ANYONE SEEN THE HBO DOCUMENTARY "PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK" ?

[Cassie]

I never watch Oprah on the OWN channel but I did and she did a show with Maria Shriver. They were talking about the very working poor and what a tough time they were having (ie a Mom supporting 3 kids on $20,000/year.  It will be a continuing documentary featuring different families.  Watching the show there were a few obvious things they could have done to reduce costs-kids drinking sodas in car, etc.  But generally it was sad because often the adults were working long hours for very little $ and trying to juggle everything with the kids, etc. Did anyone else watch it and what are your thoughts?

[Cheddar Stacker]

I caught the first 15 minutes of it last night and went through these various emotions/thoughts:

Single mom family:
1) Sadness/empathy for their situation.
2) Confused where the father was in the picture-eventually found out.
3) Happy to see she seemed to be really good at her job.
4) Outraged that they would have a dog, then realized it looked like she was dog sitting as a side hustle, so shame on me and good on her.
5) Pissed off that Oprah/Maria would get upset that people questioned her getting an expensive salon haircut and color. Why can't we question this? It's a luxury, not a need. Yes she needs an outlet, but find one that better fits your financial circumstances.

Chicago Family with 6 kids:
1) Dad makes between $1,000-2,500/month take home....ok I guess he must be in sales or an industry that's hit or miss right... quote from Dad "I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and long hours as well" and it looks like he was in construction. What am I missing? No one works 30 days/month and makes $1,000, and how can you make 2.5 times as much some months if you work every single day. If those are 8 hour days he makes $4/hour.
2) Mom is working on her masters in social work so she's trying to improve their situation, but she's getting a post-grad degree to earn a very low wage? Basic math does not support this, and they need to fix themselves before fixing their community.
3) Mom volunteers 2 days/week to help people less fortunate than her. On the surface that sounds commendable, but they have 8 people living on about $20K/year and she's volunteering? And Oprah/Maria/entire audience are applauding her for it!

I had to turn it off. I'm sorry, maybe this website/forum has jaded me a bit, although I've always thought this way to some extent. Maybe I'm being too judgmental, but I just don't understand how people can be so financially irresponsible. End rant.

Sorry, I missed the rest of the show so I can't comment. Were there any redeeming moments? Did Oprah give a bunch of handouts at the end to stay true to form?

[Cassie]

As far as the social work mom volunteering this could help her land a paid position once it is done. You never know who will recommend her to someone in the field.  Also I lived pretty close to Chicago and you could not get a social work job unless you  had a master's degree and even then the pay was very low. Now that may have changed since that was in 1990. It was one of the reasons I ended up with a few more graduate degrees. Although in other parts of the country social workers can get good jobs with just a BA. Obviously the dad could not be working that much and making so little $. One of her family members encouraged the other woman to do the expensive hair thing & I agree that was totally insane.  I never let my kids drink soda except for holidays & b-days so I was annoyed with that.  But actually what I was referring to is that they have made a documentary of these people's lives & will feature one family a week for an hour.  I then went to HBO on my cable and found the series. Right now there is only one.   

[frugledoc]

Why do people have kids if they can't afford it?

[Cassie]

Many times they can afford them when they have them but then life happens-divorce, death, illness, etc. I admit that some people are dumb and have kids they can not afford but for many I think it is just life happens to them down the road.

[warfreak2]

(I'm too British to have watched it, so my opinions are more worthless than usual.)

1) Dad makes between $1,000-2,500/month take home....ok I guess he must be in sales or an industry that's hit or miss right... quote from Dad "I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and long hours as well" and it looks like he was in construction. What am I missing? No one works 30 days/month and makes $1,000, and how can you make 2.5 times as much some months if you work every single day. If those are 8 hour days he makes $4/hour.

It's likely he has more than one source of work, and they pay at very different rates; he could be registered with a construction contracting company, but it's hit or miss. Maybe the rest the time, he works for an employer who illegally pays lower than minimum wage -  the kind of business that finds its labour each day by driving a pickup truck in the morning to a spot where illegal immigrants wait, looking for work.

Or maybe his paycheck is gouged by a loan shark, though that seems like the kind of thing that would have been mentioned on the show.

3) Mom volunteers 2 days/week to help people less fortunate than her. On the surface that sounds commendable, but they have 8 people living on about $20K/year and she's volunteering? And Oprah/Maria/entire audience are applauding her for it!

I think you're being very judgmental here. It's up to her how she finds satisfaction and fulfillment in her life. I imagine her perspective is that volunteering for two days a week is a more important contribution than working. I'd compare it to tithing while in debt; we might think it's silly, but to the person doing it, it's a moral obligation, and I don't think it's really our place to question.

Allow me to nerd out and compare it with playing a game in Difficult Mode. If the goal is to win, then surely any idiot should know it's easier to win if you choose Easy Mode, right? But winning on Difficult Mode is more satisfying and fulfilling, and it's up to the player which mode they choose.

Anyway, it's probably fair to assume that she and her family have thought more about it than we have.

[Cheddar Stacker]

You're right, too judgmental, but it just seemed to portray the situations as unavoidable, woe is me type stuff. I need to find a balance here and realize there are other ways to live life, I just choose not to live my life that way. That doesn't make my way right. Thanks for the reminder, and sorry to all for the nasty rant.

[ichangedmyname]

I am watching the actual documentary right now.

[ichangedmyname]

Actually they were married for 10 years, 3 kids, same dad.

[Cassie]

No -married to same man. He developed a drug addiction & things went downhill. YOu need to watch it before being judgmental. I actually felt sorry for these people because they were in a tough spot & working very hard.  They did a few stupid things but not major. 

[ichangedmyname]

No -married to same man. He developed a drug addiction & things went downhill. YOu need to watch it before being judgmental. I actually felt sorry for these people because they were in a tough spot & working very hard.  They did a few stupid things but not major.

Our replies now seem weird because it has been removed LOL

[DollarBill]

I didn't see the show but I can imagine how difficult it would be for a family of 3 on $20K (I wonder if that is before or after taxes). Even if it's after taxes that's only $1,665 a month. I'm sure she would qualify for some sort of subsidies.

Even my bare bones monthly budget is $1,200 a month and that's just for myself but with no debt (House & car paid off). There's really no way you could get ahead if you had to add rent and public transportation. I'm sure she didn't arrive there over night and could have made a few poor decisions but even if you mostly made good decisions it would still be difficult. 

[Sofa King]

Broke but keeps pushing out babies. Hard to feel sorry for people like that.

[Cassie]

Sofa King: had the babies when she was married & could afford them. Then hubby got drug addiction, etc. Watch the show. Dollarbill: they are getting free daycare which is really helping. She is going back to school to make more $ so things will be better.

[ichangedmyname]

Is this a series, I wonder?

[lexie2000]

Nope and considering the sources we won't be.

[Cassie]

Yes it is a series. The show with Oprah & M. Shriver was just talking about the series. The first documentary featuring one family is available now on HBO & each week they will feature a different family. Not sure how many they will do.

[Thegoblinchief]

Potentially interesting but not the kind of thing that I'd watch. Help them if they came to MMM as a case study? Absolutely. But sob story journalism has never done anything for me.

[MayDay]

I haven't and probably won't watch the series (no cable, is there any other way to watch newer HBO stuff that isn't on Netflix yet?)

Anyway, I don't know the details of these families, but you have to account for generational poverty.  When you grew up never learning to do basic life skills (cook, clean, basic financial stuff, and even more simple stuff like be able to speak well enough or be the right color to effectively navigate things like aid agencies, let alone more complex institutions like banks, no ability to navigate health care systems so no birth control) how can we expect people to suddenly acquire those skills as adults?  If the answer is education (ie, the public K-12 system) how can we expect teachers to educate students who come to school hungry, tired, with no home, unstable family, no clean clothes?

Its just not as simple as bootstraps (unless you are middle class or up, in which case BOOTSTRAPS!).  ''

This is a long read but I highly recommend it if you are interested in these issues.  It is about homeless children in NY.  http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2013/invisible-child/#/?chapt=1

[NinetyFour]

Oprah's net worth is over $2 BILLION and Maria's is over $100 million.  I don't think I could take seriously their attempt to understand the poverty of a single mom.

[prosaic]

1) Dad makes between $1,000-2,500/month take home....ok I guess he must be in sales or an industry that's hit or miss right... quote from Dad "I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, and long hours as well" and it looks like he was in construction. What am I missing? No one works 30 days/month and makes $1,000, and how can you make 2.5 times as much some months if you work every single day. If those are 8 hour days he makes $4/hour.

The only people I know who claim to work 7 days a week and make so little are people who are addicts/alcoholics blowing a lot of secret money on substances.

[Flaneur]

Oprah's net worth is over $2 BILLION and Maria's is over $100 million.  I don't think I could take seriously their attempt to understand the poverty of a single mom.

Oprah is the daughter of a single teenage mother; she grew up poverty stricken in Mississippi.

[luigi49]

Many times they can afford them when they have them but then life happens-divorce, death, illness, etc. I admit that some people are dumb and have kids they can not afford but for many I think it is just life happens to them down the road.

Excellent point

[Cassie]

I was a social worker for awhile & I can tell you that it is not just inter-generational poverty but others that fall into it due to circumstances beyond their control. I think the point was to educate people that a lot of this exists in America today. They are not sob stories but real life stories & I am sure many are inspirational as people strive to overcome obstacles.  While they might benefit from a MM case study as was mentioned more income is likely the key for many.  I think it is important as a country that we acknowledge that some people are in this point of their lives through no fault of their own. While some people can save to avoid this type of situation if bad things happen others are living on the edge due to really no fault of their own.

[chicagomeg]

I didn't see the show but I can imagine how difficult it would be for a family of 3 on $20K (I wonder if that is before or after taxes). Even if it's after taxes that's only $1,665 a month. I'm sure she would qualify for some sort of subsidies.

Even my bare bones monthly budget is $1,200 a month and that's just for myself but with no debt (House & car paid off). There's really no way you could get ahead if you had to add rent and public transportation. I'm sure she didn't arrive there over night and could have made a few poor decisions but even if you mostly made good decisions it would still be difficult.

A family of three doesn't pay federal income taxes and would get a sizeable EITC refund as well.

[Cassie]

It was a family of 4.

[Cassie]

Yes she is and I think the real plan is to educate which is why I brought up the thread to begin with.  I only lasted 4 years as a social worker-just so tough & sad. Until you have personal experience it is all too easy to just pretend there are many reasons that are their fault so you don't need to worry about. Some times that is true but often it is not.

[luigi49]

I was a social worker for awhile & I can tell you that it is not just inter-generational poverty but others that fall into it due to circumstances beyond their control. I think the point was to educate people that a lot of this exists in America today. They are not sob stories but real life stories & I am sure many are inspirational as people strive to overcome obstacles.  While they might benefit from a MM case study as was mentioned more income is likely the key for many.  I think it is important as a country that we acknowledge that some people are in this point of their lives through no fault of their own. While some people can save to avoid this type of situation if bad things happen others are living on the edge due to really no fault of their own.

That explains the insight.  Thanks for informing us and I agree that not everything you see out there is black and white.  It is a scary situation and sometimes some people need a lift.

[Cassie]

 I really appreciate the people that do that work for years- I worked with abused kids and after 4 years just could not do it anymore. I actually transitioned into helping adults with disabilities get back into the workforce.  I spent my career doing that & it was very worthwhile.  Again it was a mixed bag-some it was their fault -most it was " but for the grace of God go I."

[Abe]

This is off-topic, but please don't post every new topic in all caps.

On topic - I recently overheard an older couple complaining how schools don't teach kids how to cook or balance budgets anymore. It came as a surprise to me that there was an expectation at one point that these topics would be taught by someone other than parents/grandparents. Though it quickly devolved into a "government is destroying everything" rant, I think their basic point about the slow ebbing over generations of those skills necessary to function is a good one. From a society's point of view it makes sense to teach these in schools since children with less talented parents deserve a chance to learn those skills. I know from personal experience that my parents' inability to budget drove me to a more frugal lifestyle, but I could've easily been like them without other role models.

[Daisy]

I really appreciate the people that do that work for years- I worked with abused kids and after 4 years just could not do it anymore. I actually transitioned into helping adults with disabilities get back into the workforce.  I spent my career doing that & it was very worthwhile.  Again it was a mixed bag-some it was their fault -most it was " but for the grace of God go I."

I met a social worker that also had to leave the profession because she felt frustrated that she could not make a difference in people's lives. I think she dealt with foster children. It's a sad situation and those tasked with trying to resolve these societal issues are carrying a big burden. Thanks for your work in this area!

I also like to use the term "but for the grace of God go I". I feel blessed to have had a strong family that taught me many of these life survival skills. Even as immigrants, they were able to start anew and rebuild their lives in a new country. So the opportunities are there for people to succeed, but sometimes our own mental and emotional shackles can get in the way. Even people from "rich" families can have these issues.

How many of us know people that should know better, make great salaries, and yet still live paycheck to paycheck...although for the time being they are not suffering because their world has not collapsed around them. I guess this is the audience MMM targets. They can do better and should do better. Their limitations are of their own making.

However, there are others that start in a much more disadvantaged situation and don't have the financial or emotional direction to think otherwise. Some may be stuck in a generational repetition of destructive behavior, but they don't realize how they can get out of it - or don't have the tools to do it. This is very sad.

I would like to spend some time on these issues during ER. Although hearing your (and the other lady I met) frustrations doing this kind of work is very disheartening.

[Cassie]

I think you need to find the work/population that resonates with you.  It has to be people that you have empathy for but not sympathy in order to be effective.  I had a long career helping people (24 years) and really enjoyed it. It just has to be the right match.   

[MrsPete]

I had to turn it off. I'm sorry, maybe this website/forum has jaded me a bit, although I've always thought this way to some extent. Maybe I'm being too judgmental, but I just don't understand how people can be so financially irresponsible. End rant.

Sounds like an interesting show.  I wish I'd seen it, but since I don't have HBO I guess I never will.  The comments here make me think of the book Angela's Ashes (which, by the way, I heartily recommend).  Its the story of a dirt-poor Irish family, and I was constantly amazed at their ineptitude with money.  For example, the parents couldn't feed their children, but they constantly have money for cigarettes.  The main character can't wait to have his First Confirmation because he's going to get so much money ... his big plans for the money: Go to the movies.   

It's hard not to be judgemental when you see people doing stupid, stupid things with money.  The concept of being non-judgemental is based on the idea that all ideas and lifestyles are equally valid, and that doesn't seem to be true. 

Anyway, I don't know the details of these families, but you have to account for generational poverty.  When you grew up never learning to do basic life skills (cook, clean, basic financial stuff, and even more simple stuff like be able to speak well enough or be the right color to effectively navigate things like aid agencies, let alone more complex institutions like banks, no ability to navigate health care systems so no birth control) how can we expect people to suddenly acquire those skills as adults?  If the answer is education (ie, the public K-12 system) how can we expect teachers to educate students who come to school hungry, tired, with no home, unstable family, no clean clothes?

Yes, generational poverty and first generation poverty are a world apart.  I came from a home situation just as dire as the ones described here, BUT what I had going for me was that we were first-generation poor.  My mom made some bad choices:  Marrying an alcoholic, having more kids than they could afford, allowing her job skills to fall stale so that when the marriage imploded she couldn't go back to work.  BUT in the midst of all this, we had grandparents, aunts, and uncles who were still middle-class.  They helped us kids, and they showed us an example.  And my mother had middle-class values concerning going to school and working.  I didn't see it when I was a teen, but NOT coming from generational poverty was a HUGE benefit in my life.