Author Topic: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?  (Read 14310 times)

David Lurie

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Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« on: August 22, 2014, 07:48:31 PM »
I know I am new to this forum, but I swear I am not a detractor to any of the principles or values held by this community. I firmly believe that our lives are better by simplifying, spending less money, spending more time, staying physically fit, taking the effort to do what feel uncomfortable but may have upside, etc. I think all of these things are absolutely crucial to living a better life.

I also love and deeply want to be financially independent. Relying on a job or someone else for your livelihood is a way to go through life, but it gives you no leverage. As everyone who's ever negotiated anything knows, leverage makes the difference. So, becoming financially independent is awesome. I love this goal. I want to get here ASAP.

This leaves us with the "RE" part of FIRE, and the reason why I cannot STAND this term. For me, "retirement" has nothing to do with leaving a job for a new opportunity, losing a job and pursuing a new opportunity, or any of permutation thereof. "Retirement" means leaving things behind. It means "retiring" from life, not just a job or a career track. When you look at it this way, hardly anyone that is financially independent and enjoying themselves would qualify as "retired." You might ask, well how do we distinguish between FI people who have left their "career" jobs and FI people that still maintain those "career" jobs. My response is, why does it matter? Just do whatever it takes to make the most of life. For people that are chained to a job to pay their expenses, well, there's a way out of that, a way to gain more leverage, principally by cutting expenses and saving more. But, when you get to that stage, you're not "retired." You're just in the position where you get to decide what, where, and how you want to spend your time.

Trying to play devil's advocate, I cannot see any virtue in the use of the term "retired early." Even if you think to yourself that "retired early" means that you can just tell your boss to "shove it," what purpose does this power ultimately serve? You're FI. Okay, so if you don't like your current job, go get a new one. Go start your own business. Go devote your time to taking care of your investments (i.e., your family, rental properties, a blog, whatever). But why call this "retired early?" For me, this is a term for the permanently disabled and handicapped. It has no positive connotations. So why do we use it? Because the financial services industry paints such a glamorous picture of retirement? That seems silly.

I vote for praising FI (and any other personal accomplishment for that matter). I vote for leaving the whole "Retired Early" business for the long-term disabled, the terminally ill, and those souls condemned to disposition by the criminal justice system.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:00:55 PM by David Lurie »

Will

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Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 08:13:59 PM »
Okay. I vote for the opposite of whatever you're voting for. Retirement has never had anything but positive connotations for me. Good luck with your quest.

lizzigee

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 08:17:42 PM »
Definition of retired : Having left one's job and ceased to work.

To me RE means choosing to cease work earlier than the norm because you are financially able to.  If you then choose to fill your days with self employment or voluntary work, or even rejoining the workforce because you wish to, not because you financially have to, then this doesn't alter the fact that you still retired early.  I'm too old to achieve ERE but well on track to RE, especially compared to the norm around where I work!  To me RE has only positive connotations, so each to their own I guess.

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 08:46:14 PM »
Will: Your link is non-responsive. I'm not criticizing anyone personally. I have a problem with the term "retired early." I'm not trying to say someone who claims to be retired isn't or anything like that.
Miss. Mud: I see it differently.
Lizzigee: I can't really tell where we disagree, other than you seem to like the term "retired early."
Just to be clear--I'm not trying to criticize MMM or anyone really. Certainly, I'm not against any of the values or positions taken on this website. I do not like the term "retired early." I honestly think it is a ridiculous phrase. Stupid, even. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the term "FIRE" is stupid. Part of making life better is simplifying it down to what matters. All that really matters is the FI part. That's my only point.
Here's something to think about. I've known a lot of people that have made a left turn when it comes to their job or career. In a lot of cases, these people end up being happier. Now, they're not FI, but they are happier. To me, that seems significant. On one hand, happiness and meaningfulness are worth a hell of a lot more than money in the bank. If I had a job where I felt like I was making a difference and was happy doing it, then why would I retire? I wouldn't. A job can make your life worth living. It can give you purpose. Am I seriously the only one who hasn't ever had this thought? Retirement shouldn't be the goal, fulfillment and freedom should be. So, once again, why the FIRE? Why not the FI? Why not an H (for happiness) or an F (for freedom)? I still say SIMPLIFY!

Freedom2016

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 09:00:35 PM »
The link worked for me and it takes you to an article where MMM addresses this very thing. If it doesn't work for you, go to the main MMM blog page and search for "retirement police." Then, read.

In general, my feeling is: Keep calm and carry on. Use the term or don't, and shrug off those who disagree.

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 09:04:49 PM »
Course11: Cool. I'm glad you're at peace. My problem is, the link is not responsive. In other words, I am not the "retirement police." My concern is entirely different.

lizzigee

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 09:12:33 PM »
David, I guess the part where we disagree is where you think retiring is retiring from life and that the term should only be used by, what was it, the disabled, criminals and terminally ill?  I'll be RE in  a couple of years, not super early, will be aged 51, but I'm none of the above.  I may choose to find paid or unpaid work to fill in some time (although at the moment it doesn't appeal). However I will still consider myself retired from having to be a wage slave. I won't comment on this post any further, you either get it our you don't and I don't think you do.

plantingourpennies

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 09:13:27 PM »
Another thread bitching about the semantics of "Early Retirement"?



Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.

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Mr. PoP


Nords

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 09:21:59 PM »
Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.
Perhaps he's trying to say that the post linked from the thread does not provide an appropriate response to the subject, but is rather perceived to be an ad hoc ad-hominem assault.

Trying to play devil's advocate, I cannot see any virtue in the use of the term "retired early."
Well, the terms "FICalc" and "cFISim" just looked a lot worse than FIRECalc and cFIRESim. 

There have been thousands of satisFIREd customers since the 1990s.  I wish you luck with whatever acronym police force you're seeking. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:24:07 PM by Nords »

Eric

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 09:33:03 PM »
"Retirement" means leaving things behind. It means "retiring" from life, not just a job or a career track.

Actually, that sounds pretty good to me.  I've very much looking forward to leaving behind my currently life and track and beginning a different one.

For people that are chained to a job to pay their expenses, well, there's a way out of that, a way to gain more leverage, principally by cutting expenses and saving more. But, when you get to that stage, you're not "retired." You're just in the position where you get to decide what, where, and how you want to spend your time.

Kind of like a retired person?

I cannot see any virtue in the use of the term "retired early." Even if you think to yourself that "retired early" means that you can just tell your boss to "shove it," what purpose does this power ultimately serve?

Ummm, I think you answered your own question here.  :)

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2014, 09:44:09 PM »
Another thread bitching about the semantics of "Early Retirement"?



Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.

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Mr. PoP

Pappy:

Your post is very offensive. Dismissing something as mere "Semantics" and suggesting I'm merely striking a stricken mare for raising the issue is ridiculous. Do you realize that your mixing idioms? Surprise, surprise! Words matter. Retirement, colloquially, may mean leaving a career track when you are too old to work any more. "Retired early" means you have ALS, Parkinson's, you got turned into a vegetable in an accident, or you just got sentenced to life in prison before you were ready. What's the point in praising the virtues of "early retirement" over "fulfilled living"? There are none. This is a stupid term and we should just accept that "retired early" is what the lemmings lining up to buy Powerball tickets are praying for.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:46:54 PM by David Lurie »

Spartana

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2014, 09:48:29 PM »
  "Retirement" means leaving things behind.
Lets see... I left a job behind, a horrid commute behind, a time clock behind, a schedule behind, a time-suck of my life behind, a boss-of-me behind, work politics behind, and oh so many other things behind... Guess that makes me "retired"! But since you don't like the words "retired early", I guess we can just call it "play time", or "a more meaningful life time" or, my favorite, "living my life to the fullest while I'm young still on my own schedule and in my own way without some body or some job telling me what to do with my time time"

Semantics. If you don't like the word or don't feel it applies to you, then don't use it. It suit me fine and I bet  it does many other people here who retired....early.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:50:05 PM by Spartana »

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2014, 09:49:54 PM »
Eric: we seem to agree, so I can't figure out what you're getting at.

Spartana

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2014, 09:52:47 PM »
Another thread bitching about the semantics of "Early Retirement"?



Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.

Best,
Mr. PoP

Pappy:

Your post is very offensive. Dismissing something as mere "Semantics" and suggesting I'm merely striking a stricken mare for raising the issue is ridiculous. Do you realize that your mixing idioms? Surprise, surprise! Words matter. Retirement, colloquially, may mean leaving a career track when you are too old to work any more. "Retired early" means you have ALS, Parkinson's, you got turned into a vegetable in an accident, or you just got sentenced to life in prison before you were ready. What's the point in praising the virtues of "early retirement" over "fulfilled living"? There are none. This is a stupid term and we should just accept that "retired early" is what the lemmings lining up to buy Powerball tickets are praying for.
YOU'RE interpretation, not mine. I retired early (i.e. left the working world permanently forever) so I could be a beach bum.  BTW, the terms early retired and fulfilled life have 2 different meanings. One assumes you are no longer employed at a paying job by choice, the other assumes you are doing things that fulfill your life whether working or not.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:56:38 PM by Spartana »

slugline

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 09:57:15 PM »
The idea that "retired" is synonymous with "disabled" would surprise at least a few disabled people....

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 09:57:56 PM »
  "Retirement" means leaving things behind.
Lets see... I left a job behind, a horrid commute behind, a time clock behind, a schedule behind, a time-suck of my life behind, a boss-of-me behind, work politics behind, and oh so many other things behind... Guess that makes me "retired"! But since you don't like the words "retired early", I guess we can just call it "play time", or "a more meaningful life time" or, my favorite, "living my life to the fullest while I'm young still on my own schedule and in my own way without some body or some job telling me what to do with my time time"

Semantics. If you don't like the word or don't feel it applies to you, then don't use it. It suit me fine and I bet  it does many other people here who retired....early.
I agree with the majority of what you're saying. But 'semantics' matter. They are the meaning behind words. The cornerstone of language. Complaining about signifiers is the equivalent of saying "language is too difficult, I give up, let's just grunt at one another incomprehensibly." Just face it: "retired early" is a stupid phrase. Quitting a terrible job, dropping a long commute, etc.--these can all be expressed more precisely without saying "I'm FIRE'd!", which anyone who reads these forums knows, can mean any number of things (i.e., it's a meaningless phrase).

Spartana

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 10:00:18 PM »
From the Great and Powerful Wikipedia:

Early retirement[edit]

Early retirement can be at any age, but is generally before the age (or tenure) needed for eligibility for support and funds from government or employer-provided sources. Thus, early-retirees rely on their own savings and investments to be initially self-supporting, until they start receiving such external support. Early retirement is also a euphemistic term for accepting termination of employment before retirement age as part of the employer's labor force rationalization. In this case, a monetary inducement may be involved

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 10:02:44 PM »
Spartana: why do you think "retirement" is defined by
choice? Millions of retired Americans have no meaningful
choice, in retirement or anything else.

bacchi

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 10:02:49 PM »
"Retired early" means you have ALS, Parkinson's, you got turned into a vegetable in an accident, or you just got sentenced to life in prison before you were ready.

Sez who?

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 10:05:01 PM »
"Retired early" means you have ALS, Parkinson's, you got turned into a vegetable in an accident, or you just got sentenced to life in prison before you were ready.

Sez who?

Well, I just said it. So, you can engage me in dialogue or just scurry along. This is not an argument.

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 10:07:30 PM »
From the Great and Powerful Wikipedia:

Early retirement[edit]

Early retirement can be at any age, but is generally before the age (or tenure) needed for eligibility for support and funds from government or employer-provided sources. Thus, early-retirees rely on their own savings and investments to be initially self-supporting, until they start receiving such external support. Early retirement is also a euphemistic term for accepting termination of employment before retirement age as part of the employer's labor force rationalization. In this case, a monetary inducement may be involved

So are you just conceding that it's a stupid term to use or what? Why celebrate what's typically seen as an euphemism?

bacchi

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 10:08:43 PM »
Well, I just said it. So, you can engage me in dialogue or just scurry along. This is not an argument.

Your request to change the definition of "Retire Early" has been submitted and your case number is BAS-48543. Your request will be on the agenda of the next Grand Committee of Mustachians and will be discussed thoroughly. Thank you for your time.

Regards,
A Lot Of Other People

Spartana

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2014, 10:10:15 PM »
  "Retirement" means leaving things behind.
Lets see... I left a job behind, a horrid commute behind, a time clock behind, a schedule behind, a time-suck of my life behind, a boss-of-me behind, work politics behind, and oh so many other things behind... Guess that makes me "retired"! But since you don't like the words "retired early", I guess we can just call it "play time", or "a more meaningful life time" or, my favorite, "living my life to the fullest while I'm young still on my own schedule and in my own way without some body or some job telling me what to do with my time time"

Semantics. If you don't like the word or don't feel it applies to you, then don't use it. It suit me fine and I bet  it does many other people here who retired....early.
I agree with the majority of what you're saying. But 'semantics' matter. They are the meaning behind words. The cornerstone of language. Complaining about signifiers is the equivalent of saying "language is too difficult, I give up, let's just grunt at one another incomprehensibly." Just face it: "retired early" is a stupid phrase. Quitting a terrible job, dropping a long commute, etc.--these can all be expressed more precisely without saying "I'm FIRE'd!", which anyone who reads these forums knows, can mean any number of things (i.e., it's a meaningless phrase).
I disagree. Early retirement is not a stupid phrase. It is an accurate and descriptive use of words that are appropriate for one's employment status. It's not fired, not laid off, not unemployed, not on sabbatical, not a SAHP, not a seasonal worker, not a part time worker, and not a temporary worker, not a full time worker, just a person who left the workforce or a particular job and doesn't plan to go back. Nothing less and nothing more. FWIW, I did not leave a terrible job, I left a job I dearly loved and was proud to do. I found it exciting and rewarding. But like most jobs it takes up too much time and left me none for other equally wonderful and exciting things in my life. So I left. Just because you choose to retire doesn't mean you dislike you job, just mean you want to experience other things in life.

dragoncar

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 10:26:05 PM »
This guy.  AMIRITE?

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2014, 10:27:04 PM »
Your definition of "retirement" as "retirement from life" is not everyone's definition, and it isn't the one I commonly encounter. You don't have to use the term if you don't like it. That doesn't mean everyone else is stupid for using it, or unable to understand semantics.

Well, I just said it. So, you can engage me in dialogue or just scurry along. This is not an argument.

Your request to change the definition of "Retire Early" has been submitted and your case number is BAS-48543. Your request will be on the agenda of the next Grand Committee of Mustachians and will be discussed thoroughly. Thank you for your time.

Regards,
A Lot Of Other People


+2

Eric

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2014, 11:00:51 PM »
I have an easy solution for you David.  Keep working.  Then you won't have to worry about how to classify your non-work at a point where your whole peer group is still working involuntarily.  This way, you avoid the whole problem.  Plus, as a bonus, no one will accidentally think that you're disabled with a rare debilitating disease.  Win win!

Daisy

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 02:17:25 AM »
I thought this was going to be a thread about how FIRE should really be FIER (early retired sounds better than retired early to me..it did bug me for a while that the order was wrong). But the acronym FIER is not as catchy.;-)

Perhaps you would like the term "Gainfully Unemployed" better? But then the acronym would be FIGU and, I kid you not, that acronym is already taken. (never heard of it before but it's amazing what an internet search will yield)

http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/FIGU#About_FIGU

Scary stuff, I tell you. I'll stick with FIRE for myself.

matchewed

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 03:18:39 AM »
Blech, damn trolls.

Like Eric said keep working. Why is this even an important discussion to be had? Seems like the problem is with how you see it and everyone else seems to see it just fine. Deal with it. If it makes you cringe every time someone says something the problem isn't with them.

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2014, 05:14:58 AM »
+1.. ^   I cant even begin to understand how the term can bug you OP but if it does than as others suggested substitute it or think of it as you wish. No harm in that i guess.

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2014, 05:45:44 AM »
Well, I just said it. So, you can engage me in dialogue or just scurry along. This is not an argument.

Your request to change the definition of "Retire Early" has been submitted and your case number is BAS-48543. Your request will be on the agenda of the next Grand Committee of Mustachians and will be discussed thoroughly. Thank you for your time.

Regards,
A Lot Of Other People

Webster's works too, there are connotations of the word retire that mean relaxing or withdrawing from the normal hubbub (NO meaning of retire directly implies disease or disability). Importantly, one of the meanings of retire is: "to win permanent possession of (as a trophy)"---so, when I retire early I win forever the trophy of freedom to do whatever I want. Perhaps I will study Japanese, or sell jam, or type responses to strangers, but it is what I call "retiring my external obligations" and embracing my choices.

ETA: Feel free to imagine me in retirement pulling myself along on a wheeled platform ala Eddie Murphy in the beginning of "Trading Places." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKtjBqJ4NxA 
Now let me get back to my kanji textbook...

ETA 2:
Quote
Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?

Yes
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 06:23:27 AM by Basenji »

Random

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2014, 09:13:38 AM »
I will come in with a teensy bit of support for David's original point, which is that the connotations of the term retire don't work well for him.  For some (perhaps many), the word 'retired' connotes a certain passivity in life.  I think of the phrase 'shy and retiring'.  Think shuffleboard and reclining loungers.   For most on this forum, RE is an opportunity to make a transition TO something that is not a conventional job that is a more active embrace of things they love. 

Having said that (and with full apology to shuffleboard grand masters), RE I'd close enough for me and easier than a paragraph of explanation of precisely what I mean that I will not be getting my undies in a bunch over use of the term.

plantingourpennies

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2014, 09:28:10 AM »
This guy.  AMIRITE?

Haha, I got troll-rolled.

OP-can you tell us more about your theories around semantics, linguistics, FIRE and disability? I'll award you extra internet points if you namecheck Wittgenstein and Jacob Fisker in the same paragraph.

Best,
Mr. PoP

justajane

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2014, 09:35:37 AM »
I partially agree with David as well and am somewhat taken aback by the personal and rather rude responses he received to his semantic discussion. It almost seems as if people thought he was attacking their choices and lifestyle rather than a term.

For someone who is known to coin terms and ideas, MMM is awfully sensitive about any criticisms people have to his non-traditional definition of retirement. Yes, language is fluid and you can change it, but you also have to account for longstanding connotations. And that is what David is discussing. Traditionally people retire when they are too old to work or for some reason unable to continue on in their preferred career path. This is the reality that David is pointing out.

It's kind of like how ridiculous I find the "World Domination Summit," mainly because it comes across as juvenile. Pointing that out doesn't make me a hate the concept of the conference, just the terminology.

Terminology matters, and in many respects, I think MMM's flair with words and the ongoing criticisms he gets for his use of the term retirement, makes for a perfect opportunity for him to coin a new phrase instead of resorting to older ones.

trailrated

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2014, 09:48:28 AM »
Another thread bitching about the semantics of "Early Retirement"?



Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.

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Mr. PoP

This is the greatest thing I have ever seen. Could not stop laughing. Thank you

DecD

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2014, 11:02:25 AM »
Hmm.  Well, my dad just retired at age 67.  He worked for the same company for 37 years.  He was thrown a retirement party by his company upon retiring.  He has way way way more than enough money to see himself and my mom out, as they have always been frugal.  I can't imagine anyone arguing that "retiring" is in fact what he did.

He is in great health.  He is not lazing around. My parents are rarely at home - at the moment they are in Maine hiking with old college friends (who are also retired).  They've also been in Alaska, gulf shores, and visiting their kids this summer. 

I mean, we can agree that he's retired in the traditional meaning of the word, right?  So if I were to do the exact same thing in 5 years: quit my job, having reached true FI with plenty of assets to see me and my family out, and spending my time traveling, spending time with my kids, pursuing my hobbies....exactly what he is doing.....wouldn't you say that I have Retired Early?

I don't think that your definition of retired as disabled and/or giving up on life is a universally accepted (or even common) definition of the word.

DecD

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2014, 11:12:06 AM »
I partially agree with David as well and am somewhat taken aback by the personal and rather rude responses he received to his semantic discussion. It almost seems as if people thought he was attacking their choices and lifestyle rather than a term.

For someone who is known to coin terms and ideas, MMM is awfully sensitive about any criticisms people have to his non-traditional definition of retirement. Yes, language is fluid and you can change it, but you also have to account for longstanding connotations. And that is what David is discussing. Traditionally people retire when they are too old to work or for some reason unable to continue on in their preferred career path. This is the reality that David is pointing out.

It's kind of like how ridiculous I find the "World Domination Summit," mainly because it comes across as juvenile. Pointing that out doesn't make me a hate the concept of the conference, just the terminology.

Terminology matters, and in many respects, I think MMM's flair with words and the ongoing criticisms he gets for his use of the term retirement, makes for a perfect opportunity for him to coin a new phrase instead of resorting to older ones.

Actually, I completely disagree with the bolded.  My dad at 67 is in great health, was extremely valued by his company, and was completely capable of continuing to work if he wanted/needed to.  In fact, he tried to retire 2 years ago at age 65 and they begged him to stay on for 2 more years to train his successor.  That doesn't make him any less retired than if he were in poor health.  Would you really say that he has not "retired" because he's strong and healthy as a horse, even though he's drawing social security, takes health insurance through Medicare, spent 45-odd years in the workforce,  owns a paid off house, and has crap- tons of money in investments after living an essentially mustachian lifestyle for those 45 years?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2014, 02:52:47 PM »
The English language is a living, changing language. It is not frozen.  One word can have more than one meaning depending on context.  Therefore you are all somewhat right, and no-one has been completely right.  However, there has been a lot of silliness here.

According to the Canadian Government I retired early, because I am not eligible for full CPP until 65.  However, according to my employer I did not retire early, because I was entitled to my full pension.  So, what did I do?  Which term is correct for me?

I prefer to now think of my self as a woman of independent means, living on passive/investment income instead of employment income.  I have definitely not retired from the world, and when I look around me, most volunteers are "retired" in that they no longer have paid employment.  But they certainly have not "retired from the world". 

So "quit yer bitchin'", especially OP, and realize that there is a lot of diversity in the world.  Just because you think an elephant is like a snake does not mean it is so.  I didn't retire to come and comment on trivial squabbles on-line.


I trust that was curmudgeonly enough?   ;-)




ShortInSeattle

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2014, 03:36:47 PM »

I trust that was curmudgeonly enough?   ;-)

That was quite delightful. Thank you.

clifp

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2014, 04:52:19 PM »
Will: Your link is non-responsive. I'm not criticizing anyone personally. I have a problem with the term "retired early." I'm not trying to say someone who claims to be retired isn't or anything like that.
Miss. Mud: I see it differently.
Lizzigee: I can't really tell where we disagree, other than you seem to like the term "retired early."
Just to be clear--I'm not trying to criticize MMM or anyone really. Certainly, I'm not against any of the values or positions taken on this website. I do not like the term "retired early." I honestly think it is a ridiculous phrase. Stupid, even. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the term "FIRE" is stupid. Part of making life better is simplifying it down to what matters. All that really matters is the FI part. That's my only point.
Here's something to think about. I've known a lot of people that have made a left turn when it comes to their job or career. In a lot of cases, these people end up being happier. Now, they're not FI, but they are happier. To me, that seems significant. On one hand, happiness and meaningfulness are worth a hell of a lot more than money in the bank. If I had a job where I felt like I was making a difference and was happy doing it, then why would I retire? I wouldn't. A job can make your life worth living. It can give you purpose. Am I seriously the only one who hasn't ever had this thought? Retirement shouldn't be the goal, fulfillment and freedom should be. So, once again, why the FIRE? Why not the FI? Why not an H (for happiness) or an F (for freedom)? I still say SIMPLIFY!

As a proud early retire, can I just say that I found your attack on this wonderful aspirational goal, deeply offensive and both ageist and workist.

In all seriousness, I've been reading early retirement boards for almost 15 years, and in that entire time you are actually the first person who has criticized the term.  While I can't authoritatively speak on the views of the 7 billion  other folks on the planet, I can say you are in a tiny minority. I guess nobody can accuse you of being sheep like.   

It is Financial Independence/Retire Early, financial independence is a necessary precondition for retiring early, without a significant sacrifice in lifestyle.  But there is no law that says you have to retire just because you can, but most people don't have a job or an attitude like Warren Buffett that makes him tap dance to work.

A factoid to consider. Percentage of multimillion dollar lotto winner who say they intend continue working 75%. Percentage of multimillion lottery winner who have quit work 1 year later 75%.

In short don't knock it until you've tried it. 

Oh and Hocus welcome to the MMM forums.

David Lurie

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2014, 08:28:40 PM »
I just want to point out that only about 1 in 5 of the responses in this thread were respectful. Some posts were nothing but mean-spirited attempts to attack me. Something to think about.

Also, for the point of clarity, I don't care if anyone else joins me. I will "retire"--barring accident or illness or something else--at retirement age. I'm also going to pursue financial independence. I may leave my current job or career, but I will never, ever "retire early."

TheFrugalFox

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2014, 11:45:55 PM »
Although I am also not a fan of the word retire (to me it conjures up overly tanned, 70 year olds living in Florida - Del Boca Vista style!) - I have never associated the word with disability or handicapped - they are very different things in my opinion. Anyway, I am retiring in a weeks time, and own a shop with a big closing down sale out side so inevitably I get asked what am I going to do at least 5 times a day and really there is only one word for it, retiring. But I always quickly add that it's on a budget and will need to make a hobby or two work if I am ever going to have an overseas holiday again. Reactions have been priceless - generally they stare at you for a few seconds as their brain tries to compute retiring, my age (40) and I guess a supposedly failed shop.

Maybe better terms (for me) would be "full time hobbyist" or "retiring from full time work" - I am sure it's different for everyone as is what people are going to do once retired.

MikeBear

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2014, 02:13:57 AM »
Another thread bitching about the semantics of "Early Retirement"?



Link is fine. Stick an "http://" in front of it if your browser is ancient. Or don't.

Best,
Mr. PoP

Pappy:

Your post is very offensive. Dismissing something as mere "Semantics" and suggesting I'm merely striking a stricken mare for raising the issue is ridiculous. Do you realize that your mixing idioms? Surprise, surprise! Words matter. Retirement, colloquially, may mean leaving a career track when you are too old to work any more. "Retired early" means you have ALS, Parkinson's, you got turned into a vegetable in an accident, or you just got sentenced to life in prison before you were ready. What's the point in praising the virtues of "early retirement" over "fulfilled living"? There are none. This is a stupid term and we should just accept that "retired early" is what the lemmings lining up to buy Powerball tickets are praying for.

Your comment above that I bolded shows RESPECT? I sure don't think so!

Why does anybody even continue to respond to this obvious TROLL?

You will never convince him of anything, because that's not his true purpose in being here in this thread:

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

RESPECT sir, is always EARNED not GIVEN freely! If you want respect, YOU first give respect to others, and you certainly aren't doing that in this particular thread.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 02:31:24 AM by MikeBear »

Basenji

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2014, 08:52:52 AM »
I just want to point out that only about 1 in 5 of the responses in this thread were respectful.

I count 23ish responders, 17 of whom tried to tell you the same thing, "if you don't like the term, fine, don't use it, but most of us don't agree with your definition of retire early. Most people on this forum think of it as early retirement from external constraint to freedom." That freedom encompasses everything from sitting around playing with yourself to working at a traditional J-O-B if that is what makes you happy. Good day to you and best wishes on your non-retirement.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 09:07:42 AM by Basenji »

Russ

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Re: Am I the only one that can't stand the "RE" part of FIRE?
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2014, 10:08:03 AM »
Locking this before it gets any more contentious. OP, thank you for sharing your perspective but I don't think you're going to change many minds here.