Author Topic: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?  (Read 6428 times)

Dicey

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Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« on: April 08, 2021, 12:14:32 PM »
Last night at the dinner table, we were talking about Amazon. Specifically, the way they treat their employees, their distribution methods and their seemingly insatiable need mammoth distribution centers.

Recently, an underutilized mall in our region had outlined a plan for allowing RV's and car campers to use their unused lots for long term parking. The plan had both city and community support, but it was mysteriously quashed when the city changed its mind. Now, the place is crawling with Amazon trucks.

Today's news brings this, and suddenly the reason for the city's change of heart seems much clearer.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amazon-buying-dead-malls-reason-162839847.html

Anyone seeing similar things in their areas?

Sidebar rant: There is a Costco in San Leandro that's been there for decades. A few years ago, Amazon moved in next door, and suddenly the Costco parking lot is crowded with Amazon trucks. Why? Because it's "too hard" for the drivers to get out of their own damned distribution canter, so they shortcut through the always busy Costco parking lot. Fuckers.

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 12:29:06 PM »
Yes. There are two Amazon distribution centers near Cleveland that were built on dead mall property. Randall Park Mall and Euclid Square Mall. Those malls died a looong time ago and were starting to physically decay.

Fun fact. Randall Park was the largest shopping mall in the world when it first opened.

robartsd

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 12:49:09 PM »
This makes a lot of sense. The malls were hubs of consumer product distribution in the past, the form of that distribution has changed - now the malls are being converted to match that change.

Sidebar rant: There is a Costco in San Leandro that's been there for decades. A few years ago, Amazon moved in next door, and suddenly the Costco parking lot is crowded with Amazon trucks. Why? Because it's "too hard" for the drivers to get out of their own damned distribution canter, so they shortcut through the always busy Costco parking lot. Fuckers.
I wouldn't be surprised if Costco decides at some point to reorganize the parking lot to make getting between it an the Amazon distribution center much more difficult.

Telecaster

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 01:12:29 PM »
Certain amount of irony in Amazon murdering the malls and then building new Amazon buildings on the ashes. 


Jenny Wren

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 01:51:26 PM »
Certain amount of irony in Amazon murdering the malls and then building new Amazon buildings on the ashes.

Well, there's precedent. Look at Walmart building on the ashes of the mom and pops they drove out of business...

Just Joe

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 02:34:05 PM »
So is Amazon refurbishing the mall buildings and utilizing them?

That would be a good use for a big, expensive piece of real estate. I deplore seeing vacant real estate go to waste. So resource intensive to put up such a monstrosity and then let it rot down ~25 years later when the neighborhood has changed and no longer wants the mall.

By the River

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 02:47:40 PM »
A couple of weeks ago, they started razing an old mall in Baton Rouge to build a distribution center for Amazon. 

pegleglolita

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 03:02:57 PM »
A couple of weeks ago, they started razing an old mall in Baton Rouge to build a distribution center for Amazon.

Huh, I haven't lived in BR for a long time but if you'd have asked me 20 years ago which mall would be razed to turn into something else I would've gone with Bon Marche!  I hope they are recycling all those bzillions of pounds of brick and concrete, but it's America so they'll probably coat it with DDT and ground up baby seals and stick it in a landfill. 

dang1

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 04:07:40 PM »
actually, if it’s the West CoCo mall, the neighborhood assn fought against the unhoused rv parking (Safe Parking Program)- our local facebook groups and nextdoor hella blew up, lol. In addition to government funding, the developer is also putting money into the rv program- but assn is firm no. Then the site was gonna be moved to another neighborhood- boom, fb and nextdoor goes nucular, lol. This from a city with majority democratic socialists in the city council, 3x lol. smh

I suppose Amazon- yeah, but also actually, I have a relative working her way up the corp ladder, seems like so far so good. She was working in McD’s, started out part-time 6 yrs ago at an Amazon warehouse. Now, a 1st level warehouse manager. Told us recently, part of her bonus is 6 amzn’s. But yeah, working there overall, I suppose, ymmv

Bateaux

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2021, 05:30:12 PM »
A couple of weeks ago, they started razing an old mall in Baton Rouge to build a distribution center for Amazon.

Huh, I haven't lived in BR for a long time but if you'd have asked me 20 years ago which mall would be razed to turn into something else I would've gone with Bon Marche!  I hope they are recycling all those bzillions of pounds of brick and concrete, but it's America so they'll probably coat it with DDT and ground up baby seals and stick it in a landfill.

It's Cortana Mall.  Everything had died there.  Actually glad Amazon bought it.

Dicey

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2021, 05:30:34 PM »
This makes a lot of sense. The malls were hubs of consumer product distribution in the past, the form of that distribution has changed - now the malls are being converted to match that change.

Sidebar rant: There is a Costco in San Leandro that's been there for decades. A few years ago, Amazon moved in next door, and suddenly the Costco parking lot is crowded with Amazon trucks. Why? Because it's "too hard" for the drivers to get out of their own damned distribution canter, so they shortcut through the always busy Costco parking lot. Fuckers.
I wouldn't be surprised if Costco decides at some point to reorganize the parking lot to make getting between it an the Amazon distribution center much more difficult.
They would if they could, but it was always tight. There are only two entry/exit points and a busy gas station. In fact, the Amazon location itself made it difficult to use the secondary entrance/exit, which involves the gas station. It was the Amazon trucks that started coming in via that point, then snaking through the always crowded parking lot to the primary entry/exit that really made a mess of things. I think if Amazon used the actual street/intersection they're located on and stayed the hell out of the Costco parking lot (WTF Amazon? You know exactly what your drivers are doing.) all would be reasonably well. Further, why should Costco have to spend money to mitigate Amazon's egregiousness?

Dicey

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2021, 05:39:56 PM »
actually, if it’s the West CoCo mall, the neighborhood assn fought against the unhoused rv parking (Safe Parking Program)- our local facebook groups and nextdoor hella blew up, lol. In addition to government funding, the developer is also putting money into the rv program- but assn is firm no. Then the site was gonna be moved to another neighborhood- boom, fb and nextdoor goes nucular, lol. This from a city with majority democratic socialists in the city council, 3x lol. smh

I suppose Amazon- yeah, but also actually, I have a relative working her way up the corp ladder, seems like so far so good. She was working in McD’s, started out part-time 6 yrs ago at an Amazon warehouse. Now, a 1st level warehouse manager. Told us recently, part of her bonus is 6 amzn’s. But yeah, working there overall, I suppose, ymmv
Nothing I had read gave any reason for pulling the plug. However a targeted Google search served up this:

"The property is in the process of being sold to Prologis, a logistics company which, according to Mayor Tom Butt’s e-forum newsletter, plans to build a logistics center there, “along with housing, perhaps a Walmart upgraded to include a complete grocery supermarket and some other retail, commercial or industrial uses.”

And this:
"The plans have rankled...community leaders, who say no one had reached out to them or their neighbors for their input."

Sounds like a lot of arrogance on the part of the city's civic leaders. Most communities recognize the housing/homeless problems and don't want to turn into Oakland or Berkeley. Better communication might have served up something that the entire community could have agreed upon or at least lived with for a specific period of time. Instead, someone like Amazon will likely buy it for a song. The civic unrest probably played right into their hands, er, wallet.

Dicey

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2021, 05:47:56 PM »
So is Amazon refurbishing the mall buildings and utilizing them?

That would be a good use for a big, expensive piece of real estate. I deplore seeing vacant real estate go to waste. So resource intensive to put up such a monstrosity and then let it rot down ~25 years later when the neighborhood has changed and no longer wants the mall.
I've been thinking about this a lot. My wild-ass scenario is that Amazon will buy up all these now-distressed properties at fire sale prices. They will fit their distribution centers into a section of their newly acquired malls, then open wholly owned shops/amusement centers in the rest of the space. Shoppers will see examples of what they want in artfully laid out stores and the orders will be fulfilled from the warehouse portion of the (former) mall. Think of how the IKEA showrooms operate.

Think it's nuts? Anyone been in one of the new Amazon Bookstores? Typically there are only a couple of copies of each title, plus a bunch of other not-book items on display. They give you a discount if you have prime for having what you want shipped directly to your home.

It's a brave new world.

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2021, 06:28:59 PM »
So is Amazon refurbishing the mall buildings and utilizing them?

That would be a good use for a big, expensive piece of real estate. I deplore seeing vacant real estate go to waste. So resource intensive to put up such a monstrosity and then let it rot down ~25 years later when the neighborhood has changed and no longer wants the mall.
I've been thinking about this a lot. My wild-ass scenario is that Amazon will buy up all these now-distressed properties at fire sale prices. They will fit their distribution centers into a section of their newly acquired malls, then open wholly owned shops/amusement centers in the rest of the space. Shoppers will see examples of what they want in artfully laid out stores and the orders will be fulfilled from the warehouse portion of the (former) mall. Think of how the IKEA showrooms operate.

Think it's nuts? Anyone been in one of the new Amazon Bookstores? Typically there are only a couple of copies of each title, plus a bunch of other not-book items on display. They give you a discount if you have prime for having what you want shipped directly to your home.

It's a brave new world.

If Amazon does there what they did in Cleveland, they will probably demolish the old mall in order to build a new dedicated DC. The DCs here are big, flat and have like 70 trailer doors. I don't think retail space would work for how they operate their DCs.

PDXTabs

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2021, 06:35:57 PM »
Certain amount of irony in Amazon murdering the malls and then building new Amazon buildings on the ashes.

Amazon didn't murder those malls, or at least not many of them. The USA built way too much retail space. In fact, the USA has 5x the retail space as the UK. Also, abandoned malls are a blight on the community. Andrew Yang actually wrote about this in some depth in The War on Normal People.

So, I don't love Amazon's labor or anti-competitive practices, and we should do something about them. But I also hate suburban malls.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2021, 07:45:57 PM »
They're coming for your house next, peon! You will receive notice and have 30 minutes to pack up and get out before the bulldozers are unleashed!!! (Just like when the IOC scum comes to town to set up for the games.)

PRO TIP: If you pee in a jar or other nearby receptacle, you can save some precious seconds gathering up your family photos and knick-knacks, loser.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 07:48:43 PM by ObviouslyNotAGolfer »

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2021, 08:05:10 PM »
Certain amount of irony in Amazon murdering the malls and then building new Amazon buildings on the ashes.

Amazon didn't murder those malls, or at least not many of them. The USA built way too much retail space. In fact, the USA has 5x the retail space as the UK. Also, abandoned malls are a blight on the community. Andrew Yang actually wrote about this in some depth in The War on Normal People.

So, I don't love Amazon's labor or anti-competitive practices, and we should do something about them. But I also hate suburban malls.

I actually agree with you there. As much as I hate Amazon's slave labor practices (I am pivoting away from them!), the mall's retailers were not a whole lot better, and malls are a huge waste of space. I love to think of dead malls being demolished and the land turned into parks, gardens, or just reverting to nature--but that is certainly a pipe dream. In the HELL A area, the land will be used for "luxury" condos (700 sq feet) "From the low 800s".

Nevertheless, I much, much, much rather buy stuff online (incl. Amazon) than brave the crowds, parking hassles, and noise of the stupid mall.

The comparison in terms of retail space between the U.S. and U.K. is interesting. My wife and I were just discussing how awesome the small grocery stores (supermarkets I guess some of them would be) in Germany, France, and other EU countries. In a space less than half of the typical U.S. supermarket, you have an awesome selection of awesome affordable/cheap wines, beers, cheeses, chocolates, FRESH breads, meats, fish, produce (oranges I ate in Ireland are better than the ones we get in California).

Meanwhile, in Murica, we have endless aisles of potato chips, 2L sodas, crappy candy bars, crappy processed meats and cheeses...



« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 08:13:24 PM by ObviouslyNotAGolfer »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 08:23:43 PM »
I don't think Amazon is 'slave labour'. If people don't want to work there they are free not to. Your job reflects your skillset.

I love Amazon and I hope they keep taking over the world.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 08:46:39 PM »
Amazon has proposed to buy up a Lowe's in south Seattle, plus the neighboring property to use for a distribution center. Seems an unfortunate underuse of land so close to one of our few light rail stations; would be much better to have a big apartment building there. But hey, if they want to pay top dollar for that land, so be it.

ObviouslyNotAGolfer

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 09:26:51 PM »
..Your job reflects your skillset sheer dumb luck.


FTFY. A ridiculous generalization to be sure, but, I think, no more so than your statement.

In terms of "choice", I would think that in the vast majority of cases--given the well-documented inhumane conditions, at least in the fulfillment centers--the "choice" is: either put up with it, or live on the street with no health insurance and horrific conditions. (In the Loss Angeles area, homeless people are dying of TYPHUS!!)  Some "choice".

I guess you could also say that the African-American slaves were free not to work  too: Either work or get tortured to death--but you're still "free" to make the choice!

« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:33:52 PM by ObviouslyNotAGolfer »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 09:32:53 PM »
Pretty sure African-American slaves operated under a different economic system than today's workers - unless you want to analogise today's free market with that of slavery. Which rather seems to undersell the enormity of slavery.

Also, I guess you could say it was sheer dumb luck that someone, for example, worked hard in school, got a scholarship to university, passed demanding medical school exams, trained for 7 years to become a surgeon, etc; whereas another person dropped out of high school, gained no qualifications and works at Amazon. It's just luck which separates them, I suppose, from a deterministic point of view (if you're going to get really philosophical) in that all the atoms had already been set in motion.

Also, I suppose the choice might be said to be to put up with it or find another job; the same choice you and I have, as (presumably) non-Amazon workers. But then, I suppose you could also insist on dichotomising the aspect of choice (see free will argument above).

I think you raise some intriguing points. How do I subscribe to your newsletter?

PDXTabs

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 11:41:52 PM »
Certain amount of irony in Amazon murdering the malls and then building new Amazon buildings on the ashes.

Amazon didn't murder those malls, or at least not many of them. The USA built way too much retail space. In fact, the USA has 5x the retail space as the UK. Also, abandoned malls are a blight on the community. Andrew Yang actually wrote about this in some depth in The War on Normal People.

So, I don't love Amazon's labor or anti-competitive practices, and we should do something about them. But I also hate suburban malls.

I actually agree with you there. As much as I hate Amazon's slave labor practices (I am pivoting away from them!), the mall's retailers were not a whole lot better...

So again, I don't want to let Amazon off the hook for any labor problems or anti-competitiveness, but in my locale they pay ~40% more than the local mall per hour ($15~16 per hour vs Oregon minimum wage of $11.25).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 09:16:02 AM by PDXTabs »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 02:28:00 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

dbfire

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 03:50:26 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

How about the ability to go to the bathroom without fear that they will be fired? The ability to start a union to protect their current and future rights without fear that they will be fired?

Perhaps we can start there with what they "want". AKA basic human rights that extend beyond a living wage.

chemistk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 07:03:24 AM »
Amazon is really just an inevitability. Walmart could have easily beat them to the model if they weren't so focused on physical locations at the time that Jeffy B. was expanding ecommerce.

The irony about Amazon buying up these defunct properties is that Sears has every opportunity to be Amazon - they held (and still do technically) massive amounts of real estate, all of which was very well positioned to become micro distribution centers (aka exactly what Amazon is doing now). All they needed to do was get their heads out of their asses and turn their famous mail order catalogs into an ecommerce version, but then we'd all be railing about the dominance of Sears and their shitty practices.

Although Amazon is just being opportunistic, it's still really shitty - sure they pay $15 an hour, but for the vast majority of workers there's little to no chance at upward mobility. Often Amazon is also the only game in town, and even if someone is reasonably skilled and intelligent there's still a really good chance they would just end up working for Amazon because they don't have the means to escape the area they were raised in - since Amazon had edged out so many other small businesses.

But darker than that, Amazon is systematically competing with sellers on its own platform across nearly every category. They are deliberately making themselves the only game in town - just look at all the Amazon Basics or other Amazon branded products across a huge range of categories now. You can't compare it to store-brand (like Kirkland, or Great Value, etc.) either because Amazon is taking data on every transaction, scraping every review, and figuring out just how it can manufacture its onw products to edge out and eventually eliminate the competition within its own platform.

Roll that into AWS, Prime Video, its publishing house, Prime Music, Whole Foods, and what do you get? A fucking monopoly. A monopoly which is glad to crush the will of its own workers. Amazon workers in most segments are completely fungible, not a great thing for people who need a stable job.

I think the statistic is that 8% of all things bought or sold in the US are down through Amazon.

And they've used that power to crush local economies that decide to insource a warehouse - seeking massive tax breaks, preferential treatment, and carte blanche to set themselves up to be as efficient as possible while giving fuckall to the people who actually live there.

Those Amazon vans driving through Costco? They're saving themselves a few precious seconds to get their first deliveries out, because all those drivers know that the guy with the worst stats for whatever period Amazon evaluates them over is going to be canned, so who gives a fuck about the Costco shoppers? I've got to get my first delivery out.

But like I said, it's an inevitability. We literally asked for this to happen. Maybe not people here, but I know I have had a hand in it, and much of the country has as well. An endless catalog of products, at some of the lowest prices, delivered faster than anyone else? Sounds great, as long as you pretend there are no societal implications associated with those asks.

Amazon's not the only bad guy, but boy are they the worst of them.


LaineyAZ

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 08:12:33 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

How about the ability to go to the bathroom without fear that they will be fired? The ability to start a union to protect their current and future rights without fear that they will be fired?

Perhaps we can start there with what they "want". AKA basic human rights that extend beyond a living wage.

Add to that the infamous "pick rate" requirements.  Workers in their 30s are getting carpal tunnel syndrome, among other issues, because of the insane pace of work.  Do we customers really need to get our items the very next day? 

My own father, who died over 20 years ago, worked as a delivery driver for a large company on the East Coast for decades.  He was paid an average wage but he had benefits including health insurance and a pension.  He owned a small home, car, and supported a family of 8.  He was home every evening by 5pm.  He never had to pee in a bottle.  And guess what?  The company thrived.

Why are we normalizing Amazon's working conditions and Jeff Bezos being the world's richest man?   

chemistk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2021, 09:18:41 AM »
Why are we normalizing Amazon's working conditions and Jeff Bezos being the world's richest man?

Because your average American just wants things delivered as fast as possible to their door. It sucks that the pandemic only further crystallized that need.

Look at how hard it is now to find stuff online from small businesses. Even if people aren't buying from Amazon, most are still cross-shopping - and ultimately there's a huge selection of products that's just only available from Amazon.

PDXTabs

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 09:19:43 AM »
But darker than that, Amazon is systematically competing with sellers on its own platform across nearly every category. They are deliberately making themselves the only game in town - just look at all the Amazon Basics or other Amazon branded products across a huge range of categories now. You can't compare it to store-brand (like Kirkland, or Great Value, etc.) either because Amazon is taking data on every transaction, scraping every review, and figuring out just how it can manufacture its onw products to edge out and eventually eliminate the competition within its own platform.

Roll that into AWS, Prime Video, its publishing house, Prime Music, Whole Foods, and what do you get? A fucking monopoly. A monopoly which is glad to crush the will of its own workers. Amazon workers in most segments are completely fungible, not a great thing for people who need a stable job.
...
But like I said, it's an inevitability. We literally asked for this to happen. Maybe not people here, but I know I have had a hand in it, and much of the country has as well. An endless catalog of products, at some of the lowest prices, delivered faster than anyone else? Sounds great, as long as you pretend there are no societal implications associated with those asks.

Did we? Because last time I checked we still live in a country with laws about monopolies, we just haven't chosen to enforce them in my lifetime. As a casual observer there would seem to be ample evidence to break up Amazon. If it is anything like Ma Bell or Standard Oil then competitors, shareholders, workers, and customers would all be better off.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 09:34:42 AM by PDXTabs »

chemistk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 09:35:53 AM »
But darker than that, Amazon is systematically competing with sellers on its own platform across nearly every category. They are deliberately making themselves the only game in town - just look at all the Amazon Basics or other Amazon branded products across a huge range of categories now. You can't compare it to store-brand (like Kirkland, or Great Value, etc.) either because Amazon is taking data on every transaction, scraping every review, and figuring out just how it can manufacture its onw products to edge out and eventually eliminate the competition within its own platform.

Roll that into AWS, Prime Video, its publishing house, Prime Music, Whole Foods, and what do you get? A fucking monopoly. A monopoly which is glad to crush the will of its own workers. Amazon workers in most segments are completely fungible, not a great thing for people who need a stable job.
...
But like I said, it's an inevitability. We literally asked for this to happen. Maybe not people here, but I know I have had a hand in it, and much of the country has as well. An endless catalog of products, at some of the lowest prices, delivered faster than anyone else? Sounds great, as long as you pretend there are no societal implications associated with those asks.

Did we? Because last time I checked we still live in a country with laws about monopolies, we just haven't chosen to enforce them in my lifetime. As a casual observer there is ample evidence to break up Amazon, and if it is anything like Ma Bell or Standard Oil then competitors, shareholders, workers, and customers would all be better off.

Amazon has massive leverage in state and Federal governments, which is why it (and other tech giants) are still mostly intact. It absolutely needs to be busted apart. AWS alone is such a huge business, let alone its fulfillment and media arms.

We did ask for it. We, collectively, asked for cheap products delivered to our door as fast as possible. And Amazon rose to that need. Others have too, but obviously those aren't the subject of this conversation. I will be the first to admit that I have been complicit in my life - as a consumer I have frequently chosen two day shipping for something I could have just not bought immediately.

Convenience is tempting. I don't think Jeff was sitting in his garage in the 90's thinking about some master-scheme to become the world's richest man, he was just trying to build a business that would earn him a comfortable living. We all got used to it without caring about the other side of things (which, arguably, was a deliberate political/marketing move on the part of Amazon).

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 09:41:16 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

How about the ability to go to the bathroom without fear that they will be fired? The ability to start a union to protect their current and future rights without fear that they will be fired?

Perhaps we can start there with what they "want". AKA basic human rights that extend beyond a living wage.

I hate to sound like the corporate guy, but if you have an entry job at an Amazon FC, you don't have (many) job skills.  Amazon pays $15/hour starting, plus full benefits on day one.  For entry level, that's pretty good.  You don't get that at Wal-Mart. 

And they do have the right to form a union.  They voted this week in Bessemer Alabama to unionize. Looks like the motion will be defeated. 

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2021, 09:57:50 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

How about the ability to go to the bathroom without fear that they will be fired? The ability to start a union to protect their current and future rights without fear that they will be fired?

Perhaps we can start there with what they "want". AKA basic human rights that extend beyond a living wage.

Their efficiency targets are a contractual matter between the employee and employer. As for unionising they should have the ability to unionise if they wish. How is it legal for Amazon to prevent employees forming a union?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2021, 10:00:00 AM »
I'm not convinced Amazon has dione anything wrong. They pay above min wage and they provide consumers what they want.

Low skilled workers are getting paid a liveable wage and not getting robotised. What more could they want?

How about the ability to go to the bathroom without fear that they will be fired? The ability to start a union to protect their current and future rights without fear that they will be fired?

Perhaps we can start there with what they "want". AKA basic human rights that extend beyond a living wage.

I hate to sound like the corporate guy, but if you have an entry job at an Amazon FC, you don't have (many) job skills.  Amazon pays $15/hour starting, plus full benefits on day one.  For entry level, that's pretty good.  You don't get that at Wal-Mart. 

And they do have the right to form a union.  They voted this week in Bessemer Alabama to unionize. Looks like the motion will be defeated.

Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

Paul der Krake

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2021, 10:06:08 AM »
Can we designate our beloved mall parking lots as historical landmarks to preserve the neighborhood's character?

Jenny Wren

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2021, 10:11:39 AM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Fishindude

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2021, 10:21:17 AM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teaching is a part time job, 180 days per year, compared to most jobs 250 days per year.
The wages really aren't too bad when considering the days / hours worked.    Many teachers I know that want a little more income work second jobs in the summers.



FINate

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2021, 10:39:04 AM »
Can we designate our beloved mall parking lots as historical landmarks to preserve the neighborhood's character?

^^^You win the forums today!!

Malls had their moment and that was a good thing in their heyday, but they're now passé. Time to repurpose this prime real estate. Build housing, parks, mixed residential/retail, and yes, even Amazon distribution centers.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2021, 10:50:28 AM »
Regarding Amazon warehouse working conditions, everyone should be entitled to take a real bathroom break as needed without fearing for their job. I'd be happy to see governments and/or unions step in to enforce that. Beyond that...while this job sounds like difficult, physically taxing labor, are we really to suggest that such employment is inhumane, that an employer should not expect their employees to hustle and work hard for their whole shift?

I do think this highlights the importance of a basic income program though. Plenty of people are physically incapable of meeting the standards at an Amazon warehouse, and if that's the main employer in their town what are they to do? Meanwhile the threat of these jobs being eliminated by automation is very much real. Amazon has already automated much of their operation, and will continue to do so incrementally as the technology improves to become cheaper than hiring a human to perform the same task.

dbfire

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2021, 11:44:24 AM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teaching is a part time job, 180 days per year, compared to most jobs 250 days per year.
The wages really aren't too bad when considering the days / hours worked.    Many teachers I know that want a little more income work second jobs in the summers.

Teaching is a 7 day a week job, that extends daily outside of "working hours" on weekdays. Lesson plans do not create themselves. Papers do not grade themselves. Conversations with parents do not take place during work hours.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 11:46:20 AM by dbfire »

chemistk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2021, 11:57:34 AM »
Regarding Amazon warehouse working conditions, everyone should be entitled to take a real bathroom break as needed without fearing for their job. I'd be happy to see governments and/or unions step in to enforce that. Beyond that...while this job sounds like difficult, physically taxing labor, are we really to suggest that such employment is inhumane, that an employer should not expect their employees to hustle and work hard for their whole shift?

I do think this highlights the importance of a basic income program though. Plenty of people are physically incapable of meeting the standards at an Amazon warehouse, and if that's the main employer in their town what are they to do? Meanwhile the threat of these jobs being eliminated by automation is very much real. Amazon has already automated much of their operation, and will continue to do so incrementally as the technology improves to become cheaper than hiring a human to perform the same task.

Your second paragraph is the real devil in the details - in many places where Amazon moves to town, they soon become the main, or at least the most appealing (in terms of compensation) employer.

But Amazon would just as soon have robots doing 100% of everything distribution and logistics employees do.

In most of these places that aren't part of a larger metro area, it is a real issue - you're either working directly for Amazon or indirectly (dropshipping, logistics, etc.). If you're physically incapable of doing the job then you're SOL (and plenty of people are for reasons that aren't related to obesity). And if your skillset is good enough to get you out, but you don't have the money to, then you're also SOL.

And again, $15/hr is nice but it's not enough to support a family, which many people are in these areas. You have enough cash to get by but not to get out, and there's nothing else around.

chemistk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2021, 12:01:01 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teaching is a part time job, 180 days per year, compared to most jobs 250 days per year.
The wages really aren't too bad when considering the days / hours worked.    Many teachers I know that want a little more income work second jobs in the summers.

Teaching is a 7 day a week job, that extends daily outside of "working hours" on weekdays. Lesson plans do not create themselves. Papers do not grade themselves. Conversations with parents do not take place during work hours.

Completely agree. Sure, you "get" summers and holidays off but it's not like teachers are jetsetting around the world on breaks.

And let's not forget that teachers almost always have to pay for many things out of their own pockets.

This constant hate toward teachers just creates a self-fulfilling prophecy - let's not pay teachers more/give them more respect because they're doing a bad job -> leads to fewer 'great' teachers entering the profession -> leads to more hate toward teachers because they seem to be getting worse -> so on.

Cool Friend

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2021, 03:19:20 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

The context for understanding Bloop Bloop Reloaded's posts is that he believes poor people are poor because of their "inferior genes," whereas he--of course--is an übermensch. His egocentric worldview requires rationalizations like the above one; it is too difficult and painful for him to imagine anything but a tautologically just world.  That's the kind of person you're talking to.

mm1970

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2021, 03:34:57 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.
Plus, I don't give a rat's ass what your skills are.  Why is it okay for companies to make it impossible for their employees to pee, skills or not? 

maizefolk

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2021, 06:20:20 PM »
Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I sometimes think that Australia and the US using the same name and symbol for our currencies is a real problem on this forum because it causes people to equate things which are not equivalent.

Point of information: My understanding is that in Australia the minimum wage is ~$20 AUD/hour. So I would imagine $15 USD/hour must sound like a wage someone gets for just showing up and having a pulse to you. However our minimum wage is $7.25 USD/hour. Someone working full time for $15 USD/hour is already in the middle one third of the income distribution in our country (the low end of the middle 3rd for sure, but still a middle of the distribution income).

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2021, 07:18:33 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teachers get paid $26,000 a year where you live? You'll be happy to know that in Australia a teacher with a few years' experience gets north of $80,000 a year - not bad for a job with very modest entry requirements.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2021, 07:20:14 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teaching is a part time job, 180 days per year, compared to most jobs 250 days per year.
The wages really aren't too bad when considering the days / hours worked.    Many teachers I know that want a little more income work second jobs in the summers.

Teaching is a 7 day a week job, that extends daily outside of "working hours" on weekdays. Lesson plans do not create themselves. Papers do not grade themselves. Conversations with parents do not take place during work hours.

Eh, but the school hours themselves are what, 8am-3pm or whatever? So you have a shortened work day to begin with.

It'd be like me complaining that on trial days sometimes I have to put in 17 hour days or get up at 4am to read a long brief for a 10am commencement. Bet that's something a teacher never has to do.

Each job has its own attributes.

Telecaster

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2021, 08:48:03 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

There are a couple different ideas that are being conflated here.  If a teacher with a bachelor's degree and teaching certificate is making say, $36,000/year and working 14 hours a day for 200 days a year, that works out to be about  $13/hour.  If that's the actually case, then that is a scathing indictment of our educational system, but that has nothing to do with Amazon.  If that's really the case, run for school board because something is screwed up.

On the other hand, if you don't have a bachelor's degree, and otherwise have limited job skills then $15/hour plus full benefits is a pretty good job.  Them's just the facts.  Now, we may wish to reconsider, debate, and discuss the value of human labor in today's society, but right now $15/hour plus full benefits as a starting wage is a pretty good job.  That statement is not a commentary on how much teachers are paid.

Dicey

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2021, 11:26:33 PM »


Yeah I'm not convinced anyone earning $15/hour has much by way of transferable skills. Otherwise he or she wouldn't be earning $15/hour

I'll be sure to pass that on to the teachers I know whose salaries work out to about $13 an hour. They already know they are undervalued, so maybe they should take those useless skills to the Amazon warehouse.

Jesus, the disconnect and privilege in some of these comments is astounding.

Teaching is a part time job, 180 days per year, compared to most jobs 250 days per year.
The wages really aren't too bad when considering the days / hours worked.    Many teachers I know that want a little more income work second jobs in the summers.
Oh, shit. I think it's popcorn time.

ETA:  I wrote this earlier today and it didn't post. Looks like it's not too late to FIRE up the air popper...

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2021, 01:10:41 AM »
Put it this way, there's no doubt in my mind teaching is not one of the harder jobs. If you gave me the choice of being a teacher, Amazon worker or doctor for the same pay, I'd choose teacher every day of the week.

former player

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2021, 02:32:09 AM »
Oh dear.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Amazon Buying Up "Dead" Malls?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2021, 04:02:27 AM »
But I guess at the end of the day, subject to the proviso that there should be a safety net that makes sure everyone has food and shelter (regardless of whether working or not), I'm happy for the free market to dictate wages.