Author Topic: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?  (Read 13041 times)

clarkfan1979

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anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« on: June 10, 2017, 09:52:57 PM »
Based on my limited amount of poker experience, it seems like poker is 75% skill and 25% luck. My first time playing poker in a casino, I placed 3 out of 45 in 2010. I played on-line for about 6 months but didn't like it because I can't read people. My third time playing in a casino was today and I placed 6 out of 24. I haven't learned the math, but I'm very good at reading people. I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology. Would it be worth it to play more and learn the math?

One of my friends from high school moved to Las Vegas, played poker 40/hours week and made around 40K/year. He said that he was good enough to win at the smaller games, but not good enough to win the bigger games. Because he could make 60-80K in his corporate job, he quit after 2 years.

I would only consider it as a side gig. The most amount of time I'm willing to invest is one night a week around 4 hours.


PDXTabs

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 10:11:14 PM »
I have a co-worker that used to play poker online when it was still legal in the US. He would play 6 hands at a time, just knowing the odds, and folding most hands. He made enough to cover his mortgage, but was making half his hourly rate at work. After a while he quit.

Eludia

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 10:37:29 PM »
Sort of?  I consider it a profitable hobby more than a side gig. 

I play a few times a month, maybe 10 hours maximum.  I play relatively low stakes no-limit games only - 1/2, 1/3, 2/5 that sort of thing.   I win much more often than I lose, most of the time I come home at least a couple hundred dollars richer.  Games at that low a stake are incredibly easy to beat if you play well and pay attention to what is going on around you.  Doubly so if you're sober and most of the table is not. 

I am relatively confident that if I wanted to and I played 2/3 times a week I could make a few thousand a month doing it.  But, then it probably would not be as much fun - and I make way more doing work for myself than I do playing poker, so no need.



 

VolcanicArts

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 10:45:56 PM »
I've won a few thousand playing Ultimate Texas Hold Em the table game. I don't really like the regular poker much even though I go to casinos a lot as it is stacked against the player with lower starting assets, and one all in can convince you to fold good hands. I'm also not interested in the reading people aspect of it and prefer more of just the random luck element.

mxt0133

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 11:13:26 PM »
I too had dreams of playing poker for a side gig.  I actually gave it a go when I took a break from work when I moved out West.  I played, read up on some theory, started studying the math but in the end the variance was just too much for me.  In the low stakes games, people will chase and make sub-optimal decisions.  This is what you actually want them to do but for me the short-term variance was too frustrating.  In the end I decided to keep it has a hobby and play maybe 3-4 times a year as a recreational player.

For now I just watch other people play and keenly follow their hand analysis.  My favorite YouTube vlog is listed below.  There are a few others I follow but enjoy Andree Neeme's the most.

https://www.youtube.com/user/PokerScenes/featured

I have plans of playing low to mid stakes when I am FIRE at resort towns.  I actually have meet a few people that make make enough to fund their living expenses by playing during the peak seasons when recreational player like me just want some action during vacation.

But to get there I know I will have to gain more experience, study and put in work to beat the recreational players consistently.  Playing only 4 hours a week might take you a long time to get to a point where you can win consistently. This means you can identify good vs bad games, get the math down, and have enough experience where you know what lines to take based the situation your are in to get maximum value.

clarkfan1979

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 01:09:53 AM »
I think playing during peak tourist season makes sense to me. This might be what I experienced today. I played in a $75 buy-in tournament in Las Vegas today and I was really surprised by how bad some of the players were.

I'm a red panda

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 06:48:50 AM »
There was a guy a year behind my husband in his PhD program who supported himself playing poker.

The program chair didn't want to admit him because "he has a gambling problem".  The students in the program pointed out it wasn't really a problem when it was how he paid for his bachelor's degree.

dividendman

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 09:14:02 AM »
I plan on playing after I FIRE in August for a side gig.

I think everyone here has posted with too small a sample size to indicate you are a winning player or not. Luck is much larger than 25%. The edges in poker are very small, the variance is very high, and the rake is there.

In general you need about 100k hands to see if you're a winning player (i.e. to compensate for the variance), and even then you won't know by how much. Obviously the fewer hands the less you'll be sure if you are a winning player. Some people think 40k-50k hands is enough.

100k hands live, you get about 25-30 hands an hour at the smaller stakes games. This means you need to play about 4000 hours to find out and eliminate the luck. This is about two years of playing full time 8 hours a day cash games. If you're winning a lot, 25k or so hands can determine it (6 months full-time play).

I keep spreadsheet of all my play and at 2/5 I only win about $25  an hour with a per session (6 hr average session) standard deviation of over $1k. This is only across 20k hands or so since I work full time. If you crunch the numbers this  means that I've only won about ~15k but any particular session I could win well over a 1k or lose over that, hence the variance.

TL;DR - Don't play a few times and think you can win, keep all the stats and see if you can win, what the win rate is, and if you actually like poker enough to grind out small wins with massive variance
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 09:25:28 AM by dividendman »

Cap_Scarlet

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 03:04:19 PM »
I have played since about 2004 - online only and small stakes ($5 / $10).  I NEVER play cash games and only play sit n' go or tournaments.

I have played on five sites since 2004 and my one rule was $50 per site and if I lose that then no more.  I have never had to add any cash.

Generally I only make money playing tournaments as Sit n' go are too random - especially with the number of Russians playing at the moment. 

I guess I have made about $2,000 per year on average and I use the money for "special" purchases i.e. something I want but don't want it to come out of my regular budget.

When I retire I expect to dedicate one day a week to play

SwordGuy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 03:07:57 PM »
This guy apparently does.   Interesting blog, too.

www.Tynan.com

rocket354

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2017, 11:35:40 AM »
I played poker professionally for years, making six figures annually. Some people of course have done better than that, however many people have done much worse. I feel qualified to answer your question and address some concerns.

Poker is not 75% skill, 25% luck. You've been on a good run. Poker is 95% luck and 5% skill. It is the skilled-game equivalent to blackjack (without the card counting). As a winning poker player, you have a small edge overall and have to push it continuously and let the volume of hands move the needle in your direction. The swings are big. If you sit down at a blackjack table and play randomly you can still win tons of money. If you make intelligent decisions you can win tons of money a few times in a row. It's still a losing game. The reason people can win in the short-term is the odds are very close (about 52-48 house edge for an non-counting, otherwise optimal player). Poker is no different in that it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking you are a winning player even if you aren't.

That said, the 5% of skill in poker is very deep and for people who enjoy game theory and abstract concepts, it's a very rich and dynamic field. It's probably not worth going into too much detail about it at this point, but the game itself really is quite fascinating. The hard part is distinguishing between the skill and the luck. The best description of poker I've ever read is that playing a hand of poker is like playing a game of chess for $1 and then afterwards immediately flipping a coin for $10.

If you are willing to spend 4 hours a week, 1 night a week at poker, and, presumably, at low stakes, then you are unlikely to become a winning player. Note: that doesn't mean you won't ever win. But at low stakes and with very low experience, you will be paying a high rake to ride out the luck wave. At that low volume of play you can go months and be "up" but as time goes on things will change. You won't hit cards you've started to expect to hit, your opponents will hit cards that almost seemed impossible, and the timing of "good" events and "bad" events will align against you (you hit your 2-outer in a tiny pot, your opponent hits theirs in an all-in fest, for example). You will go through stretches where it will feel like you'll never win again. That's the psychological aspect of poker and the point at which many people who don't enjoy gambling for the sake of gambling pack it in.

You'll start realizing the game is much more complex than you've given it credit and that you are just standing on the precipice of the mountain of work and understanding it takes to become a winning player, even at smaller stakes.

I suggest you track your play religiously so that you don't lie to yourself. Being a losing player is fine (most people are) as long as it fits your budget. Some people spending $50-100 to go to concerts on the weekends, or to go eat at a fine restaurant. Others spend that same amount of recreational money on playing poker. If you're fine with that, continue. If not, then take the time to learn the game. So, to answer your question, yes it's vitally important to learn the math of the game if you want to be a winning player. Knowing the math is just one piece of the puzzle to being a winning player at anything other than un-raked home games. If you make it (which you may never know for sure) than congratulations. If not, then consider it a hobby expense and move on.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 11:42:34 AM by rocket354 »

Scortius

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2017, 02:21:52 PM »
I also played poker full-time professionally about 10 years ago (before moving on to grad school and a 'regular' life).  I primarily played small stakes no-limit short-handed hold 'em ring games (SSNL) and won at a rate that provided a middle class lifestyle.

The truth I found was that if you wanted to be a consistent winner, you had to devote a lot of time to the study of the game.  The landscape of the current 'en vogue' strategies was constantly changing.  Thus, to win you always had to be one step ahead.  You had to be able to figure out very quickly whether a certain players was going to be tight-aggressive, or loose-aggressive or just plain old crazy.  You had to be able to interpret the meaning behind a 'donk bet' or a preflop open raise-call when the current thinking behind those moves could shift monthly.

When I was successful, I tried to stick to a schedule of 2 hours playing and 4-6 hours of review and studying per day.  I felt that was the optimal level needed to stay fresh while in the game while also keeping abreast of current trends.  I was able to maintain success when I started grad school, but I eventually had to stop once my research became a larger part of my life.  At that point I felt I wasn't able to maintain enough of a feel for where the game was going.  Further, things did start to dry up more around 2009-2010 after the passage of the "Port's Act" that had a rider inserted that banned online poker in the US.  Now I think it would take me over a year to get back to the level I was at previously, and even then I wouldn't be as profitable as I was back then.

I think you could possibly get to the level where you could pull in a couple hundred per month with some intense study and a good understanding of probability, combinatorics, and game theory.  I don't think you could go much higher than that without making it nearly a full-time investment.  But, I've also been out of the scene for a long time so I could be way off...

Scortius

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2017, 02:28:54 PM »
Also, the fact that you keep harping on 'reading people' is a bit of a red flag.  Most of reading people in poker is using their past decision making to narrow down their possible hand ranges to better make decisions with positive mathematical expectation.  The whole idea of reading people's emotions and faces was not taken very seriously amongst the people I knew playing professionally.  In my experience that level of 'reading people' only provided an advantage at the WSoP and WPT level of events (along with the back-room Bellagio cash games).

You mention you're playing micro-tourneys.  Do you know what Gap Theory is?  If not, you are probably overestimating your level of skill and underestimating just how much luck plays a role in your recent successes.

boarder42

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 02:37:50 PM »
yeah there is not much reading people in poker ... its understanding what they've done previously and how they are betting and what you think their cards could possibly be in relation to what you need to make your hand that you think will beat them or how you can bet them off their hand - if they will give it up.  but some people will draw all the way to the river on a flush even when you're over betting pot odds which is a good thing b/c you'll stastically make money against someone like that over time. pot odds are pretty easy to calculate i dont remember the formula anymore b/c its been 7 years since i played seriously.  but you can make money playing poker.

i played poker all thru college.. paid for lasik with it ... i'd like to get back into the game but havent had the time to dedicate to it again.

to the guy saying he's made a few grand playing the table game.  you're just lucky if you play long enough you will lose money.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2017, 03:01:04 PM »
I have always wondered if being a professional poker player was like being a professional video gamer with a channel on Twitch. Most people don't actually make any money doing that, but they have a lot of fun.

Scortius

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2017, 04:45:05 PM »
I like to use the analogy of professional baseball.  There are a few superstars playing in the Majors making big bucks who get lots of visibility.  But, there are also thousands of people grinding away a AAA and AA lifestyle making a small but livable wage playing a game they enjoy.  Then there are the single-A players who can make some money on the side, but not enough to live on.  Finally, there are the recreational players who spend their own money to play in their Sunday co-ed softball games as a form of entertainment.

When it comes to eSports, I think the salary structure is even more lopsided.  There are probably less than 50 in any of the big communities (Counter Strike, CoD, LoL/DotA, Madden, etc.) that make serious money.  Then there are the hundreds or even thousands that play on Twitch or post videos on YouTube that barely make anything at all.

thenextguy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2017, 05:14:39 PM »
Playing poker is a brutal way to make a living. The freedom is nice, but unless you're at the very top of the field I think you can probably make more money in other fields.

clarkfan1979

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 11:50:44 PM »
On my last day in Las Vegas I placed 8th out of 35. I needed to be in the top 4 to be in the money.

From my perspective, it seems like I am in the top 20% with very little experience. However, I need to be in the top 10% to be in the money. However, my sample size is very low because I have very little experience.

I understand that it's a huge commitment to be in the top 1%. I have no desire to enroll in the WSOP and try to be on tv. If I went up against professionals, I'm sure that I would get crushed. However, it doesn't seem that difficult to take money from drunk tourists in poker tournaments.

Based on the suggestions, I will try to be honest with myself and track my play.

I wasn't really that impressed with my play. I was more surprised by how bad some of the players were.

When I suggested that poker was 75% skill, it seems like most people agree that I'm wrong. I accept that. I have no idea.

However, if a professional poker player goes against a beginner in 100 tournaments, how many times does the professional win?




clarkfan1979

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 12:31:28 AM »
I played poker professionally for years, making six figures annually. Some people of course have done better than that, however many people have done much worse. I feel qualified to answer your question and address some concerns.

Poker is not 75% skill, 25% luck. You've been on a good run. Poker is 95% luck and 5% skill. It is the skilled-game equivalent to blackjack (without the card counting). As a winning poker player, you have a small edge overall and have to push it continuously and let the volume of hands move the needle in your direction. The swings are big. If you sit down at a blackjack table and play randomly you can still win tons of money. If you make intelligent decisions you can win tons of money a few times in a row. It's still a losing game. The reason people can win in the short-term is the odds are very close (about 52-48 house edge for an non-counting, otherwise optimal player). Poker is no different in that it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking you are a winning player even if you aren't.

That said, the 5% of skill in poker is very deep and for people who enjoy game theory and abstract concepts, it's a very rich and dynamic field. It's probably not worth going into too much detail about it at this point, but the game itself really is quite fascinating. The hard part is distinguishing between the skill and the luck. The best description of poker I've ever read is that playing a hand of poker is like playing a game of chess for $1 and then afterwards immediately flipping a coin for $10.

If you are willing to spend 4 hours a week, 1 night a week at poker, and, presumably, at low stakes, then you are unlikely to become a winning player. Note: that doesn't mean you won't ever win. But at low stakes and with very low experience, you will be paying a high rake to ride out the luck wave. At that low volume of play you can go months and be "up" but as time goes on things will change. You won't hit cards you've started to expect to hit, your opponents will hit cards that almost seemed impossible, and the timing of "good" events and "bad" events will align against you (you hit your 2-outer in a tiny pot, your opponent hits theirs in an all-in fest, for example). You will go through stretches where it will feel like you'll never win again. That's the psychological aspect of poker and the point at which many people who don't enjoy gambling for the sake of gambling pack it in.

You'll start realizing the game is much more complex than you've given it credit and that you are just standing on the precipice of the mountain of work and understanding it takes to become a winning player, even at smaller stakes.

I suggest you track your play religiously so that you don't lie to yourself. Being a losing player is fine (most people are) as long as it fits your budget. Some people spending $50-100 to go to concerts on the weekends, or to go eat at a fine restaurant. Others spend that same amount of recreational money on playing poker. If you're fine with that, continue. If not, then take the time to learn the game. So, to answer your question, yes it's vitally important to learn the math of the game if you want to be a winning player. Knowing the math is just one piece of the puzzle to being a winning player at anything other than un-raked home games. If you make it (which you may never know for sure) than congratulations. If not, then consider it a hobby expense and move on.

To make sure that we are on the same page, when I say that poker is 75% skill, it means that skill is 25% above chance (50%). When you say poker is 5% skill, you are saying that there is a 5% advantage (above 50%). As a result, poker is 55% skill.

If poker is only 55% skill, it's hard for me to believe that the professional poker player would only win 55/100 tournaments when playing against a beginner.

I noticed two inefficiencies based on my small sample size. (1) Once a player folds, most of them stop paying attention to the game. They have very little interest on how the others are playing the hand. I found this to be odd. When we went on a break, I wanted to watch the end of the hand. The dealer was making fun of me for not leaving the table. He was like, "you folded, why are you still here?" Everyone else that folded was already half way to the bathroom. (2) many people seemed to lack very basic patience. Some players wanted to play almost every hand. Those were the players that seemed to get knocked out the earliest.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 12:46:09 AM by clarkfan1979 »

LANCELOTNYC

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 07:05:39 AM »
Poker does have a meaningful skill component, so provided you have the financial stamina to resist cash flow fluctuations (long periods of losing money) and your skillset does not decline through mental anguish/stress, you should make consistent money over the long term.

rocket354

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 09:54:06 AM »

To make sure that we are on the same page, when I say that poker is 75% skill, it means that skill is 25% above chance (50%). When you say poker is 5% skill, you are saying that there is a 5% advantage (above 50%). As a result, poker is 55% skill.

If poker is only 55% skill, it's hard for me to believe that the professional poker player would only win 55/100 tournaments when playing against a beginner.

I noticed two inefficiencies based on my small sample size. (1) Once a player folds, most of them stop paying attention to the game. They have very little interest on how the others are playing the hand. I found this to be odd. When we went on a break, I wanted to watch the end of the hand. The dealer was making fun of me for not leaving the table. He was like, "you folded, why are you still here?" Everyone else that folded was already half way to the bathroom. (2) many people seemed to lack very basic patience. Some players wanted to play almost every hand. Those were the players that seemed to get knocked out the earliest.

Heads-up tournaments are different from 9- or 10- person cash games. NL is different from limit. Hold'em is different from 7-card stud. One hand is different from a series of hands. Depending on how you want to define "poker" you will get a different answer of luck vs skill.

I define luck as the part of poker that is 50/50 and skill as the rest. Far brighter minds than mine have concluded that if you take the absolute best player in the world and set him/her against the absolute worst player in a heads-up, NL tournament, then the worst player could still win about 1/3 of the time. All he/she would have to do is go all-in every hand. So that difference (66.6% - 33.3% = 33.3%) is the amount of skill in that particular game. Thus, a heads-up, NL hold'em tournament could be classified as (rounding) 67% luck, 33% skill.

That's a tournament, so a series of hands. In a single hand, it's closer to 95% luck. It's only once that small edge is applied many times over that the skilled players rise to the top. Back to the blackjack example, BJ is approximately 52-48 in favor of the house, assuming no counting but otherwise optimal play. That's a 4% house edge. The house as a whole can go an entire month, dealing many tens of thousands of hands, and still be at a loss. It doesn't happen often, but it does. On a single hand, anything can happen--it's indistinguishable from luck. The longer one plays, the greater the chance of the house winning. Over years, the house has a very clear advantage (as proof--look at the palaces built in the desert due to the house edge). So is the house edge 4%, the advantage in a hand? Or is it 100%, the advantage over many years? I take the former. And that's the definition I apply to poker.

This is a very big topic. You are a beginner. You have some definite insights--yes players SHOULD be watching hands get played out, and those who do will likely be better than those who don't. That you do means you have some level of passion for the game. That's great. However, you can be better than 90% of players and still lose money. Because of the rake. Again, this is a very big topic.

I'm not here to rain on your parade. Yes, people can, have, and will continue to make money and sometimes very good money at poker. You have a long way to go before you can consider yourself to be a consistently profitable player. I'm saying that to help guide you. Poker is a game at which it's very, VERY easy to fool oneself. There are a lot of elements to consider, the math, reading the table, reading the situation, short-term vs long-term thinking, understanding how big a part the rake plays, and how luck and randomness can last a long time. Reading players, ie, peering into their soul, is probably the absolute smallest part of the game, as others have mentioned.

I wish you the best of luck. Just be prepared for some bumps along the way. 

Scortius

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2017, 10:54:47 AM »
On my last day in Las Vegas I placed 8th out of 35. I needed to be in the top 4 to be in the money.

From my perspective, it seems like I am in the top 20% with very little experience. However, I need to be in the top 10% to be in the money. However, my sample size is very low because I have very little experience.

I understand that it's a huge commitment to be in the top 1%. I have no desire to enroll in the WSOP and try to be on tv. If I went up against professionals, I'm sure that I would get crushed. However, it doesn't seem that difficult to take money from drunk tourists in poker tournaments.

Based on the suggestions, I will try to be honest with myself and track my play.

I wasn't really that impressed with my play. I was more surprised by how bad some of the players were.

When I suggested that poker was 75% skill, it seems like most people agree that I'm wrong. I accept that. I have no idea.

However, if a professional poker player goes against a beginner in 100 tournaments, how many times does the professional win?

You definitely can be a winner in these small sit-n-go tournaments without a ton of experience.  And yes, half the players at Vegas playing in them are going to be quite horrible.  But, you are still probably not playing winning poker at this point.

One thing a lot of moderate players get wrong in tournaments like these is that they measure success based on how far they got, regardless of whether or not they got into the money.  Unfortunately as you noted, the top 20% is just as valuable as the first one out.  What you may not realize is that it's often better to be out earlier than to try and hang on 'to sneak into the money'.  Due to the exponential payout structure of most tournaments, you don't want to be playing for the top 10%, you pretty much only want to be playing for first.  That takes a completely different approach.  You need to be willing to play more aggressively earlier on in order to build a stack large enough to push people around once you get to the bubble stage.  The side effect of this means that you may lose early, but as you just noted, it's no worse to go out first than it is to go out just before the money.

This is why I bring up concepts like Gap Theory.  If you want to start winning money at these tournaments, you should read up on exactly how to do so from the 2+2 catalog.  You don't do so by trying to 'make the money' most of the time.  You do so by trying to win first place more than your share.  These short tourneys also have an insane blind structure, plus they go from being full-tabled to short handed by the end.  You'll need to know how to adjust your play as both situations change.  The style that gets you to the top 20% will also make sure you don't make it to the top 5%.  Plus, if you do make it to the end, heads-up poker with large blinds is a completely different beast.  You can definitely learn all of this without too much trouble, but you do need to really sit down and go through the literature to understand how and why it all works the way it does.

As for how well the pros do, I think the best of the best probably win somewhere to 2x to 5x their share of entries (increasing with the size of the tournament, decreasing with the blind schedule).  For a 20 player sit-n-go, your goal might be to get first place twice in 20 tries.  Given that the players in those tournaments in Vegas are horrible, you might be able to do even better than that with some practice.  Remember, you'll need to make the money one extra time for every ten plays or so just to break even given the vig.

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2017, 11:37:27 AM »
I have been a relatively successful small time poker player over the last 15 years.  I have done it as a hobby and by no means am I a very good player.  i am better than the average bad player. I am pretty decent at recognizing those better than me at the table and tend to stay away from them unless I have a good reason to play.  I think you are 100% correct that if you can play basic strategy you can usually walk away with a little bit of money at a $1/2 or $1/3 table.  What this means is that you will likely over many many hands win a few dollars an hour.  Is this worth your time and effort?  That is for you to decide.

Personally I love the game of poker and am willing to play 6-12 hours straight.  I love the game and the strategy behind it.  I love the personalities at the table.  But I do not kid myself.  I make more money working a few hours at my job than a whole week of playing poker.  If the plan is to make money as a side gig playing poker, I would rather work an extra 6 months before FIRE and not have to rely on that side gig.

Poker can be brutal especially when you rely on it to pay rent or put food on the table.  It is especially brutal when the variance is not on your side and you end up in a long loosing streak.  My advice is to play for fun, track your wins and loses and maybe after a few years of experience you can say that you are profitable.  But do not rely on it for an income.  Create a poker account of 20 times your buy in and play with that money only.  See how long it lasts or if you can increase it 50 times your buy in and consider moving up in stakes.

Rosy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2017, 12:15:43 PM »
This guy apparently does.   Interesting blog, too.

www.Tynan.com

Interesting to see how other people approach life - cool blog - thanks. SwordGuy

dignam

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2017, 12:26:16 PM »
I've known people to do it for at least a side gig.  Personally I've been playing since about 2001, mostly recreationally.  In cash games I generally walk away with more money than I came with; my history in tourneys is spotty.  I have a tight aggressive style so I fold the majority of hands.  One of my problems is I get bored after 3-4 hours (maybe I'm playing too small of stakes) and will play garbage hands (think 7-2 offsuit) just for laughs.

rocketpj

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2017, 12:46:29 PM »
I played micro and small stakes LHE profitably for a few years.  It really is a long game of making micro decisions.  Taking it seriously is a very good way to stop enjoying it over time.

I started with $40 and learned/lucked my way up to a few thousand, all online poker, probably 200k hands overall.  I reached my 'Peter principle' point where if I was going to continue to be a winning player I would have to spend a lot more time and effort improving my play and getting better.  And by that point I was bored of it as a hobby, so instead I cashed out. 

I still play friendly poker games with my friends sometimes, but that is a different thing.  I'd consider playing in a tournament if I had the time, but with no more than a 1% expectation of winning any real money (1% is not a bad expectation).

NoVa

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2017, 08:43:54 AM »
I know someone who makes a reasonable living at it. They play in smaller casinos in the west coast, live games only. Basically taking money from tourists and people who think they are professional players. It gives a lot of time flexibility, but it's definitely a job for them. Very bright, disciplined person.

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2017, 09:10:56 AM »
I've been playing regularly for the past seven years.   Never had a losing year.  Last couple of years have made right around $20K each year playing around 900 hours a year.

Poker is a game of volume.  As the number of hands played reaches infinity, it is a 100% skill based game.  Knowing how to get the most money when you are ahead,  knowing how to lose the least amount of money when behind or knowing how to steal the pot from your opponent when behind.

Wandles

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2017, 11:12:12 AM »
I've been playing on/off for ~8 years and have taken poker very seriously over the past year and a half.  I still work full time but I plan to continue to study and play and get to the level where poker is bringing in money once I am FIRE.  Last year I was a break even player, but if you factor in the training materials I purchased I was down.  This year I had a 5 figure score in January so I'm up for the year.  I'll be in Vegas for a week during the WSOP though so obviously that could change.  I track all my expenses and have poker as one of my budget line items.  My goal is to consistently be clearing a profit after all poker expenses by 2019. That would make me FI although that's still before my planned FIRE date.  If you're not enjoying studying poker and working towards becoming a better player it's probably going to be hard to be a consistent winning player. 

Don't let that deter you though.  If you enjoy playing and can comfortably fit it in your budget go for it! There's nothing wrong with playing just for fun and viewing it as an expense. It's a hobby that could potentially kick back some money which is not always the case with hobbies!

Also if you start to get results you can start to sell your action which reduces your expenses.  I view it as a mustachian way to stay in the game for lower cost.  True, when/if you get that 6+ figure score it'll hurt to part with a chunk of it but hopefully that's not why you're playing.

partgypsy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2019, 09:47:24 AM »
I'm not a poker player. Just a random observation. My father was in the restaurant business, and after work a couple times a week would play cards with other workers. It was a regular thing. And I remember as a kid my mother's parents as well as one of my great grandfather would come over and they would all play poker. With the chips and then cashing them in afterwards (one was worth a nickel, one was worth a dime, another was worth a quarter). Anyways while I never got into it, according to my Dad he was good enough it would supplement his tips. And just fond memories of my family enjoying the game, with just enough cash to make it "interesting". anyways while they always seem to have a good time, people on tv who are playing poker don't look like they are enjoying themselves. It doesn't look fun. It looks like a grind. There are other things I would rather spend (hours upon hours) on than getting good at cards.
otoh both my uncles were decent at pool. My grandparents had a pool table in the basement so they played all the time. Good enough to take cash in random pick up games. One of my uncles would "cheat"by playing a mediocre game first, and then another one "how bout this time for money?"

ps looks like the spambots are out.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 09:52:01 AM by partgypsy »

PJC74

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2019, 11:01:26 AM »
Been playing poker for over 30 years.  The golden years of online poker (2000-2010 there about) are gone. Back then, especially after the Moneymaker effect, the games were so soft it was sick.

Now the online sites (lower tier sites now, not like A tier sites like  Pokerstars, Ultimat bet, etc are full of either bots, collusion, and better players.

Live action  is tougher today as well. Back when I started playing, 1/2 the table would be donks. Now you're lucky if there are a couple players that everyone is targeting.

Factor in drive to and from casino, casino rake, tipping dealers, even winning players are really grinding it out now. And the big disadvantage over online, you can't scale up by multi-tabling and seeing X100 # of hands you will see in the same session online.

Great hobby, but don't think you will make a 2nd career out of it.

HBFIRE

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2019, 12:17:21 PM »
Not poker, but Bridge.  That is, I am hired to play as a partner and on teams.  Bridge is not a money game like poker, its played for the competition (like chess).  There are a lot of older retired wealthy people who play and are extremely competitive -- they want to compete against the best and hence hire pros to help them out.  Sometimes they hire just a partner, but the really wealthy competive ones hire anywhere from 4-6 pros to fill out an entire team.  Bill Gates and Warren Buffet can oftentimes be seen at these tournaments as they are avid bridge players.  This is much better than playing poker for money as it's being paid for skilled services rather than winnings (though winning is needed to build a reputation).  In other words, it's guaranteed.  Oftentimes accommodations and restaurant meals are included.  However, it takes many years to get to the level to be good enough to be hired.  Rates for being hired range anywhere from $200/day for a local pro playing at a club for pure hobby (low end) up to several thousand/day+accommodations and a contract to play in all the major tournaments for the very best players in the world.  One billionaire hired two polish guys and two guys from Italy to move to Monaco.  He then paid all their living costs + 500K/year each to fill out a bridge team and represent Monaco in world bridge tournaments.  There are pros at all levels of the game -- everywhere from your local home game at the club, to the regional tournament in your city, to the nationals and all the way up to the world championships.  Basically you can be a pro at any level depending on your skillset.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 12:31:27 PM by HBFIRE »

partgypsy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2019, 12:18:47 PM »
As this story shows, no matter how good you are, to win the game, you need to be able to walk away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Karas
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 12:23:45 PM by partgypsy »

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2019, 04:46:30 PM »
Unrelated to poker, but related to gambling. My husband played craps a few times a year with some of his fun budget, in Las Vegas. Maybe 10 years ago, he was invited to a tournament. He won a lot at a tournament (six figures). We took some of the money & put it into our standard budget. With the rest of the money, he created a "Las Vegas" fund. He exclusively uses this money for craps tournaments & events. He is up quite a bit, but the money never enters in our budget, either with wins or losses. It is entirely silo'd, and is not "real" money, because neither of us have to worry about down games/trips or up games/trips. If it ever runs out, it will be over. He's been using this seed money for 10 years. While we don't discuss much about the total amount, it is much bigger now than it was. He has had times when the amount has dropped quite a bit as well.

We do, however, make great use of all the comps that he earns on the trips, and enjoy all of the benefits that go with that.

I'd feel more comfortable with an approach like this, where the money is clearly bucketed. I never want to be covering gambling losses out of my main budget. That's a huge no go for us.

meatgrinder

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2019, 03:13:46 PM »
Unrelated to poker, but related to gambling. My husband played craps a few times a year with some of his fun budget, in Las Vegas. Maybe 10 years ago, he was invited to a tournament. He won a lot at a tournament (six figures).

That's great that he won. Craps has the best odds in the house (outside of poker if you know what you're doing and counting at BJ) but its still not in your favor when betting pass/don't pass. Hate to be a Debbie downer but I wouldn't expect this trend to continue unless there is something special that tilts the odds in his favor at tournaments.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2019, 04:31:21 PM »
Unrelated to poker, but related to gambling. My husband played craps a few times a year with some of his fun budget, in Las Vegas. Maybe 10 years ago, he was invited to a tournament. He won a lot at a tournament (six figures).

That's great that he won. Craps has the best odds in the house (outside of poker if you know what you're doing and counting at BJ) but its still not in your favor when betting pass/don't pass. Hate to be a Debbie downer but I wouldn't expect this trend to continue unless there is something special that tilts the odds in his favor at tournaments.

@meatgrinder - he's played for 10 years out of the same stash, and is up quite a bit. That said, the odds are why it will never be a part of our "real money" budget. We take none of the winnings, and all of the losses must be covered out of the same stash. When it runs out, it runs out. In he meantime, we've had ten years of really sweet comps.

meatgrinder

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2019, 05:05:58 PM »
Unrelated to poker, but related to gambling. My husband played craps a few times a year with some of his fun budget, in Las Vegas. Maybe 10 years ago, he was invited to a tournament. He won a lot at a tournament (six figures).

That's great that he won. Craps has the best odds in the house (outside of poker if you know what you're doing and counting at BJ) but its still not in your favor when betting pass/don't pass. Hate to be a Debbie downer but I wouldn't expect this trend to continue unless there is something special that tilts the odds in his favor at tournaments.

@meatgrinder - he's played for 10 years out of the same stash, and is up quite a bit. That said, the odds are why it will never be a part of our "real money" budget. We take none of the winnings, and all of the losses must be covered out of the same stash. When it runs out, it runs out. In he meantime, we've had ten years of really sweet comps.

Nice! Factoring in the comps he must be way ahead then.  Sometimes when I'm in Vegas, I try to justify playing blackjack by thinking that the free casino booze makes up for the house advantage. 

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2019, 09:29:19 PM »
@meatgrinder - the comps have been fantastic. It's silly, actually. Some casinos have gone to a new comp model, where you only get the truly great comps if you are losing. When that happens at his preferred casino, it will be super sad times.

partgypsy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2019, 08:49:55 AM »
Unrelated to poker, but related to gambling. My husband played craps a few times a year with some of his fun budget, in Las Vegas. Maybe 10 years ago, he was invited to a tournament. He won a lot at a tournament (six figures).

That's great that he won. Craps has the best odds in the house (outside of poker if you know what you're doing and counting at BJ) but its still not in your favor when betting pass/don't pass. Hate to be a Debbie downer but I wouldn't expect this trend to continue unless there is something special that tilts the odds in his favor at tournaments.

@meatgrinder - he's played for 10 years out of the same stash, and is up quite a bit. That said, the odds are why it will never be a part of our "real money" budget. We take none of the winnings, and all of the losses must be covered out of the same stash. When it runs out, it runs out. In he meantime, we've had ten years of really sweet comps.

That's pretty much the only way to do it. If you have that gambling money, make it a silo and never ever dip into other funds to supplement it.
I think I have financial insecurity from the way I grew up. My Dad kept all the money in one bucket; everything was invested in his restaurants. And if enough money accumulated in the bank (sometimes there would be 100, 200K in the checking account) he would get itchy scratchy and invest it. Never stocks or retirement fund, some kind of business. My family went through 2 times where he ended up losing everything (late 80's, and 2007-2009). Despite making a lot of money over his life, since he never set any money aside (which drove my mother crazy), my parents have nothing for retirement. 
 

triple7stash

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2020, 02:34:41 PM »
I was able to put myself through college (played ~30 hrs a week in live games).  If you're really interested check out google twoplustwo forums.

clarkfan1979

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2020, 09:12:33 PM »
Since my original post, the book, "Thinking in Bets" was published by Annie Duke. She was a Ph.D. student in Cognitive Psychology around the same time as me in Social Psychology. The two fields overlap within the topic of "judgement and decision making", which I covered quite a bit in grad school.

I have listened to a few interviews and in my opinion, she is a legit academic that knows her stuff. She spoke about much of the same theory that I studied in grad school. When applied to poker, she made money. She was able to replace her grad school income by playing poker part-time. Let's call it 15K to 20K/year.

When she switched to full-time she did well. After doing well, she left the field and now coaches high level CEO's on how to make good decisions.

The principles that I learned in grad school about judgement and decision making can be applied to many things in this world. I think I can make a little side money playing poke in casinos. However, I have made much more money with real estate.

I will continue to dabble and track my progress when in casinos. However, my extra time is going to be applied to real estate and not poker.

I appreciate the comments from the players who have put in the time. The stories help put everything into perspective. 


Bloop Bloop

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2020, 10:46:46 PM »
There's a reason she's an executive coach and not a poker player.

Poker's a fascinating game, but there's no money in it. You have to be in the world's best to make a high six or low seven figure income. And you can be incredibly good at it and only make a solid 5 figure income.

If you're good at playing poker, you'll find other career paths which use the same skills and pay better.

triple7stash

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2020, 03:40:13 PM »
Poker's a fascinating game, but there's no money in it.

This statement is 100% false.

If you're good at playing poker, you'll find other career paths which use the same skills and pay better.

This statement is completely accurate.

If you’re looking for a fun side hobby to add some additional income I would highly recommend poker. If you’re looking for the highest ROI on your time, poker is far from it. Like everything else in life it’s hard to make broad generalizations. Online vs life poker is completely different and times have changed (for the worse) since Annie Duke player poker professionally.

Also if you’re seriously looking to make money instead of have fun (and your playing live poker), you have to play cash instead of tournaments.

vand

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2020, 03:21:47 AM »
Based on my limited amount of poker experience, it seems like poker is 75% skill and 25% luck. My first time playing poker in a casino, I placed 3 out of 45 in 2010. I played on-line for about 6 months but didn't like it because I can't read people. My third time playing in a casino was today and I placed 6 out of 24. I haven't learned the math, but I'm very good at reading people. I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology. Would it be worth it to play more and learn the math?

One of my friends from high school moved to Las Vegas, played poker 40/hours week and made around 40K/year. He said that he was good enough to win at the smaller games, but not good enough to win the bigger games. Because he could make 60-80K in his corporate job, he quit after 2 years.

I would only consider it as a side gig. The most amount of time I'm willing to invest is one night a week around 4 hours.

Poker is 100% skill and 0% luck over a large enough sample size.

However the edge you can typically gain in a game is tiny, and you need to spend a lot of time ekeing it out.

Worse, online poker is not a growing sector, which means there is less new fish money and more old shark money.

All in all, it's a hard way to earn "easy" money. Online player databases have also ruined the game.

I personally much prefer a live game in a social setting. As long as you keep the stakes negligable, win or lose, it is money well spent.

vand

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Omy

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2020, 07:21:23 AM »
DH plays cash games and has done pretty well. He studies the game and has tracked his wins and losses for the past decade. He wins more than he loses, but he doesn't win enough to cover our expenses. Winnings usually cover our vacation expenses so that's a plus (especially when you include the comps).

Smokystache

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Re: anyone make money playing poker as a side gig?
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2020, 04:09:14 PM »
For about 3 years I played online poker for money. Started with $300 and only worked up to higher tables when I had a sizeable cushion based on stats. I consider myself very risk-averse. I used software that tracked every hand I played. I would review those hands in detail on message boards devoted to poker. I read 15+ books on poker. (And because you mentioned your psychology background, I have a PhD in Counseling Psychology).

I got to the point where I had played tens of thousands of hands. To try to increase my earnings, I would play 4 tables at a time (which is actually pretty low for players who are trying to make money). I came out ahead - but it was peanuts. I'd hate to compute my hourly rate.

It's possible to make money. I had a PhD-classmate who would earn high 5 figures each year. But now he doesn't.

It was watching a non-poker documentary about BlackJack - "Holy Rollers" - that reminded me of the general futility in trying to gamble to make a living. These guys who were expert BlackJack players and taught others how to play, but would have days and weeks with negative returns. Overall they came out ahead, but there's a reason why the word "grind" is associated with poker and gambling. To press your advantage you'll need to play a huge number of hands. Given how slow in-person play at a casino can be, I can't imagine how this doesn't turn into a grind. Near the end I felt like a button-pushing monkey and any joy I had ever had for the game was gone. At least that is what happened to me.


 

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