Author Topic: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?  (Read 9372 times)

moustachebar

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2025, 09:41:21 AM »
Have to agree. Seems to go well past checking for abuse.

Highbeam

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2025, 11:14:00 AM »
Back to the thread title, for us, if this 80x the federal minimum wage loophole is really in there then no problemo. Who doesn't have 580$ of gross income in the FIRE community?

seattlecyclone

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2025, 11:37:57 AM »
Back to the thread title, for us, if this 80x the federal minimum wage loophole is really in there then no problemo. Who doesn't have 580$ of gross income in the FIRE community?

Read it for yourself.

Quote
(2)Community engagement compliance described—
Subject to paragraph (3), an applicable individual demonstrates community engagement under this paragraph for a month if such individual meets 1 or more of the following conditions with respect to such month, as determined in accordance with criteria established by the Secretary through regulation:

(A)The individual works not less than 80 hours.
(B)The individual completes not less than 80 hours of community service.
(C)The individual participates in a work program for not less than 80 hours.
(D)The individual is enrolled in an educational program at least half-time.
(E)The individual engages in any combination of the activities described in subparagraphs (A) through (D), for a total of not less than 80 hours.
(F)The individual has a monthly income that is not less than the applicable minimum wage requirement under section 6 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, multiplied by 80 hours.

farmecologist

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2025, 11:42:52 AM »
Back to the thread title, for us, if this 80x the federal minimum wage loophole is really in there then no problemo. Who doesn't have 580$ of gross income in the FIRE community?

Read it for yourself.

Quote
(2)Community engagement compliance described—
Subject to paragraph (3), an applicable individual demonstrates community engagement under this paragraph for a month if such individual meets 1 or more of the following conditions with respect to such month, as determined in accordance with criteria established by the Secretary through regulation:

(A)The individual works not less than 80 hours.
(B)The individual completes not less than 80 hours of community service.
(C)The individual participates in a work program for not less than 80 hours.
(D)The individual is enrolled in an educational program at least half-time.
(E)The individual engages in any combination of the activities described in subparagraphs (A) through (D), for a total of not less than 80 hours.
(F)The individual has a monthly income that is not less than the applicable minimum wage requirement under section 6 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, multiplied by 80 hours.


Interesting.  Thanks!   

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2025, 12:03:33 PM »
Back to the thread title, for us, if this 80x the federal minimum wage loophole is really in there then no problemo. Who doesn't have 580$ of gross income in the FIRE community?

Read it for yourself.

Quote
(2)Community engagement compliance described—
Subject to paragraph (3), an applicable individual demonstrates community engagement under this paragraph for a month if such individual meets 1 or more of the following conditions with respect to such month, as determined in accordance with criteria established by the Secretary through regulation:

(A)The individual works not less than 80 hours.
(B)The individual completes not less than 80 hours of community service.
(C)The individual participates in a work program for not less than 80 hours.
(D)The individual is enrolled in an educational program at least half-time.
(E)The individual engages in any combination of the activities described in subparagraphs (A) through (D), for a total of not less than 80 hours.
(F)The individual has a monthly income that is not less than the applicable minimum wage requirement under section 6 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, multiplied by 80 hours.
Since that section is in community engagement it must refer to having a job that pays at least minimum wage.  In other words you can't do a self-employ and pay yourself under minimum wage.  But I am just guessing.

obstinate

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2025, 12:44:07 PM »
Since that section is in community engagement it must refer to having a job that pays at least minimum wage.  In other words you can't do a self-employ and pay yourself under minimum wage.  But I am just guessing.
Seems like an odd guess considering the plain language of the statute says otherwise.

moustachebar

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2025, 01:06:22 PM »
Would it be up to the agency to determine how to apply that standard?

Seems weird to make it hard for people with lower incomes and not middle incomes who may have similar complex factors. Why not apply this to ACA as well? My understanding is Medicaid is more coat efficient than ACA on a per patient basis, and it keeps small and rural hospitals afloat as well... Places that will have to treat people who cannot pay when they lose Medicaid.

FIREin2018

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2025, 01:19:22 PM »
Back to the thread title, for us, if this 80x the federal minimum wage loophole is really in there then no problemo. Who doesn't have 580$ of gross income in the FIRE community?

Read it for yourself.

Quote
(2)Community engagement compliance described—
Subject to paragraph (3), an applicable individual demonstrates community engagement under this paragraph for a month if such individual meets 1 or more of the following conditions with respect to such month, as determined in accordance with criteria established by the Secretary through regulation:

(A)The individual works not less than 80 hours.
(B)The individual completes not less than 80 hours of community service.
(C)The individual participates in a work program for not less than 80 hours.
(D)The individual is enrolled in an educational program at least half-time.
(E)The individual engages in any combination of the activities described in subparagraphs (A) through (D), for a total of not less than 80 hours.
(F)The individual has a monthly income that is not less than the applicable minimum wage requirement under section 6 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, multiplied by 80 hours.
That's $580 at Fed minimum wage. (Higher if the state instituted higher min wage?)

So it's just income (ie: dividends/bank interest/profit from stock sales) and not earned income?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2025, 01:22:24 PM by FIREin2018 »

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2025, 01:27:47 PM »
Since that section is in community engagement it must refer to having a job that pays at least minimum wage.  In other words you can't do a self-employ and pay yourself under minimum wage.  But I am just guessing.
Seems like an odd guess considering the plain language of the statute says otherwise.
The wording is poor, but getting unearned income logically makes no sense as the section is about community engagement and how is getting just any income engaging you in the community?

wageslave23

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2025, 02:39:49 PM »
As a long time tax professional, it's not really worth it to spend time analyzing every single tax bill until it actually passes. It will change back and forth several times before passing or not. And even after it passes, there will be challenges and rulings and more interpretations. 

kite

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2025, 02:52:52 PM »
80 hours/month of work, school or community service?

I can’t wrap my head around why that’s a problem.

I don't think most people would have issues with clearly defined and reasonable work requirements, it's more the paperwork that is involved and having an understaffed, red tape laden government you have to interface with.  Do you foresee Congress providing a streamlined app / online form that provides quick feedback on insufficient documentation?  And don't forget, the goal is to find hundreds of billions in savings, so they need to go cheap on the IT / staffing and are incentivized to kick as many people off Medicaid as they can...

There’s not a need for a new app, this is a few new fields to track in an existing monitoring/data-sharing system. The IRS already catches up with you if you’ve over-claimed a subsidy based on your income.

So you wouldn't have a problem doing 80 hours for ACA subsidies as well?  Logically that would fall right into line with your line of thought.

My spouse and I reap a subsidy benefit worth about $20,000 right now. I want to do little more than putter in my garden & hang out with my dog. So on the surface, it would seem like this proposal would hit me. And yet when I tabulate the hours I spend volunteering and in some form of community service, it comes pretty close. I don’t look at it as work that makes me deserving of anything, I’m just being a normal part of the community in which I live. I give about 4-5 hours a week to the bereavement ministry of my church, a few shifts per month at a food pantry, I have 2 elderly neighbors I take to get food and to medical appointments, and I do some unpaid consulting for a refugee to help launch his business.

We could use a more robust CCC or WPA program, but almost anything is preferable to perfectly healthy folks too young for Medicare not doing anything to benefit their community or their future-selves thru education.
It was shortsighted of the president to cancel American Climate Corps, IMO.

seattlecyclone

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2025, 03:25:41 PM »
Since that section is in community engagement it must refer to having a job that pays at least minimum wage.  In other words you can't do a self-employ and pay yourself under minimum wage.  But I am just guessing.
Seems like an odd guess considering the plain language of the statute says otherwise.
The wording is poor, but getting unearned income logically makes no sense as the section is about community engagement and how is getting just any income engaging you in the community?

"Community engagement" is whatever they define it to be in the law. They define it in this proposed law to include having income over 80x the poverty level. If they wanted to restrict it to earned income rather than any income, they could have easily written in that way.

Paul der Krake

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2025, 04:20:35 PM »
As a long time tax professional, it's not really worth it to spend time analyzing every single tax bill until it actually passes. It will change back and forth several times before passing or not. And even after it passes, there will be challenges and rulings and more interpretations.
Say it louder for the people in the back!

FIREin2018

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2025, 09:16:53 PM »
DC already making cuts to Medicaid for 2026 budget to make up shortfalls from less federal workers:
https://wtop.com/dc/2025/05/more-than-25000-dc-residents-to-be-moved-off-medicare-in-mayors-proposed-budget/

The proposed changes would involve making childless adults and adult caregivers who make between $21,597 and $31,200, or 138% to 200% of the federal poverty level, ineligible for Medicaid, which is paid for by both the city and federal government. The move is expected to impact 25,575 residents.


Wait... 200% poverty still gets you free Medicaid in DC??
I was living in the wrong place for Fire
« Last Edit: May 28, 2025, 09:19:52 PM by FIREin2018 »

Paul der Krake

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2025, 09:29:32 PM »
DC already making cuts to Medicaid for 2026 budget to make up shortfalls from less federal workers:
https://wtop.com/dc/2025/05/more-than-25000-dc-residents-to-be-moved-off-medicare-in-mayors-proposed-budget/

The proposed changes would involve making childless adults and adult caregivers who make between $21,597 and $31,200, or 138% to 200% of the federal poverty level, ineligible for Medicaid, which is paid for by both the city and federal government. The move is expected to impact 25,575 residents.


Wait... 200% poverty still gets you free Medicaid in DC??
I was living in the wrong place for Fire
38% of California's population is on Medicaid. The state is somehow home to 15 million people who live near poverty, but somehow they manage to house themselves on those poverty wages in one of the most expensive jurisdictions in the world. It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

Daley

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2025, 10:06:05 PM »
It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

'Aint that the truth! Shit, I've heard there's even an entire website of rich assholes on the internet who cosplay pretending to be poor just to fully exploit getting maximum deductions on their healthcare by fully exploiting the loopholes in the social safety net, while hoarding millions of dollars of funds in a market optimized to steal the wages of millions of workers to help pay for the expenses of investors who refuse to work, instead of just paying for their fair share.

I bet you they're even actively working out right now, before the law has even finalized, on how to continue to manipulate their wealth in ways to make sure they can exploit and still qualify under the new restrictions while the actual poor people who need that healthcare get hosed and kicked to the curb. And are even going so far as to mock the struggling, working poor in HCOL states who are living hand to mouth as being deadbeats abusing the system.

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2025, 01:04:27 AM »
DC has its own rules, and it was like 210% FPL for Medicaid. 

Kentucky has about 1/3 of the population on Medicaid, if this passes the blowback will be awesome.

reeshau

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2025, 08:21:34 AM »
It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

'Aint that the truth! Shit, I've heard there's even an entire website of rich assholes on the internet who cosplay pretending to be poor just to fully exploit getting maximum deductions on their healthcare by fully exploiting the loopholes in the social safety net, while hoarding millions of dollars of funds in a market optimized to steal the wages of millions of workers to help pay for the expenses of investors who refuse to work, instead of just paying for their fair share.

I bet you they're even actively working out right now, before the law has even finalized, on how to continue to manipulate their wealth in ways to make sure they can exploit and still qualify under the new restrictions while the actual poor people who need that healthcare get hosed and kicked to the curb. And are even going so far as to mock the struggling, working poor in HCOL states who are living hand to mouth as being deadbeats abusing the system.

Touche'!

I am comfortable enough to not be morally conflicted about optimizing my situation within the stated rules.  I am sure a lot of people I would judge as abusing the system say the same thing.  But there are plenty of other pieces of my atypical situation which don't fit, to my detriment, that I don't think "maximum system benefits" is a feature of FIRE.

Kapyarn

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2025, 03:41:28 PM »
Touche'!

I am comfortable enough to not be morally conflicted about optimizing my situation within the stated rules.  I am sure a lot of people I would judge as abusing the system say the same thing.  But there are plenty of other pieces of my atypical situation which don't fit, to my detriment, that I don't think "maximum system benefits" is a feature of FIRE.

Meh, if you are following the rules, any benefit is acceptable.  Let he/she who has never gotten a EV credit, solar credit, spousal social security benefit, tax free employer provided insurance, etc. cast the first stone.

FIREin2018

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2025, 04:54:39 PM »
Doesn't Obamacare provide better healthcare than Medicaid?
I pay $50/month for Obamacare and I get pretty good coverage.
$5 copay for PCP I've had for 10yrs before Fire, 5% copay specialists
Chiropractors suck but does Medicaid have them?

I think hospitals is 50% copay but my yearly out of pocket cap is $1500
« Last Edit: May 29, 2025, 05:14:15 PM by FIREin2018 »

seattlecyclone

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2025, 05:25:55 PM »
Doesn't Obamacare provide better healthcare than Medicaid?

This will really depend on where you live and what medical care you need.

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2025, 03:31:34 AM »
Medicaid has a $200 a year max OOP and you legally can't be billed.  Hard to beat that.

moustachebar

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2025, 07:19:28 AM »
Low wage work exists everywhere, even in HCOL places. Housing in a HCOL area for low wage earners "works" in a lot of dicey ways:

extreme distance commuting from areas with weak economies and MCOL to areas with strong economies and HCOL
manufactured housing that doesn't retain value/ isn't as durable/ can't be sold/ can't be borrowed against/ requires HOA or park fees
inherited housing or housing bought before the market explosion or paid off by someone who can only find low wage work now
multiple families to a house
moving around the state to find work
living in vehicles
seasonal tourism, ag employment, or multiple jobs that come and go
wages under the table
dropping out of school for a paycheck
all of the above and more in combination

For the average lower to middle class working person I think CA can be a brutal grind. Even if you can manage to get the next generation into a better situation, the current generation will have worse health or earlier death because of these requirements. 80 hours a month is a lot to maintain if your life is unstable.

TyGuy

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2025, 10:31:30 AM »


38% of California's population is on Medicaid. The state is somehow home to 15 million people who live near poverty, but somehow they manage to house themselves on those poverty wages in one of the most expensive jurisdictions in the world. It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

@Paul der Krake

Its almost like those 15 million people are spending 80-90% on a crappy housing situation with nothing left over for other costs in their lives. But yeah, screw those people, they don't deserve healthcare. You should try living on minimum wage in a city in California, it might give you some perspective. You make an assumption that 38% of the population is part of "rampant abuse" but don't have actual information to support this abuse, just your assumption, which I'm/We are supposed to take as a fact. Show some kindness in this world and reevaluate your assumptions.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Communit
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2025, 05:46:45 PM »
Let’s see there are about 850,000 people who work at least seasonally in agriculture in CA alone.  You add in other low paying jobs and their children it’s not that far fetched.  Yes we have a lot of people making a lot of money in the larger urban areas, but have you ever been to Eureka?

Arbitrage

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2025, 09:01:03 AM »
Touche'!

I am comfortable enough to not be morally conflicted about optimizing my situation within the stated rules.  I am sure a lot of people I would judge as abusing the system say the same thing.  But there are plenty of other pieces of my atypical situation which don't fit, to my detriment, that I don't think "maximum system benefits" is a feature of FIRE.

Meh, if you are following the rules, any benefit is acceptable.  Let he/she who has never gotten a EV credit, solar credit, spousal social security benefit, tax free employer provided insurance, etc. cast the first stone.

I think there's far more tax avoidance that I'd qualify as 'abuse' of loopholes and/or lack of oversight in the realms of real estate, corporations, and small businesses than in a handful of people trying to get health insurance.  It's pretty amazing what a small business owner can justify as a business expense.

MMMarbleheader

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2025, 05:04:40 AM »
https://www.axios.com/2025/05/30/gop-megabill-affordable-care-act

Biggest concern for me pre-fire and having not been on the ACA before is:

It would also prevent enrollees from provisionally receiving ACA subsidies in instances where extra eligibility checks are needed, which can take months.


For those who have signed up, does this happen? Is it only a red state issue? I have not heard of it but don't have any first hand knowledge.

reeshau

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2025, 06:51:46 AM »
https://www.axios.com/2025/05/30/gop-megabill-affordable-care-act

Biggest concern for me pre-fire and having not been on the ACA before is:

It would also prevent enrollees from provisionally receiving ACA subsidies in instances where extra eligibility checks are needed, which can take months.


For those who have signed up, does this happen? Is it only a red state issue? I have not heard of it but don't have any first hand knowledge.

Rather, it's not a red state issue, because they haven't bothered.  My income, which is almost entirely long-term capital gains from my taxable account, has varied pretty widely year-to-year, as I invest in individual stocks.  This means I am making transactions for more than just funding my spending.  I settle up with my tax return each year, but have not in 5 years been asked for any kind of documentation to verify my estimates.

MrGreen

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2025, 09:42:31 AM »
https://www.axios.com/2025/05/30/gop-megabill-affordable-care-act

Biggest concern for me pre-fire and having not been on the ACA before is:

It would also prevent enrollees from provisionally receiving ACA subsidies in instances where extra eligibility checks are needed, which can take months.


For those who have signed up, does this happen? Is it only a red state issue? I have not heard of it but don't have any first hand knowledge.
Because our insurance company will take payment via credit card, we considered paying full boat during the year and then getting it all back at tax-time just for the spending. The credit card churning one could do with 15-20k of health insurance spending alone would probably be in the thousands.

Fru-Gal

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2025, 01:52:23 PM »
https://www.axios.com/2025/05/30/gop-megabill-affordable-care-act

Biggest concern for me pre-fire and having not been on the ACA before is:

It would also prevent enrollees from provisionally receiving ACA subsidies in instances where extra eligibility checks are needed, which can take months.


For those who have signed up, does this happen? Is it only a red state issue? I have not heard of it but don't have any first hand knowledge.

Rather, it's not a red state issue, because they haven't bothered.  My income, which is almost entirely long-term capital gains from my taxable account, has varied pretty widely year-to-year, as I invest in individual stocks.  This means I am making transactions for more than just funding my spending.  I settle up with my tax return each year, but have not in 5 years been asked for any kind of documentation to verify my estimates.

Same here. From what i have read, it’s better to take the subsidy up front rather than claim for it on your taxes. If need be you would pay some back with your taxes. We haven’t had to do that. Our kids are young adults now so it will be interesting to see what happens when it’s just 2 of us on the ACA plan.

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2025, 06:23:24 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

secondcor521

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2025, 06:38:28 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

I'm no longer on a Silver plan, but I thought it was possible to sign up on the exchange for a Silver plan and also decline the APTC.

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2025, 06:52:56 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

I'm no longer on a Silver plan, but I thought it was possible to sign up on the exchange for a Silver plan and also decline the APTC.
You need APTCs to get cost sharing reductions on the Silver plans.

secondcor521

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2025, 08:01:06 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

I'm no longer on a Silver plan, but I thought it was possible to sign up on the exchange for a Silver plan and also decline the APTC.
You need APTCs to get cost sharing reductions on the Silver plans.

I thought the only requirements to get CSRs were to sign up for a Silver plan on the exchange and report an estimated income below the appropriate FPL levels (150%/200%/250% IIRC).  I thought APTCs were separate.

Kapyarn

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2025, 04:13:28 PM »
Welp, with this current Trump Elon fight, I don't think the ACA subsidy thing will be in the spotlight for awhile.  Big Beautiful Bill is pretty dead.

seattlecyclone

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2025, 07:22:16 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

I'm no longer on a Silver plan, but I thought it was possible to sign up on the exchange for a Silver plan and also decline the APTC.
You need APTCs to get cost sharing reductions on the Silver plans.

I thought the only requirements to get CSRs were to sign up for a Silver plan on the exchange and report an estimated income below the appropriate FPL levels (150%/200%/250% IIRC).  I thought APTCs were separate.

Do exchanges tend to actually ask you if you want the APTC applied to your premiums based on the income you reported, or do they just tend to give it to you by default? I'd imagine a pretty small minority of people on these income levels has the capacity to pay up front for their premiums, and a small minority of that small minority has any desire to even consider doing that.

bacchi

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2025, 08:53:08 PM »
One big downside to not taking Advanced PTCs is no Silver plan CSRs for income under 250% FPL.

I'm no longer on a Silver plan, but I thought it was possible to sign up on the exchange for a Silver plan and also decline the APTC.
You need APTCs to get cost sharing reductions on the Silver plans.

I thought the only requirements to get CSRs were to sign up for a Silver plan on the exchange and report an estimated income below the appropriate FPL levels (150%/200%/250% IIRC).  I thought APTCs were separate.

Do exchanges tend to actually ask you if you want the APTC applied to your premiums based on the income you reported, or do they just tend to give it to you by default? I'd imagine a pretty small minority of people on these income levels has the capacity to pay up front for their premiums, and a small minority of that small minority has any desire to even consider doing that.

They do ask. The applicant can accept anywhere from $0 to the full APTC.

FIREin2018

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2025, 05:45:24 AM »
Welp, with this current Trump Elon fight, I don't think the ACA subsidy thing will be in the spotlight for awhile.  Big Beautiful Bill is pretty dead.
You sure the big bogus bill is dead?
Repubs still are pretty receptive of it despite Musk's  schizophrenia half now objecting to it
« Last Edit: June 06, 2025, 06:14:36 AM by FIREin2018 »

Arbitrage

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2025, 02:54:55 PM »
Welp, with this current Trump Elon fight, I don't think the ACA subsidy thing will be in the spotlight for awhile.  Big Beautiful Bill is pretty dead.
You sure the big bogus bill is dead?
Repubs still are pretty receptive of it despite Musk's  schizophrenia half now objecting to it

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'll pass in some form soon, likely with big cuts to Medicaid or even Medicare that are claimed to be the 'waste, fraud and abuse.'  The Repub senators who were initially claiming that Medicare shouldn't be touched are starting to fall in line with the spin that any cuts are simply in those categories. 

ACA, though, still looks mostly safe, other than the enhanced stuff that's sunsetting.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2025, 07:03:32 AM »
Welp, with this current Trump Elon fight, I don't think the ACA subsidy thing will be in the spotlight for awhile.  Big Beautiful Bill is pretty dead.
You sure the big bogus bill is dead?
Repubs still are pretty receptive of it despite Musk's  schizophrenia half now objecting to it

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'll pass in some form soon, likely with big cuts to Medicaid or even Medicare that are claimed to be the 'waste, fraud and abuse.'  The Repub senators who were initially claiming that Medicare shouldn't be touched are starting to fall in line with the spin that any cuts are simply in those categories. 

ACA, though, still looks mostly safe, other than the enhanced stuff that's sunsetting.

While I agree that the BBB won't outright kill ACA, is will do it's darndest to inflict mortal wounds - https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2025/06/08/big-beautiful-bill-likely-to-reverse-affordable-care-act-gains-in-coverage/

Quote
Changes in the ACA marketplace would make coverage more expensive, as enhanced tax credits expire, and harder to obtain as open enrollment windows shorten, the paperwork burden for beneficiaries increases and automatic re-enrollment ends. Americans who purchase health coverage through the ACA marketplace exchanges could also soon face higher out-of-pocket maximums in their coverage plans, which means higher cost-sharing.

Arbitrage

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2025, 10:44:26 AM »
Welp, with this current Trump Elon fight, I don't think the ACA subsidy thing will be in the spotlight for awhile.  Big Beautiful Bill is pretty dead.
You sure the big bogus bill is dead?
Repubs still are pretty receptive of it despite Musk's  schizophrenia half now objecting to it

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it'll pass in some form soon, likely with big cuts to Medicaid or even Medicare that are claimed to be the 'waste, fraud and abuse.'  The Repub senators who were initially claiming that Medicare shouldn't be touched are starting to fall in line with the spin that any cuts are simply in those categories. 

ACA, though, still looks mostly safe, other than the enhanced stuff that's sunsetting.

While I agree that the BBB won't outright kill ACA, is will do it's darndest to inflict mortal wounds - https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2025/06/08/big-beautiful-bill-likely-to-reverse-affordable-care-act-gains-in-coverage/

Quote
Changes in the ACA marketplace would make coverage more expensive, as enhanced tax credits expire, and harder to obtain as open enrollment windows shorten, the paperwork burden for beneficiaries increases and automatic re-enrollment ends. Americans who purchase health coverage through the ACA marketplace exchanges could also soon face higher out-of-pocket maximums in their coverage plans, which means higher cost-sharing.

Fair enough.  I'm doing my best not to follow the ins and outs of the proposed bill, as it's something outside my control, and will still have multiple changes before it passes.  Yes, I could call my representatives, but they're already voting against it. 

Tempname23

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2025, 07:03:48 AM »
It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

'Aint that the truth! Shit, I've heard there's even an entire website of rich assholes on the internet who cosplay pretending to be poor just to fully exploit getting maximum deductions on their healthcare by fully exploiting the loopholes in the social safety net, while hoarding millions of dollars of funds in a market optimized to steal the wages of millions of workers to help pay for the expenses of investors who refuse to work, instead of just paying for their fair share.

I bet you they're even actively working out right now, before the law has even finalized, on how to continue to manipulate their wealth in ways to make sure they can exploit and still qualify under the new restrictions while the actual poor people who need that healthcare get hosed and kicked to the curb. And are even going so far as to mock the struggling, working poor in HCOL states who are living hand to mouth as being deadbeats abusing the system.

 We're soul mates! I have said a very similar idea in posts, but not nearly as eloquently. The usual response is, it's legal, it's the way the law was written. Well said Daley.

Fru-Gal

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2025, 10:39:47 AM »
It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

'Aint that the truth! Shit, I've heard there's even an entire website of rich assholes on the internet who cosplay pretending to be poor just to fully exploit getting maximum deductions on their healthcare by fully exploiting the loopholes in the social safety net, while hoarding millions of dollars of funds in a market optimized to steal the wages of millions of workers to help pay for the expenses of investors who refuse to work, instead of just paying for their fair share.

I bet you they're even actively working out right now, before the law has even finalized, on how to continue to manipulate their wealth in ways to make sure they can exploit and still qualify under the new restrictions while the actual poor people who need that healthcare get hosed and kicked to the curb. And are even going so far as to mock the struggling, working poor in HCOL states who are living hand to mouth as being deadbeats abusing the system.

 We're soul mates! I have said a very similar idea in posts, but not nearly as eloquently. The usual response is, it's legal, it's the way the law was written. Well said Daley.

This worldview is no more effective than “let them eat cake”.

What if people who no longer commute or consume excessive goods were good for the planet? What if people like me have lifted entire families out of poverty? What if cancer, diabetes, addiction and other debilitating conditions spared no one in their families, yet they were able to enjoy care until the end because of basic changes to the law included in the ACA such as no preexisting conditions restrictions and no lifetime coverage limits?

What if instead of being “rich assholes,” FIRE adherents were ACTUALLY modeling the kind of balanced economic system — based on principles such as essentialism, systems thinking and ephemeralization — that is the only way forward for humans on this planet?

THAT is another worldview.

Feel free to block me now, I’m used to it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2025, 11:52:29 AM by Fru-Gal »

FIREin2018

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2025, 10:29:26 PM »
It doesn't take a genius to suspect there's rampant abuse.

'Aint that the truth! Shit, I've heard there's even an entire website of rich assholes on the internet who cosplay pretending to be poor just to fully exploit getting maximum deductions on their healthcare by fully exploiting the loopholes in the social safety net, while hoarding millions of dollars of funds in a market optimized to steal the wages of millions of workers to help pay for the expenses of investors who refuse to work, instead of just paying for their fair share.

I bet you they're even actively working out right now, before the law has even finalized, on how to continue to manipulate their wealth in ways to make sure they can exploit and still qualify under the new restrictions while the actual poor people who need that healthcare get hosed and kicked to the curb. And are even going so far as to mock the struggling, working poor in HCOL states who are living hand to mouth as being deadbeats abusing the system.

 We're soul mates! I have said a very similar idea in posts, but not nearly as eloquently. The usual response is, it's legal, it's the way the law was written. Well said Daley.
Ironic that you're on a FiRE site posting this.
Obamacare is income based, not asset.
People who FiRE can get max subsidies if their AGI is at most 150% poverty, which is $22.5k.

And it's a sliding scale (no cliff) till 400% poverty.
https://www.kff.org/health-policy-101-the-affordable-care-act/?entry=table-of-contents-how-much-do-people-pay-for-marketplace-plans-and-how-are-subsidies-calculated

From lower on that page, there is a cliff in max cost sharing (silver plan):
Plan Type   Income Level,   Individual,   Family
CSR Silver Plan 94% AV   100% - 150% FPL   $3,150   $6,300
CSR Silver Plan 87% AV   151% - 200% FPL   $3,150   $6,300
CSR Silver Plan 73% AV   201% - 250% FPL   $7,550   $15,100

So 150% ($22.5k) and 200% ($30k) are basically the cliffs you want but the max limits seem to be wrong for the middle lvl since it's the same?

edit:
How do multi-millionaires get around agi limit? dividends from their stocks will put them over the limit for max subsidies
« Last Edit: June 17, 2025, 11:04:51 PM by FIREin2018 »

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2025, 10:43:55 PM »
It isn't "abuse" to qualify for a program and sign up for it.  Are people "abusing" Social Security when they sign up for it at 62?  No. 

Idiots get their talking points and go marching out with them.

Paul der Krake

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2025, 12:12:26 AM »
It isn't "abuse" to qualify for a program and sign up for it.  Are people "abusing" Social Security when they sign up for it at 62?  No. 

Idiots get their talking points and go marching out with them.
I have zero problem with people who actually qualify for programs getting them. I know you use Medicaid in New York, and while I wouldn't do that myself, like, great? I don't care, good for you for finding something that works for you. I'm pretty sure you actually qualify for this.

Coming back to my California example which clearly ruffled some feathers:

California minimum wage: $16.50/hour, roughly $34k/year.
Medicaid cutoff: $21k/year for single, $29k for a married couple
Californians on Medicaid: 38%

Yes this includes children, the disabled, etc.

Do you really think there are that many people who honest to God make this little money (less than minimum wage) yet somehow manage to live in the most expensive state in the country? I don't. Last I checked landlords want real money, not vibes. My explanation is widespread under-reporting of income in the service and gray-market economy, which then qualifies that population for Medicaid (and a bunch of other programs).

Couple this with a state who has made it its policy to qualify as many people as possible without asking too many questions (the feds pick up most of the tab) and you get those high-popping numbers that stretch credulity.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

jim555

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2025, 01:38:35 AM »
You site an example of possible real fraud, but that is not what was being said before.  Before it was being said anyone who is on it and is retired is an example of "abuse".  My point is it isn't "abuse" to get on it and not be lying about facts to do so.

Your assertion that because a large percentage of people are on means therefore it must be a fraud doesn't follow either.  33% of Kentucky is on Medicaid, that doesn't mean most of those on it are lying.  Your logic holds no water.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 01:44:32 AM by jim555 »

Ron Scott

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2025, 08:40:26 AM »
IAs make mistakes obviously, but here’s what ChatGPT said just now:
_________

Here’s what the House‑passed reconciliation bill (H.R. 1, the “One Big Beautiful Bill Act”) means for ACA/Medicaid eligibility—especially if you retire at age 40 with little to no income:


🧩 The New Work Requirement
   •   Who’s affected? Able-bodied adults ages 19–64 without dependents covered under Medicaid expansion (up to 138% FPL)  .
   •   What’s required? 80 hours per month of paid work, volunteering, schooling, or community service, starting by December 31, 2026, with states verifying compliance every six months—and even once before initial enrollment  .
   •   Exemptions include pregnancy, serious medical conditions, caregivers, veterans, tribal members, etc.  .



🔍 Why It Matters for Early Retirees at 40
   •   Income-based eligibility disrupted. Retiring on savings means no earned income, but until now, you could stay enrolled via Medicaid expansion or subsidized Marketplace plans (if income below ~138%–400% FPL).
   •   With work requirements: If you have no earned income AND no qualifying exemption, you’ll likely lose coverage, even if you’re otherwise low-income.
   •   Administrative burden is real. States would require documentation monthly and at every redetermination—similar past programs have caused high dropout rates, even among those who worked  .



📊 Scope of Impact
   •   Estimated coverage loss: ~5–6 million adults could lose Medicaid coverage; CBO projects ~4.8 million by 2034  .
   •   Marketplace effects: The bill also imposes “dramatic changes” to ACA/Mktplace rules, further risking coverage for low-income enrollees .



💡 What You Can Do as an Early Retiree
   1.   Confirm your exemption status. If you qualify (e.g., due to medical conditions), you’re excluded—but documentation will be required.
   2.   Plan for paid activity. You may need at least 80 hours/month of volunteering or part-time work—even if it’s unpaid or minimal pay—to keep eligibility.
   3.   Watch for state implementation of processes by 2026. States must implement the system; how strictly they enforce varies.
   4.   Have backup plans. Consider private insurance or budgeting for coverage gaps if work/documentation lapses.



✅ Summary

The House bill marks a major shift: Medicaid expansion and ACA marketplace access can no longer be based purely on low income or asset levels—you now also must work or be exempt. As a 40‑year‑old retiree with no earned income, you face a real risk of losing coverage unless you engage in qualifying activities or file for and maintain an exemption. Monitoring your state’s implementation plan and planning ahead for compliance/documentation are crucial.

obstinate

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2025, 08:59:19 AM »
Anyone can access the chatgpt if they want a chatgpt generated answer. Please don't pollute the forum by regurgitating this stuff onto it.

TyGuy

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Re: An end to ACA Subsidies for the FIRE Community?
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2025, 10:07:05 AM »
It isn't "abuse" to qualify for a program and sign up for it.  Are people "abusing" Social Security when they sign up for it at 62?  No. 

Idiots get their talking points and go marching out with them.
I have zero problem with people who actually qualify for programs getting them. I know you use Medicaid in New York, and while I wouldn't do that myself, like, great? I don't care, good for you for finding something that works for you. I'm pretty sure you actually qualify for this.

Coming back to my California example which clearly ruffled some feathers:

California minimum wage: $16.50/hour, roughly $34k/year.
Medicaid cutoff: $21k/year for single, $29k for a married couple
Californians on Medicaid: 38%

Yes this includes children, the disabled, etc.

Do you really think there are that many people who honest to God make this little money (less than minimum wage) yet somehow manage to live in the most expensive state in the country? I don't. Last I checked landlords want real money, not vibes. My explanation is widespread under-reporting of income in the service and gray-market economy, which then qualifies that population for Medicaid (and a bunch of other programs).

Couple this with a state who has made it its policy to qualify as many people as possible without asking too many questions (the feds pick up most of the tab) and you get those high-popping numbers that stretch credulity.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

God forbid people are living in multi-generation households, have roommates, live in communal settings, or are un-housed. But lets just push the narrative that because it is California, there must be rampant abuse. This is a community/form of love and inspiration to improve the world. Your bigotry is not welcomed here.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 10:09:19 AM by TyGuy »