Author Topic: Annual Christmas Rant.  (Read 18548 times)

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2018, 07:55:24 PM »
So apparently I suck at disengaging...

:)   I'm kinda glad. It's a good conversation! I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, especially given they're a different idea.

Sorry, but "I decline to discuss this for a 12th time" is shutting somebody down.

I see what you mean. When I use the phrase shut someone down, I'm referring to a default of stonewalling. Nonresponsiveness, not allowing the initial communication, getting into "talk to the hand", silent treatment, etc.

So, if we use the term for all stages of communication -even after clear, direct communication and a reasonable request- you're right, I do support shutting someone down. (I have this conversation with my teen, too: Do I have to listen and engage the 12th time, after I've fully responded to literally that message already? No, I do not.)

Do most families not try to help each other? Is the first reaction not distress that one's mother is stuck in some sort of bizarre loop and unable to express herself, rather than annoyance that it's happening? Not asking why it's happening and if there's a way to help? It'd break my heart if my mother ended up in this position. I understand that ideally the situation resolves without effort on the annoyed's part, but I think we're asking a bit much of somebody who is on iteration 12 of the loop to suddenly gain the awareness that maybe they need to do something different.

We know Panda a little bit from around the forum, and my impression is that Panda has compassion for her* mom, does work to have room for her, etc. In this thread, my heart is going out to Panda, as she's been clear that this has been going on a long time and is stressful for her. That's all.

Ideally, Mom too receives understanding and help to sort Mom's stuff out.

I don't think anyone expects Mom to suddenly gain awareness at x iteration. That's why it's suggested that Panda use clear, direct words before moving on.

Support for Panda doesn't mean Mom should be exiled or anything, and Panda setting boundaries for her health doesn't mean she can't also explore with Mom, or that Mom can't seek help for her issues with Panda, a friend, etc.


*I don't know Panda's gender.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2018, 08:14:18 PM »

*I don't know Panda's gender.

You're not a great post stalker. I frequent the pregnancy chat... I'm female :)

Thank you for the kind post.
A relationship with my mother is trying. But I'm trying.

marble_faun

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2018, 08:16:28 PM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2018, 08:22:12 PM »
You're not a great post stalker. I frequent the pregnancy chat... I'm female :)

LOL!! And it's true, I'm not. I very often forget people's gender on here, even when I really really really know it!

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2018, 08:24:37 PM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

Yeah - those things creep me out! Send it back? Sell it / return it? Pretend you use it, but divert by asking them questions on how to get it to do a specific task? Good luck. I wonder what Alexa would do?

omachi

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2018, 08:44:13 PM »
So apparently I suck at disengaging...

:)   I'm kinda glad. It's a good conversation! I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, especially given they're a different idea.
In this case, I am too, as it appears we've been talking past each other. Given this response, I'm not sure we're that far off really.

Sorry, but "I decline to discuss this for a 12th time" is shutting somebody down.

I see what you mean. When I use the phrase shut someone down, I'm referring to a default of stonewalling. Nonresponsiveness, not allowing the initial communication, getting into "talk to the hand", silent treatment, etc.

So, if we use the term for all stages of communication -even after clear, direct communication and a reasonable request- you're right, I do support shutting someone down. (I have this conversation with my teen, too: Do I have to listen and engage the 12th time, after I've fully responded to literally that message already? No, I do not.)
I guess I view stonewalling as separate, not even bothering to engage in the first place. That's a problem in its own right. To me, shutting somebody down is stopping them from getting too far into some (unproductive) behavior. So somebody starts up some bad behavior and you shut them down before it becomes more of an issue. Unsaid is that yes, it's after the initial interaction that was responded to reasonably.

Where my personal, I don't know, sorrow maybe, is in this tale is that I tend to try to do some sort of transition towards a solution after shutting down poor behavior. So for me it'd be "For the 12th time, no, we're not getting into this. But can we talk about what it is that makes the list unacceptable? Do you not think I'd savor anything on the list I've already given you enough to make it a good enough gift from you?" Just saying no and walking away feels wrong. I want that olive branch out there. They can say no, and then we're done, that's fine. I'd just hope they took the invitation to talk on productive grounds early on, because, despite my patience, in all honestly it probably would not be offered anymore on iteration number 12.

Support for Panda doesn't mean Mom should be exiled or anything, and Panda setting boundaries for her health doesn't mean she can't also explore with Mom, or that Mom can't seek help for her issues with Panda, a friend, etc.
That your position isn't that Panda can't go explore with mom is probably where my part of the misunderstanding came from. I was more focused on the strongly stated boundary side being brought up, while practically nobody has simultaneously suggested trying to get at the root of mom's problem. Not that it's her obligation to do so, but that there's possible relief for all involved to be found in trying.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2018, 09:13:43 PM »
Yes, I see boundary-setting as just one step. A person may well choose to do subsequent ones as well (affirming love, extending an invitation to a different scenario, moving to humour, etc). A lot of us need to implement the boundary in order to experience enough safety, space, and time to be able to move on to those (whether one minute or one decade later), though.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2018, 09:20:36 PM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...
I think that topic deserves a thread of its own. Here is my story: The first Christmas after DW and I were married, my Mom gifted us a Willow Tree nativity. A rather expensive for a couple of college students paying their own way though school. We already had a nativity, don't care for the Willow Tree style, and had nowhere to put it. I made the mistake of asking my dad for advice. Rather than recognizing the sensitivity of the situation, he in turn discussed it with my mom, who was rather offended to hear we didn't want her very thoughtful gift. ( it *was* thoughtful, and we really appreciated her generosity, but...)

omachi

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2018, 09:58:37 PM »
Yes, I see boundary-setting as just one step. A person may well choose to do subsequent ones as well (affirming love, extending an invitation to a different scenario, moving to humour, etc). A lot of us need to implement the boundary in order to experience enough safety, space, and time to be able to move on to those (whether one minute or one decade later), though.
I guess I look at boundary setting as the larger process of laying out the boundary, enforcing it, and maintaining it, until the boundary is being respected, at which point it has been set. Like letting concrete set. So when I see talk of having to enforce the boundary by shutting down unwanted behavior, to me that indicates that the boundary isn't set yet. And if everything else, including reaching out to help, is subsequent to the boundary being set, that's potentially a lot of unwanted behavior before I could help. I, personally, want to interleave that help during that whole process. If we can fix the issue before the 12th no, all the better. If we can't, the help has likely dried up and I'm glad the boundary setting process is well under way.

In this specific case, my hunch is there's some redirection that can be done that will make the behavior that requires setting a firm boundary just disappear. I've tried to be very overt that if the desire, energy, or patience isn't there, it's not an obligation and just setting the boundary is a good approach. But if those are there, and there's desire to do so, it may be way easier than locking horns with a strong-willed opponent who is willing to test that boundary at every turn, finally winning that battle, then addressing the underlying issue.

So if your boundary setting is my laying out boundaries, and the whole rest of the process is something other than boundary setting, perhaps we're just using the same words in different ways. If not, I'm more than willing to accept that many don't have the surplus of energy and patience to mix the processes, and it's just an aspect where I'm different.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2018, 10:37:26 PM »
...locking horns with a strong-willed opponent who is willing to test that boundary at every turn, finally winning that battle, then addressing the underlying issue.

I do think you and I are largely on the same page, and that most differences are likely just a matter of language and understandings of what's happening when.

The other piece is that I don't experience boundary-setting (any point in that process) as locking horns or winning a battle. When we first start setting boundaries, we can feel like we're being aggressive (even though we're not), only because we've generally been passive (or P-A). We feel like we're shouting, or being mean, or stancing for battle, even while our volume, body language, and words are entirely appropriate and peaceful. It's so foreign to us to speak up, most of us have some version of an anxiety attack the first few times. And then we go through what Beattie calls after-burn: the guilt, fear, angst that comes with having set one. So, lots of emotions and sensations while, objectively, we are being perfectly appropriate.

But once we acclimatize to boundary-setting, and those internal reactions to our new functioning are no longer happening, we feel peace and wellness. There are still no horns, no locking, no battle. i.e., Boundaries rather than walls. We're centered, we speak from our calm truth, out of respect for ourselves. We're simply presenting who we are, and loving ourselves enough to feel strength of personal, quiet conviction. It's not from an angry place, it's not an attack, it's not a move of offense. It's a sharing who we are and what we will and can live with and accept in this relationship.

Yes, for me boundary-setting or laying out boundaries is a process, based in love, and incorporating strength, patience, zen, clarity, openness, and curiousity. "Shutting down" aggression can still allow for all those other things to remain present. In my experience, aggression often needs to be shut down in order for there to be enough room for everything else.

Panda has spoken multiple times with Mom. Responded to the requests as is. Done her very best to communicate. Listened to her mom's rants. Offered her mom other options. Understood that her mom wants Panda to have a different value system. Maintained the relationship regardless of struggle and pain. Has done all this over the course of years. Might there be room to understand even more? Absolutely. There always is, in anything, for any of us. But Panda has expressed the fatigue and stress she's now experiencing this far in. When a person has done all this over the course of years and is now very tired and stressed, I think she's done enough for now and is eligible (so to speak) to set a boundary around the specific aggressive activity. She can do this directly, politely, clearly, and firmly, and still be chock full of love, curiousity, and openness (not to that one behaviour but) to her mom.

Like you say, a person isn't obligated to do more (redirect, serve as therapist, do some hours of reflective listening, seek even more to understand, etc). I think Panda has tried hard for a long time, and is pretty tired from the behaviour now. That seems like a good time to move forward to "shutting down" the specific behaviour, getting a good rest, and then deciding what she wants to do from there. But for sure, a person might also continue to try other things instead, too. Totally legit, if one is up for more as you note.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2018, 02:35:09 AM »
You said you only talk to her 2-3 times a month , maybe this is her way of trying to communicate (though poorly) with you more.

I'd just say send me a Amazon Gift Card if you'd like I really dont need anything right now and when I do purchase something I need I will let you know what that was and be done with it.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2018, 06:46:04 AM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

This is a tough one... Because it's not like you can just plug it in when they are around, if you don't want it having access at all!

GreenSheep

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2018, 07:44:30 AM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

I don't think there's anything wrong with simply not using it and/or getting rid of it. You didn't ask for it, and you shouldn't feel obligated to allow something in your home that you don't want there. If the people who gave it to you have any sense of respect/decency, they will realize it was an unwanted gift and not press the issue. If I were the giver, I'd be embarrassed about misjudging the recipient, not angry that they didn't like my gift.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2018, 08:18:32 AM »
On the subject of gifts you really, really don't like or want...

Once given, it's yours to do with as you wish. Your only obligation is to be courteous about the receiving of the gift - thank the giver for it, even if it isn't something you want. If it is someone that absolutely would want to know if you don't want it and would likely return it, then gently let them know that and ask if they'd like to take it back (to either return or keep themselves). But there is nothing wrong with just thanking them and then moving on to other gifts/talk at that point.

After that, you get to decide what to do with the item. Which means use it, or sell it, give it away if you absolutely don't want it and don't want to give it back to the giver.

I don't understand why there is any confusion about this. A gift given where the giver is demanding you keep it even if you don't want/like the item isn't giving you an actual gift - it's got major strings attached that loop back into the whole controlling/boundary issue that crops up in some types of dysfunctional families. You don't have to be mean/rude about refusing to accept that situation; but you should not be beholding to store or use an item you dislike just to not hurt someone's feelings when they don't take your own feelings into consideration themselves.

If they ask about said item, then you politely tell them that you tried it, but it ended up being something that didn't work well for you and you could offer to give it back to them (if it's within a short time period) or tell a white lie (it's around here somewhere but haven't gotten to put it out/use it yet), or be honest about how it didn't work and you passed it along to someone else that would enjoy it.


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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2018, 09:08:46 AM »
Given your update about the Rolex, Coach purse, etc., it sounds like what your mom wants to give you is some sort of luxury good. Maybe she thinks that all people, or at least all women, love luxury things as much as she does, and that there's something you secretly want but don't feel comfortable asking for because it's so expensive or frivolous.

Or maybe she knows you don't like luxury goods, but wants you to like them, either to validate her own choices, or to have something to bond over, or because she places a lot of value in them as status symbols and wants others to view you as a high status person.

You could probably solve your immediate problem by telling her what you really want is a [insert designer here] purse/shoes/luggage/whatever, but then you'd be stuck doing the same thing every year.

I'd probably go with a polite, firm, honest approach. Something like, "Mom, when you reject all the options I gave you, it makes me feel like you must think there's something I secretly want but haven't told you about, but that's not the case. The things I've suggested already are the only things I want right now. If you don't want to get any of those things, I'd also be happy with a surprise of your choosing, or money for the kid's college account, or even nothing. But all this bacl-and-forth about my wishlist is causing me a lot of stress, so I'd really appreciate it if we can drop the subject."

omachi

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2018, 09:54:23 AM »
I had one idea that might work, though it violates my don't give any more ideas stance. What if you asked for your present to be them taking you out to dinner at a fancy place next time you're in town? Their choice of venue, so as fancy as they want. This would play into mom's apparent desire to give high status things and could get you no new stuff, likely a very nice meal, and probably a good evening of conversation with them.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2018, 09:58:56 AM »
I had one idea that might work, though it violates my don't give any more ideas stance. What if you asked for your present to be them taking you out to dinner at a fancy place next time you're in town? Their choice of venue, so as fancy as they want. This would play into mom's apparent desire to give high status things and could get you no new stuff, likely a very nice meal, and probably a good evening of conversation with them.

Doesn't count as a Christmas gift.  Gifts have to be things that can be wrapped and mailed.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2018, 10:19:30 AM »
What about fancy cooking products like expensive balsamic and olive oil, or exotic spices? I always enjoy that kind of stuff (although would never purchase it myself) from my MIL who has a similar gift hangup.

Those are gifts my husband would get. I don't cook.  Generally requests for things for him or my daughter are nixed.
(Though I think "fancy dive light" may have worked- and that's for him.)

omachi

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2018, 10:24:37 AM »
I had one idea that might work, though it violates my don't give any more ideas stance. What if you asked for your present to be them taking you out to dinner at a fancy place next time you're in town? Their choice of venue, so as fancy as they want. This would play into mom's apparent desire to give high status things and could get you no new stuff, likely a very nice meal, and probably a good evening of conversation with them.

Doesn't count as a Christmas gift.  Gifts have to be things that can be wrapped and mailed.

A gift card for the fancy place of their choice, to which they'll take you the next time you're in town? I'm digging.

Start collecting graded gold bullion coins? Might mess with your asset allocation, though.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2018, 10:25:03 AM »
It seems she wants to give you something very special and you are giving her very mundane choices. Maybe she wants to buy you an expensive leather purse or boots, a cashmere sweater. I have no idea what your Mother's budget is. If she can afford something a little 'expensive' let her do it. You may feel she shouldn't have to spend her hard earned money on 'gifts' but she wants to do something very special for you and it isn't just for you, it makes her feel good too.
I also have a mother that loves to give gifts at Christmas. This is dead on, particularly the bold. It isn't entirely about you. And what your mom likely really wants isn't to just give you some thing, but to give you a gift that will make your eyes light up and excite you. The frustration likely comes because you're using the same words, gifts, but not talking about the same thing.

Boundaries are good, and you should set them, but consider giving your mom the gift of letting her get you something special. It's work, I know (boy do I know). But try to find something you wouldn't mind having gifted early in the year. Most of your listed stuff is reasonable. The agate coasters sound cool. They'd probably pass my mom's list filter. But to have a better chance, try dropping hints around April about how you'd like them, but you just can't bring yourself to buy them because it's hard to justify spending that on just a set of coasters. Then in August or so, mention them again. You saw a set recently and were so tempted, that deep blue color is so pretty, but you still couldn't bring yourself to buy them. Boy how you want them, though. Then they show up on Christmas, you gush over them, and everybody is happy.

Bonus tip, find consumables that you want because they disappear and then you aren't dealing with space issues. A nice bottle of wine if you drink it, for example. Fancy chocolate if you like it. Spices you cook with, because, have you seen the price of vanilla lately? Anything that you can create an illusion of scarcity around and react with happiness about receiving. And then you can go on about how happy you were to receive that throughout the year, and turn it into a recurring thing. Less thinking about it in the long run.

Yeah, it's more work than just handing over a list a month ahead of time. It should be less work than the constant treadmill of setting boundaries around that arrangement. Heck, you may be able to get away with the list of whatever as long as you have one thing on there you play up throughout the year.

Yes, Omachi has also brought up the 'thing' that your Mother is looking for: And what your mom likely really wants isn't to just give you some thing, but to give you a gift that will make your eyes light up and excite you.

She probably reflects back when you were a child and she could buy you a doll, doll clothes a doll house, some stuffed animals and you were squealing with delight. In some odd way she wants to relive it and feel that emotion in her heart again. I would try to give her that gift of memory lane. That would be YOUR gift to her by letting her spoil you.

I don't doubt this is true. But there isn't something I can ask for that would do this.   Stuff does not make my eyes light up in joy the way it did when I was 9.
And the things that would do that (like a nice soap making kit!!!) apparently aren't suitable.

Maybe I should just pretend I've suddenly taken up drinking and ask for a Quintessa.

Could you go shopping together to buy kids stuff for an org like Toys for Tots / Church angel wishes or whatever? I really think this is whats going on with your mom, that she wants to buy you something special to make you feel like a kid again (and she can witness it), but maybe you both doing this together, wrapping them, talking about how excited the kids will be will help?

Very glad to not have this problem around the holidays, i'm sorry its so stressful for you.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2018, 11:18:13 AM »
It seems she wants to give you something very special and you are giving her very mundane choices. Maybe she wants to buy you an expensive leather purse or boots, a cashmere sweater. I have no idea what your Mother's budget is. If she can afford something a little 'expensive' let her do it. You may feel she shouldn't have to spend her hard earned money on 'gifts' but she wants to do something very special for you and it isn't just for you, it makes her feel good too.
I also have a mother that loves to give gifts at Christmas. This is dead on, particularly the bold. It isn't entirely about you. And what your mom likely really wants isn't to just give you some thing, but to give you a gift that will make your eyes light up and excite you. The frustration likely comes because you're using the same words, gifts, but not talking about the same thing.

Boundaries are good, and you should set them, but consider giving your mom the gift of letting her get you something special. It's work, I know (boy do I know). But try to find something you wouldn't mind having gifted early in the year. Most of your listed stuff is reasonable. The agate coasters sound cool. They'd probably pass my mom's list filter. But to have a better chance, try dropping hints around April about how you'd like them, but you just can't bring yourself to buy them because it's hard to justify spending that on just a set of coasters. Then in August or so, mention them again. You saw a set recently and were so tempted, that deep blue color is so pretty, but you still couldn't bring yourself to buy them. Boy how you want them, though. Then they show up on Christmas, you gush over them, and everybody is happy.

Bonus tip, find consumables that you want because they disappear and then you aren't dealing with space issues. A nice bottle of wine if you drink it, for example. Fancy chocolate if you like it. Spices you cook with, because, have you seen the price of vanilla lately? Anything that you can create an illusion of scarcity around and react with happiness about receiving. And then you can go on about how happy you were to receive that throughout the year, and turn it into a recurring thing. Less thinking about it in the long run.

Yeah, it's more work than just handing over a list a month ahead of time. It should be less work than the constant treadmill of setting boundaries around that arrangement. Heck, you may be able to get away with the list of whatever as long as you have one thing on there you play up throughout the year.

Yes, Omachi has also brought up the 'thing' that your Mother is looking for: And what your mom likely really wants isn't to just give you some thing, but to give you a gift that will make your eyes light up and excite you.

She probably reflects back when you were a child and she could buy you a doll, doll clothes a doll house, some stuffed animals and you were squealing with delight. In some odd way she wants to relive it and feel that emotion in her heart again. I would try to give her that gift of memory lane. That would be YOUR gift to her by letting her spoil you.

I don't doubt this is true. But there isn't something I can ask for that would do this.   Stuff does not make my eyes light up in joy the way it did when I was 9.
And the things that would do that (like a nice soap making kit!!!) apparently aren't suitable.

Maybe I should just pretend I've suddenly taken up drinking and ask for a Quintessa.

Could you go shopping together to buy kids stuff for an org like Toys for Tots / Church angel wishes or whatever? I really think this is whats going on with your mom, that she wants to buy you something special to make you feel like a kid again (and she can witness it), but maybe you both doing this together, wrapping them, talking about how excited the kids will be will help?

Very glad to not have this problem around the holidays, i'm sorry its so stressful for you.

No, we don't live near each other.   
Plus this would be a "that sounds great, but it isn't a gift" activity.

I'm over it now. But I appreciate everyone's suggestions. It will come up again next year.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2018, 11:19:20 AM »
I had one idea that might work, though it violates my don't give any more ideas stance. What if you asked for your present to be them taking you out to dinner at a fancy place next time you're in town? Their choice of venue, so as fancy as they want. This would play into mom's apparent desire to give high status things and could get you no new stuff, likely a very nice meal, and probably a good evening of conversation with them.

Doesn't count as a Christmas gift.  Gifts have to be things that can be wrapped and mailed.

A gift card for the fancy place of their choice, to which they'll take you the next time you're in town? I'm digging.

Start collecting graded gold bullion coins? Might mess with your asset allocation, though.

Not a bad idea. LOL. My Dad likes to collect coins. He'd hop on that.

mm1970

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2018, 12:58:32 PM »
Ah, memories.  My mother used to buy me a set of sweatpants every year.  That's what she got my sister and brother too.  They all lived in the Northeast.  Me, in coastal So Cal.  So while one set was nice, I didn't need a new one every year.

But then I lost a bunch of weight, and she continued to buy me XL.

A couple of years later, I was pregnant, and I got a set that was extra-long pants (with no elastic around the ankle) - I'm 5'2" with short legs AND an XS top, but I was 6 months pregnant.  Never took the tags off.  I miss my mom.

This year we basically disappointed EVERYONE.  We've been too busy to work on our wish lists or the kids.  The grandparents and aunts are begging for ideas.  We don't even know what to get our OWN kids (except I'm totally going for new pants and sheets for kid #1 and something similar for kid #2).  (In our defense, they didn't send US wish lists either.)  Honestly, kid #1 is 12, he probably just wants $.  Plus, our house is small, and we don't need new toys.  I feel like I'm expected to take on more and more of the "unpaid brain work" in the house, and I'm just not having it.

MIL got no birthday gift this year, because hubs was too busy.
What is his sister or mom getting for Xmas?  Heck if I know.  He's hasn't purchased anything yet.  The only things that have been purchased for anyone is his family have been a few things that I picked out/ ordered/ bought.


zolotiyeruki

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2018, 01:30:06 PM »
Start collecting graded gold bullion coins? Might mess with your asset allocation, though.
Ha, I love it!

Johnez

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2018, 05:20:50 PM »
I get that people like giving gifts and whatever, but I honestly hate the gift thing. Maybe it's the expectations or the contrived nature of it, I don't  know. I love buying (or making) random things for people for the hell of it tho. Once when I was a furniture maker I had a wild idea for a sofa and asked a buddy of mine if he'd like a sofa. He did and it was fun for both of us. The mad nature of going down a list of people and figuring out what each of them wants or needs that they don't ready have that isn't too expensive or isn't too cheap and this and that.....aaaaaahhhh.....first world problems lol.

Zette

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2018, 08:40:43 PM »
Ask her to give you jewelry, "even though I don't wear it much, I can pass it down to [daughter]".  That might make it feel significant.

herbgeek

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2018, 06:23:40 AM »
Quote
've sent 8 different emails with gift suggestions. All have been rejected.  I've sent "I don't really need a gift". That's not OK.
Want to tell me how to please her rather than just pointing out that it would be worse if she was dead?

How would the dynamic of this relationship change if you no longer felt obligated to please her?    Not to say you had to be mean or anything like that, but if you were just not so attached to the need of making your mother happy.  We cannot control other's emotions.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2018, 07:01:42 AM »
What about this idea. Tell your mother you don't want a gift but what you would like is the gift of time with her. Such as a dinner and a play, dinner and movie. Take a short flight somewhere like Vegas if you live nearby and take in some dinner shows. Go on a bus tour of wine country. Take a one day course at a culinary school on baking or learning to make appetizers, or cooking soups or casseroles, artisan bread making . They have tons of classes you can take on a Saturday. Take a jewelry making class together or stained glass or ceramics. Go to a day spa.

If your grandmothers are still alive, you could include them in an all girls day out and if you have a daughter it could be a generational thing. Take photos.

You could save all the tickets and scraps of paper from the trip or whatever you choose to do and make a collage of the 'memory', frame it and give it to your mother.

Find something you can do together to make a memory.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2018, 07:13:53 AM »
What about this idea. Tell your mother you don't want a gift but what you would like is the gift of time with her. Such as a dinner and a play, dinner and movie. Take a short flight somewhere like Vegas if you live nearby and take in some dinner shows. Go on a bus tour of wine country. Take a one day course at a culinary school on baking or learning to make appetizers, or cooking soups or casseroles, artisan bread making . They have tons of classes you can take on a Saturday. Take a jewelry making class together or stained glass or ceramics. Go to a day spa.

If your grandmothers are still alive, you could include them in an all girls day out and if you have a daughter it could be a generational thing. Take photos.

You could save all the tickets and scraps of paper from the trip or whatever you choose to do and make a collage of the 'memory', frame it and give it to your mother.

Find something you can do together to make a memory.

These are not Christmas gifts. Christmas gifts are wrapped and mailed and put under a tree. (Although we don't have a tree.)  This is why all my ideas are rejected. Because the things I want wrapped are then discarded as not good ideas. And the non-tangible things don't count as gifts.

I have made an exceptional amount of time for her since my daughter was born. She's visited 3 times this year. I just went down for Thanksgiving, missing time with my husband. I scheduled a conference in her hometown this summer so that I could stay with them before hand and she could see my daughter during the week. We've invited them on our summer vacation next year to Canada.  Living more than a thousand miles away there is only so much I can do- every vacation cannot be to see my mother.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2018, 09:46:02 AM »
***Loving*** your clarity, I'm a red panda!

partgypsy

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2018, 10:05:33 AM »
I kind of get your mother. when I got my first real job and before kids, I really wanted to get my Mom a NICE gift for Christmas and also for mother's day. But NOT something boring a practical. Which ended up being me getting her some nice pieces of jewelry that she wears, rarely (I also got her some stuff that was more useful, like winter coat, new mattress, etc). Part of it honestly, is that I liked shopping and this was a way to justify some shopping, since it was more fun and less guilt inducing than buying for myself, and I did feel some guilt that I lived far away.  She has repeated enough times what she wants is CASH (and I'm in a different financial place too), that's what I do. The point of a gift is to please the other person and make that person happy; it's not about you.
 
I used to be really into gifts, both giving and receiving and spending a lot of time trying to pick out the perfect thing. But to tell you the truth most people are not all that into gifts and have limited space and storage. And expensive gifts can make people feel uncomfortable.

A few years ago we really tried to get away from the big gift giving and sent a letter ahead of time to the parents (grandparents), that we are moving to gift small gifts (more like stocking stuffers) for the adults. And that we set up college savings account for the kids, and here is the account #'s, and gift to that account is always appreciated.
AND I always have an amazon account with a wish list for the kids and me, in case someone HAS to gift something physical. (Nothing over $50). 

In my place if that happened to me, I would say something like, we are really moving towards not exchanging gifts between the adults, nothing over ($) give specific number. If you do have to give me something, here is my amazon list as well as some charities I support. If they then complain that is not sufficient repeat gifting is optional and they can choose not to give a gift and it's the thought that counts. And then ignore. Life is too short.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 10:11:42 AM by partgypsy »

Cassie

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2018, 12:18:28 PM »
Would a gift card to a nice restaurant in your area qualify as a nice enough gift for your mom?   Wow I can’t relate as my relationship with both my parents was always excellent. They both are gone.  If all your suggestions are not good enough I would probably just ignore the requests.  I would refuse to act phony in order to satisfy her.

dcheesi

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2018, 12:24:30 PM »
I've got one brother & SIL that always give each of us a big bag full of crap from Wal-Mart as "stocking stuffers". It's usually a mix of the worst cheapo candy combined (sometimes in the same item) with worthless toys and trinkets that wind up in the landfill sooner after. Not a big deal compared to what some of you folks are dealing with, but the wastefulness of it always irks me.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2018, 12:52:11 PM »
I've got one brother & SIL that always give each of us a big bag full of crap from Wal-Mart as "stocking stuffers". It's usually a mix of the worst cheapo candy combined (sometimes in the same item) with worthless toys and trinkets that wind up in the landfill sooner after. Not a big deal compared to what some of you folks are dealing with, but the wastefulness of it always irks me.

My MIL always buys us crap from Big Lots. She spends about $15 each for it, $15 she doesn't really have to be spending.  I don't really want it, but she at least tries to tailor it to the person she is giving it to, which I think is what makes a good gift.

BlueHouse

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2018, 12:55:43 PM »
My mother did this for years.  When I started giving her very specific lists and VERY POSITIVE reinforcement instead, she learned that I was serious about what I was asking for.   Now she gets a kick out of telling me that someone who helped her pick out my request said "Oh No She Didn't" when my mom said I asked for a "Cotton White, Elongated Toilet Seat, with soft close". 

As soon as mom described the feedback from the sales person, I thought she might have been confused and re-bought last year's gift, because that was the exact same response when I demanded an ice pick. 

p.s.  ice picks are awesome and until a few years ago were almost impossible to find.  I credit my mother's searching online and in person with getting the ice pick availability started again.

Point:  Give VERY SPECIFIC lists, right down to the brand name.  Explain why you want the item and how much better your life will be once you have it.  After you receive one, praise her for getting exactly what you wanted!  For my mom, she really just wanted to make me happy and convincing her that these things make me happy finally did the trick.   Good luck!  I hope your mom wants you to be happy and just doesn't believe yet that these things will do it. 

Roadrunner53

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2018, 01:07:50 PM »
I would ask for stock. The stock certificate can be wrapped and put under the tree. Each year, more stock can be requested. Either the same stock or a different one.

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1211/how-to-give-a-stock-for-christmas.aspx

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2018, 01:29:04 PM »
I would ask for stock. The stock certificate can be wrapped and put under the tree. Each year, more stock can be requested. Either the same stock or a different one.

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1211/how-to-give-a-stock-for-christmas.aspx

I've tried this and got laughed at. She tells me I think about money too much and I'll get plenty of stock from them when they die.

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2018, 03:59:21 PM »
My dad sent us an Alexa last year.  When I opened it I also felt a sense of dread.  It was just more proof he doesn’t get me at all.

We let our 9 year old son have the Alexa and he really just uses it to listen to music sometimes or cheat on his math homework.  It's in his room so I don’t feel we’re being spied on, but I still unplug it a lot.

SavinMaven

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2018, 10:23:29 AM »
I have similar problems, and get that it's a nice first-world problem to have, but it's also not really about the gifts - it's a relationship problem, so it stings. So forget about the usual notions of gift-giving, and focus on what maintains and sustains the relationship:

Your mom has certain notions of what makes a 'good' gift, and therefore, makes her a 'good' mother by giving it to you. The trick is to figure out what her criteria are (useful or beautiful? unique or common? price range?) and then match that against what you could either return for the cash or re-gift. It has worked for me to ask for things I already have (like a kitchen appliance as my mom values useful), return the new one, and if/when she comes over, there it is on the counter, lovingly in use.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2018, 11:05:56 AM »
Tell us what she has given you in the past that she thought was a nice gift for you?

Was it acceptable and did you like it?

Stocks are no good, your ideas are no good. What does she think is good?

Does she want to buy you jewelry, expensive perfume, designer purses?

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2018, 04:22:45 PM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

Do you have smart phones that are apple or android, perhaps a android tablet/iPad, or even an apple computer/chromebook?

If so, perhaps you could simply say that you are too deeply embedded in google's/apple's ecosystem and adding a digital assistant from a rival ecosystem proved too frustrating for you.

Of course when a google home mini shows up the next year . . . well at least it has a switch to turn off the microphone.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2018, 04:59:42 PM »
Update: she "just bought me something useful"

So I got a pack of 3 socks.  Which is nice.
They are from Lululemon which is disappointing, and my Mom actually probably wouldn't shop there if she knew the mysoginistic history of the CEO.  Bonus, they are maroon and sparkly, good qualities. But oh my, god: a 3 pack cost $40+$8 shipping.

I do like socks, but I used the phrase "my sock drawer is full" less than 2 weeks ago when discussing gifts so the "your opinion doesn't count" continues.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2018, 04:48:31 AM »
Quote
maroon and sparkly

Excellent.

Quote
so the “your opinion doesn’t count” continues

Sucks.

charis

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2018, 07:36:31 AM »
I can understand your frustration at this dynamic with your mom, but I don't understand the practical problem here.  I never mind getting gifts that I don't need or won't use because I can give or re-gift them to someone who does.  I mean, I get gifts like this all the time from family members.  Occasionally I will return something but it's rare.  Fancy socks sound like a great compromise here.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2018, 08:06:16 AM »
I can understand your frustration at this dynamic with your mom, but I don't understand the practical problem here.  I never mind getting gifts that I don't need or won't use because I can give or re-gift them to someone who does.  I mean, I get gifts like this all the time from family members.  Occasionally I will return something but it's rare.  Fancy socks sound like a great compromise here.

I don't really get re-gifting. To do that I'd have to figure out someone in my life who needs fancy socks and would enjoy receiving them and who also doesn't know my mother.  I mostly just give gifts to children in my family or daycare providers - so who could get socks?

Returning isn't really an option because there is zero I could buy at lululemon with the credit. $38 on socks is basically the lowest price thing there other than a headband.

I guess I will have to find somewhere to put them until I get holes in another pair of socks. My sock drawer is LITERALLY full.  They are also thinner than socks I wear, since I only wear socks in the winter with tennis shoes, but hopefully they will be warm enough.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2018, 09:40:01 AM »
The moment after I’ve received either a gift or an imposition, I’m allowed (by me) to give it to the thrift. Someone out there will feel very happy at your gift!

My older sister used to “gift” me with things I didn’t want, with countless conditions (what I could do with them, whether I could alter them, when I could wear them, etc). Once I started the above system, she stopped giving me stuff. It’s been awesome.

Cassie

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2018, 09:52:40 AM »
If I get a gift that doesn’t suit me I either keep it until I find someone that would like it or take it to the thrift store.

iris lily

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2018, 10:11:24 AM »
How about "I'm sorry that you didn't find anything on my wish list I'd like to have.  What didn't you like about them?  Did you have something else in mind?"

There's a sorta-old saying: "seek first to understand, then to be understood."  Rather than first trying to push Mom into doing something *you* want, try to figure out what *she* wants out of the gift-giving experience. 

Just this month, I found myself in a similar position as your Mom--a lot of the things on my wife's wish list are things that don't excite me to give, that aren't meaningful to me.  I've had to set aside my own biases and realize that in this case, DW will enjoy receiving them a lot more than I will enjoy giving them.

What a lovely post, one I should take to heart. I am a gifting curmudgeon like the OP and there are people in my life that are like her mother.  dear god they are so hard to deal with this time of year when all of the unwanted stuff piles into my house at the same time I am decluttering. I use winter months for decluttering and it is difficult to have more of this crap come in.

I realize I should open my heart more to the gifting frenzy, It would be good for me.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:33:53 AM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2018, 10:14:19 AM »
On the topic of awkward family gift situations...

I opened a package from my relatives, and inside was a bag containing what I'm pretty sure is an Alexa.

We are not gadget/tech people, and we are incredibly wary of the Alexa-type things in particular.  We don't want an Amazon device listening in on us, feeding us cryptic ads, suggesting stuff to buy, or slowly taking over control of our home like in an 80s horror film.

I felt a sense of dread wash over me to receive this, because... with a lot of gifts, you just can stick them in a drawer or donate them and never speak of them again.   But this is a noteworthy gift.  They will be checking in with us to see how we like it and how we have adapted it into our domestic world.  They will smile to themselves, imagining us engaging in banter with Alexa.  But secretly we want to smash Alexa with a hammer.

I love this post so much, especially after spending yesterday evening in an Alexa household where we talked quite a bit to Alexa. She was unable  fill some of our requests,  she did not understand others, and then it’s all blurted  out through tinny cheap audio equipment.

The only reason to like Alexa is because she has a lovely clear speaking voice.

No please save me from Alexa
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:21:06 AM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Annual Christmas Rant.
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2018, 10:25:43 AM »
In the true spirit of this thread, let’s confess:  have you thrown away any Christmas gifts so far this year?


I have already pitched about six Christmas gifts this year. One I specially drove to the thrift store because  it had a Christmas theme and it would be popular with thrift store people, and I Wanted it on their sales floor for this season. And if I sound dismissive of thrift stores I don’t mean to because I am a thrift store person I do shop at thrift stores.