Author Topic: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?  (Read 28652 times)

Russ

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2014, 02:34:49 PM »
Am I doing something wrong?
are you still riding on the sidewalk?

frugalnacho

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2014, 02:43:01 PM »
Am I doing something wrong?
are you still riding on the sidewalk?

Only when there are pedestrians to mow down.

Timmmy

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2014, 02:45:54 PM »
I used to work at a zoo and spent 8+ hours a day on a mountain bike every single day in all weather conditions, including snow, for 5+ years.  My very unscientific testing says that there was efficiency.  Based on how I felt at the end of the days that I wore them and days that I didn't.  I'm guessing it has as much to do with forced foot placement as anything else but there are advantages. 

And this is an environment that had me frequently stopping and removing my feet from the pedals.

I still use them every chance I get.  I think they work better (for me) and therefore they do (for me).

DollarBill

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2014, 02:58:57 PM »

Quote
That's because you are probably not wearing lycra...

This gear can shave a few seconds off when walking to the store.



GuitarStv

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2014, 03:17:24 PM »
Uh oh.  I wear Lycra and go on long bike rides, but also prefer platform pedals.  WHERE DO I BELONG???

skyrefuge

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2014, 03:31:47 PM »
The fact that racers have been racing with their feet tied to the pedals for as long as racers have been racing suggests that there's more to it than marketing BS or simply the fraction of power production during the upstroke.

Have you read 'Moneyball'? It's baseball, not bike racing, but it's a similar competitive environment in which large sums of money are earned by those who can perform with superiority. Yet 'Moneyball' points out how, even after decades of competition, in which you assume the best and truest ideas would quickly rise to the top, backward and unscientific ideas about how to best play the game continued to hang on, due to "tradition", "feel", and stubbornness.

Another example would be "the granny shot" in basketball. Physicists and Rick Barry believe that shooting free throws underhand rather than overhand would improve the shooting percentage of many NBA players, yet no one has done it for decades, because they don't want to look dumb doing a "granny shot".

I'm not claiming clipless pedals are useless for bike racers (I haven't read the referenced paper), I'm just saying that you might be surprised at what a poor job "survival of the fittest" actually does at finding the truth in an competitive environment. I know I was.

EastCoastMike

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2014, 04:27:55 PM »
I do have one more nagging question.  Why the heck is an assembly where i have to clip my feet into the pedals called clipless?

skyrefuge

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2014, 04:37:50 PM »
I do have one more nagging question.  Why the heck is an assembly where i have to clip my feet into the pedals called clipless?

From this post upthread:

"The original foot retention system was toe clips with straps. This newer system eliminated the need for any clips, thus were dubbed clipless. The fact that one "clips into" clipless pedals certainly does confuse the matter though."

IMO, the problem began way back when someone called a big metal/plastic cage that goes around your foot a "clip" in the first place.  Why the hell would you call that a "clip"? A clip is something small and compact, not that big ol' weird-looking thing. It's like they knew that "clipless" pedals would be invented sometime in the future (with something that could more-reasonably be called "a clip"!) and they wanted to fuck with us all.

sol

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2014, 04:38:41 PM »
I do have one more nagging question.  Why the heck is an assembly where i have to clip my feet into the pedals called clipless?

Haven't we had this conversation before?

daveydinner

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2014, 04:41:43 PM »
Any theoretical performance advantage to foot retention is blown away by five seconds of futzing with the pedals at an intersection.  Ever notice the old bum with grocery bags on the handlebars getting off the line faster than the CommuteRacer clipping in and out? It's the same way shaving grams off your tires by going skinnier can actually make you slower because you have to slow down for driveway lips, etc.

You'll fall while still getting used to them. You have to bring extra shoes everywhere. Special shoes for riding are un-mustachian in that you are locked in to an overpriced shoe system that your shop wants you to keep coming back for. meanwhile platform pedals last forever, never go obsolete, and allow you to ride in flip flops, rainboots, whatever the season calls for.

hdatontodo

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2014, 08:45:42 PM »
Seeing the bike accident thread tonight reminded me of my bike accident I had in high school while using toe clips.

I was at the bottom of a steep hill quickly going through an intersection. I went to shift to the small front chainring when the chain fell off it. As I was looking down, trying to get it back on, I didn't notice that a Dodge Dart had stopped in front of me. I hit it while going about 20mph. I flew forward hard enough to raise the rear tire. My chin hit the hex nut that used to be used to fasten handlebars. My toe clips kept me on the bike which crumpled a bit before settling back down on its tires. I only needed stitches under the chin. The bike frame was toast. I think I would have flown onto the trunk if my feet weren't secured.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2014, 10:27:45 PM »
I absolutely LOVE them for mountain biking, never used them on a road bike. Though it does help with hill climbs and in wet conditions where traditional pedals might slip.

dragoncar

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2014, 12:19:58 AM »
There is no way you could ever achieve an efficient pedal stroke for racing without toe clips or a clipless pedal. There are other advantages, but that's not the point, so let's not argue about things we're ignorant about.

Very well, I accept.  You did mean for that personal insult to be a challenge, right?  Okay good, just checking.

Consider the following quote from this primary source:  "while torque during the upstroke did reduce the total positive work required during the downstroke, it did not contribute significantly to the external work done because 98.6% and 96.3% of the total work done at the low and high workloads, respectively, was done during the downstroke."

I can find about ten more scientific papers that say the same thing (and so can you) but I thought I'd let you have a turn next.

I'm a scientist and open to having my mind changed by counter-evidence.  It's just that everything I've ever read about clipless pedals says that when you actually measure total power output scientifically (aka correctly, so you get a measurable answer) they don't help.

I've never used clipless in my life, but maybe it's not a peak power thing, but a sustained power thing.  If you use a muscle 5% less, you can probably use it longer before exhausting your glycogen (or whatever the right bro-science word here is).  Like when I go on the elliptical machine that has the arm thingies, now my legs don't have to work as hard and can go longer.  Using more total muscle mass for the same amount of work output means that, you are depleting your local energy stores slower.

fallstoclimb

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2014, 08:14:25 AM »
I used to work at a zoo and spent 8+ hours a day on a mountain bike every single day in all weather conditions, including snow, for 5+ years.  My very unscientific testing says that there was efficiency.  Based on how I felt at the end of the days that I wore them and days that I didn't.  I'm guessing it has as much to do with forced foot placement as anything else but there are advantages. 

Hang on HANG on!  You worked at a zoo and were paid to be on a bike all day?  What is this amazing job and why did you leave it??

Timmmy

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2014, 08:24:49 AM »
I used to work at a zoo and spent 8+ hours a day on a mountain bike every single day in all weather conditions, including snow, for 5+ years.  My very unscientific testing says that there was efficiency.  Based on how I felt at the end of the days that I wore them and days that I didn't.  I'm guessing it has as much to do with forced foot placement as anything else but there are advantages. 

Hang on HANG on!  You worked at a zoo and were paid to be on a bike all day?  What is this amazing job and why did you leave it??

The pay mostly.  It was an amazing job.  It was working security for a zoo.  Something that if I was FI I would consider going back to part time.  I literally rode around a zoo all day on a bike.  There was work involved but mostly it was riding around and talking to people, watching animals, and enjoying the outdoors. 


dios.del.sol

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2014, 09:12:23 AM »
The fact that racers have been racing with their feet tied to the pedals for as long as racers have been racing suggests that there's more to it than marketing BS or simply the fraction of power production during the upstroke.

Have you read 'Moneyball'? It's baseball, not bike racing, but it's a similar competitive environment in which large sums of money are earned by those who can perform with superiority. Yet 'Moneyball' points out how, even after decades of competition, in which you assume the best and truest ideas would quickly rise to the top, backward and unscientific ideas about how to best play the game continued to hang on, due to "tradition", "feel", and stubbornness.

Another example would be "the granny shot" in basketball. Physicists and Rick Barry believe that shooting free throws underhand rather than overhand would improve the shooting percentage of many NBA players, yet no one has done it for decades, because they don't want to look dumb doing a "granny shot".

I'm not claiming clipless pedals are useless for bike racers (I haven't read the referenced paper), I'm just saying that you might be surprised at what a poor job "survival of the fittest" actually does at finding the truth in an competitive environment. I know I was.

Very good point. Well taken.

BlueMR2

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2014, 10:17:56 AM »
I absolutely LOVE them for mountain biking, never used them on a road bike. Though it does help with hill climbs and in wet conditions where traditional pedals might slip.

That's funny, I'm the exact opposite!  Having used them road biking until I got annoyed and started taking the platform bike.  I never use them mountain biking though.  I can't get in/out of them fast enough as I frequently use my feet on the rocks/trees that biking on/over/around.

Jack

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2014, 10:51:00 AM »
IMO, the problem began way back when someone called a big metal/plastic cage that goes around your foot a "clip" in the first place.  Why the hell would you call that a "clip"? A clip is something small and compact, not that big ol' weird-looking thing. It's like they knew that "clipless" pedals would be invented sometime in the future (with something that could more-reasonably be called "a clip"!) and they wanted to fuck with us all.

Indeed: they should have called the original things "toe straps" and the new ones "strapless" (or even "clips").

You have to bring extra shoes everywhere.

This is false; I debunked it earlier. There are cycling shoes that work just fine to walk around in.

projekt

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2014, 11:53:09 AM »
From my experience, of commuting up a very steep hill every day, two things made me more efficient.

1) switching from a comfort bike with 1.75" tires at 35PSI to a road bike with 33mm tires at 100PSI. (The bikes were about the same weight)

2) switching from platform pedals and sneakers to clipless pedals and bike shoes.

Changing tires was definitely more important,

Nevertheless, sneakers are a terrible bike shoe. I think the clipless pedals are fine, but the best advantage was having a hard interface between the ball of my foot and the pedal. If I had just bought the SPD shoes and never put the cleat into them, I'd have been happy as a clam.

On the other hand, it hurts to walk around for a long time in a rigid shoe.


FreeWheel

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2014, 08:39:23 PM »
For the penny pinching cyclist who still wants to obtain that extra 5% of pedaling efficiency:

http://youtu.be/aMZULw08bh0

I both laughed cuz it's funny, and applauded because done right it would actually work. (for a while)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:40:56 PM by FreeWheel »

FunkyStickman

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2014, 08:17:56 AM »
A complete mid-range clipless setup is $150 at least, and toe clips are practically free.

Who said anything about "mid-range?" Even the cheapest clipless pedals -- even used ones -- are perfectly serviceable as long as you're not a weight-weenie. The more expensive ones don't actually work better; they just weigh less.

But, compared to other retention methods, they're still more expensive. Just as effective + more $$ = no bueno for me.

It's personal preference, but I will be quick to facepunch people who swear they make you faster or are more efficient over other foot retention methods. They just don't, it's been scientifically proven.

I would never argue that clipless pedals are more efficient than toe-clips, but I would argue that they can be easier to use:
  • With toe-clips, your shoe can get caught on the pedal when you try to slide your foot into the toe-clip (especially if the sole has any kind of textured tread on it)
  • At least with my preferred style of clipless pedal, both sides are symmetrical so it's always right-side-up (see next paragraph)
  • There's no strap to drag along the ground if I decide to ride without being clipped in for a while

Can be easier to use, possibly. Depends on what you're accustomed to. I've been riding with toe cages for 20 years, I'm very accustomed to them, they're very easy to use for me.

This Thread, the TL:DR Version:

If your commutes are long, some kind of foot retention is generally recommended, but not needed.
What kind of foot retention you use depends on your preferences and your budget.

Are they worth the money? Only you can decide that, but you should try more than one setup before you decide.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 08:20:59 AM by FunkyStickman »

skunkfunk

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2014, 10:08:00 AM »
Are they worth the money? Only you can decide that, but you should try more than one setup before you decide.

NO. Only MY opinion is the right one, quit trying to say it might not be the same for everyone.

sol

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2014, 12:56:40 AM »
NO. Only MY opinion is the right one, quit trying to say it might not be the same for everyone.

I tried to explain this thread to my wife.  She said "why don't they all agree that people should just do what they think is best for themselves?" and I had to laugh and then try to explain how arguing on the internet works.  She clearly doesn't get it.  The above poster does.

big_owl

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2014, 08:31:19 AM »
Absofuckinglutely worth it.  I could never go back to regular old pedals except for basic commuting on a flat surface.  You can do bunny hops and stoppies so much more easily when mountain biking, and it makes the bike feel more like an extension of your body vs. something you're just sitting on.  I don't even know how somebody could really mountain bike without them.  I've been mountain biking with them for 20 years and in all my *many* falls my feet have always automatically disengaged from the pedal - just like a ski binding.


johnny847

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2014, 11:23:05 AM »
The above posters have said basically all I was going to say, but I don't know if anybody's mentioned this particular situation - it helps for me when I switch from high to low gear, coast for a little bit, and then start pedaling again. Sometimes, I don't coast for long enough, and I'm still going way to fast for me to pedal and actually accelerate my bike at that speed, so I put a lot of force on my pedals. Without clipless, my feet would fall off the pedals (I've done this plenty of times before I used clipless). It's kinda like how when you go to lift a suitcase you think is full of heavy stuff, and instead it's empty.

Is it worth it for a commute? Perhaps not. I ride recreationally too, so I use them. I have the hybrid ones that are flat on one side and clipped on the other. I usually leave one foot clipped in when I stop at intersections. If I struggle to clip in right as I take off again, I just use my clipped in leg to keep pedaling until I can clip in my other.

EDIT: I recommend the Shimano SH-56 cleats. They are multi-directional release cleats, so it's easier to pop out of them than standard cleats. Highly useful if you want to use clipless for commuting.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 11:33:22 AM by johnny847 »

poorboyrichman

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2014, 03:18:50 PM »
I love this thread!

Only downside I see to pedals is negotiating stationary traffic as it isn't as easy to put your foot out in the event of an 'unbalance' as I found out to my detriment yesterday evening!

Etihwdivadnai

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Re: Are "clipless" bike pedals worth the expense?
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2014, 05:21:25 PM »
EDIT: I recommend the Shimano SH-56 cleats. They are multi-directional release cleats, so it's easier to pop out of them than standard cleats. Highly useful if you want to use clipless for commuting.

+1 for SH-56 "multi-release" cleats.

I was a dyed-in-the-wool toe-clips + straps user for 20+ years.
But I decided to give "clipless" pedals a try about 15 years ago.

I bought Shimano M324 pedals which are SPD clip-ins on one side and ordinary "rat-trap" pedals on the other and could accept full toe-clips + straps on that side.
They came with SH-56 cleats.
I did fall-over, embarrassingly, once but only the once.
I am not sure that I experience any greater efficiency when using the SPD clip-in mechanism.
But they do greatly improve the feeling of "connected-ness" to the bike.

I rapidly switched to double-sided SPD pedals,
but with the reverse side SPD clip-in position occupied with pedal reflectors
and I have *never* looked back.

I then "loaned" the half-and-half M324's to my spouse who was rather skeptical and dubious af first.
But she  too was a rapid convert.

I have since lent those M324's to another 10 people
and nearly all of them have been converted by their trial of SPD pedals

Also, using SPD (as opposed to Look, ATAC, Time, Candy or SpeedPlay variant cleat + pedal variants)
there are lots of comfortable and emminently walkable-in SPD shoes, boots, sandals etc.

I would describe myself as a leisure + shopping + road-commuting cyclist and for these "clipless pedal systems" seem fine / really good for my use.