Author Topic: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?  (Read 10528 times)

GoCubsGo

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2019, 01:58:53 PM »
I just got back from a week in Estes Park (my families third time there).  I live in the Chicago Burbs (I can see the Sears Tower off in the distance right now).  Every time we go to Estes Park my wife I debate if we could live there or not.  We love the scenery and hiking and grandeur (as pointed out above by a an above poster).   But after our third trip we decide we could never do it. 

The Safeway is the only store, which I would have a hard time having as an only choice. We are spoiled by super high end supermarkets, multiple Costco's and low cost ethnic market stores.... all within 7 miles. Lack of great restaurants.  Not mustachian I know, but I don't think I'd want to live "FatFire" in a place without top notch dining.  I suspect all the "handmade" ice cream shops get their ice cream from the same place in Estes Park (we got the EXACT same food allergy card in every store with the same flavors).  We did go to one good Italian place.

That said, locals are generally always nice to us tourists and pretty patient with our flat land questions.  The biggest jerk I met lived two suburbs away from me in Chicago.  We really wanted to like a small mountain town and Estes Park is an amazing one but the city life is too ingrained in us and we would probably be disappointed.

Watchmaker

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2019, 02:25:04 PM »
Sure, but when you adjust to per capita rates, many small towns are no safer that big cities. Part of city life is that you "live with" more people, so there will be more crime in your area. But whether you are actually any likelier to be a victim of a crime is more complicated.

(Anecdotal... but what I'm using for my own frame of reference:)

Per neighborhoodscout crime stats, big city says 11 violent crimes per 1000 people, per year......  versus small town, 6 violent crimes per 1000 per year.  So half'ish?  Property crime numbers per 1000 are closer together, but the big city is still significantly worse.  Also, (in my experience), crimes are more likely to be reported to police (and included in statistics) in a smaller town than in a big city.  I've certainly been brushed off by CPD when trying to file a report -- and got vibe from them of "we got bigger fish to fry than this... I'll humor you and write this down, but don't expect anything to be done about it..."  and so the next (several) times, I didn't even bother to report...

I don't disagree that statistically small towns have lower violent crime rates than big cities, but the distributions are large. I looked up my own town on cityrating.com; it shows a violent crime rate around 1 per 1,000. A nearby, equally small, town averaged 12 per 1,000 over a 4-year period.



Schaefer Light

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2019, 03:07:49 PM »
Summary - I have seen so many people move here and then leave 1-2 years later. It is not for everyone and the more reliant you are on the conveniences of modern life the more you will want to leave and return to that.
If you are willing to live a little differently than it is absolutely amazing.
There was a time when I thought I might want to live in the islands, but then I started thinking about how many of the conveniences of modern-day America were missing there.  Plus, everything is more expensive in the Caribbean.  In a way, moving to an island would be similar to moving to a small, remote town in the mountains.

ice_beard

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2019, 11:53:23 PM »
If anyone ever spent any time on climbing or skiing forums, this has been discussed ad naseum over the years.  But since many of the great ski and climbing forums are now defunct (RIP Teletips :-( ) most of that useful information has been lost for ever.  I'll put in my few cents worth having lived in a lot of different places....

I've lived in a "mountain town" (South Lake Tahoe, CA), Chicago, Anchorage, AK, Germany, the Bay Area and a few other places.  I went to high school in a town of about 7500 people and my dad was/is a well-known figure in town. 

There is a big difference between "mountain towns" and plain 'ol small, rural towns.  Mountain towns attract people looking for adventure (also some posers who think they are adventerous).  Towns that have ski resorts or other seasonal attractions have a much more transient population.  Think recent high school or college grads who want to do something fun before getting a "real job" and work at a ski resort for a season or two.  Or work at the rafting, mountain bike, etc. company.  This is a cool gig when you are young and only need to cover rent, beer and weed money.  After a bit, most people realize working for shit wages and a ski pass and eating ramen and easy mac isn't cutting it.  Or they start stringing together several seasonal/part time jobs trying to make it work.  Some stay, most don't.  So you have this revolving door of cheap labor coming and going.  We ended up leaving Tahoe for careers.  We moved there with jobs we could work remotely and when those contracts ended we did work entry level jobs at the hospital but eventually had to leave for nursing school. 

Most cool, mountain towns simply don't have a good economic base to support a thriving, well balanced community.  Most jobs are in the leisure/service sector and there might be jobs but the wages suck and housing is un-cheap.  Hence you have a lot of population turnover.  There are a few exceptions...  contractors always seem to do well in towns with lots of absentee homeowners because they rip them off primarily because they can.  Tahoe is a great example of this.

Second homes are another part of the equation...  Many of the great ski towns of the west are now much less vibrant than they were twenty years ago.  Skiing has shifted from a user experience based model (about skiing, duh!) to something else controlled entirely by real estate interests (Read "Downhill Slide" by Clifford for the details).  Many great mountain towns have half, or more, oftheir homes sitting vacant 50 weeks out of the year while their owners live in NYC or SF and show up for a week over Christmas and a week or two in July. 

This has had a double negative effect on many small ski towns as this drives up the local real estate costs (so "normal" people like plumbers, teachers, mechanics, etc) can no longer afford to live there.  And now those homes that once had "normal" people living in them are now empty, so your town has literally had the life sucked out of it. 

This has changed a little bit now that some people can live and work remotely, but this doesn't change the price of real estate, making it more affordable for the type of people who make a community feel like a community. 

As for plain rural towns, I can't add too much.  It's annoying as hell that everyone seems to know everyone's business and there just isn't any anonymity.   I can't go anywhere with my dad without him getting into a discussion with someone.  That's kinda cute, but also kinda annoying.  I only lived there in high school and people don't know me, they ask who I am and why do I look so much like my dad.  I go there for deer hunting in the fall, that's about it. 

As others have mentioned, towns of 75-200k are about the sweet spot for me.  Anchorage, AK was 200k and is the city with the best mountain access in the United States.  And it's a city. 
I enjoyed living there for five years.  In Anchorage, you are always ten minutes away from Alaska. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:03:42 AM by ice_beard »

Adam Zapple

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2019, 07:28:03 AM »
I hope more people chime in who have left highly populated areas for small mountain towns.  When I leave my 80k population small city (NYC metro area) and get into the mountains of VT and NH I feel such a sense of tranquility and freedom.  It is palpable.  I can never figure out if this is because I am transitioning to vacation mode or if I would actually enjoy living there.

When I visit the local stores I can never decide if I enjoy having people talk to me for 5 minutes about what Swiss cheese to buy or not (happened recently).  I feel kind of sorry for the young people I see in areas where there are few employment or entertainment options.  I also wonder if I would be able to find friends with similar values/interests.

Watchmaker

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2019, 07:47:48 AM »
I hope more people chime in who have left highly populated areas for small mountain towns.  When I leave my 80k population small city (NYC metro area) and get into the mountains of VT and NH I feel such a sense of tranquility and freedom.  It is palpable.  I can never figure out if this is because I am transitioning to vacation mode or if I would actually enjoy living there.

I think it's at least partially the effect of being on vacation. I get the reverse as well: an adrenaline rush when I arrive in a big, international city like NY or London. I assume that wouldn't last were I to live there.

When I visit the local stores I can never decide if I enjoy having people talk to me for 5 minutes about what Swiss cheese to buy or not (happened recently).  I feel kind of sorry for the young people I see in areas where there are few employment or entertainment options.  I also wonder if I would be able to find friends with similar values/interests.

Part of what I like about being in a small town is that I am forced through necessity to hang out with people I otherwise might not. When I lived in a college town, my social circle were mostly all about my age, mostly highly educated, similar politics, mostly working in the sciences. Now I socialize with twenty year old art students, my 89 year old neighbor, conservatives and liberals, etc. So for me (weirdly) living in a small town broadened my horizons.

Watchmaker

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2019, 07:53:14 AM »
If anyone ever spent any time on climbing or skiing forums, this has been discussed ad naseum over the years.  But since many of the great ski and climbing forums are now defunct (RIP Teletips :-( ) most of that useful information has been lost for ever.  I'll put in my few cents worth having lived in a lot of different places....

...

This post helped me understand some of the changes I've seen happen in places like Telluride, thanks!
 

wbranch

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2019, 01:45:53 PM »
Two years ago we moved to a mountain/lake/tourist town that has a population of about 50k, local "metro" area is ~150k and almost 600K for the larger statistical metro area. We rarely go to the larger city that is about 35 miles away. Just the airport a few times a year, and maybe 2-3 times a year for "entertainment" events. 90% of our work/socializing is within a few miles of home which would be hard in a smaller town. Other small towns further into the mountains have longer winters/worse weather and more of the other small town issues mentioned in other posts.

Recreational access was big for us. We can do a 6 mile round trip, 1,800 ft elevation gain hike minutes from our front door. Mushroom and berry picking 20 mins from our front door on public lands. Taking a drive of 1 to 4 hours us access to 100s of lakes, rivers, millions of acres of national forest, wilderness areas, and also national parks in US and Canada. There are popular areas where there are always tons of people. But we have been able to find plenty of places for hikes/camping where we only see a handful of people peak season. Late spring or fall we have been in some amazing areas with nobody else around.

We had been debating moving to a town of 10k-25k in population but for potential job changes, airport access, entertainment, and other factors we decided on the bigger town. Two years in we can't see ourselves moving anywhere else. There is always that dream of a small cabin in the mountains but I tell myself to wait at least 5 years to decide.

saguaro

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2019, 02:49:35 PM »
As for plain rural towns, I can't add too much.  It's annoying as hell that everyone seems to know everyone's business and there just isn't any anonymity.   I can't go anywhere with my dad without him getting into a discussion with someone.  That's kinda cute, but also kinda annoying.  I only lived there in high school and people don't know me, they ask who I am and why do I look so much like my dad.  I go there for deer hunting in the fall, that's about it. 

This may have largely changed with people more mobile but probably still true in some places.  Growing up in a large city I found smaller neighborhoods could operate similar to small towns like everyone knew everyone, knew you by your family, knew everyone's business, you all used the same local businesses.  This changed a bit in high school because I went outside the neighborhood to one of the largest high schools in the city but it could be annoying to always be called "So and so's oldest girl", or go anywhere without a parent getting into a discussion or my folks worrying about what other people will think if they see my boyfriend's car parked in front of the house too long. 

One good thing about going to that big high school was getting some anonymity.  Finally I could deal with folks that didn't remember me as a kid, or know who I was because of my family, it was freeing to not have to deal with that.

Just Joe

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2019, 08:11:43 AM »
I think if a person is a bit of a homebody then a LCOL small community can be fine in 2019. Same media available everywhere these days. The internet for reading and shopping and socializing.

I guess the question is does the town offer the amenities that are important to you? Our town has everything we want day to day and there are several big cities to visit on a day trip or an evening date night if we want.

On a regular basis though we don't have to deal with the big city crime, big city congestion, big city wear and tear, or the grime that jamming millions of people into city causes.

When I was a kid and visited this town it was a backwards place dominated by a few businesses and the families that owned them. Today I'm sure those same families are somewhat influential but they've been diluted by newcomers as the area has grown. I find this place to be easier to live in than the big cities I've lived in prior to this. Find a college town. To us it makes all the difference.

Also, I would not likely want to live in a place that is on its way down vs on its way up. Worse local services, perpetual local budget shortfalls, the problems that people develop while stubbornly hanging on to a dying place...


24andfrugal

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2019, 02:47:18 PM »
I know you asked if people regret it, but I'm going to give a different perspective. I'm from the suburbs/bedroom community in the Northeast, and I lived in a small mountain town in the Southeast of a little less than 2500 people. We moved back to the Northeast to be closer to my family, but going back to that area is in our 5-year plan.

I think it depends on the town you're looking at (obviously), but moreso, it depends on you. Small town life isn't for everyone, and if you're not that type of person, then you won't like it. I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. Someone earlier in the thread talked about getting "yelled at by a strung-out sex worker" - that would be my cue to move. That day. And I wouldn't mind if the pharmacist knew the color of my apartment - I'd enjoy it. It's nice knowing people care about you.

...to me. Getting away from the craziness of a large city is one of my main motivations for pursuing FIRE. YMMV. Know thyself, and act accordingly.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2019, 04:36:31 PM »
Summary - I have seen so many people move here and then leave 1-2 years later. It is not for everyone and the more reliant you are on the conveniences of modern life the more you will want to leave and return to that.
If you are willing to live a little differently than it is absolutely amazing.
Plus, everything is more expensive in the Caribbean.

Depends, the Bahamas has no annual property tax or income tax.  The people that work there are hardly well off and live extremely frugal.  It CAN be a very, very inexpensive place to live.  But if you want to go out and what not, it can also be very expensive.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2019, 04:39:28 PM »
I know you asked if people regret it, but I'm going to give a different perspective. I'm from the suburbs/bedroom community in the Northeast, and I lived in a small mountain town in the Southeast of a little less than 2500 people. We moved back to the Northeast to be closer to my family, but going back to that area is in our 5-year plan.

I think it depends on the town you're looking at (obviously), but moreso, it depends on you. Small town life isn't for everyone, and if you're not that type of person, then you won't like it. I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. Someone earlier in the thread talked about getting "yelled at by a strung-out sex worker" - that would be my cue to move. That day. And I wouldn't mind if the pharmacist knew the color of my apartment - I'd enjoy it. It's nice knowing people care about you.

...to me. Getting away from the craziness of a large city is one of my main motivations for pursuing FIRE. YMMV. Know thyself, and act accordingly.

We are the same way.  When we do retire, it'll be in the smaller town where we have our second home now.  No congestion, no traffic, relaxed.  Yet close enough if you want to get out to a nicer restaurant at the larger town/city nearby.  And about 90 minutes from several major metro areas in different directions.  But I love being up there, because it's quiet - no road noise, no craziness.  It's great.  And it's not that small where you don't have all the typical conveniences of the suburbs.  Has everything.

DirtDiva

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2019, 05:52:56 PM »
We have lived in several small cities (pop up to 100k) and moved to a small mountain town 4 years ago (pop 5500).  No regrets here.

Hubs works remotely, I work at the local hospital.  We love the lack of traffic, the local bike culture, the endless all-season outdoor opportunities, the lively arts scene in our town, the scenery, and meeting lots of other people who also moved here with similar motivations.  There are tourists, but not enough to be annoying   Lots of transient young people working as raft guides and on the ski slopes.

Real estate is expensive, and it probably best to bring your own job.  I think some people are disappointed by the shopping options (I could care less). It’s a 3-hour drive to the airport, which is a hassle about 4-6 times per year.

But our overall quality of life is excellent. We love it.  We enjoy running into neighbors and friends and acquaintances at the grocery or on the street.

use2betrix

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2019, 07:34:50 PM »
Many people here mentioned Estes Park, including a member that lives there.

What are the opinions on nearby Loveland? It’s about 75k people, and within an easy drive to Fort Collins or Denver should the need for bigger city attractions be needed.

I worked for a company for two years that was based out of Loveland, and spent several weeks there. Much of my time there was spent working or at the cool little downtown area, but at that glance it didn’t seem like an area with a lot of potential and near the mountains.

ecchastang

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2019, 06:37:35 AM »
Many people here mentioned Estes Park, including a member that lives there.

What are the opinions on nearby Loveland? It’s about 75k people, and within an easy drive to Fort Collins or Denver should the need for bigger city attractions be needed.

I worked for a company for two years that was based out of Loveland, and spent several weeks there. Much of my time there was spent working or at the cool little downtown area, but at that glance it didn’t seem like an area with a lot of potential and near the mountains.
Loveland is not a bad small city.  Access is decent, but you will deal with fairly heavy traffic doing anything, whether heading to the mountains, Ft. Collins, or Denver. 

Dave1442397

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2019, 10:37:14 AM »
ETA I just got back from Tahoe and Mammoth and I'd live in Tahoe. Lots to do and not sleepy at all ;-).

I'm also checking out mountain towns, and so far I haven't found anywhere I like as much as Tahoe (Incline Village in particular). It seems to have everything I'd want in a retirement locale, including zero state income tax in NV. I'd prefer to be on the Nevada side of the lake, and I like the North Shore, but it's not cheap. I'd consider living on the Gardnerville side of Kingsbury Grade, or Galena at the bottom of Mt. Rose.

Cassie

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2019, 11:50:22 AM »
We have lived in all different size towns. The smallest was 2k and the biggest a million. Right now we are in a area of 350k which is perfect. Lots of things to do all the time. 45 minutes and we are in the mountains. The mountain towns here are very expensive and get a ton of snow in winter.

Dave1442397

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2019, 06:28:08 PM »
I started a thread a couple of years ago about cheap mountain ski towns and got great responses so will post it here. I deleted my comments for privacy reason so kind of of broken up.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/best-(and-cheapest)-mountainski-towns-to-move-to-after-fire/msg1103353/#msg1103353

Thanks, I'll have to read through that.

Monerexia

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2019, 08:48:17 PM »
^ same thing with cities, if you don't like people being impersonal and rude, if you value a relationship with your neighbours, if you don't like noise, if you hate traffic, and like to leave your doors unlocked, then a city probably isn't for you.

I just came back from a few days deep in the woods with my father, it's gorgeous and unbelievably peaceful, and I understand why he loves it, but I can't stand it for more than a few days. I say this as I sit on my balcony in my highrise apartment overlooking a major city street filled with loud traffic.

I would rather be screamed at by one of the strung out sex workers on my main street on my way to the bank rather than have the pharmacist mention that they were chatting with my mom the other day about my new apartment and have them give their opinion on the paint colour I chose. The former happened yesterday here at home, the latter happened over the weekend in my home town, I literally don't even know the damn pharmacist, but I was picking up my mom's meds and found out that my mom had been showing him photos of my new home. WTF?

NOTE: the small town experience is 1000 times more intense when your parents live there too.

Yes, this. Much more psychological space in larger cities.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2019, 01:49:09 AM »
We are living in Norway, ina small town 30 km (20 miles) from the capital. The capital area has approx 1 mil people. The third biggest city in the country is your goldilocks size, between 50K and 100K. Just to give you a perspective.

We are planning to relocate for FIRE, next year. And I'm thinking really hard about to which place. We are outdoorsy people and hate city noise and traffic congestions. But we like reasonable fast access to a things like hospital, airport, shops with more choice and some bigger events. We would like to live along the coast for coast related hobbies and foraging fish, and the are should have a forest and mountain hiking trails available. And CC skiing trails, which is not easy to combine with coast. It would be nice to be able to meet other people with similar hobbies, but I see that there are mushroom (my hobby) clubs all over the country that I could join. We plan to first rent a house for a year or so in such a place, to find out if we like it and can tolerate the climate, which can be tough along the coast.

Most places we are looking for are really small. But I think we should also look at what we in Norway call cities, which are towns with under 50K people. Your advice to look at places with import of external people or students sounds like a good advice. In Norway, Tromsø might be such a place that attracts adventurers and ski bums. But As the winter there lasts for 10 months a year, it is not my first choice. This winter, after we sell our house, we plan to rent somewhere for a short time first, near some good skiing trails, and will look for somewhere to live later this year.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Anyone regret moving to smaller mountain town?
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2019, 06:30:13 AM »


I would rather be screamed at by one of the strung out sex workers on my main street on my way to the bank rather than have the pharmacist mention that they were chatting with my mom the other day about my new apartment and have them give their opinion on the paint colour I chose.

But the main problem here is that your mother shares your private life with (random?) people she meets in her town. My mother is like that as well and I have become a bit more relunctant to tell her things, as I know it will he shared with some of the 12K people in the town where I grew up. Like my FIRE plans. She will get the sabbatical version.
Some people just live to talk and when they don't have some many own adventures, it is there children they talk about. No matter that those children are in their forties.

I would also not consider to move back to the town where I grew up, even though it is quite nice.