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2023, 05:19:45 PM »
FIRE people don't have the same financial constraints that keep a lot of couples together. A lot of people can't afford a divorce or the cost of maintaining separate households and stay unhappily married as a result. A long and miserable marriage as a result of being broke is not something to aspire to.

FIRE also brings values to the forefront of any relationship, and a lot of people find their values are not actually aligned once push comes to shove. Turns out their partner actually cares a lot about what other people think, is materialistic, or has other non-FIRE-compatible traits or values that would not have come up if both people had continued following the standard life script.

Cassie

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2023, 05:22:22 PM »
I don’t think so. People get divorced for many reasons and it’s often due to growing apart or incompatibility. People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years. However, one of the fire bloggers said that his wife didn’t want to live on such a limited budget and it did lead to his divorce. It might have been Root of Good but I’m not sure.

Raenia

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2023, 05:24:13 PM »
I don't think FIRE folks are any more likely to divorce, I think divorce is just super common these days. In the US now, something like 50% of first marriages and 65% of second marriages end in divorce, so it's not that odd to see a fair number of high profile FI folks who are divorced. There are plenty of other forum folks who are happily married, but they don't tend to stand out as much, so there may be some confirmation bias at play as well?

I wouldn't be surprised if FIREing makes it harder to ignore issues that are going on in a marriage, or even made it more financially viable for people to split up when they're unhappy, but I'd be wildly surprised to see it creating problems that didn't already exist. Even if there's conflict about lifestyle or spending preferences, those disagreements were already present, just masked by the busyness and stress of work.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2023, 05:27:36 PM »
Money is a top cause of arguments and having a FIRE goal does shift the goalposts compared to what most people do. Most people are fine if they're breaking even every month on a cash flow basis. A subset of these are also fine with accumulating debt and going into negative wealth if it means they get to play with more toys or live in a certain high status way. For these people, money discussions are easy: Do we have the cash or can we finance it? If so, then get it!

I'm a currently married person whose spouse is not on board, and this has led to discussions about whether certain discretionary purchases, subscriptions, and service experiences are worth paying for. From the perspective of me, who wants to FIRE ASAP, the answer is usually no. From the perspective of dear spouse, who has a more mainstream mentality, the answer is "we have the money". No amount of discussion will cause us to see eye to eye because we're not solving the same equation. The frustration can lead to hostile argumentation that makes cooperation seem even farther away.

This could lead to a 2nd pitfall, which is when the frugal one says "OK, work and consume all your life. We'll separate our finances and I'm going to FIRE by myself when I have 25X my half of the expenses."

This solution seems reasonable to INTJ's like me, but certain sensitive spouses react strongly to the thoughts that (1) you're proposing a step that makes divorce much simpler, (2) this means I can't spend your income, and (3) it's not fair that we don't retire together - presumably at 65! The frugal one upon hearing this reaction is furious because not only has a reasonable compromise been rejected, but also the spouse is dragging them into a longer career than they'd like and having the gall to make a claim on their income while being wasteful.

Now throw the inevitable life curveball into this already-combustible situation! For example, I got us right up to the cusp of being able to retire - like 20X spending - and then dear spouse burned out on their job and quit, got sick, and didn't work for 3.5 years. All this occurred while the stock market took a dump and our savings rate went deeply negative. Over those years we lost six figures to the market and spent another six figures from our depleted savings because we were running a deficit. Imagine the frustration of the frugal one... er... me! Some of these frustrations have become nasty comments.

Luckily I'm not such a cheap bastard I turn my nose up at counseling. Dealing with different life goals in a way that doesn't blow up the relationship is really a process, and a good counselor can teach you that process. They'll also let you know when you need to refocus from the other person to your own circle of control or introspection.

So the marriage survived but it wasn't easy. Dear spouse is going back to work soon and hope lies ahead.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2023, 05:37:29 PM »
Money is a top cause of arguments and having a FIRE goal does shift the goalposts compared to what most people do. Most people are fine if they're breaking even every month on a cash flow basis. A subset of these are also fine with accumulating debt and going into negative wealth if it means they get to play with more toys or live in a certain high status way. For these people, money discussions are easy: Do we have the cash or can we finance it? If so, then get it!

True, but most couples with even a halfhearted interest in FIRE are probably avoiding money fights that originate from being broke. I feel like FIRE-interested couples are also more likely to be able to disagree clearly about money - "we want to spend different amounts" instead of "you don't love me [or other emotional inference based on your spending]" - but maybe I'm wrong about that.

I've been married for 3 months, so I hope FIRE doesn't hurt our odds. ;)

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2023, 06:04:42 PM »
I divorced before I found the MMM blog.  Money was one issue out of many.  If a couple has trouble agreeing on money management they most likely don't agree on other things either, and are not able to work them out.  If they could they wouldn't get divorced.

Having your finances in order does make the financial side of divorce a bit easier, but that depends a lot on the other spouse.  Nothing makes the emotional side easier.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2023, 06:30:13 PM »
It doesn't seem any more prevalent here than it does in my non-FIRE circles, though I recognize that's not a representative sample.  I think one person wanting to FIRE or be much more aggressive about it than the other person could lead to divorce-level conflict.  But in non-FIRE circles, stress over money leads to divorce-level conflict.  If the money fight is "let's save 50% and then retire in 8 years and live on $45k", or "let's buy a 3rd jetski now that the kids are old enough to ride alone, instead of the $10,000 handbag", the end results is about the same--stress over spending choices and priorities, which can lead to marital problems and divorce. 

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2023, 06:53:07 PM »
People talk about divorce; it's an event -- more a process, really -- full of sturm and drang.

People rarely talk about staying married.

I don't think it's the divorce rate that's skewed, it's the amount of discussion.

neo von retorch

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2023, 07:19:54 PM »
How many non-FIRE circles do you run in? How many blogs and forums do you read on a non-FIRE topic, where they discuss their personal lives, the status of their marriage, etc.?

Adventine

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2023, 08:45:34 PM »
I think a marriage has a greater chance of lasting longer if two FIRE-oriented people met and got married, as opposed to the situation where an already married couple discovers the concept of FIRE and only one of them becomes a "true believer."

My source is my husband, whose first marriage ended partially (but not primarily) because of disagreements about the FIRE lifestyle, and whose second marriage (to me) was based on our fundamentally similar FIRE goals and values.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2023, 09:40:09 PM »
How many non-FIRE circles do you run in? How many blogs and forums do you read on a non-FIRE topic, where they discuss their personal lives, the status of their marriage, etc.?

This. 

GilesMM

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2023, 09:50:29 PM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

Cassie

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2023, 10:46:14 PM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

It takes a big emotional toll on kids. I am a fan of staying together until the kids are grown unless physical violence is involved or there’s so much contempt for one another that the spouses can’t be civil.  If both parents are mature they should be able to make it work long enough for the kids to grow up in a stable 2 parent home.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2023, 11:14:03 PM »
It's VERY obvious that married FIRE aspirants are more likely to get divorced than unmarried FIRE aspirants.

Follow me on tictac for more statistical shenanigans.

GilesMM

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2023, 12:17:00 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

It takes a big emotional toll on kids. I am a fan of staying together until the kids are grown unless physical violence is involved or there’s so much contempt for one another that the spouses can’t be civil.  If both parents are mature they should be able to make it work long enough for the kids to grow up in a stable 2 parent home.


Absolutely.  Selfish parents destroy kids' lives.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2023, 05:17:50 AM »
The divorce rate in the general population is very high.

Of people still married, many really should get divorced and stay together because they can't afford to get divorced.

So if the divorce rate is actually higher among FIRE folks (debatable), then it's only because the ones who should get divorced can afford to not stay in bad marriages.

I would posit that the average FIRE couple actually has a higher chance of making it work because achieving FIRE requires being good with money, having good communication, and being aligned in terms of values and goals.

Money conflicts, poor communication, and misalignment of values are all predictive of divorce.

I know that for me, personally, the process of transitioning to a frugal lifestyle and constantly talking about our goals, hopes, fears, and plans has been instrumental in making our marriage stronger and more resilient.

Also, let's remember that divorce is a very, very good thing. It's not some sort of tragedy. A lot of marriages run their course and *should* end so that both people can move on to the next phase of their lives.

Not all relationships should last forever.

Speaking as a second wife, I'm a BIG fan of divorce when it's the right choice, and FIRE is all about making the right choices for living your best life.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 05:35:09 AM by Metalcat »

curious_george

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2023, 05:23:37 AM »
The divorce rate in the general population is very high.

If people still married, many really should get divorced and stay together because they can't afford to get divorced.

So if the divorce rate is actually higher among FIRE folks (debatable), then it's only because the ones who should get divorced can afford to not stay in bad marriages.

I would posit that the average FIRE couple actually has a higher chance of making it work because achieving FIRE requires being good with money, having good communication, and being aligned in terms of values and goals.

Money conflicts, poor communication, and misalignment of values are all predictive of divorce.

I know that for me, personally, the process of transitioning to a frugal lifestyle and constantly talking about our goals, hopes, fears, and plans has been instrumental in making our marriage stronger and more resilient.

Also, let's remember that divorce is a very, very good thing. It's not some sort of tragedy. A lot of marriages run their course and *should* end so that both people can move on to the next phase of their lives.

Not all relationships should last forever.

Speaking as a second wife, I'm a BIG fan of divorce when it's the right choice, and FIRE is all about making the right choices for living your best life.

Chapter two: Relationships - Divorce.

:P

Excellent answer as always. I will ponder this some.

Metalcat

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2023, 05:28:42 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

My parents split only had positive impact on me.

I don't for a second believe that splitting up harms children, I think acrimony between parents harms children, and acrimonious parents staying together is HORRIBLE for children and models a very dangerous version of what love should look like.

It's not healthy for a child to see contempt as a norm in marriage.

My friend was "staying together for the kids" and by the time his older daughter was 13, she asked her dad to go to lunch and literally begged him to get a divorce because their home life was so toxic.

I actually did the same with my mom at the same age when she was staying with my little brother's father despite being miserable. But she wasn't staying for her kid, she was staying because she was too poor to leave. In that case FIRE would have sped up her split and it would have been a GREAT thing. My brother and I got no benefit from watching my mother get beaten by her partner.

ETA: my mom moved on and married an AMAZING man who has been an incredible father to both of us, but especially to my little brother who was only 5 at the time. He and my dad get along amazingly well and walked me down the aisle together.

Divorce is what allowed me to gain two incredible step parents who both brough stability and kindness to my life, and both of my parents have been happily married for decades. Thanks to NOT staying together for their kids.

Marriage isn't good for kids and divorce isn't bad for kids. Happy, collaborate parents who model respect and put their kids first are good for kids. Miserable parents who model contempt and put their conflicts before their kids are bad for kids.

The above remain true regardless of marital status.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 05:39:18 AM by Metalcat »

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2023, 06:04:04 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

My parents split only had positive impact on me.


Among my peers, the ones that suffered the most trauma and have ongoing relationship issues are often the ones whose parents stayed together "for the kids" long after the relationship had run its course. Yes, divorce can have a big impact on the children, especially when it's acrimonious and the adults don't try to handle it with maturity.  But witnessing your parents in an unhappy marriage for your entire childhood can be another whole level of psychological stress.

Raenia

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2023, 06:13:45 AM »
Yeah, role models of healthy relationships are good for kids. Role models of bad relationships are bad for kids. Lacking a role model relationship to learn from (i.e. single parenthood) is probably worse than observing a healthy relationship, but far better than observing a bad one.

My parents were able to stay married until both my sister and I had moved out for college, because the problems in their relationship were serious but not acrimonious, and they still respected each other even though the love and intimacy were gone. Both of them are happier now, though, and I am a happier adult for having happier parents - and I have no doubt they will be better grandparents to my child separately than they would have been together.

DH's parents divorced when he was younger, and that was a good thing. Apart, they were able to co-parent and put the kids first, which they could not do when they were still living unhappily in the same house. And although it's a more recent development (like, 10 years vs 20), FIL's partner is a lovely woman who I am glad to have in our and our child's life.

And if someday DH and I stop being able to be 100% together, I would rather my child see an example of a relationship ending calmly for the good of everyone involved, rather than show an example of people feeling trapped in an unhappy, unhealthy situation. Better that they know it's ok to leave a bad situation, instead of teaching them that it's a moral good to stay together "for the children."

Of course, I don't expect that to happen, as DH and I have good communication and I'm confident we will continue to work out a future that is best for both of us together. But I never want to be modeling behavior to my child that I wouldn't want to see them put to use in their own lives, and that includes staying married unhappily.

charis

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2023, 06:26:54 AM »
People who are divorcing or newly divorced in this forum are more likely to talk about it because this is a financial forum and divorce is one of the biggest financial events that one can go through.  So it really means nothing, statistically, that you'd see it being talked about here. 

My spouse and I never argue about money, because we've been saving at least 60% of our income for the better part of a decade.  There's nothing to argue about. We don't have any specific goals about retiring early but we firmly aligned on the goal of not being tethered to a bad job situation.  But I have several close friends (who earn more than us) that argue with their spouses regularly about money, are stressed about money, and can barely afford their lives, much less a divorce. 

So I'm willing to bet that the numbers, if we could get them, should show that FIRE minded folks are equally or less likely to divorce than the general population.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2023, 06:31:50 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

My parents split only had positive impact on me.


Among my peers, the ones that suffered the most trauma and have ongoing relationship issues are often the ones whose parents stayed together "for the kids" long after the relationship had run its course. Yes, divorce can have a big impact on the children, especially when it's acrimonious and the adults don't try to handle it with maturity.  But witnessing your parents in an unhappy marriage for your entire childhood can be another whole level of psychological stress.

Exactly.

I prefer to frame it that it's the breakdown of a marriage that can harm kids, whether that leads to divorce or not.

How maturely the parents handle that breakdown determines whether children are net harmed or helped.

We have this bias that divorce is the problem, but it isn't, it's just that statistically, couples who can't handle their shit maturely are more likely to divorce, badly, and fuck up their kids along the way.

That damage is more acute and obvious, but as you said, go get intimate with someone whose parents modeled toxic love and tell me that person is okay.

My ex was from one of those families. The damage was deep.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2023, 06:32:28 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

My parents split only had positive impact on me.

I don't for a second believe that splitting up harms children, I think acrimony between parents harms children, and acrimonious parents staying together is HORRIBLE for children and models a very dangerous version of what love should look like.

It's not healthy for a child to see contempt as a norm in marriage.

My friend was "staying together for the kids" and by the time his older daughter was 13, she asked her dad to go to lunch and literally begged him to get a divorce because their home life was so toxic.

I actually did the same with my mom at the same age when she was staying with my little brother's father despite being miserable. But she wasn't staying for her kid, she was staying because she was too poor to leave. In that case FIRE would have sped up her split and it would have been a GREAT thing. My brother and I got no benefit from watching my mother get beaten by her partner.

ETA: my mom moved on and married an AMAZING man who has been an incredible father to both of us, but especially to my little brother who was only 5 at the time. He and my dad get along amazingly well and walked me down the aisle together.

Divorce is what allowed me to gain two incredible step parents who both brough stability and kindness to my life, and both of my parents have been happily married for decades. Thanks to NOT staying together for their kids.

Marriage isn't good for kids and divorce isn't bad for kids. Happy, collaborate parents who model respect and put their kids first are good for kids. Miserable parents who model contempt and put their conflicts before their kids are bad for kids.

The above remain true regardless of marital status.

I'd add that I don't think it's healthy for a child to see indifference in a reltionship either.  Even if it doesn't rise to the level of contempt, I'm not sure modeling "stay with someone you don't really enjoy and who doesn't add tremendous emotional value to your life" is something from which kids benefit.

Yes, divorce is hard on kids, but divorce only happens in unhealthy (in some way) relationships.  If it was a choice between a happy intact family or divorce, of course the former is better for the kids.  But choosing between a damaged, dissatisfied (or worse) relationship between the parents or divorce?   I think people get that wrong when they jump to "divorce is bad for kids" because they forget that once that conversation is happening, we've already reached a place where the relationship is bad enough that the kids are aware, and that it isn't setting a great example for them of what they should expect and give in their relationships. 

There are exceptions in every direction, but that's kinda the point as well.  A generalization that divorce is bad for kids misses those exceptions, of which there are many.  Perhaps more exceptions than not. 

Metalcat

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2023, 07:00:52 AM »
I'd add that I don't think it's healthy for a child to see indifference in a reltionship either.  Even if it doesn't rise to the level of contempt, I'm not sure modeling "stay with someone you don't really enjoy and who doesn't add tremendous emotional value to your life" is something from which kids benefit.

Yes, divorce is hard on kids, but divorce only happens in unhealthy (in some way) relationships.  If it was a choice between a happy intact family or divorce, of course the former is better for the kids.  But choosing between a damaged, dissatisfied (or worse) relationship between the parents or divorce?   I think people get that wrong when they jump to "divorce is bad for kids" because they forget that once that conversation is happening, we've already reached a place where the relationship is bad enough that the kids are aware, and that it isn't setting a great example for them of what they should expect and give in their relationships. 

There are exceptions in every direction, but that's kinda the point as well.  A generalization that divorce is bad for kids misses those exceptions, of which there are many.  Perhaps more exceptions than not.

Ugh, that is so true.

My experience is with pretty extreme bad marriages, but yeah, indifference is a horrible thing to model as "normal" in a marriage.

I also think there's a lot of value in modeling a healthy and respectful breakup. No one should see leaving a relationship that isn't working as "failure," but unfortunately, the way our society talks about marriage and divorce frames it exactly like that.

Other cultures don't put as much focus on marriage as the cornerstone of healthy families. In Finland, for example, there is little equating marriage with family. So the focus is more on families being healthy and happy, whatever the makeup of that family is, or however it changes over time, not on how long marriages last. They have very strong *family* values, with a very heavy focus on what's best for children, but don't equate that with strong marriage values.

Cuba, likewise, has incredibly strong family values and marriage there is more of a tool of trade. It's not unusual for folks there to get married to "sell" something that otherwise can't be legally sold, like a car.

The demonization of divorce has particularly religious roots. So if you look at cultures that have less religious foundations to their family values, like Scandinavian countries or Cuba, you find less "tragedy" discourse around divorce, but no loss of focus on families and child well being.

I suspect my family being Scandinavian plays a lot into my parents' attitude about their split and their family responsibility to make the process as healthy for me as possible. Our family never fell apart, my parents are very much connected, they just don't have a romantic relationship between them anymore.

They've always seen themselves as inextricably connected in partnership because of me.

DH often gives a pep talk to divorcing friends who have kids explaining that it's not that the marriage is ending, it's that their partnership is transforming from a marriage into a business partnership called "Kid Inc," and for the rest of their lives, Kid Inc has to be more important than any personal beef with their business partner.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2023, 07:22:45 AM »
I don’t think so. People get divorced for many reasons and it’s often due to growing apart or incompatibility. People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years. However, one of the fire bloggers said that his wife didn’t want to live on such a limited budget and it did lead to his divorce. It might have been Root of Good but I’m not sure.

Not Root of Good. They are still married.

neo von retorch

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2023, 07:28:39 AM »
I don’t think so. People get divorced for many reasons and it’s often due to growing apart or incompatibility. People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years. However, one of the fire bloggers said that his wife didn’t want to live on such a limited budget and it did lead to his divorce. It might have been Root of Good but I’m not sure.

Not Root of Good. They are still married.

That was Dr. Doom / Living A Fi

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2023, 07:33:55 AM »
Do you think people who follow the FIRE lifestyle are more likely to get a divorce than the average person? Thoughts on why or why not?

If the average person following the FIRE lifestyle is reasonably well represented by the population of this forum, I can almost guarantee they have a lower chance of divorce than the average person.

Over 85% of people on this forum have at least a college degree [1] and the divorce rate of those with a college degree is roughly half of those without a high school diploma.[2] Based on education alone, the divorce rate among FIRE people represented by this forum should be much lower than average.

Whether FIRE aspirants are more likely to get divorced than a similar cohort not pursing FIRE would be a more interesting question.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2023, 08:30:24 AM »
I don’t think so. People get divorced for many reasons and it’s often due to growing apart or incompatibility. People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years. However, one of the fire bloggers said that his wife didn’t want to live on such a limited budget and it did lead to his divorce. It might have been Root of Good but I’m not sure.

Not Root of Good. They are still married.

That was Dr. Doom / Living A Fi

Yep, Doom who moved on with a much more compatible woman, which I consider a great success especially since he was diagnosed with a serious genetic condition and his ex wasn't equipped to handle that.

Divorce freed him up to live a happier life. At least according to his last update.

A LOT of people get married in their 20s. The kind of person you choose in your 20s isn't always going to be the most compatible person for your 40s, 50s, 80s, etc. The things that matter to you in your 20s aren't necessarily things that matter later in life.

Barf. I would hate to be married to someone based on my priorities when I was 25! Lol. I was a superficial disaster who cared more about my friends being impressed by my partner than how they actually treated me.

Recipe for fucking disaster.

Dated some really hot guys though...some of whom still have all their own teeth!

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2023, 09:11:51 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

nereo

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2023, 09:23:26 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.

GuitarStv

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2023, 09:45:43 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

My parents split only had positive impact on me.


Among my peers, the ones that suffered the most trauma and have ongoing relationship issues are often the ones whose parents stayed together "for the kids" long after the relationship had run its course. Yes, divorce can have a big impact on the children, especially when it's acrimonious and the adults don't try to handle it with maturity.  But witnessing your parents in an unhappy marriage for your entire childhood can be another whole level of psychological stress.

Just to jump in - I also think that on the whole my parents divorce was much better for my sister and me than if they had continued to try to stay together.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2023, 09:47:37 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.
Demography is awesome!  It's fascinating that the average first marriage ages were the lowest (out of the 1890-2022 span) after WW2 at just over 22 for men and 20 for women.  There are so many trends that you might assume have gradually risen or dropped over time but the reality is that there are many ups and downs, more like an aberrant sine wave.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2023, 09:49:26 AM »


Barf. I would hate to be married to someone based on my priorities when I was 25! Lol. I was a superficial disaster who cared more about my friends being impressed by my partner than how they actually treated me.

Recipe for fucking disaster.

Dated some really hot guys though...some of whom still have all their own teeth!


Shhhh, DH was only 25 when we met. I robbed the cradle to get an old fogey and we have both changed over the past decade plus, but so far we have mostly grown together. Rough patches documented in journal...

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2023, 09:57:35 AM »
My partner and I have been together since we were 18, which is easier to admit now that I can add that we didn't get married until we were 30. It took me a loooong time to trust that 18yo me had gotten it right.

Metalcat

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2023, 10:02:33 AM »
My partner and I have been together since we were 18, which is easier to admit now that I can add that we didn't get married until we were 30. It took me a loooong time to trust that 18yo me had gotten it right.

DH and I met when I was 19, we were both fucking disasters.

Thankfully, we had the sense to break up for a decade and grow the fuck up before we got back together and considered marriage. Well... a second marriage for him. I had the common sense to get dumped by my fiance the first time around, which saved me a divorce.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2023, 10:07:20 AM »
No way to measure this. We can only speculate. Sad to think of what divorce does to kids.

It takes a big emotional toll on kids. I am a fan of staying together until the kids are grown unless physical violence is involved or there’s so much contempt for one another that the spouses can’t be civil.  If both parents are mature they should be able to make it work long enough for the kids to grow up in a stable 2 parent home.


Absolutely.  Selfish parents destroy kids' lives.

Speaking as a child whose parents should have gotten divorced but did not: in my case, pretty sure my parents choosing to stay together did me far more/worse damage. I used to actually pray that they would split up when I was in middle/high school. Instead, I got to watch them be miserable and paralyzed. And when it came time for me to go to college, the guilt was excruciating when I made the choice to go away. I couldn’t wait to get out of that hell-hole. But I also knew how much worse it would be between them when I left.

Knowing you are the only thing holding a bad marriage together is not a gift.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2023, 10:08:53 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.
Demography is awesome!  It's fascinating that the average first marriage ages were the lowest (out of the 1890-2022 span) after WW2 at just over 22 for men and 20 for women.  There are so many trends that you might assume have gradually risen or dropped over time but the reality is that there are many ups and downs, more like an aberrant sine wave.

And within those demographics are some interesting breakdowns, too.  Men and women with more education marry later (and also just are more likely to marry) than those with less.  I'd hazard a guess (but could easily be wrong) that this probably means people with more education divorce somewhat less, too.  Simply because I think marrying later means you have more of a sense of who you are and what you need in a partner.  And also because it is less likely you are marrying for more religious reasons (again, I guess). 

I did see a stat, on a quick google search that said those with more education are less likely to divorce, but it didn't say whether they were less likely to divorce when all other factors were removed, so IDK how much of that is education=later marriage; and later marriage=less divorce, versus a direct education=less divorce. 

DH and I were 25-26 when we married.  (We met at 15/16, dated briefly at those ages, and then stayed friends through high school and college, before giving it a real try.)  While we've been married 20+ years and everything is still going great--even better with time--I do think we were too young to marry.  The first few years of our marriage were probably harder than they needed to be, in large part because we were young and didn't quite know what we needed from each other.  Most of my friends didn't marry until 29+; then again, most of my friends are more highly educated so that matches the data.  Perhaps not coincidentally, none of my close circle of friends is divorced, either. 

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2023, 10:17:00 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.
Demography is awesome!  It's fascinating that the average first marriage ages were the lowest (out of the 1890-2022 span) after WW2 at just over 22 for men and 20 for women.  There are so many trends that you might assume have gradually risen or dropped over time but the reality is that there are many ups and downs, more like an aberrant sine wave.

And within those demographics are some interesting breakdowns, too.  Men and women with more education marry later (and also just are more likely to marry) than those with less.  I'd hazard a guess (but could easily be wrong) that this probably means people with more education divorce somewhat less, too.  Simply because I think marrying later means you have more of a sense of who you are and what you need in a partner.  And also because it is less likely you are marrying for more religious reasons (again, I guess). 

I did see a stat, on a quick google search that said those with more education are less likely to divorce, but it didn't say whether they were less likely to divorce when all other factors were removed, so IDK how much of that is education=later marriage; and later marriage=less divorce, versus a direct education=less divorce. 

DH and I were 25-26 when we married.  (We met at 15/16, dated briefly at those ages, and then stayed friends through high school and college, before giving it a real try.)  While we've been married 20+ years and everything is still going great--even better with time--I do think we were too young to marry.  The first few years of our marriage were probably harder than they needed to be, in large part because we were young and didn't quite know what we needed from each other.  Most of my friends didn't marry until 29+; then again, most of my friends are more highly educated so that matches the data.  Perhaps not coincidentally, none of my close circle of friends is divorced, either.

I had actually read something recently that said older marriage correlated with higher divorce rates, but the posited explanation was that people who marry younger tend to be more religious and have much more social pressure to stay in marriages even if they are terrible.

So you have to look at the stats of who stays married longer not from a lens of which marriages are better, but which marriages are under more pressure to stay married.

A  marriage lasting a long time doesn't equal that marriage being happy.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2023, 10:23:16 AM »
Alternative Interpretation:
People who spend their time blogging or posting on the MMM forum are the sort of people whose spouses divorce them.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2023, 10:29:16 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.

Back during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s many women died in childbirth and they often had so many children because of lack of decent birth control which takes a huge toll on their bodies. So men often had 2-3 wives in their lifetime. Men needed a woman to raise their kids while they worked so usually hunted for a new wife fairly quickly.  When I was researching my family tree on both sides I noticed this trend.  We also forget that antibiotics haven’t been around forever. They saved my dad’s life when he was in his 20’s and hadn’t been available for that long.

I had a friend whose husband was undermining her with the kids and also bankrupting them financially. At 10 years of marriage he would have been entitled to half of her pension up to whenever they divorced. When asked my opinion after 9 years of marriage I said that I would divorce him because he was not serving any benefit for the family but was actively harming the family. Each situation is different. 

I stayed in my marriage for 22 years until my youngest was grown. The kids had no clue and actually thanked me for it years later because they had a much better childhood than if we had split.  My husband didn’t want the divorce when it finally happened. It worked because after lots of marriage counseling very little changed and I decided to forget about leaving and just live my life. I focused on the positive parts of my marriage, the kids and my career.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 10:44:07 AM by Cassie »

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2023, 11:44:02 AM »
Divorce rates are strongly anti-correlated to level of education. Advanced degress see about 30% few per-capita divorces than those who dropped out of college or less education. Mustacians bias strongly towards affluent and educated people. My suspicion, asserted entirely without data, is that the divorce rate is lower amongst FIRE aspirants. Folks on this forum have already broken the seal of talking about money (a social taboo in most of our home countries), and likely also share more about our personal relationships so talk of relationship troubles and divorce is over-represented in the content here.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2023, 11:53:14 AM »
Divorce rates are strongly anti-correlated to level of education. Advanced degress see about 30% few per-capita divorces than those who dropped out of college or less education. Mustacians bias strongly towards affluent and educated people. My suspicion, asserted entirely without data, is that the divorce rate is lower amongst FIRE aspirants. Folks on this forum have already broken the seal of talking about money (a social taboo in most of our home countries), and likely also share more about our personal relationships so talk of relationship troubles and divorce is over-represented in the content here.

Plus you just don't notice middle aged folks benignly mentioning their spouses, so longer marriages don't really stand out in memory for most folks here.

If I think about the people I know best here, I believe most of them are married.

Metalcat

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2023, 11:57:04 AM »
People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years.

People are living much longer than 150 years ago, but the major gains came in the first few years of life.

In 1850, life expectancy for a white male at age 20 was another 40 years while now it is up to about 57 years.[1] Average age of first marriage for men has gone from 26 in 1890 to about 30 today.[2]. Running the numbers, the average man who got married at the average age in 1850 could expect to live another 36 from his wedding day while today the average man can live another 47 years from his wedding day.

While the average marriage that goes well into old age will be longer today than in the 1800s, it will only be about 30% longer.

I love this post. It challenges so many myths, plus it highlights the importance of understanding what your relevant timeframe truly is.

Back during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s many women died in childbirth and they often had so many children because of lack of decent birth control which takes a huge toll on their bodies. So men often had 2-3 wives in their lifetime. Men needed a woman to raise their kids while they worked so usually hunted for a new wife fairly quickly.  When I was researching my family tree on both sides I noticed this trend.  We also forget that antibiotics haven’t been around forever. They saved my dad’s life when he was in his 20’s and hadn’t been available for that long.

I had a friend whose husband was undermining her with the kids and also bankrupting them financially. At 10 years of marriage he would have been entitled to half of her pension up to whenever they divorced. When asked my opinion after 9 years of marriage I said that I would divorce him because he was not serving any benefit for the family but was actively harming the family. Each situation is different. 

I stayed in my marriage for 22 years until my youngest was grown. The kids had no clue and actually thanked me for it years later because they had a much better childhood than if we had split.  My husband didn’t want the divorce when it finally happened. It worked because after lots of marriage counseling very little changed and I decided to forget about leaving and just live my life. I focused on the positive parts of my marriage, the kids and my career.

IMHO, I think it's pretty exceptional for people to be able to stay married in a healthy way when they want out of their marriage.

Whenever you tell your story I'm always amazed that you had the kind of marriage that could just peacefully and lovingly stay together for the sake of children, but from what I've seen of couples, I can't imagine anyone I know managing to do that once they got to the point of wanting out of their marriages.

It's admirable since it obviously worked so well for you, but I don't think it's common.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2023, 12:43:37 PM »
I don’t think so. People get divorced for many reasons and it’s often due to growing apart or incompatibility. People live so much longer than in the past that I think it’s hard to be happy for all those years. However, one of the fire bloggers said that his wife didn’t want to live on such a limited budget and it did lead to his divorce. It might have been Root of Good but I’m not sure.

Not Root of Good. They are still married.

That was Dr. Doom / Living A Fi

Maybe also Get Rich Slowly I think, with JD.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 12:48:36 PM by jrhampt »

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2023, 02:15:32 PM »
On topic:  I think it depends on whether both parties were Mustachian when they married, or whether Mustachianism is a subsequent discovery, along with the degree of change.  If you're both Mustachian when you marry, I'd think the chance of divorce is less likely, because not only do you have similar life goals, you've learned to talk about it.  OTOH, if you're both happily treadmilling along in commercial hedonism, and one party has a come-to-Pete moment, well, that's like any other major change in a partner and can put a huge stress on the marriage.  I'd think that would be similar to, say, both parties belonging to the same go-to-church-on-Christmas-and-Easter church when they marry, but one down the road converts to a super-fundamentalist religion.  Some couples will navigate a change of that magnitude, while many others will not.

Divorce:  I think most would agree that the best environment for kids is to have two mentally-healthy parents in a loving, supportive relationship.  The problem is, if you don't have a good relationship at the heart of it all, you're already outside of that "best environment."  At that point, the question becomes which is the best of the poor options -- tough it out, or split?  I suspect the answer to that is dependent almost entirely on the two parents involved. 

In many cases, divorce is bad for the kids because they usually live with mom, and mom usually makes a lot less than dad.  Success in school is highly correlated with socioeconomic status, so if the kids' status drops, and now mom's working all the time to make ends meet and can't be as involved in their lives, the kids likely won't do as well in school.  OTOH, what's the value of modeling a healthy relationship?  You can measure things like changes in SES and grades, so it's easy to point to that and say, see, divorce is bad!  But you can't measure all of the qualities and characteristics that really matter for long-term health and happiness.

FWIW, I'm one of those who thank God that my parents divorced.  They married WAY too young and never should have in the first place.  No, it wasn't easy in a lot of ways -- we were on Food Stamps for a while, I had Issues with my dad for years, etc.  And yet I cannot imagine the stress I'd have faced every single day if they'd stayed married for my sake.  Most importantly, my mom met my stepdad and married him when I was 9, and I got an up-close-and-personal view of a very, very healthy relationship that lasted until he died a few years back.  When I met now-DH, my first thought was how much he was like my stepdad in the way he treated people (me, his grandma, the waitstaff, etc.).*  But my stepdad taught me the kind of characteristics that made a good man and a good husband and provided a daily example of how I should expect to be treated by anyone I was close to.  My life would have been infinitely poorer if he had not been a part of it. 


*Turns out I got that one wrong in several ways.  ;-)  But we've navigated that, and it's been 27 years this year.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2023, 03:44:57 PM »
On topic:  I think it depends on whether both parties were Mustachian when they married, or whether Mustachianism is a subsequent discovery, along with the degree of change.  If you're both Mustachian when you marry, I'd think the chance of divorce is less likely, because not only do you have similar life goals, you've learned to talk about it.  OTOH, if you're both happily treadmilling along in commercial hedonism, and one party has a come-to-Pete moment, well, that's like any other major change in a partner and can put a huge stress on the marriage.  I'd think that would be similar to, say, both parties belonging to the same go-to-church-on-Christmas-and-Easter church when they marry, but one down the road converts to a super-fundamentalist religion.  Some couples will navigate a change of that magnitude, while many others will not.

Divorce:  I think most would agree that the best environment for kids is to have two mentally-healthy parents in a loving, supportive relationship.  The problem is, if you don't have a good relationship at the heart of it all, you're already outside of that "best environment."  At that point, the question becomes which is the best of the poor options -- tough it out, or split?  I suspect the answer to that is dependent almost entirely on the two parents involved. 

In many cases, divorce is bad for the kids because they usually live with mom, and mom usually makes a lot less than dad.  Success in school is highly correlated with socioeconomic status, so if the kids' status drops, and now mom's working all the time to make ends meet and can't be as involved in their lives, the kids likely won't do as well in school.  OTOH, what's the value of modeling a healthy relationship?  You can measure things like changes in SES and grades, so it's easy to point to that and say, see, divorce is bad!  But you can't measure all of the qualities and characteristics that really matter for long-term health and happiness.

FWIW, I'm one of those who thank God that my parents divorced.  They married WAY too young and never should have in the first place.  No, it wasn't easy in a lot of ways -- we were on Food Stamps for a while, I had Issues with my dad for years, etc.  And yet I cannot imagine the stress I'd have faced every single day if they'd stayed married for my sake.  Most importantly, my mom met my stepdad and married him when I was 9, and I got an up-close-and-personal view of a very, very healthy relationship that lasted until he died a few years back.  When I met now-DH, my first thought was how much he was like my stepdad in the way he treated people (me, his grandma, the waitstaff, etc.).*  But my stepdad taught me the kind of characteristics that made a good man and a good husband and provided a daily example of how I should expect to be treated by anyone I was close to.  My life would have been infinitely poorer if he had not been a part of it. 


*Turns out I got that one wrong in several ways.  ;-)  But we've navigated that, and it's been 27 years this year.

There's also the guilt.  I imagine knowing that mom stayed with dad, or dad with mom, despite not being happy in the relationship, because of you [global 'you'] is a pretty heavy weight for a child or young adult.  Or even a not-young adult.  Like, mom sacrificed a lot of happiness in her 30s and early 40s because of me, and she gave up the opportunity to use those years to find a better partner for herself, or just be happier on her own--because of me.

It's hard to see that as doing a kid a favor.  That's not to say staying together for the kids doesn't work well sometimes.  It seems like in those cases it's more of a general dissatisfaction than any true ire, contempt, pain, trauma, or other heavy issues and feelings, so the parents are able to co-exist as--like someone about put it--business partners.

Even then, I'm pretty sure I'd resent the lack of sex for a decade or so while I stuck it out for the kids.  Unless 'business partners' sometimes bone? 

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2023, 04:21:48 PM »
My parents stayed together longer than they should have, and while there were no really bad effects, it was definitely a strong influence in my swearing off marriage forever.

They didn't stay together for the kids though, their situation was that my dad was quietly biding his time for about ten years until the divorce outlook improved for him - mostly, my mom eventually re-starting her career after being a SAHM so he would not be stuck with spousal support. The child support situation was also quite favorable when he pulled the plug because one kid lived with each parent, so it was mostly a wash. Both of them are now remarried to more compatible people.

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2023, 05:07:42 PM »
Villanelle, business partners still have sex:)).

curious_george

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Re: Are FIRE aspirants more likely to get a divorce than an average person?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2023, 06:44:58 PM »


Barf. I would hate to be married to someone based on my priorities when I was 25! Lol. I was a superficial disaster who cared more about my friends being impressed by my partner than how they actually treated me.

Recipe for fucking disaster.

Dated some really hot guys though...some of whom still have all their own teeth!


Shhhh, DH was only 25 when we met. I robbed the cradle to get an old fogey and we have both changed over the past decade plus, but so far we have mostly grown together. Rough patches documented in journal...

Lol. My wife and I got together when we were teenagers.

I documented my life and marriage some in a journal here, then realized I probably should not talk about it, even in the context of an anonymous online journal. So I deleted the journal. Some things are better left unsaid.