Any Mustachians move from Midwest/Chicago area to Florida for FIRE?

[rantk81]

If you made this move when FIRE'ing, I've got some questions for you :)

My parents recently bought a "winter home" to do the "snow-bird" thing between Michigan and Florida.  I am contemplating Florida as my FIRE location (all year round.)


Weather:
I've only ever been in Florida a couple of times -- in the "winter", and the weather was absolutely beautiful.  Of course, the weather is probably scorching hot in the summer.  How big of an adjustment is it to go from a mid-western style 4-seasons to Florida?  I am looking at historical temperatures throughout the months for high/avg/low temperatures, comparing Chicago with the town in Florida where my parents live.  The summer temperatures seem to only be about ten degrees (F) higher than those in Chicago for the worst summer months.  And then the temps during the winter are absolutely fantastic.  I guess looking at a temperature chart over a year, and living through it, are two things entirely.  I do know that I absolutely hate the terrible winters in Chicago that seem to start early and linger on.  This past summer in Chicago seemed especially hot too, where I never really felt comfortable going outside.  I think in the last calendar year, I have spent about the least amount of time outdoors ever in my life.  (Of course, living in a condo without any outdoor-space of my own, is also a big factor in this...)

Flooding:
I am looking at real estate listings near my parents' place online (Redfin.)  Every property there lists a "Flood Zone Panel" and a "Flood Zone Date".  I tried to figure out what those mean by looking at the FEMA website, but like most government websites, it didn't yield much useful or actionable information.  In some of the suburbs of Chicago, there is some kind of "check" that mortgage companies do to determine whether or not you are in a "flood zone" and require the borrower to carry extra flood insurance (purchased from the federal government, I believe. FEMA?).  How is this done in Florida?  Are ALL properties subject to this in Florida?  If not, how would I check which ones are in riskier areas?  (I don't plan on carrying a mortgage, but I do like to know the exposure to flood risk ahead of buying a home.)

Cost of living:
Living in the city of Chicago, I have become almost numb to the prices of things.  When I visited my parents in a small town in Florida, I was absolutely baffled at how inexpensive many things were.  Did you notice any big-ticket things that shocked you as being more expensive in Florida than in the midwest/Chicago?  Again, I searched some websites on "cost of living comparisons by city" and of course, most everything was more expensive in Chicago.

Demographics:
There were a lot of older folks in the sleepy area of town where my parents bought their place.   I don't think this would bother me much, honestly.  If I'm retired too, then we might have some things in common :)  But seriously, I am perfectly happy to entertain myself going on evening walks or watching Netflix.


Any tips/thoughts anyone could share would be much appreciated.  I am not immediately ready to pull the trigger, but I am getting closer and closer.  Couple-years-time-frame most likely.  I will be visiting my parents again this winter for a few weeks for an extended holiday.  Perhaps doing some more real-estate-window-shopping :)

I don't think it is financially prudent to stay in Chicago for FIRE (nor do I really want to, anyway) due to the escalating cost of everything and the escalating violence.  (My property taxes increased over 60% in this past year, with a promise from the county that there is going to be another big increase next year... and I've been harassed so many times by random people, in any number of ways, that I've lost count.)

[oldtoyota]

We decided not to buy in Florida. It'll be underwater eventually.

In Miami, they already have the ocean come up through the very pipes that are supposed to be *removing* the water. The city of Miami calls this "problem water." I call it "the ocean."

One of many articles:
http://www.marketplace.org/2015/02/10/sustainability/water-high-price-cheap/rising-seas-threaten-south-floridas-drinking-water

Maybe you could rent so the water problems are not really your problems.

[ltt]

I read an article a several months ago--this was after we had been to Disney World and I went through the "oh, wouldn't it be fun to move to Florida phase."

It was very interesting.  It mentioned that people don't always manage to live in Florida very long--maybe a few years tops.  The number #1 reason was the weather.  Three months out of the year are quite good---the rest, not so much and a person really needs to learn to live inside for 9 months out of the year--think humidity.

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

It seems every where you turn tends to be some kind of water--swampy looking water.  Flying into the Orlando airport, there were small lakes/ponds/watery areas in between the runways.  I would look very closely at any housing areas before buying.

Look at crime rates where you are planning on buying.

Property seems reasonable though---and no state income tax.

[oldtoyota]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

I love the heat, so that never bothered me.

What you say about the animals is spot on. We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

You forgot to mention the cockroaches. They are HUGE. But you get used to them and at least they do not fly like the ones in Costa Rica.

[ltt]

Here is a link to one of the articles---there are a few hundred comments.  OP, please read through the comments about living in Florida--much more negative and positive.

http://www.stateoffloridaliving.com/florida-pros-and-cons/comment-page-10/#comments

[dignam]

I am close to Chicago and am with you about this summer; it was quite warm and humid.

As far as Florida, I've spent a considerable amount of time there (work mostly; oddly several weddings too).  Usually there in the summer and although it was hot, it was actually comparable to Midwestern summers.  Like you said though, winter is a whole different story...

One thing I noticed is of all the states I've been to (probably around 40), Florida has hands down, the WORST drivers I've ever encountered.  I'm sure it's because of the retirees, but something to keep in mind if you do a lot of driving.  I believe it's a "no-fault" state meaning no matter who caused the accident, fault is split 50/50.

That said, I would consider a move myself.  Not for a few years though because I really do love where I live, harsh winters and all.

[Nemesis.]

Definitely check it out during the summer before you move there.
I lived on the coast for close to ten years and it does get very hot and humid.

As for the drivers, I had a couple of close calls with elderly drivers. They tend to have poor depth perception and pull out in front of you from driveways.
And as my mom says, they are old, medicated and texting while driving! (She lives there now)

That said, I live in Houston now where red-light running is a constant occurrence!

It can be a great place to live, just do your homework.

[Mrs. PoP]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

There are screens on the house windows.

Not to mention having entire patios (in our case including the pool) enclosed in a screen cage is ridiculously common.   Kitty PoP considers our patio/pool cage his personal hunting ground so he takes care of anything that creeps in, but they're generally just lizards.  One (non poisonous) snake once inside the lanai in 7 years.  We leave windows and doors open quite often, even summer mornings if it's cooler. 

Also, in terms of weather, remember the coast will have fewer extremes in temperature than further inland - the ocean acts as a giant heat sink to moderate the temperature, so winter days are warmer and summer days are cooler the nearer you are to it.  An average summer day here, ~1.5 miles from the beach, is probably a low of 78 and a high of 90, with storms moving through in the afternoon and evening, generally coming from the Everglades and moving out to the sea.   Really not that bad. We generally get one or two truly cold days per year when I break out a wool coat because it's 40 or less at sunrise.

Flood insurance is pretty easy.  Use the fema maps to figure out the base flood elevation if you're in a flood zone, and then you get an elevation certificate to determine how much (hopefully) above the base flood elevation you are.  That determines your flood rates.  It also provides cool trivia like knowing how many inches above sea level your house is.  (159!)  though be aware the flood maps of most of coastal FL are due to be updated again in the next 3-5 years, so flood zone borders may be modified. Almost equally important, visit the property when it's raining or ask neighbors. Some streets are poorly designed and prone to flood, and you'd never know it if you bought in winter (dry season) without asking. 

[startingsmall]

We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

I spent the first 27 years of my life in Florida.... childhood in Sarasota (about an hour south of Tampa) and college/grad school days in Gainesville.

Yes, wildlife is everywhere. But really, like the above comment says, it wasn't a big deal. I remember canoeing in the Okefenokee Swamp with friends and periodically having to skip paddle strokes because there was an alligator head in the water where I would need to put my paddle. A little nerve-wracking, maybe, but they paid us absolutely no attention. I remember taking a bike ride on Payne's Prairie near Gainesville and having to take an unexpected rest break on the way back to my car because an alligator was sunning itself in the trail. Again, a bit unnerving, but really no big deal. We often had anoles in our screened porch and the occasional small non-venemous snake, but nothing problematic.

My only scary wildlife experience? I was out biking at Myakka State Park and came across a trap containing several wild hogs. This wasn't necessarily an uncommon sight... but apparently there were some untrapped hogs still lingering in the area. They started coming towards me in a bit of a hurry, so I turned my bike and high-tailed it out of there as quickly as I could. Really, that was my only scary wildlife experience in 27 years.

I would move back to the Sarasota area in a heartbeat. Summers in Sarasota are cooler than summers here in NC. Even though I'm only an hour from the Blue Ridge Parkway here, my home in Sarasota had a much larger number of hiking/biking trails within easy driving distance. Sarasota is much more bike-friendly than rural NC. Lots of free stuff to do all year round - festivals, sunset walks on the beach, lots of parks, etc. I would miss fall, but that's the only thing I would miss. Not sure if I'll ever get my husband on board with moving (met him here in NC and he refuses to leave!) but I'll never give up on trying!

(My husband is also totally freaked out by the alligators. Sigh.)

[MrMathMustache]

I relocated from downtown Chicago to just north of Ft. Lauderdale back in 2004 and don't regret it for a minute.  Summers down here aren't any hotter than those up north - the only difference is rather than a 'heat wave' that might last a week or two, ours in uninterrupted mid-90's+ from mid-June through mid-September, and the heat only starts to diminish appreciably in October.

You will miss autumn, but December through April more than makes up for it.  It's so easy living down here - no bitter cold, gray snow building up on sidewalks and parking lots, scraping car windshields, etc.  And the best part - you see the sunshine practically every single day - it's so energizing!

I only make it back to Chicago for a few days each year, any don't really investigate prices, but our sales tax is only 6% compared to the city's 10.75% (I think that's what it was when I visited last month), and there's no state income tax either.

[Cranky]

I grew up in Florida and now live in the Midwest.

I love Florida. I love heat. I hate winter.

That said, we decided to sell my mom's house on the Gulf side last year. I was sad to do it, but my sister and I agreed that neither of us will retire there. It just doesn't seem sustainable any more.

And in some ways, these days people stay inside in Florida for half the year as much as they do up north. When I was growing up, nothing much was a/c, and it was nice to be outdoors year round. I notice now that hardly anybody is out in the summer these days, except to go to the beach.

Be very careful about insurance. It's not just flood insurance that will get you - homeowner's insurance can be extremely expensive and actually difficult to get.

It's not a good place for people who hate insects, for sure.

[pbkmaine]

I live in The Villages, FL - the largest retirement community in the world. It has 100,000 residents, more or less. The exact number varies, because we have a lot of snowbirds.  I moved here because DH could not tolerate the winters in Maine, a place I love. He moved to Maine to please me, so I moved to Florida to please him. It's worked out well for both of us.

We are not on the coast. We are in the middle of the state, an hour north of Orlando. So, as others have noted, we do not have the ocean moderating temperature, but we also have very little flooding. Our house sits 89 feet above sea level, so climate change would have to be quite drastic to affect us. 

About the hot summers: people shift their outdoor activities around. Early mornings here are quite lovely, in the 70s. DH and I frequently ride our bikes to breakfast. On our way back, temperature will hit 80, and by noon it's 90 or higher, depending on the day. We'll have lunch and take a swim in the pool. There are lots of community pools here, but DH is not a fan, so we have our own pool. Temperature peaks around 4pm, often followed by thunderstorms, which are both lovely and violent. Weather cools down again around dusk.

The Villages sprays for mosquitos, and obviously there are many opinions on the advisability of it. I can tell you that the only insect bite I have received here was from a wasp, and really, I should have looked where I was pruning. Gardening, by the way, is ENTIRELY different from the northeast, and it is taking me a while to get used to. Heat loving plants grow ferociously. The tiny rosemary sprig I carefully nurtured in Maine? It's a tree here. You can grow roses, but you need to select varieties that have been bred for this climate. Some herbs do better than others. The lizards love my thyme and dill, so I have trouble keeping those.

I spent a week in July in Maine, visiting my college roommate, and it was only about 5 degrees cooler than Florida with no air conditioning!

As far as costs go, we have an electrical co-op here, so electricity is very reasonable. We average $150 per month for an 1800sf house, keeping the temperature at 74, the highest DH will go without complaining bitterly.  He was in IT and has a ton of gadgets plugged in, so people could do much better if they tried. We spend very little on gas, even though we have a heated pool. Water is much more, because we have an irrigation system like everyone else here. It averages about $100 per month. Our homeowners insurance is about the same price we paid in NJ and Maine. Car insurance is cheaper than NJ but much higher than Maine. Real estate taxes are $2500 per year, compared with the $12,000 we spent in NJ and the $4000 we spent in Maine.

Overall, we spend much less here. I wear t-shirts from Goodwill ($2.07) and jersey shorts from Walmart ($5) most days. There are maybe two weeks of what could possibly be called winter, and even that means a jeans jacket rather than a coat.

I like it. It's easy to live here. People are friendly. There's plenty to do.

[iris lily]

In poking around places to go for the winter, I looked at many mobile home parks foe the Over 55 crowd. Now that is some cheap living. I would advise a senior,citizen with small income to look into those places. Non-coastal, of course.

Of course, lot remts are not cheap but might range from $485 to $800 for a modest place.

[paddedhat]

In poking around places to go for the winter, I looked at many mobile home parks foe the Over 55 ceows. Now that is some cheap living. I would advise a senior,ditizen with small income to look intomthose places. Non-coastal, of course.

It wouldn't suit my needs, but having spent winters in the area, I found that it's possible to buy a used manufactured home (double wide) in a community, and end up with a really nice place to live, for less than what you would pay for a modest new car. In my travels this held true on the west coast, north of Tampa, including the "nature coast" and Great bend areas, it also would be pretty easy to do, center of the state, south of I-4 down to the big lake. Lots of elderly shift into nursing home situations, or pass on, and leave kids with a deeply depreciated asset, chocked full of belongings that the heirs have zero interest in.  They arrange to have the place cleaned out, then sell the home to the park owner, or dump it for very little, through a realtor.  Another thing to keep in mind is that many campgrounds and RV resorts are full of small "park models" that are essentially downsized single wides. They also can be bought used, for reasonable amounts, and for the 55+ crowd, it can be a pretty sweet winter gig. Warm, laid back, and cheap. Get there from the north in Nov. or dec. enjoy a sweet winter, hit the road by tax day, and it can be a great life.

[BTDretire]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

I love the heat, so that never bothered me.

What you say about the animals is spot on. We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

You forgot to mention the cockroaches. They are HUGE. But you get used to them and at least they do not fly like the ones in Costa Rica.

You call them Palmeto bugs, then they don't bother you!
https://www.google.com/search?q=palmeto+bug&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 I've been in Panama City for 22 years, have never seen an alligator.,
 except in the tourist stores.

[yourusernamehere]

I believe it's a "no-fault" state meaning no matter who caused the accident, fault is split 50/50.

Super-common misunderstanding: "no-fault" doesn't actually refer to the fault (aka negligence.) It just means drivers are required to carry Personal Injury Protection (PIP) coverage that pays for your own medical bills for injuries regardless of whose negligence caused the accident. Many states do not have this requirement, and you can opt to carry Medical Payments coverage or you can choose to be covered by your health insurance.

Florida is a pure comparative negligence state, which means that if you are found to be, say, 25% at fault, you can only collect a max of 75% of the damage. However even if you are 90% at fault you could still collect that other 10%. To me this is better than the handful of states with pure contributory negligence rules, where if you contribute even a tiny bit then you are barred from recovery (AL, DC, MD, NC, VA, I believe.)

That's all pretty over-simplified but just wanted to clear up that point. Not sure it would factor into FIRE decision-making.

[Mrs. PoP]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

I love the heat, so that never bothered me.

What you say about the animals is spot on. We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

You forgot to mention the cockroaches. They are HUGE. But you get used to them and at least they do not fly like the ones in Costa Rica.

You call them Palmeto bugs, then they don't bother you!
https://www.google.com/search?q=palmeto+bug&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 I've been in Panama City for 22 years, have never seen an alligator.,
 except in the tourist stores.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Truly Nolen was founded in Miami Beach, I believe.  =P 

Seriously, though.  Any legit rental will have pest control included in your rental agreement, and you shouldn't have a problem with bugs.  I've heard horror stories of palmetto bugs, but have never seen one inside my dwelling in the decade I've lived here.  But then again, I've always lived somewhere that was treated (at least on the outside) quarterly for bugs. 

[startingsmall]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

I love the heat, so that never bothered me.

What you say about the animals is spot on. We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

You forgot to mention the cockroaches. They are HUGE. But you get used to them and at least they do not fly like the ones in Costa Rica.

You call them Palmeto bugs, then they don't bother you!
https://www.google.com/search?q=palmeto+bug&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 I've been in Panama City for 22 years, have never seen an alligator.,
 except in the tourist stores.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Truly Nolen was founded in Miami Beach, I believe.  =P 

Seriously, though.  Any legit rental will have pest control included in your rental agreement, and you shouldn't have a problem with bugs.  I've heard horror stories of palmetto bugs, but have never seen one inside my dwelling in the decade I've lived here.  But then again, I've always lived somewhere that was treated (at least on the outside) quarterly for bugs.

Growing up, a few of my friends had houses with Palmetto Bugs.... but these were low-income families living in old, poorly-maintained houses. We never had an issue in any of the homes that I lived in, even without regular pest control.

[clarkfan1979]

If you made this move when FIRE'ing, I've got some questions for you :)

My parents recently bought a "winter home" to do the "snow-bird" thing between Michigan and Florida.  I am contemplating Florida as my FIRE location (all year round.)


Weather:
I've only ever been in Florida a couple of times -- in the "winter", and the weather was absolutely beautiful.  Of course, the weather is probably scorching hot in the summer.  How big of an adjustment is it to go from a mid-western style 4-seasons to Florida?  I am looking at historical temperatures throughout the months for high/avg/low temperatures, comparing Chicago with the town in Florida where my parents live.  The summer temperatures seem to only be about ten degrees (F) higher than those in Chicago for the worst summer months.  And then the temps during the winter are absolutely fantastic.  I guess looking at a temperature chart over a year, and living through it, are two things entirely.  I do know that I absolutely hate the terrible winters in Chicago that seem to start early and linger on.  This past summer in Chicago seemed especially hot too, where I never really felt comfortable going outside.  I think in the last calendar year, I have spent about the least amount of time outdoors ever in my life.  (Of course, living in a condo without any outdoor-space of my own, is also a big factor in this...)

Flooding:
I am looking at real estate listings near my parents' place online (Redfin.)  Every property there lists a "Flood Zone Panel" and a "Flood Zone Date".  I tried to figure out what those mean by looking at the FEMA website, but like most government websites, it didn't yield much useful or actionable information.  In some of the suburbs of Chicago, there is some kind of "check" that mortgage companies do to determine whether or not you are in a "flood zone" and require the borrower to carry extra flood insurance (purchased from the federal government, I believe. FEMA?).  How is this done in Florida?  Are ALL properties subject to this in Florida?  If not, how would I check which ones are in riskier areas?  (I don't plan on carrying a mortgage, but I do like to know the exposure to flood risk ahead of buying a home.)

Cost of living:
Living in the city of Chicago, I have become almost numb to the prices of things.  When I visited my parents in a small town in Florida, I was absolutely baffled at how inexpensive many things were.  Did you notice any big-ticket things that shocked you as being more expensive in Florida than in the midwest/Chicago?  Again, I searched some websites on "cost of living comparisons by city" and of course, most everything was more expensive in Chicago.

Demographics:
There were a lot of older folks in the sleepy area of town where my parents bought their place.   I don't think this would bother me much, honestly.  If I'm retired too, then we might have some things in common :)  But seriously, I am perfectly happy to entertain myself going on evening walks or watching Netflix.


Any tips/thoughts anyone could share would be much appreciated.  I am not immediately ready to pull the trigger, but I am getting closer and closer.  Couple-years-time-frame most likely.  I will be visiting my parents again this winter for a few weeks for an extended holiday.  Perhaps doing some more real-estate-window-shopping :)

I don't think it is financially prudent to stay in Chicago for FIRE (nor do I really want to, anyway) due to the escalating cost of everything and the escalating violence.  (My property taxes increased over 60% in this past year, with a promise from the county that there is going to be another big increase next year... and I've been harassed so many times by random people, in any number of ways, that I've lost count.)

I lived in Fort Myers, FL for 4 years (2011-2015)

Weather: Very humid in the summer (May -September). October & April are a little better, but less than good weather. I was call it "good" weather Nov - March.

Flooding: a few feet in elevation will make a difference on your insurance bill. Put all tile in your house. I also had water-resistant cabinets in the kitchen. Buy a house that can survive a flood.

Cost of Living: I think groceries were more expensive in Florida than Colorado and Illinois. I think it's farther for distribution. Health Care is supposed to be cheaper, but I didn't notice. Electricity is cheap, but large electricity bills are common in the summer for A/C.

Property Taxes (I added this one): I have a single family home worth about 215K in Florida and my tax bill just went down to 1,050/year. A similar 215K house in Chicago would easily have taxes in the 5K-7K range.

Demographics: The major cities do not have that many older people because it's expensive. Mid sized towns and small towns will tend to have a large older population. If you are the same age 65-80, it's perfect. If you were me at 35, it wasn't that fun.

[Sean Og]

I live in The Villages, FL - the largest retirement community in the world. It has 100,000 residents, more or less. The exact number varies, because we have a lot of snowbirds.  I moved here because DH could not tolerate the winters in Maine, a place I love. He moved to Maine to please me, so I moved to Florida to please him. It's worked out well for both of us.

My wife's Aunt lives in the villages and we love it, wish I could FIRE tomorrow and move there!

[MoneyCat]

Arizona is the new Florida. It basically gives you almost all the economic advantages of Florida and you don't have to worry about your house being destroyed by hurricanes and floods over and over every year.

[pbkmaine]

Arizona is the new Florida. It basically gives you almost all the economic advantages of Florida and you don't have to worry about your house being destroyed by hurricanes and floods over and over every year.

And instead of too much water, there's no water at all.

[dignam]

Arizona is the new Florida. It basically gives you almost all the economic advantages of Florida and you don't have to worry about your house being destroyed by hurricanes and floods over and over every year.

And instead of too much water, there's no water at all.

This, there is a quote somewhere (forgot who said it), but essentially it was "There is no greater monument to the arrogance of man than the city of Phoenix."

[paddedhat]

I live in The Villages, FL - the largest retirement community in the world. It has 100,000 residents, more or less. The exact number varies, because we have a lot of snowbirds.  I moved here because DH could not tolerate the winters in Maine, a place I love. He moved to Maine to please me, so I moved to Florida to please him. It's worked out well for both of us.

My wife's Aunt lives in the villages and we love it, wish I could FIRE tomorrow and move there!

What's not to love? It's the STD and golf cart DUI conviction capital of Florida. For the bonus round, it's a campaign must stop for every bat shit crazy, theocratic nutjob presidential candidate of the extreme right, lunatic fringe. Hell, just whip up a platform of keeping women barefoot and pregnant, denounce the separation of church and state, promise to fuck the poor as hard as possible, once elected, and the "Village idiots" will show up ten thousand strong.

Sorry, but that doesn't do it for me. No reflection on you, or your family, but the place has a stunning amount of really screwed up people, and lots of issues. BTW, yes I have been there, and I spent last winter a few minutes north of the place. 

[LiveLean]

Moved to Florida in 1997 at age 28. It's terrible. All the bad things are true. Please don't come.

But if you're considering doing so, let's refute some of the above:

1. July-August are hot most everywhere. Florida actually is cooler than a lot of places.
2. Bad drivers? Perhaps. But traffic is minimal compared to DC, LA, Atlanta, etc. I've found driving in South Florida forces me to raise my game.
3. COL is lower even with steep homeowners and auto insurance. No state income taxes more than covers it.
4. Too much wildife? Sigh. I guess if you're against hiking, swimming, paddling, fishing, biking and other outdoor activities, you can hang out at Disney. The next trip I make there will be my first.
5. Flooding? I live in the Tampa Bay area, where a hurricane has not hit in more than a century. In my time living here, hurricanes have touched down all over the East Coast and Louisiana. There. I've just jinxed the Tampa Bay area. We're doomed.
6. The Villages? Mother of God. Just shoot me if I end up living in that place.

[pbkmaine]

Well, paddedhat and LiveLean, I'm reasonably sane, don't drink much and never sleep around. I'm also a social liberal and a feminist. I like it here a lot. It IS true that The Villages is about 2/3 Republican and there are a lot of churchgoers, but those are much more likely to be Catholic than Protestant fundamentalists. Thanks for the stereotypes, though.

[paddedhat]

Well, paddedhat and LiveLean, I'm reasonably sane, don't drink much and never sleep around. I'm also a social liberal and a feminist. I like it here a lot. It IS true that The Villages is about 2/3 Republican and there are a lot of churchgoers, but those are much more likely to be Catholic than Protestant fundamentalists. Thanks for the stereotypes, though.

 I suggest you do a bit of research on everything  I wrote, as you seem to be confusing the concept of facts vs. stereotypes.  If you need a hint, I am specifically referring to that disgusting piece of trash from my home state, Rick Santorum, his  anti-American, hate based policies, and the massive crowd he drew in the Villages.  As for the other issues, they have been more than well documented in local and national media.

BTW, Santorum is a well known radical CATHOLIC extremist.

[CowboyAndIndian]

Check out this article by LandSlave about what the political leanings of different parts of Florida are.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/cheapest-housing-available-almost-anywhere/msg857872/#msg857872

[pbkmaine]

You know, paddedhat, you sound exactly like the Republican firebrands on the anonymous Talk of the Villages political forums. You should join. I think you would enjoy engaging with them.

[paddedhat]

You know, paddedhat, you sound exactly like the Republican firebrands on the anonymous Talk of the Villages political forums. You should join. I think you would enjoy engaging with them.

LOL, apparently acknowledging the dark side of  Villages life will be avoided at all costs.  If you believe I sound like a "republican firebrand" I don't have much hope  for this conversation. When it comes to engaging extremists on either end of the spectrum, I've found it to be a waste of time. When a right winger's mind rots to the point that they can look at clear, irrefutable evidence that they are totally full of shit, and default to dismissing it as "left wing media" (even if the source is the National Review or the WSJ), it becomes a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I imagine that an anonymous Villages forum is about as fertile an environment as one could hope for, in locating such idiots.

[Sean Og]

I live in The Villages, FL - the largest retirement community in the world. It has 100,000 residents, more or less. The exact number varies, because we have a lot of snowbirds.  I moved here because DH could not tolerate the winters in Maine, a place I love. He moved to Maine to please me, so I moved to Florida to please him. It's worked out well for both of us.

My wife's Aunt lives in the villages and we love it, wish I could FIRE tomorrow and move there!

What's not to love? It's the STD and golf cart DUI conviction capital of Florida. For the bonus round, it's a campaign must stop for every bat shit crazy, theocratic nutjob presidential candidate of the extreme right, lunatic fringe. Hell, just whip up a platform of keeping women barefoot and pregnant, denounce the separation of church and state, promise to fuck the poor as hard as possible, once elected, and the "Village idiots" will show up ten thousand strong.

Sorry, but that doesn't do it for me. No reflection on you, or your family, but the place has a stunning amount of really screwed up people, and lots of issues. BTW, yes I have been there, and I spent last winter a few minutes north of the place.

Dude, wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Take a step back and see who you sound like! No need to go dragging hate filled political rants into this! I'm about as liberal as they come, definitely in US terms....and this liberal, immigrant, not so pious foreigner gets on perfectly well with my "right winger" neighbors here in Brownback's Kansas, politics isn't everything buddy! Live and let live......fucking Americans!

[paddedhat]

I live in The Villages, FL - the largest retirement community in the world. It has 100,000 residents, more or less. The exact number varies, because we have a lot of snowbirds.  I moved here because DH could not tolerate the winters in Maine, a place I love. He moved to Maine to please me, so I moved to Florida to please him. It's worked out well for both of us.

My wife's Aunt lives in the villages and we love it, wish I could FIRE tomorrow and move there!

What's not to love? It's the STD and golf cart DUI conviction capital of Florida. For the bonus round, it's a campaign must stop for every bat shit crazy, theocratic nutjob presidential candidate of the extreme right, lunatic fringe. Hell, just whip up a platform of keeping women barefoot and pregnant, denounce the separation of church and state, promise to fuck the poor as hard as possible, once elected, and the "Village idiots" will show up ten thousand strong.

Sorry, but that doesn't do it for me. No reflection on you, or your family, but the place has a stunning amount of really screwed up people, and lots of issues. BTW, yes I have been there, and I spent last winter a few minutes north of the place.

Dude, wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Take a step back and see who you sound like! No need to go dragging hate filled political rants into this! I'm about as liberal as they come, definitely in US terms....and this liberal, immigrant, not so pious foreigner gets on perfectly well with my "right winger" neighbors here in Brownback's Kansas, politics isn't everything buddy! Live and let live......fucking Americans!

This isn't complicated. The question is what are the pros and cons of relocating from the north to FL?  The state included a very unusual, extremely conservative, insular, and enormous retirement community that also has pros and cons. Although it's reasonable to assume that most on this forum are probably not well versed on "The Villages", I can assure you that it would fail to fit the needs on most of us, which is why the cons of the place merit exposure.  I find the very real issues of drunken golf carting and extremely high STD rates caused by elderly, promiscuous and unprotected sex, to be a bit entertaining.  The fact is that they also rabidly embrace extreme right wing fucknuts, much like Brownback, is a hell of a lot more serious.  I'm guessing that most members here would find it important to know that a  significant portion of the population of the community will show up to cheer on oppression of women, the poor, and anybody without the correct religion. JMHO, but I find hate as a family value to be a deal breaker when considering a new location. How about you?  Would you deliberately move to Kansas again, now that it has become  a failed experiment is the delusions of far right voodoo economics, or would it be better to be in an adjoining state that continues to thrive without the oppressive burden of a government that's bent on failure, to prove a point? 

As for the "fucking Americans" comment, nicely done. Stay classy, as you are obviously an asset to this country, and one would assume, created quite a void when you departed your homeland, no?

[LiveLean]

You know, paddedhat, you sound exactly like the Republican firebrands on the anonymous Talk of the Villages political forums. You should join. I think you would enjoy engaging with them.

LOL, apparently acknowledging the dark side of  Villages life will be avoided at all costs.  If you believe I sound like a "republican firebrand" I don't have much hope  for this conversation. When it comes to engaging extremists on either end of the spectrum, I've found it to be a waste of time. When a right winger's mind rots to the point that they can look at clear, irrefutable evidence that they are totally full of shit, and default to dismissing it as "left wing media" (even if the source is the National Review or the WSJ), it becomes a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I imagine that an anonymous Villages forum is about as fertile an environment as one could hope for, in locating such idiots.

My objection to The Villages has nothing to do with any perceived stereotypes about politics, etc.

I cringe at the thought of living in the world's largest gated golf community on steroids full of retirees. My aunt and uncle lived in The Villages for 15 years and visiting them was depressing. The entire culture centered on playing golf and planning to go out for dinner --- every day. What's marketed as "active retirement living" is anything but. My uncle and aunt gradually saw their new retiree friends die off or have to go back north to be near family that could take care of them. Sadly, that's what happened to my uncle and aunt, who moved back to Pittsburgh, where she died and he's not doing well.

My 77-year-old father, widowed for 25 years, has never lived in an over-55 community. He makes a good point: It's not healthy to live around only people your age -- especially when you're a senior.

[pbkmaine]

In any large community, there is a diversity of interests. All I can say is that most exercise classes are filled, and I bike and swim most days. Off to yoga shortly. When I go north, I see older people sitting in Dunkin' Donuts. Here, they are line dancing. As for politics, I see a lot of civil discourse. There's even a club with that name. But I agree it's not for everybody.

[PencilThinStash]

Holy damn, I just showed up to hear some bitching about Chicago property taxes, and look at what this escalated into.

Posting to follow. Be right back with my popcorn!

[dignam]

I believe it's a "no-fault" state meaning no matter who caused the accident, fault is split 50/50.

Super-common misunderstanding: "no-fault" doesn't actually refer to the fault (aka negligence.) It just means drivers are required to carry Personal Injury Protection (PIP) coverage that pays for your own medical bills for injuries regardless of whose negligence caused the accident. Many states do not have this requirement, and you can opt to carry Medical Payments coverage or you can choose to be covered by your health insurance.

Florida is a pure comparative negligence state, which means that if you are found to be, say, 25% at fault, you can only collect a max of 75% of the damage. However even if you are 90% at fault you could still collect that other 10%. To me this is better than the handful of states with pure contributory negligence rules, where if you contribute even a tiny bit then you are barred from recovery (AL, DC, MD, NC, VA, I believe.)

That's all pretty over-simplified but just wanted to clear up that point. Not sure it would factor into FIRE decision-making.

Interesting - thanks for clearing it up!

[Sean Og]

How about you?  Would you deliberately move to Kansas again, now that it has become  a failed experiment is the delusions of far right voodoo economics, or would it be better to be in an adjoining state that continues to thrive without the oppressive burden of a government that's bent on failure, to prove a point? 

This is why I took issue with your comments on The Villages. Have you lived in Kansas? No? Yet here you are making bad assumptions! Yes it may be currently run by a man with questionable ideas and much of the state are at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum to me, however it doesn't make it hell!

Honestly yes, I would move here again even in hindsight. Kansas has been good to us....great people and quality of life, low cost of living and high wages where I am. I really couldn't ask for a better place to build a stache! I certainly prefer my $150k house to a comparable $350k+ house back east. It is actually a very good place to live and raise a family.

Being from PA, you surely remember the recent Gov. Corbett.....and yet it was still a nice place to live! Similarly if Trump were to become president, the US wouldn't become the worst place in the world overnight!!

As for your last comment....I guess somebody thought I was an asset to seek me out, convince me to hire on, get me a visa and move me half way round the world!

[paddedhat]

How about you?  Would you deliberately move to Kansas again, now that it has become  a failed experiment is the delusions of far right voodoo economics, or would it be better to be in an adjoining state that continues to thrive without the oppressive burden of a government that's bent on failure, to prove a point? 

This is why I took issue with your comments on The Villages. Have you lived in Kansas? No? Yet here you are making bad assumptions! Yes it may be currently run by a man with questionable ideas and much of the state are at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum to me, however it doesn't make it hell!

Honestly yes, I would move here again even in hindsight. Kansas has been good to us....great people and quality of life, low cost of living and high wages where I am. I really couldn't ask for a better place to build a stache! I certainly prefer my $150k house to a comparable $350k+ house back east. It is actually a very good place to live and raise a family.

Being from PA, you surely remember the recent Gov. Corbett.....and yet it was still a nice place to live! Similarly if Trump were to become president, the US wouldn't become the worst place in the world overnight!!

As for your last comment....I guess somebody thought I was an asset to seek me out, convince me to hire on, get me a visa and move me half way round the world!

Assume much? First, I have spent the last few winter seasons living literally up the road from the Villages. I have friends there, I have visited, and I have no interest in being among a population where the majority are "conservative", but can't hold an intelligent conversation, once they have exhausted their Fox News bullet points. One truly sickening aspect of being around high concentrations of the retired baby boom generation is that many of them have incredible entitlement delusions. Sadly, many that were lucky enough to be the last with high paying blue collar jobs, with generous pensions and "Cadillac" health care plans, are pretty difficult to socialize with. Thinly veiled racism, nationalism, homophobia, and constant bitching about how they want the 1950's back, gets really old, quickly.  It's interesting to observe those who were lucky by birth, wouldn't last a week in the modern economy, yet believe so highly of themselves.   If you really want to immerse yourself in this culture, spend time in any upscale, gated, over 55 community, preferably on the golf course.

  As for the short Reign of Mr. Corbett, the difference between that situation and Kansas, is that Corbett lied about the need to be the only state to let the gas industry have an extraction tax free ride. He tried to enforce a criminal "hands off" environmental policy, that let the fracking industry rape and pillage until the Feds. stepped in. He also chopped education funding by a billion dollars, in violation of the state constitution, and ignoring the fact that we have an extraordinarily inequitable funding base for our schools, that being real estate taxes that can vary hugely from one district to the next. When it became obvious that he was dishonest, had zero interest in governing it the best interests of the state, and was screwing the taxpayer, he suffer the fate he deserved. He lost as an incumbent, which is nearly unprecedented in our history.  Unfortunately, a lot of the deep blue states seem to engage in faith based thinking, when it comes to being screwed by the extreme right.  Brownback drives the state into a ditch, and they reelect him. OTOH, Kansas voters looks like hotbed of Mensa members when compared to Maine's, LOL.  The economist who sold the whole"trickle down economics" scam to Reagan, disavowed it as a mistake, decades ago. It will never work, but the delusional far right will sacrifice your state to prove that they are right.  All things considered, it has exactly nothing to do with PA.

[oldtoyota]

I've also read that Florida is basically a zoo without the fences and walls.  Wildlife, etc.  I imagine you simply cannot leave your windows in your house/car open because of this.  I'm pretty sure that alligators and snakes are quite common--sorry, this just isn't my cup of tea.  Mosquitoes---really big mosquitoes.

I love the heat, so that never bothered me.

What you say about the animals is spot on. We often walked among alligators while hiking and saw them while canoeing. They never expressed any interest in killing me, and I assumed any water in FL would have alligators in it (even a swimming pool so I checked before I got in).

You forgot to mention the cockroaches. They are HUGE. But you get used to them and at least they do not fly like the ones in Costa Rica.

You call them Palmeto bugs, then they don't bother you!
https://www.google.com/search?q=palmeto+bug&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 I've been in Panama City for 22 years, have never seen an alligator.,
 except in the tourist stores.

Haha. You're right. They don't really bother me, but I only saw one...

[erockrazor]

Happy to hear that I'm not the only one considering it. I am currently moving from Chicago to the Tampa Bay area. I lived in Chicago for a few years and really loved the warmer months there, the people, and the public spaces. The winter months were really beginning to wear on me so I'm giving Florida a try in an effort to be more active all year round. I tend to handle the heat better than the cold and am anxious to put this to the test.

Cost of Living - While the cost of rent might be highly individual, I have an opportunity in FL that will allow me to rent for $150 per month. This is in comparison to the $350 and $366 that I was paying during my time in Chicago. Bear in mind that these living situations all involve roommates in varying numbers. I don't expect that I will be able to beat the $80-100 monthly grocery bill (shopping at Aldi) that I had in Chicago though. There is also a cell phone tax in Chicago that was bringing my republic wireless bill from ~$11 to ~$17. I'm curious to see how moving to Florida will affect my cell phone bill.

I had cockroaches in my last apartment in Chicago, and will probably have to deal with them at some point in Florida. I'll be curious to see how you weigh the input from the forum users.

[CowboyAndIndian]

I don't expect that I will be able to beat the $80-100 monthly grocery bill (shopping at Aldi) that I had in Chicago though.

There are Aldi's in Florida. I know there is one in St. Pete.

[Fomerly known as something]

On weather.  You will either love it or hate it.  I lived in SW Georgia for a few years.  I absolutely hated the summer.  I would rather deal with the Michigan Winters I have returned too.  On the other hand my Sister lives in the FL Panhandle.  You couldn't drag her back up north mainly due to the weather.  I guess I'm happier dealing with "extreme" cold rather than "extreme" hot.

As far as the old people.  Don't move to what my sister refers to as "god's waiting room."  The Sarasota area.  FL is not all where your parents live.  More expensive but very diverse is Miami, rural and "old Florida" is central FL and on the Panhandle you have a ton of military folks and military contractors.     

ETA:  Because I know the Panhandle better than other areas due to family,  They are less Florida like geographically and so less likely to flood from coastal issues.

[Fishindude]

We are in Indiana.  Seems like retirement and wintering in Florida is the "in" thing to do.
I've been there once and don't care to go back.   Too much traffic, and I'm not a sun worshiper.

[MishMash]

I'm loving the FL feedback!   It's where DH and I plan to FIRE too as well (in 5ish years).  We may end up down there for his job in 2 years and would stay.  His job would be in Tampa but we are ultimately looking to head to the Keys.  My main concern is the property and flood insurance costs so glad to hear more feedback!

[jim555]

Florida in the summer is unbearable, for me at least.  Plus if you are from the north you will see a difference in the people that live there, they are not like northerners. 
Don't forget no Medicaid expansion so hope you never get down and out, then you are SOL.  Traffic is getting worse with no solution in sight.  The bugs are twice the size and twice as many.  The south still remembers the Civil War and they have attitudes based on it in many places.

[MishMash]

Florida in the summer is unbearable, for me at least.  Plus if you are from the north you will see a difference in the people that live there, they are not like northerners. 
Don't forget no Medicaid expansion so hope you never get down and out, then you are SOL.  Traffic is getting worse with no solution in sight.  The bugs are twice the size and twice as many.  The south still remembers the Civil War and they have attitudes based on it in many places.

Yea we've been in the summer, it's the number 1 reason the Keys are probably where we will finally end up, we've spent months down there and at least there is usually a breeze.  We also love the water.   I adore heat, 100 degree days are A OK by me, I literally wear a sweatshirt in anything below 75.  We lived in GA for years so we are used to the palmetto bugs and the blatent racism, they are still both gross though.  DH will have health care for both of us, we'll be FIRE'd so no worries about finding a job, and in regards to traffic...well...we currently live in DC, NOTHING on the planet can be worse then this place (seriously, we beat out LA this year).  We also plan on spending a few months of the year camping the northern locations each year so that's a good break.

In return we get top notch diving, boating, fishing etc.  All the water sports we love.  Now, if we can find a way to capitalize on the tourists without too much "work" we'll be all set.

[Kansas Beachbum]

I have to echo Mishmash's, and others, comments.  We live in Kansas City, but are moving to Florida after the first of the year (Southern Gulf Coast).  One comment I hear is when people learn we're moving is "oh my God it's hot there in the summer!".  My response is always "oh my God it's hot HERE in the summer!"...which is true, it's every bit as hot here Jun - Sep as it is in Florida.  I actually have the city we're moving to on my weather app.  In the summer it's always within 1 - 2 degrees of what it is here, usually Kansas City is warmer.  Humidity in Florida is pretty oppressive if you're away from the coasts, but quite a bit better at the coast.  It does help that we really prefer warm/hot weather.  If you don't like hot weather you wouldn't like it.  We find prices to be pretty comparable to Kansas City area, and the lack of state income tax will be a 6%-7% raise for us.  We just really enjoy the whole beach town vibe, atmosphere.  Would not personally enjoy a retirement, or even a 55+ subdivision, just not for us, like to be around a variety of people, etc.  It's also true what someone else said about the coasts...they have distinctly different personalities.  The east coast is largely people from the northeast, New York, DC, etc., while the gulf coast is largely people from the Midwest and south, or native Floridians.  We prefer the gulf coast, but that's probably because we're Midwesterners.  Oh, and to Mishmash's point, the Keys are lovely pretty much any time of year.  Cheers! 

[LifeHappens]

I've lived on the Gulf Coast for almost 4 years now. Moved from W Michigan. I love it here, but it isn't for everyone. A few points that have not been addressed.

1) Florida is a big state and extremely diverse. Comparing Miami to Tallahassee, for instance, is like comparing Chicago to Springfield. There are a ton of differences between the different regions of the state. If you give us an idea of what you're looking for in a town, people here can probably point you to the right area.

2) You either learn to love the heat or you don't. I love it, but know many snowbirds who would never be able to adapt. As others have said, in the summer you shift your schedule. Outdoorsy things happen before noon to avoid the worst of the heat and the lightening storms. If you can, try to spend a couple weeks in the summer to see how you do.

3) If you choose to be near the coast, look into living in a stilt house. My house is 14ft above sea level and my flood insurance is under $400 per year. People in older style homes at low elevation in my neighborhood are paying $5000 and up per year. Elevation makes a huge difference in your costs.

4) For a lifelong Midwesterner, the culture here is... different. I like to say people around my area do no suffer from the Protestant work ethic. It works well for someone with a FIRE perspective, but hiring contractors and the like can be a challenge. Also, Florida really is home to a lot of semi-insane people who have run away (I may be one of those people). Read a Tim Dorsey book for several not-too-exaggerated examples.

5) Do you get seasonal depression? Instant cure.

6) I've found most costs to be equal to or lower than they were in my former MCOL area. You can live super cheap if you want/need to, but "normal" middle class life will be much cheaper than Chicago in most of Florida. Miami/Ft Lauderdale and the Keys are exceptions to this. Groceries do cost ~10% more.