Author Topic: Am I my future shafted self?  (Read 10722 times)

APowers

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Am I my future shafted self?
« on: November 25, 2014, 10:39:11 AM »
I did college early (actually started at 15y/o), minored in Criminal Justice and majored in Business Management (graduated with bachelor's). I have not been able to find anything more than entry-level jobs in the last 5 years. Got hired at a local grocery store fresh out of college, and am currently working grocery store and pizza delivery.

Then I come here and read about everyone who makes $120k starting as an engineer/office flunky/etc., and feel like I've somehow done something wrong. Where are these jobs and how do you people get them?

odput

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 10:48:30 AM »
To answer the question in the thread title - No, what you have told us isn't what makes you shafted.  If you are driving 25 miles to the grocery store in a lifted Dodge Ram, then maybe you are.  But don't confuse starting jobs and low wages with shafting yourself...you do that by signing up for car loans, credit card debt, payday loans and the like.

Sounds like you are still young...don't be discouraged by low income...being rich is really about spending level, not income level.

Also, with the high incomes, what you are observing with the high salary is a bunch of people who chose to go into high paying careers, and the results of working in them for 10-15 years.  I don't think anyone on this board started at $120k/yr, they are there now because of raises, promotions and the like after many years of working in their field.

Bikesy

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 11:03:40 AM »
Since I'm at lunch right now I'll share my story:

Graduated from a state school with a 4 year degree in "business".  Took a job as an hourly, low level manager of a major retailer; I was 23 at the time.  After 6 months of hard work I was promoted to assistant manager and put on salary starting at 47k per year.  Continued to work hard and over 3 years received two merit based raises on top of small COLA raises; at my peak I was making 67k per year.  I decided I wanted a change of scenery and interviewed for an operations management position with another large company (two of my years in retail management were in operations).  I was offered a position right around 100k per year.

So I'm not the 120k per year guy you speak of; however, I'm pretty happy with my progress so far.  The biggest advice I would give you is to work on your people skills.  Learn how to interact effectively with people.  This will be the most important skill you will have as a traditional "business" manager.  Also, practice your interview skills a lot.  I was a hiring manager for the retailer and had to do tons of interview prep...nothing prepared me better for my own interviews than this.

Keep plugging away and if you don't like where you are, feel like you have no upward mobility, find something else.  That's what I did!

Best of luck.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2014, 11:19:48 AM »
From what I can tell the jobs are in San Fran and New York.

How to get them?  First read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Visual-C-2012-Programming/dp/1118314417/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1416939166&sr=8-4&keywords=Visual+C%23

Code: [Select]
Console.WriteLine("Hello World");

Then put up stuff on https://github.com/

It will open up a new path to a 40k job.  Build on that and move up.   I'm up to 60k now.  If you're a better coder and more risk taking than me then in 5 years you could have 120k. 

Or you could be an Officer in the Army, use your tuition benefits to work on your CS degree while or after service, and then rock the world as a defense contractor.

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 12:17:18 PM »
Yeah, don't be discouraged. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that there are higher paying fields, and lower paying ones. The larger paychecks in higher paying careers are nice, but they often come with significant downsides too. If you're unsatisfied with your career or earnings (or inability to find a job in your chosen career), you could always look at making a switch.

I remember colleagues at school being jealous/envious of my substantially higher starting salary, but my response was, "And where were you when I was sweating out all the hard math, physics, and chemistry classes for 4 years? Oh yeah, partying all semester, then studying a total of 3 hours one day before the Psychology or Sociology final exam!" :-) It wasn't fun putting in that work, but I felt I earned the higher paycheck later. And that investment has lifetime benefits, with ever-increasing salaries.

It wasn't clear to me if your grocery store work is in management, or on the front lines (cashier, bagging, stocking, etc.). If you don't have the white collar career you envisioned, definitely keep pounding the pavement, look at opportunities in other areas of the country, or consider getting qualifications in another field. But it's not all about the big paycheck; there's something to be said for enjoying your life outside of that. You can get a decent salary in generic business/management, and by saving/investing you can be quite wealthy in a relatively short time.

Our local celebrity Arebelspy is a teacher and he's worth, like, Billions in real estate and other investments.

marty998

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 01:52:42 PM »
I did college early (actually started at 15y/o), minored in Criminal Justice and majored in Business Management (graduated with bachelor's). I have not been able to find anything more than entry-level jobs in the last 5 years. Got hired at a local grocery store fresh out of college, and am currently working grocery store and pizza delivery.

Then I come here and read about everyone who makes $120k starting as an engineer/office flunky/etc., and feel like I've somehow done something wrong. Where are these jobs and how do you people get them?

I started on 22k in a very entry level accounting job with a tax prep firm. 10 years and several job changes later I'm not quite on 120k, but would not be earning nearly as much if I didn't take that crap level role early on.

What were these entry level jobs you speak of? Why did you not continue with them?

GoCubsGo

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 03:08:53 PM »
5 years of looking for a job and all you can find is pizza delivery and grocery store worker?  I think there's more to this story.  What type of jobs have you turned down? Are they jobs related to your degree (business)?  Have you gotten feedback from jobs that you didn't get.  5 years is way too long in my opinion and there may be a reason for it.  Elaborate and maybe we can offer some guidance.

frugalnacho

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 06:11:31 PM »
Also how are you gifted enough to start college at age 15 but not able to get a job? Seems like companies would be chomping at the bit to hire you.

APowers

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 12:01:38 AM »
5 years of looking for a job and all you can find is pizza delivery and grocery store worker?  I think there's more to this story.  What type of jobs have you turned down? Are they jobs related to your degree (business)?  Have you gotten feedback from jobs that you didn't get.  5 years is way too long in my opinion and there may be a reason for it.  Elaborate and maybe we can offer some guidance.

I haven't been job-hopping for 5 years. I've been at the grocery store (a clerk in the deli at QFC-- a Kroger subsidiary) for all 5 years, and have done a couple random side gigs (Census in 2010, that sort of thing) here and there on top of QFC. I started delivering pizzas a year ago last month, and am currently at QFC 3 days/week (enough to keep us in health insurance) and at Domino's 4 days/week.

I can think of one (and only one) job that I've actually turned down. The deli manager (my supervisor; my passive-aggressive, lying, manipulative, horrible supervisor) wanted to step down from being deli manager, and the store manager offered me the job. But it would have meant that then I'd be my supervisor's boss...which was not any kind of work-relationship stress I wanted in my life. So I said no. In hindsight, maybe I should have taken the job, done it right, and maybe she'd have quit. But I don't know.

It's not that I've applied for jobs, been offered them, and turned them down. I'll apply for them and then won't hear anything back. Or I'll get an interview (rarely), and then not hear anything back. At this point, I've basically given up looking for other jobs for the last year after 4 years of applying for pretty much anything and everything that would pay decently w/benefits....and getting nothing.

Also how are you gifted enough to start college at age 15 but not able to get a job? Seems like companies would be chomping at the bit to hire you.

I don't know. I honestly don't know. That's why I'm posting here, I guess. I sometimes feel like I should have majored in a STEM field. I think it does make it a little more difficult to find a good job (or a good/bad foot-in-the-door job), when I have a wife and 2 kids and can't exactly just up and move to a totally different part of the country.

We're also tied down (geographically) at this point by the fact that we bought a house (fixer-upper, about 85% fixed). We're hoping to have it paid off by jan/feb '15, and totally remodeled by next summer, at which point we won't be stuck paying a mortgage and moving will be a lot more affordable/easy.

The reason I took up delivering pizza in the first place was because I wanted to somehow get into property management*. So I rearranged my QFC schedule so that I'd have a consistent two weekdays off during the day and went to all the local property management offices and volunteered to be an intern-- because I wanted to learn the business. They all said no. I signed up for a correspondence real estate agent certification course, but it was honestly super boring and I got busy fixing up our house that it fell by the wayside, and it wasn't like anyone wanted to hire me even for free.

I like my new schedule now, though; and I make more money working two jobs than I did only working at QFC. But working 7 days a week in jobs that really don't take the logistic/administrative/business skills I have and would like to use isn't the answer I want.

*Re: property management...I'm still getting into it, but at this point, it's by dint of force-- slowly saving and fixing and owning and renting my own properties-- and not by being able to have a "job" in the industry. My basic FI plan involves owning about 3-4 rentals (actually could probably ER on 2 rentals + paid off home). I do want some way to get some experience in the field prior to just jumping in with my own property, but I don't know how that's going to happen at this rate.

Bateaux

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 12:12:19 AM »
Find the right company.   I started out with my company at $1,850 a month.  Last year I made 125k.  We have people quit every day because they are making even more at other companies.
Knock on some doors.

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2014, 12:42:53 AM »
Sounds like you need to finish the real estate course. Maybe try being a realtor?
quitting never gained anyone anything. 
Finish. Do it.

If you don't like selling homes to other people, at least you save the comission on the way in to a new renal property. Then like you said, you can maybe ER on 2-3 rentals. Why stop at 3? Get 30. Make it your full time job. When you get tired of all the fixing, hire someone to manage it, collect the rents, and go fishing.

mxt0133

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 01:13:54 AM »
I'd say congratulation on being married and being able to support two kids working as a pizza delivery and at a grocery store.  On top of that you have a house that is almost paid off.  That takes some skill and guts. 

As for jobs that pay 120k plus it takes a lot of hard work(lots of schooling or experience), luck (picking the right major and being at the right place at the right time), high tolerance for BS, and more pointless meetings than any sane person should tolerate in one life time.

I would focus my energy in what is currently working for you.  If you have been applying to jobs for the past five years and have gotten no replies then stop applying to those jobs.  For one reason or another those traditional channels of employment are not working for you, not the right degree, experience, ect.  I would try other ways to get a job, networking or friends and family that might be able to help.  Put the word out  what your skills are, handyman for example, and see if anyone can use your skill set.  This is the case where who you know will serve you better than what you know.

You say you have logistic/administrative/business skills, can you elaborate on those?  Can you pitch those skills in two minutes, called an elevator pitch?

You were asked to be a deli manager so that shows that you have some potential, unfortunately you did not capitalize on that.  It could be a personality issue.  There are people out there that literally won't take no for an answer, if they see something they want they.  They. Go. Get. It. 

It's time for you to get yours!  Good luck.

Ynari

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2014, 02:09:50 AM »
Get your resume tweaked (your alma mater might have resources for this, or you can look online). Learn how to write a kick-ass cover letter. Read books or guides on how to interview well, then practice. Apply to every job that seems better than what you currently have. Get a job, then work your way up (or leverage it for a better job later).

Seriously, once you're sure your application is good, apply everywhere. Banks, consulting firms, temp agencies, government jobs, community college, whatever you can find.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2014, 10:18:26 AM »
If you have a bachelors in business, I would fully focus on getting a foot in ANY door in a corporation.  The best route for that is being a temp.  I worked for multiple Fortune 500 companies and we would always keep our eyes out for an exceptional temp to potentially hire internally (and I hire at least 3 over the years).  Alternately, if you have a bachelors degree you can often get entry level sales jobs (they generally suck but it's the best way to get a foot in the door).

Right now if I read your resume I would honestly think something is wrong if you've been unemployed in your desired field for 5 years (and probably not bring you in for an interview).  You need to re-work and re-boot your resume and be ready for tough questions when you do get interviews.  Focusing on property mgmt and part time real estate won't get you to where you want to be and is a waste of time.  Do that AFTER 10 years of banking $ in a higher paying job.  Maybe consider hiring a career coach as there is something missing in this equation and someone sitting in front of you might be able to figure it out.  Every day you stay in retail you are becoming less desirable to a hiring person in a more traditional corporate career using the skills you earned in college.  Call every temp agency you can this week and see what they have to say.

APowers

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 11:22:43 AM »
I wouldn't exactly call the grocery store a "dead end job"-- ultimately, yes, it's been a dead end for me, but along the way, I've had great health insurance and I've been at journeyman pay rate for a couple years now ($15/hr) so the pay's not super-horrible. Just mediocre. I can win on mediocre if I have to. I just don't want to have to, and I'm sure there's got to be some way to get to a better place income-wise.

Sounds like you need to finish the real estate course. Maybe try being a realtor?
quitting never gained anyone anything. 
Finish. Do it.

If you don't like selling homes to other people, at least you save the comission on the way in to a new renal property. Then like you said, you can maybe ER on 2-3 rentals. Why stop at 3? Get 30. Make it your full time job. When you get tired of all the fixing, hire someone to manage it, collect the rents, and go fishing.

Definitely not going to stop at 3, but 2-3 will allow me to not be stuck spending all my days at day jobs just to make sure the bills are paid. I may finish the real estate course, but I'm first going to try to stay focused on finishing the remodeling.

I'd say congratulation on being married and being able to support two kids working as a pizza delivery and at a grocery store.  On top of that you have a house that is almost paid off.  That takes some skill and guts.

...

You say you have logistic/administrative/business skills, can you elaborate on those?  Can you pitch those skills in two minutes, called an elevator pitch?

Can I pitch those skills in two minutes? I don't think I can. Or I could but don't know how, which is much the same. I honestly hate talking about myself-- it feels self-aggrandizing and egocentric to me.

If you have a bachelors in business, I would fully focus on getting a foot in ANY door in a corporation.  The best route for that is being a temp.  I worked for multiple Fortune 500 companies and we would always keep our eyes out for an exceptional temp to potentially hire internally (and I hired at least 3 over the years).  Alternately, if you have a bachelors degree you can often get entry level sales jobs (they generally suck but it's the best way to get a foot in the door).

Right now if I read your resume I would honestly think something is wrong if you've been unemployed in your desired field for 5 years (and probably not bring you in for an interview).  You need to re-work and re-boot your resume and be ready for tough questions when you do get interviews.  Focusing on property mgmt and part time real estate won't get you to where you want to be and is a waste of time.  Do that AFTER 10 years of banking $ in a higher paying job.  Maybe consider hiring a career coach as there is something missing in this equation and someone sitting in front of you might be able to figure it out.  Every day you stay in retail you are becoming less desirable to a hiring person in a more traditional corporate career using the skills you earned in college.  Call every temp agency you can this week and see what they have to say.

I can call temp agencies. There are (were?) a couple in town, so I'll do that and see what turns up. There is a slight problem with this approach, which is that in order to pick up temp jobs, I would (I assume) have to leave the grocery store-- which would mean no health/dental/vision insurance for me or the wife/kids, as well as then having to live off of what little stash/emergency fund (plus whatever I earn at Domino's) for who knows how long. I may wait a few months until the house is paid off and all scheduled dentist/doctor appointments are finished. But meanwhile, I'll at least get my name/info in their systems and see what they say is available.

Another piece of the problem (I think) is that it's not like I have some specific job that I always wanted. I don't. I haven't been "unemployed in my desired field" exactly....because I don't have a "desired field" other than "one that generates high income". I don't especially care what company/business I work for.

"Career coach" is that even a thing? *does Google searches* Hm, okay. Apparently, in my town there are one or two "vocational rehabilitation" services (e.g., the unemployment office), and a bunch of "life coaches" (e.g., "let me empower your inner peace and fortitude"), but not much in the way of career coaching.

mxt0133

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2014, 11:44:11 AM »
Can I pitch those skills in two minutes? I don't think I can. Or I could but don't know how, which is much the same. I honestly hate talking about myself-- it feels self-aggrandizing and egocentric to me.

Which do you hate more talking about yourself of saying no to your wife and kids when they ask for some basic necessities?  I hate to sound melodramatic, but i'm trying to lite the fire under your ass.

Seriously if you're fine/comfortable with your grocery store job then stay, but don't expect to get a 80K, let alone a 100k, job to go chasing after you when you cannot demonstrate to anyone that you have the abilities to perform those jobs.

FIRE2022

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2014, 12:59:39 PM »
I'll share my story. I came to the U.S. 8+ years ago.

2005 - 2008: Spent getting a bachelors degree in a STEM major
2009 - 2010: Worked an entry level job for $42,000, attended grad school full time and taught myself computer programming.
2011 - 2013: Started new job as a software developer. Starting salary: $54,000. Ending salary: $66,000
2014: Started new job as a senior software engineer at $140,000
2014: Quit that job after six months and took a new job at $115,000 in a new city to be close to my fiance.

I paid for most of my college tuition by working summers and odd jobs during school. Going to a state school and living off campus helped keep costs low. I bought used books, older edition books and borrowed textbooks from friends. Working was compounded by the fact that job opportunities are severely limited for international students. In spite of all that, I only had $7000 debt upon graduating from grad school, which has long since been paid off.

I am not particularly gifted or talented. I notice it takes me longer to grasp concepts that some of my friends and coworkers. But what I have going for me is focus. I don't quit. I believe if I can get to a 6 figure income relatively quickly while adjusting to a new country, anyone can do it.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 04:00:15 PM »
Why are you so aggressively trying to pay off the house?  That doesn't make sense. You said you can't look for other opportunities because you'd have to quit the grocery store.  Save up a cushion so that you CAN take a slightly lower paying temp job (temp jobs in my area pay only slightly less than you make now but that could be area specific) and you could look into ACA for insurance.  Paying extra money to the house (and subsequent remodeling repairs) is setting you back from starting the most important part of your overall job equation.

Your future self may already be shafted but your not helping anything by waiting so long.   Get a job in ANY corporation that has room for growth and put in your time.  Talking about yourself is EXACTLY what an interview is so if your not willing to learn how to interview well (many books on the subject) then you won't get a better job even if you got an interview.  Again, something is off here and I'm not sure what it is.

Also, you haven't said what state you live in but $120K/year might be very unrealistic.   Don't run before you know how to walk.   Not trying to be harsh but I'm not liking some of the decisions so far and think you need to make a drastic shift or learn to be happy at $30K.

MrMoneyPinch

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 04:02:17 PM »
I did college early (actually started at 15y/o), minored in Criminal Justice and majored in Business Management (graduated with bachelor's). I have not been able to find anything more than entry-level jobs in the last 5 years. Got hired at a local grocery store fresh out of college, and am currently working grocery store and pizza delivery.

Then I come here and read about everyone who makes $120k starting as an engineer/office flunky/etc., and feel like I've somehow done something wrong. Where are these jobs and how do you people get them?

Let me give you a little perspective on your goal.  According to the bureau of labor and statistics, a 120k$ income is between the top 10 to 15% of earners (200k+ makes up 5%, 150-199k is another 5%, then 100-149k is 12% of people).  So if you want to make that kind of coin, you have to beat at least 80% of the country to do it.

How you do it is the catch. Some people are especially lucky, some are especially bright, but most joes have to be especially persistent to make it.  You have to hustle to push a career to these heights.  Or you start a business and work it, but I don't know much about that. 

I'm not there, but it's getting close.  I had to get a B.Sc, then a 33k$ job that gave a great return on resume.  Then I stuck with it for many years(with rising salary, but nothing explosive).  I had to jump ship to transmute my nice resume into real $$, and take a few risks.  It's hard work, I had a few bumps on the way (that's what risk means), and I've worked longer than MMM. 

I think the temp agency idea is interesting:  they usually do the selling for you, which lets you add a few relevant gigs to your resume.  Don't get sucked in too long, because you will probably not be paid a lot for the "no-money-in-between-gigs" risk.  When your resume looks good, shop it around and see what happens.

waltworks

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2014, 05:16:35 PM »
I have 2 kids and dearly love them, but assuming I am reading your timeline correctly (ie, you are in your early/mid-20s) yes, you are your future shafted self. You had 2 kids before you had a job that paid more than $30k/year? Yikes. That just puts you in a staying-afloat situation indefinitely.

Of course, that's not something that you should try to change!

So:
-Make some specific plan - it could just be to make it really clear to your supervisors that you're interested in working up to management (they may assume that because you turned down one promotion you will turn down others and haven't offered again). Or it could be moving to another part of the country to work in some specific field. But come up with a plan. It sounds like you failed to follow through on the RE course. Remedy that and finish it, if for nothing else to prove to yourself that you're the kind of person who finishes things.  People who will see a task through to the end are pretty well represented among folks who make $120k/year. :)
-Consider selling the house so you have some cushion/safety net and renting *or moving to another city/state* so you can look aggressively for jobs and/or intern for nothing to get your foot in the door. Google up unemployment rates by state (hint: here in UT it's like 3.5% and there are help wanted signs everywhere) and see if you'd like to live there. Or (if you can qualify for a mortgage - how did you manage to buy your current house?) fix up your house, sell it, and look for another beater house to fix up. Read up on flipping first, of course.
-Since you own a house and have young kids, you could consider starting an in-home daycare. Laws on that vary a lot by state so you'd need to do some homework but if you like kids and are in the right place, it can be a great way to earn a living.
-Don't ever mention your age when you started college again, especially in a job application/interview context. It is simultaneously pathetic (given your current situation) and arrogant. Not a good combo.

-W

backyardfeast

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2014, 09:57:26 PM »
Just for some possible alternative perspective...

You say that the loose goal is to create rentals, and that you could likely ER on 2-3.  Although the process is slow at the moment, this suggests that, in fact, it's possible that you are doing just fine!  You are obviously living a mustachian life in a low COL area if you can support a family and fix up your house at the same time.  It's possible that there's nothing wrong with your life, if you're happy with the idea that it will take some time, but you will get there.

You're young, your kids are presumably young..what does your wife do?  Remember that you need to think in terms of household income, not just your own.  Is there any chance your wife is interested in a career?

You've had some excellent examples here of what it takes to get to the $120K salary jobs.  Are you interested in working that hard?  It doesn't sound like you have been so far, and that's ok.  Not all of us prioritize the hustle and trade-offs that are involved in making that kind of money.  One point of mustachianism is to build the life that you are happy with.  For you, that might not be a high-paying corporate job. I know that's not the life for me, for instance! :)

So the real question is not, how do I get a magic job, but what are my goals?  If you were to get your rentals and become ER, what would you do with your time?

All that said, if you do want to start climbing a corporate ladder--good news!  You already work for two, very large corporations.  Start with where you are instead of looking elsewhere.  Go talk to your managers.  Tell them that you did a business degree, that you've been happy working with them for the last # of years as you've been starting your family.  Then tell them that now that life is settling down, you'd really like to work on advancing in the company.  What can you do to start down that path?  Overtime? Substitute or temporary manager when someone is sick?  Applying for other jobs in the wider company? (Go to the corporate websites for Dominos and Kroeger/QFC.  What kinds of jobs are available?  What kind of experience/ training are they looking for?  How could you get it?)  Most of these large corporations have training camps and other opportunities to move up from within (although maybe Dominos is a franchise?)  Do everything you're asked to do, do it well and with a good attitude.  It will take you far.

Alternatively, again, there's nothing wrong with working 2 jobs and a side hustle (your house), for the benefits and flexibility they offer, and building your Real estate empire bit by bit...It's all about your priorities and how much energy you're willing to put into them.


Allie

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2014, 09:59:34 PM »
Sounds like your self 5 years ago gave the you of today the shaft by not aggressively pursuing desirable, employable skills; networking; or sucking it up and accepting additional responsibilities at work.  Just be happy that right now you have the opportunity to start doing these things to avoid shafting the you of 5 years from now.  You've been coasting for a while, so it will take lots more time and energy, but if you start now you won't be writing this same post again in another 5 years!  :)

APowers

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 12:34:07 AM »
Wow. A lot to think about here. Thanks!

I agree with everyone that I should learn how to give a better interview. Those sorts of books will go on my mental library book list, and I'll go from there. Recommendations (or links to threads on this)?

Liberty Stache-- Good point about focusing on delivering value. How do you estimate/calculate value delivered for a office/corporate/management/etc. role?

Why are you so aggressively trying to pay off the house?  That doesn't make sense. You said you can't look for other opportunities because you'd have to quit the grocery store.  Save up a cushion so that you CAN take a slightly lower paying temp job (temp jobs in my area pay only slightly less than you make now but that could be area specific) and you could look into ACA for insurance.  Paying extra money to the house (and subsequent remodeling repairs) is setting you back from starting the most important part of your overall job equation.

Also, you haven't said what state you live in but $120K/year might be very unrealistic.   Don't run before you know how to walk.   Not trying to be harsh but I'm not liking some of the decisions so far and think you need to make a drastic shift or learn to be happy at $30K.

I'm paying off the house for multiple reasons: mainly, no mortgage means our monthly expenses are cut by 44%; also mainly, owning rentals is the FI plan, so paid off house makes the most sense to me.

I honestly have no idea what temp jobs pay, but I assume that they're minimum wage ($9.32/hr here in WA). We're up in NW WA-- closest "big city" is 90min drive, Seattle is 3 hours. We've honestly been considering moving closer to a big metro area (if only for the better job market). We can't pay mortgage AND rent another place, but we could probably make it okay if we had no mortgage payment to make.

I have 2 kids and dearly love them, but assuming I am reading your timeline correctly (ie, you are in your early/mid-20s) yes, you are your future shafted self. You had 2 kids before you had a job that paid more than $30k/year? Yikes. That just puts you in a staying-afloat situation indefinitely.

Yes, you're reading the timeline correctly. I'm 25 (26 in Dec), married at 21, have two kids (ages 2 & 3). I would disagree that I'm in a "staying-afloat" situation. If I continue on as I am, with the plan I have, I'll hit FI (3 paid-off houses) by the time I'm 35; that seems like a pretty good win to me, and that's assuming my current situation doesn't improve at all. I just look at it, and then I read all the super-awesome mustachian success stories on here and think that I probably could/should be doing better.

Just for some possible alternative perspective...

...

You're young, your kids are presumably young..what does your wife do?  Remember that you need to think in terms of household income, not just your own.  Is there any chance your wife is interested in a career?

You've had some excellent examples here of what it takes to get to the $120K salary jobs.  Are you interested in working that hard?  It doesn't sound like you have been so far, and that's ok.  Not all of us prioritize the hustle and trade-offs that are involved in making that kind of money.  One point of mustachianism is to build the life that you are happy with.  For you, that might not be a high-paying corporate job. I know that's not the life for me, for instance! :)

So the real question is not, how do I get a magic job, but what are my goals?  If you were to get your rentals and become ER, what would you do with your time?

...

Alternatively, again, there's nothing wrong with working 2 jobs and a side hustle (your house), for the benefits and flexibility they offer, and building your Real estate empire bit by bit...It's all about your priorities and how much energy you're willing to put into them.



Wife is moderately interested in bringing in some household income, but both of us agree that that should absolutely not happen at the expense of the children being sent to daycare or babysitters. So...there are possibilities (piano lessons, home day-care, etc) but it'd go against both our values to leave the kids with someone else while we both work.

I resent the implication (backyardfeast/Allie) that I'm not currently working hard. I'm clearly not in a place where my hard work is netting me the results I want it to, but I don't believe I'm "coasting" or not working that hard. Which is why I'm posting/asking here: where and how do I go to get better income? Because clearly I'm missing something about why companies pay people, like, even $50k/year, which seems like an enormous sum of money to me. Maybe because I grew up "poor" and really have no concept of values that large? I think that's a different discussion, though, and no good excuse for any lack of job-progress on my part.


Ynari

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 01:07:43 AM »
When I was interviewing for actuarial internships, I found this document very helpful: http://www.aviva.monstermediaworks.ca/Interview%20Tips.pdf

Information directly from companies or from educational websites tends to be more helpful than "career websites" that are filled with junk, but all I can suggest is more googling.

Use your resume to list relevant experience. Use your cover letter to make them like you - to show that you know what they want, anything important about you that may show off more relevant skill that isn't on your resume, and to explain anything that may otherwise be a turn-off. (You'd better put a damn good reason for 5 years of working at a grocery store on there, as well as something to explain why you're suddenly more ambitious. Something not about the money.)  While preparing for the interview, it's good to try to find evidence in the past few years of your life that you are qualified for a job other than a deli. Draw upon working on the deli to say that you're great at customer service, organizational skills, or whatever you were great at. If you've volunteered anywhere or actively pursued any hobbies, what can those say about the kind of worker you are? For instance, I was involved in a performance troupe during college, and it has been a wealth of interview answers as I talk about the project management experience, team skills, etc. etc., that I gained.

121 Seconds

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 03:26:28 AM »
Yes, you're reading the timeline correctly. I'm 25 (26 in Dec), married at 21, have two kids (ages 2 & 3). I would disagree that I'm in a "staying-afloat" situation. If I continue on as I am, with the plan I have, I'll hit FI (3 paid-off houses) by the time I'm 35; that seems like a pretty good win to me, and that's assuming my current situation doesn't improve at all. I just look at it, and then I read all the super-awesome mustachian success stories on here and think that I probably could/should be doing better.

    Right then, seems like things are going OK for you. Try not to compare yourself to others or their income levels too much as this rarely brings much joy. Decide for yourself what you truly desire and then step towards it. Congrats on marrying young, having kids and wanting to bring them up under your own roof. You have taken risks here that will pay dividends into the future that many people would be too fearful to take at your age. Two thumbs up. Enjoy the moment, remember with young children "The Days are Long, but the Years are Short". Focus on enjoying them while you can, there will always be opportunities to make more money another day.

That been said you should also ask yourself, "What sort of an example do I want to set for my kids?" Invest in the right places and the rest will take care of itself.

Finally, whatever you do find yourself doing, do it with all your heart as this will be more enjoyable for you and will get noticed in the long run.

All the very best, thank you for your honesty, I have really enjoyed following this post.


2Birds1Stone

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2014, 06:35:37 AM »
Since I'm at lunch right now I'll share my story:

Graduated from a state school with a 4 year degree in "business".  Took a job as an hourly, low level manager of a major retailer; I was 23 at the time.  After 6 months of hard work I was promoted to assistant manager and put on salary starting at 47k per year.  Continued to work hard and over 3 years received two merit based raises on top of small COLA raises; at my peak I was making 67k per year.  I decided I wanted a change of scenery and interviewed for an operations management position with another large company (two of my years in retail management were in operations).  I was offered a position right around 100k per year.

So I'm not the 120k per year guy you speak of; however, I'm pretty happy with my progress so far.  The biggest advice I would give you is to work on your people skills.  Learn how to interact effectively with people.  This will be the most important skill you will have as a traditional "business" manager.  Also, practice your interview skills a lot.  I was a hiring manager for the retailer and had to do tons of interview prep...nothing prepared me better for my own interviews than this.

Keep plugging away and if you don't like where you are, feel like you have no upward mobility, find something else.  That's what I did!

Best of luck.

Similar situation here.

I actually went to school for Health Sciences/Biology, after 2.5 years I decided it really wasn't for me and started working in a retail position for $7.50/hr + commission. I moved up to a salaried assistant manager position making $22,000/yr + Commission and full benefits, another 18 months go by and I was promoted to manager at my own location making $28k/yr + Commission. Total compensation has been ~$50k/yr for the past 3 years. I started to think about what I want to do next and realized I want out of retail asap. I really enjoy sales so I started applying to inside sales positions doing business to business stuff. 6 weeks ago I got a call from a Fortune 500 company HR rep who did a quick phone screening, after that I had 6 interviews over the past month including a few phone interviews with senior management. I got an offer last week and accepted. The new gig pays ~$85k/yr to start with total compensation, and the sky is the limit.

You have to find out what you are good at, find a niche, and be persistent. There is no doubt in my mind I will be cracking a low 6 figure income by my second year at megacorp with no degree.

(PS - MMM Forums/blog really opened my eyes and were the extra fire under my ass to stop being complacent with current job and be proactive to change something)

BPA

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2014, 06:54:43 AM »
My friends in the business world say that there are a lot of new, inexperienced people who seem to think entry level jobs are beneath them.  But that's how people get started.

Maybe a shift in attitude about what you are entitled to is in order?


crispy

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2014, 07:02:04 AM »
Have you considered moving into the management track at your current employer?  I know a couple of managers for large stores, and they make pretty good salaries.  A store manager at Walmart usually makes in the 100K range.

waltworks

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2014, 07:40:40 AM »
If you are on track to have 3 paid off houses in 10 years on pizza delivery and grocery clerk money, while supporting 3 other people, you are amazing. Post a case study, so we can all bow to your superior thriftiness, because even if your expenses were zero, that seems like it would be hard to achieve on $30k/year.

-W

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2014, 08:52:15 AM »
glassdoor.com can give you some good insight into salaries in different jobs in different parts of the country. You could look through some different careers in different areas to see if it's worth it to you and the family to seek a higher paying career. Personally, I think you could likely find a better match and higher pay for your education than working at the grocery store and pizza delivery, but whatever makes you happy. Good luck!

Allie

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2014, 12:07:36 PM »
Posting can make communication more difficult.  I didn't mean to imply you haven't been working hard.  A family with two young kids and two jobs and a house project can be crazy draining.  But, if your goal is to get a lucrative 100k job, then you haven't been working nearly hard enough at that goal.  Everyone I know (I am not in the group) who has that sort of job at a young age either has a very specialized skill set that helps them solve complex problems (petroleum engineer, biochemical engineer etc) or has worked like a dog (weeks long roughneck shifts, 80+ hour weeks). 

Do you really want that?  Your plan to renovate houses and have a rental empire seems to be what you have been working towards.  Maybe you should be looking to leverage those skills.  Learn more about real estate transactions.  Have your wife use her skills to bring in some extra money to get your place paid off faster.  Learn more lucrative trades like welding and get a side hustle, MMM style.  Get your foot in the door managing properties for other people at a reduced rate to really learn the business.  This may be your path to freedom and wealth, not some job in an office.


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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2014, 08:58:29 PM »
Or you could be an Officer in the Army, use your tuition benefits to work on your CS degree while or after service, and then rock the world as a defense contractor.

Or you could just stay in as an officer and you'll be in the six figures range around 4-10 years in, depending on where you're stationed (some aspects of military pay are location-based).

backyardfeast

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2014, 09:28:54 PM »
+1 to Allie.

Sorry OP, I totally didn't mean to imply that you weren't working hard.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  I was just trying to say (in a complete over-generalization) that people who are really driven to earn lots of money above all else tend to be focused on that goal and do whatever it takes to get it, even at a fairly young age.  If you weren't already hustling, shmoozing, putting in the 80hr weeks, etc, my implication was not that you couldn't do that, or that you might not want to do that, but that it's also ok NOT to do that.  (I'm completely talking to myself here, because I've been at the frugality/RE game a long time, and have yet been slow acheiving it because I haven't been willing to focus on the $).

I only wanted, as others have done, to validate the choices that you HAVE made, and present the possibility that you are already on a track that will get you to ER, if that's what you want.  The gross numbers, to some degree, aren't that relevant.

That said, if in fact you are feeling ambitious and underemployed and you WANT to go after the brass ring, you're getting lots of good advice here, and I stand by my suggestion of talking to your current employers about climbing their corporate ladders.

NICE!

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2014, 08:29:26 AM »
Another option. Be willing to move. I know, it is hard because you have kids. Younger and unattached people have more flexibility and that's the genesis of a lot of high earning as an adult.  If you want to achieve what you seek you'll have to take risk.

The US (I assume you're American, my apologies if you aren't) is in the midst of a few game-changing economic shifts:
1) Tech/Silicon Valley, although you might've missed the best returns on this one and the COL of the Bay Area is not favorable. Safeway is unionized in CA, though.
2) Oil/Gas boom.
3) Urbanization in general. I'll specifically reference DC since I lived there, where it is kinda over, or at least stalled...growth of the federal government and concomitant growth of the DC metro area. I know plenty of people who moved there to do the same work and made a good bit more, along with giving them upward trajectories. You can also work nonprofit, but that doesn't really solve your desire for $120k. My wife worked nonprofit there and went from $34k in year one to $60k in year 3. Getting higher than that would've taken a VP job, which probably would've taken more risk and another few years.

I personally think #2 is the best bet for you because you don't have to have a bunch of experience/training to jump in on this glut of resources we can now access. McDonald's is paying ridiculous sums just to flip burgers in ND. However, you don't have to do that. There are tons of jobs that you can get hired into in oil/gas and then hopefully work your way up. The climate sucks, but that should be at the bottom of a reasonable person's decision matrix if they feel that they need to make a major career change to get what they want.

An example: My friend, who had 6 years experience as an officer in the military, is an oil and gas pipeline controller. Basically he makes sure the right amount of oil/gas gets from point A to point B, while making sure everything is safe and within regulatory standards. He tells me that pretty much everyone is older in this field and they need people. It would NOT be easy for you to get this job because while he didn't have directly applicable skills, he got a lot of credit for being an officer, where he went to college, and the fact that his military career field has some relevant skills (he worked with satellites and nuclear missiles).

Also, he lives in Houston making high-5, if not 6 figures with enough OT days. His salary goes miles further in Houston than mine does in CA. Also, while TX may not be a cultural fit for many on this board, Houston is a big port city, so it is sufficiently diverse and cosmopolitan to be a good bit different than the national image of TX. Houses are running in the 100s there for the type of place a MMM-type would buy.

electriceagle

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Re: Am I my future shafted self?
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2014, 07:15:37 PM »
5 years of looking for a job and all you can find is pizza delivery and grocery store worker?  I think there's more to this story.  What type of jobs have you turned down? Are they jobs related to your degree (business)?  Have you gotten feedback from jobs that you didn't get.  5 years is way too long in my opinion and there may be a reason for it.  Elaborate and maybe we can offer some guidance.

I haven't been job-hopping for 5 years. I've been at the grocery store (a clerk in the deli at QFC-- a Kroger subsidiary) for all 5 years, and have done a couple random side gigs (Census in 2010, that sort of thing) here and there on top of QFC. I started delivering pizzas a year ago last month, and am currently at QFC 3 days/week (enough to keep us in health insurance) and at Domino's 4 days/week.

*Re: property management...I'm still getting into it, but at this point, it's by dint of force-- slowly saving and fixing and owning and renting my own properties-- and not by being able to have a "job" in the industry. My basic FI plan involves owning about 3-4 rentals (actually could probably ER on 2 rentals + paid off home). I do want some way to get some experience in the field prior to just jumping in with my own property, but I don't know how that's going to happen at this rate.

It sounds like you're in a part of the country that doesn't have much to offer economically. Most of the people who make 120k+ in their 20s/30s do so on one of the coasts or in a city that is a hub for their particular skill set. If you want a good job, you're going to have to go where the good jobs are.

On the other hand, it also sounds like you live in an area where real estate is cheap (you expect to pay off your house at age ~24). In such areas, rent/purchase price ratios tend to be high. If you are in an area with properties that meet the 2% rule, you can do quite well.

Maybe you can go after the best of both worlds -- move to where the jobs are and use the money to buy real estate in your cheap town.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!