Alternative living to home ownership?

[kork]

I've been a homeowner for 20 years and we're paying off our mortgage in 2 months. I live in a nice home, in a decent neighbourhood. So in 2 months we'll be mortgage free and we currently rent out part of our home for $1000/month to a wonderful tenant.

But as my daughters, 17 (18 in 5 months) and 15, get closer to becoming adults, we're looking at what we're going to do next.  We live in Canada and quite frankly, are starting to hate it here. Out of control immigration/infestation, taxation that's servicing debt and out of control spending, unaffordable real-estate and a draconian current government has me looking around and thinking this whole concept of owning and living in a home that's partially buried in the ground in a city we're no longer considering "home" really has us looking at alternatives.

But we don't really know what options are available that are somewhat responsible.

Tiny houses are interesting and while cost cutting is attractive, tiny houses are a little "too tiny" and tiny house communities in Canada seem far and few between though there are a number of "nanny suites" or "granny flats" that people are building to rent out.  But they rent for thousands of dollars a month. It's so expensive! Not only that, but we still have daughters.

Trailers in a park are an interesting concept, but in Canada, it's only 6 months of the year.

Home Exchange is interesting because it allows us to leverage the equity in our home and keep invested in real-estate but then "exchange it" without the tax implications of income rent. But I don't know how feasible it is 12 months of the year.  There may/could be periods of time that we'd be without a place to live. Also, I'm not old. One horrible part of FIRE is that many your same-age friends are still working.

I love the idea of living on a resort but WITHOUT a hedonistic abundance of food and alcohol like all-inclusives. Having a community pool with a waterfall, workout out at the gym, playing pickle ball, or other activities and lazing back in a lawn chair and when I'm done, go back to a quiet, 2 bedroom condo/house without exorbitant condo fees.

We're right on the edge of being FIRE and my wife just lost her job last week so will be riding the EI wagon for a bit. I work from home and my schedule is autonomous. Nothing stops us from getting in the car today and driving a few hours to try out a different style of living. The kids are able to stay home overnight now so we have that freedom.

I just don't know how to try out something new because I don't know what something new could be? But I do know that this whole "Get married, settle down, buy a house, have kids and retire" thing isn't working and I'm done with it!

[aloevera1]

Is there something specific that you dislike about home ownership?

Your post reads like general dissatisfaction/lack of interest with your life, rather than something that could be solved through housing.

Do you know what you'll be doing once the parenting is over? 

You could trying different lifestyles without complicating your housing situation. You could pick up an outdoor hobby, go golfing frequently, plan to slow travel after your RE, etc.

Just didn't see why housing is a culprit here. Having paid off home is sweet. Swapping it for a hippy commune may or may not solve deeper existential questions.

[Dancin'Dog]

I don't understand the appeal of tiny homes. 


I've been watching YouTubers who slow-travel.  They mainly visit affordable countries, moving along as their visas, the weather, or their whims dictate. Central America, SE Asia, and Eastern Europe seem to be quite popular destinations. 


All these locations are much more affordable than the US & Canada.  Health care, rent, and food are often 50% or more lower than in the states.  Of course, there are language barriers but English is common in the larger and more touristy locations.  Missing friends & family would be a negative, but technology makes it easier to keep in touch. 

[spartana]

I agree with @aloevera that it sounds more like general life dissatisfaction and a bit of midlife crisis driving the need for change rather than your housing situation (and based on your past posts I'd say that's correct). So making a drastic change that's not easily reversible (like selling your paid off house on a whim and living in a way you haven't even experienced yet) probably isn't the best idea. Maybe wait until full FI, see where your kids land, and then rent out the house and try out different ways to live and see what clicks if anything.

I've also been a homeowner for the past 20-something years and sold my home in a big metro area suburb and moved to a different location and it was great. I choose to buy again for various reasons rather then rent however renting would have been a better option adding more flexibility. I'm selling that place (bye bye cute cabin in the woods) and as of today I'll be a homeless vagabond (well a short term rental homeless vagabond) and feel a bit insecure about it but the freedom is nice. So that's an option you have - rent out your place for a year or sell it and just try other things or other places. Don't tie yourself down to anything - especially a tiny house or difficult to live in or sell asset - until your sure what, if any, changes you want to make. Just rent an apt or do a short term airbnb rental.

ETA: BF (who also sold his home) and I plan to just drive around to check out some other areas to see where we want to live next. We could easily done that while keeping my paid off place and just using it as a home base. Which would have been a better option but being in a very high wildfire zone in Calif made me want to sell.   I think that keeping your place as a home base may be the best option for you - especially since you have a paying tenant who could keep an eye on your place and in came your kids still want to live there. Freedom AND security is a pretty sweet thing. 

[Ron Scott]

I've been a homeowner for 20 years and we're paying off our mortgage in 2 months. I live in a nice home, in a decent neighbourhood. So in 2 months we'll be mortgage free and we currently rent out part of our home for $1000/month to a wonderful tenant.

But as my daughters, 17 (18 in 5 months) and 15, get closer to becoming adults, we're looking at what we're going to do next.  We live in Canada and quite frankly, are starting to hate it here. Out of control immigration/infestation, taxation that's servicing debt and out of control spending, unaffordable real-estate and a draconian current government has me looking around and thinking this whole concept of owning and living in a home that's partially buried in the ground in a city we're no longer considering "home" really has us looking at alternatives.

But we don't really know what options are available that are somewhat responsible.

Tiny houses are interesting and while cost cutting is attractive, tiny houses are a little "too tiny" and tiny house communities in Canada seem far and few between though there are a number of "nanny suites" or "granny flats" that people are building to rent out.  But they rent for thousands of dollars a month. It's so expensive! Not only that, but we still have daughters.

Trailers in a park are an interesting concept, but in Canada, it's only 6 months of the year.

Home Exchange is interesting because it allows us to leverage the equity in our home and keep invested in real-estate but then "exchange it" without the tax implications of income rent. But I don't know how feasible it is 12 months of the year.  There may/could be periods of time that we'd be without a place to live. Also, I'm not old. One horrible part of FIRE is that many your same-age friends are still working.

I love the idea of living on a resort but WITHOUT a hedonistic abundance of food and alcohol like all-inclusives. Having a community pool with a waterfall, workout out at the gym, playing pickle ball, or other activities and lazing back in a lawn chair and when I'm done, go back to a quiet, 2 bedroom condo/house without exorbitant condo fees.

We're right on the edge of being FIRE and my wife just lost her job last week so will be riding the EI wagon for a bit. I work from home and my schedule is autonomous. Nothing stops us from getting in the car today and driving a few hours to try out a different style of living. The kids are able to stay home overnight now so we have that freedom.

I just don't know how to try out something new because I don't know what something new could be? But I do know that this whole "Get married, settle down, buy a house, have kids and retire" thing isn't working and I'm done with it!

FWIW—that ship has sailed…

I also think you know your options.

It sounds like you need to take a breather and figure out what you want from life. I wouldn’t make any major decisions right away.

[franklin4]

It is strange timing to decide you don't like your house when you are on the verge of paying it off! Maybe wait 6+ months after that debt is gone to see how that goes. Could you rent out your part of the house short-term and travel for a few months at a time? If you can make money off your house and you expect it to continue increasing in value it would be good to figure out a way to keep it.

From what you write about not liking the politics/situation in Canada - the US and most European countries might not suit you much better. Debt and mass immigration seem to be big issues in much of the first world. Probably there are areas of your country that are not seeing so much immigration and that might make the taxes easier to cope with.

[RetiredAt63]

Are you in Toronto/Vancouver?  Because there are a lot of nice parts of Canada that are not as high cost of living. 

What are your daughters' plans for College/University?  If you are in a place where they can live at home while they do post-secondary schooling you want to stay there.  My DD spent a lot of money on living costs after HS because we didn't live in a city (we were in a very nice, quite rural, very LCOL area) and she couldn't live at home and go to school.

What is available in your area for recreation that you are not taking advantage of right now?  I am about to move again (5th time in 5 years, yes it is crazy but there were good reasons) and for this move I was really picky about what amenities/activities would be available in the new location.  Almost everything I want/need is within a 20 minute drive and the rest is still a reasonable drive. By the way, if you haven't moved recently, moving is hell.

If you want to travel you can do it just as easily with your house - your tenant can make sure nothing horrible happens.  Extensive travel means an apartment/condo, and as someone who transitioned from a paid for house on an acre of land in the country to renting apartments/condos, the transition is not easy.  Friends who have done the same thing agree, none of us miss our previous houses specifically but we all miss the space, yards, gardens, back decks, privacy.

[SunnyDays]

I read this as political dissatisfaction.  The house is just what you feel is tying you to a country whose current values are not your own.

I would wait until your younger daughter is launched, sell the house and move somewhere that has the political climate and racial makeup you prefer.

[kork]

Thank-you to those who posted.

Of course, there are other issues ongoing, but such is life. I'm actually doing better these days for those who are pinpointing MLC or other things.

This thread really is just about looking for alternative living outside of the typical house and the responsibilities involved.

Yes, to the GTA.  The city we're in (which is where I grew up) is becoming overrun by junkies and immigrants. The population where I am is set to grow 10X in the next 5 years and 70-80% of the new residents come from the Brampton/Newmarket Corridor. While this may be good for resale, it's going to be horrible for quality of life in the neighbourhood. Most new developments turn into rentals and it's not uncommon to see a dozen people living in the same home sectioned out as a duplex.

So this is my home town, but it's no longer my home. I no longer walk down a street and feel childhood joy, but rather, a sadness of it when I see what it's become.

We've committed to staying where we are for the next three years until D15 is ready to go off to College/University. Their education is already covered through a very healthy RESP and continues to grow.

I'm really just curious about ways that other people live that I may not be aware of that may be wonderful. People living on a cruise ship, or permanently vacationing at a resort because it's cost effective and wonderful. Or living in a cottage with friends. I don't know. Or <fill in the blank here>.

Renting out part of our home is relatively new to us and it's working out well so far. So that opens up the possibility to keep our home while the bills/taxes are being covered and if we're not here, it's still being watched and occupied.

[scantee]

It sounds like what you want is to buy or rent in a retirement community. Most have a simple age requirement, usually 55 but some are 50 or even 45.  This will give you the stability you want and the opportunity to find one that has people like you as it sounds like that is important to you.
Most of these communities are gated so you won’t have to interact with anyone other than residents and staff. Florida and Arizona are obvious choices and there are a fair number of Canadians there, but you’ll need to spend a portion of the year in Canada. Perhaps you could sell your current place and buy a smaller place that is in a remote area of Canada for the times you need to be in country.

[spartana]

There van/RV life. Either part time while keeping a home base (doesn't have to be your current home) or full time. Sailboat living. Full time slow travel over seas using Airbnbs or just regular furnished apt rentals. House swaps. An "active" retirement community as mentioned above for the 45 or 55 plus community. Working and living on a farm. Pet or house sitting. Contels - a condo hotel in a resort that you can rent out  if you want. Full time hotel living. Etc.

All have some advantages and disadvantages. Disadvantages are mainly not being able to have your kids and any future grandkids stay long (this might be an advantage :)).  Not being very "age in place" friendly. Becoming unaffordable at some point. Having to deal with others in a way you don't want too. Etc. If you want some stability I'd look at downsizing to a different location to get away from the things you don't like (my old hood went the same way as yours did so I get the desire to leave) set up a home base and then explore other options.

And don't forget about the snow birding thing. That can be done in a multiple of ways from owning 2 properties and going hetween them to renting 2 properties and going different places each time.

[Freedomin5]

There are active living communities near you that do not have an age requirement (there’s one just north of Stouffville). It’s a gated golf community and your monthly maintenance fees include access to the pool, tennis courts, workout room, etc. at the clubhouse as well as reduced fees for the golf course, which is an award-winning course. Since there is no age requirement, your daughters could live with you.

It’s not going to solve your hatred for Canada and the government, but it will reduce your likelihood of bumping into scads of recent immigrants. It’s also not going to solve your dissatisfaction with housing prices.

Another option is to move north, far far north. My friend moved to Thunder Bay from the GTA. She works from home, and she is absolutely thrilled with her decision. She moved three years ago. She bought a large house on a ton of land for half the price of their GTA house. She’s surrounded by nature. She enjoys the slower pace of life. And she still has all the amenities of a small city (access to healthcare, etc.). Even if you don’t move that far north, by the time you get to Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, or Huntsville, the number of immigrants drop and housing becomes more affordable compared to the GTA.

[kite]

Infestation?
Canada? 


Go to church. Get involved in something bigger than yourselves. Unless you’re uprooting your kids, you’re somewhat tied. Make it more bearable by having a higher purpose that you are giving something back to. It doesn’t need to be Christianity, it could be saving a barred owl or feeding the homeless.
Then look to relocate where your kids are going to settle and bring your “church” along with you when you go. By that I mean settle into the same non-politics civic goodness in your new hometown. This is the long game. It’ll make the present more pleasant and the ultimate relocation more successful. You’re going to want to live somewhat near the someday grandkids anyway. 

[ixtap]

You are mad about immigration so you want to become an immigrant?

[Morning Glory]

I'm confused.  You say "Infestation" about people not from your neighborhood but want to move elsewhere.  What is to stop the people who are already there from thinking you are the "Infestation"?

Perhaps you would have an easier time making friends if you would knock it off with the hate speech and actually get to know people as individuals. Or quietly move to the burbs for <cough> "better schools" and leave out the dehumanizing rhetoric. Or just read some books about the refugee experience.  Whatever.  These are people just like you, not <insert epithet the far right is calling them these days>.I bet 2 or 3 generations back your ancestors were called names too unless they were extremely rich/lucky. Maybe some were rounded up into camps or murdered because a politician used language similar to yours.

ETA You seemed pretty decent on other posts which is why I'm bothering to respond instead of just reporting you. Perhaps you didn't realize your phrasing sounded bigoted and also similar to a neofascist dog whistle. Please change it in future posts. I know I sound harsh but it seems like others have tried to get this across more subtly and failed.

[kork]

I'm confused.  You say "Infestation" about people not from your neighborhood but want to move elsewhere.  What is to stop the people who are already there from thinking you are the "Infestation"?

Perhaps you would have an easier time making friends if you would knock it off with the hate speech and actually get to know people as individuals. Or quietly move to the burbs for <cough> "better schools" and leave out the dehumanizing rhetoric. Or just read some books about the refugee experience.  Whatever.  These are people just like you, not <insert epithet the far right is calling them these days>.I bet 2 or 3 generations back your ancestors were called names too unless they were extremely rich/lucky. Maybe some were rounded up into camps or murdered because a politician used language similar to yours.

ETA You seemed pretty decent on other posts which is why I'm bothering to respond instead of just reporting you. Perhaps you didn't realize your phrasing sounded bigoted and also similar to a neofascist dog whistle. Please change it in future posts. I know I sound harsh but it seems like others have tried to get this across more subtly and failed.

I'm identifying the challenges that I currently face as a father of teenage girls in our current community. I'm being honest in my concerns, as I've always been.

I value the diversity in Canada and have had many positive experiences with people from various backgrounds. In my workplace and in downtown Toronto for 20 years, I've seen wonderful examples of cultural exchange and cooperation. My work is comprised of people from all ethic backgrounds from every corner of the globe.

Like yourself, I strongly support welcoming refugees who are seeking a better life. Their determination and courage are admirable qualities that can contribute positively to our society. These are the people we want in Canada!

However, I've observed some concerning trends in my community that are concerning which are all linked to a particular culture.

• There's been an increase in certain crimes, like vehicle theft. This has led to higher insurance costs for many residents, including myself.
• I'm deeply worried about reports of human trafficking targeting young people at local malls. As a father, this is particularly alarming to me.
• I've witnessed instances where my teenage daughters felt unsafe or were inappropriately approached by adults. This has heightened my concern for their well-being.
• In some neighborhoods, there are issues with overcrowding in residential homes, which affects community dynamics and raises questions about housing regulations.
• Having served on multiple university advisory committee's, I've observed significant challenges in integrating large numbers of international students. While cultural diversity in education is valuable, it's important to ensure that academic standards are maintained and that all students receive the support they need.
• I'm concerned about current misuse of student visas and work permits, which undermines the integrity of our immigration system.

I haven't referred to a specific ethnic or national group, but rather about behaviors and systemic issues that are affecting my community both small and large in a negative way.

I believe in the importance of embracing Canadian values such as respect, meaningful contribution to society, and helping others. These principles should be upheld by all members of our community, regardless of their background.

But they're not.

And when we move, I'm looking to contribute to the neighbourhood in a meaningful way as I always have whether it be through volunteering (children's foundations, United Way, Hospice organizations). I hope I'm not viewed as part of an infestation and will try hard to become a contributing member of that community.

[kork]

Thank-you for the responses.

I hadn't considered van life and watched a few videos on the "struggles" of it. Yeah, that's not for me!

I'd never heard of "Contels" but I was recently looking at a resort close to me that you can purchase a condo, but rent it out. The resort takes a huge chunk and you need to buy their furtniture package, etc if you plan on renting it. I'll look into this a bit more.

And yes, I think I need to settle and see what "mortgage free" life is like. It won't be a huge difference financially (but perhaps the peace of mind of having one less payment will be uplifting?).

My oldest daughter is planning to go to school which is a 25 minute drive from our current home next year. That will put her into graduating when my youngest is heading to university. So for now, we'll continue on as we have for 3 years.

Perhaps the best idea is to rent an RV and try it out, or to take weekend trips to different places and communities. It could be that our community is just hotspot for the negative changes, except that I don't want to go further north.

<ADDED:> Regarding Contels, My realtor also mentioned that it's hard to get a mortgage since they aren't a typical residence. Also, I saw the financial statements of one which had a purchase price of $600k and it would need to rent out for around $30k/month to break even after property taxes, interest, mortgage payments and fees associated.  None of the months that I was provided showed it breaking even at that price point, and that was full available all the time.  It booked around 40-50% of the time AND you need to book it yourself to stay and pay to stay in your own place.

[aloevera1]

Reading your responses, I wonder if you would be happier in a smaller town. GTA is still very much an outlier both in terms of cost of living and population growth.

Also, for alternative living arrangements I know people who moved to Muskoka permanently and only come to GTA occasionally. Not sure how they deal with cabin fever though.

[spartana]

Thank-you for the responses.

I hadn't considered van life and watched a few videos on the "struggles" of it. Yeah, that's not for me!

I'd never heard of "Contels" but I was recently looking at a resort close to me that you can purchase a condo, but rent it out. The resort takes a huge chunk and you need to buy their furtniture package, etc if you plan on renting it. I'll look into this a bit more.

And yes, I think I need to settle and see what "mortgage free" life is like. It won't be a huge difference financially (but perhaps the peace of mind of having one less payment will be uplifting?).

My oldest daughter is planning to go to school which is a 25 minute drive from our current home next year. That will put her into graduating when my youngest is heading to university. So for now, we'll continue on as we have for 3 years.

Perhaps the best idea is to rent an RV and try it out, or to take weekend trips to different places and communities. It could be that our community is just hotspot for the negative changes, except that I don't want to go further north.

<ADDED:> Regarding Contels, My realtor also mentioned that it's hard to get a mortgage since they aren't a typical residence. Also, I saw the financial statements of one which had a purchase price of $600k and it would need to rent out for around $30k/month to break even after property taxes, interest, mortgage payments and fees associated.  None of the months that I was provided showed it breaking even at that price point, and that was full available all the time.  It booked around 40-50% of the time AND you need to book it yourself to stay and pay to stay in your own place.

I don't know much about Contels but saw that Canada has some in their ski resort town (like the US does) as well as most resort areas and cities so thought it could be an option.

Van life (or RV life) can be ultra luxurious with monthly or annual.stays in 5 Star RV parks with every amenity possible so not always the "poor" vagabond depicted in YouTube videos. Some of the van and RVs cost more then many houses do and gives you the option to live other places by bringing your "home" with you. For a lot of more wealthy retirees people it's a good way to combine long term travel with full time living. Can be done overseas too.

Again, since you have kids and a spouse (I think) to consider you have more limited options compared to us single and/or childless people so you'll have to build your housing and lifestyle options around that. Vagabonding with a home base is pretty sweet any way you do it and will often fill the need to have greater life experiences.

Not my cup of tea by any means (dirt bagger life for me!) but lots of fancy RV parks, RVs and camper vans out there:

https://10best.usatoday.com/awards/travel/best-luxury-rv-resort-2024/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/tour-expensive-luxury-camper-vans-2020-7%3famp

[SunnyDays]

I know which ethnic group you are referring to, and I agree there are some issues with highly concentrated populations.  However, all of Canada is not like that.  There are plenty of places you could move within the country that would be free of such concerns.  You may need to deal with other factors, like fewer amenities or worse weather, but I assure you there is life outside of Toronto, or even Ontario.  We're a big country, perhaps do some research on other provinces and some visits, if possible.  You may be pleasantly surprised.

[Freedomin5]

We live in Muskoka at our lakeside cottage resort all summer and go back to the city during the school year. It’s amazing! No cabin fever at all, and the resort community is so friendly. The resort we are at is similar to a Contel except we own our cottage outright and do not have to pay extra to live in it. We can rent it out through the resort if we want, for extra income, but don’t have to if we don’t want to. Definitely do not need $30k/month to break even. More like $1k/month and that includes water and electricity. It also doesn’t cost 600k. I think a small cottage goes for around 160k and the most luxurious model is about 400k. There are other resorts following this model closer to the GTA (I think the closest may be Simcoe County?)

[Mustache Fatty]

Everyone is different, but we chose one of your options.  Specifically, we chose the "sell the house and move to a resort" option.  We have been here for about three years now.  We are living in a building that is probably 90% short-term rentals and we are among only a handful that live here full-time.  The place has all that you mentioned, like a gym, a pickleball court, a pool, (no waterfall, but a beach), etc.  We bought the place for cash and the HOA fee started at $600 per month, which includes everything except electricity.  However, since then the HOA fee has gone up to $1400 per month.  We have also had to pay some "special assessments".  But the building was completely renovated, so there is that.  It looks very nice, and lots of deferred maintenance was taken care of.  I don't want to say that the building looks "brand new," but it's pretty close.

Our original plan was to live here for 9 months out of the year and then rent it out for the summer season, (where rental rates are insane). We expected that the money we received from rentals in the summer would pay for all of our condo-related expenses.   We did that year 1, and everything worked just as we planned.  However, my wife doesn't want to rent it out anymore, so we have not done it the last 2 summers.  Anyway, despite all the additional expenses (and reduced revenue) I am actually enjoying living in a condo in a resort area.  A couple of random things:

--You mention not wanting to live like everything is all-inclusive.  We never dreamed we would live like that, but we did for at least a year.  We spent much, much more money than we did living comfortably in our old home that first year.  We got that out of our system though.

Random Thoughts:

-- I am pleasantly surprised at how quiet it is inside our condo despite being completely surrounded by families on vacation in all of the surrounding units.  By happenstance, it turns out that this building was specifically built to minimize noise levels.  It would not be good to be in a stick-built structure under these conditions.  We dodged a bullet there because while I was concerned about this issue when looking to buy, I really did not appreciate just how important this issue is.

--In our gluttonous first year of living here, we rarely used the amenities that surround us.  Once we calmed down from going out to eat so often and even doing "touristy" things around town, we use everything.  For instance, we now go out to the beach every morning.  Just today I anchored a cinder block to my floating lounge chair and sat out beyond the waves reading a book.  Shortly afterwards, I swam a few laps in the pool.  I use the gym 3-4 times a week.  I did none of this, ever, when I lived in my old home.   

--We really don't eat out much anymore.  We've tried all the places, and as you can imagine in a resort location, none of it is really worth the price.  Plus, if I do say so myself, we can just cook tastier food at home.  We also take the time to eat at the dinner table (with tablecloth and all the "fine dining" elements).  It is something we look forward to most nights, its cheap, and the view is incredible.

--It is unbelievably nice being freed up from maintaining the exterior of your house (and the landscaping, and cleaning your own pool, etc.).

In short, yes, our HOA fees have more than doubled, and we were hit with special assessments.  But we were financially prepared for that.  Whenever I start getting upset about all the extra expense, I remind myself that at any time we could pack up our stuff and move out for the summer like we did that first year.  The rental income (after taxes and management fees) would still pay for all of the expenses of this place, and then some.

So, I vote for "move to a resort." I could see you living the life that you envision.  You just might not be able to do it at the costs that you project!  So far, for us, it's still been worth it.  I'm not tired of it yet.

[Ladychips]

You mentioned you are in higher education. Would your school allow you to live in the dorms?

[FINate]

I'm confused.  You say "Infestation" about people not from your neighborhood but want to move elsewhere.  What is to stop the people who are already there from thinking you are the "Infestation"?

Perhaps you would have an easier time making friends if you would knock it off with the hate speech and actually get to know people as individuals. Or quietly move to the burbs for <cough> "better schools" and leave out the dehumanizing rhetoric. Or just read some books about the refugee experience.  Whatever.  These are people just like you, not <insert epithet the far right is calling them these days>.I bet 2 or 3 generations back your ancestors were called names too unless they were extremely rich/lucky. Maybe some were rounded up into camps or murdered because a politician used language similar to yours.

ETA You seemed pretty decent on other posts which is why I'm bothering to respond instead of just reporting you. Perhaps you didn't realize your phrasing sounded bigoted and also similar to a neofascist dog whistle. Please change it in future posts. I know I sound harsh but it seems like others have tried to get this across more subtly and failed.

I'm identifying the challenges that I currently face as a father of teenage girls in our current community. I'm being honest in my concerns, as I've always been.

I value the diversity in Canada and have had many positive experiences with people from various backgrounds. In my workplace and in downtown Toronto for 20 years, I've seen wonderful examples of cultural exchange and cooperation. My work is comprised of people from all ethic backgrounds from every corner of the globe.

Like yourself, I strongly support welcoming refugees who are seeking a better life. Their determination and courage are admirable qualities that can contribute positively to our society. These are the people we want in Canada!

However, I've observed some concerning trends in my community that are concerning which are all linked to a particular culture.

• There's been an increase in certain crimes, like vehicle theft. This has led to higher insurance costs for many residents, including myself.
• I'm deeply worried about reports of human trafficking targeting young people at local malls. As a father, this is particularly alarming to me.
• I've witnessed instances where my teenage daughters felt unsafe or were inappropriately approached by adults. This has heightened my concern for their well-being.
• In some neighborhoods, there are issues with overcrowding in residential homes, which affects community dynamics and raises questions about housing regulations.
• Having served on multiple university advisory committee's, I've observed significant challenges in integrating large numbers of international students. While cultural diversity in education is valuable, it's important to ensure that academic standards are maintained and that all students receive the support they need.
• I'm concerned about current misuse of student visas and work permits, which undermines the integrity of our immigration system.

I haven't referred to a specific ethnic or national group, but rather about behaviors and systemic issues that are affecting my community both small and large in a negative way.

I believe in the importance of embracing Canadian values such as respect, meaningful contribution to society, and helping others. These principles should be upheld by all members of our community, regardless of their background.

But they're not.

And when we move, I'm looking to contribute to the neighbourhood in a meaningful way as I always have whether it be through volunteering (children's foundations, United Way, Hospice organizations). I hope I'm not viewed as part of an infestation and will try hard to become a contributing member of that community.

In defense of OP, I sympathize and resonate with their situation. Just want to point out that you're not being unreasonable.

We had a similar experience, born and raise in an area we called home that, in many ways, moved away from us before we did. In our case it was a homelessness crisis that spiraled out of control and went from relatively benign to aggressively drug addled and dangerous. Somewhat related, a growing crime rate made daily life really unpleasant. The most frustrating/discouraging part was the level of gaslighting and condemnation we experienced for simply pointing it out and desiring some semblance of social order. Like being chastised for saying it's unacceptable to shoot up in playgrounds and leave dirty needles behind. Or something would be stolen and the response was "well, they needed it more than you" and the police wouldn't even show up to take a report. Or being criticized for simply becoming uncomfortable walking in our city due to aggressive anti-social behavior. Over time it became a growing source of stress, and the inability to even acknowledge the issues meant it was unlikely to be addressed anytime soon.

This wasn't the main reason we relocated, but we were careful to do our homework and research crime and safety for potential areas. Four years later and we're still extremely grateful to live in a clean, safe city. We feel completely comfortable letting our kids roam the neighborhood and bike to the local shopping area. They have a level of independence here that would be unthinkable in our previous city. The level of social disorder here is near zero, which has been hugely beneficial for our family as we don't worry about thefts, break-ins, or being accosted walking/biking around. Even little things like not smelling piss everywhere and not having everything locked behind Plexiglas at the drug store are still appreciated.

So OP, I totally get it. I don't know the Canadian housing market, can't comment on this part of your question. But, I would encourage you to start researching other cities and neighborhoods. Start with on-line resources and find a handful of likely candidates. Ask around and get some feedback from folks who live in these areas. More importantly, make some trips to these places to see with your own eyes. Official crime stats are helpful -- e.g. a really high per-capita theft rate is often associated with a systemic drug problem -- but can be tricky and don't always tell the whole story. IMO you're looking for clean streets, well kept houses/yards, minimal graffiti, kids and families playing in the neighborhood, sane people walking and biking around.

[FINate]

FWIW, while I'm not familiar with Canada's housing market, I do have a ChatGPT account that I find useful for generating ideas, So I asked it for a list of relatively affordable cities in Canada with low crime rates. I did a comparable query for the US and it came up with a surprisingly good list, more or less recreating what took me several months to arrive at. But I would still take it with a huge grain of salt, could be complete garbage:

• Kingston, Ontario
• Quebec City, Quebec
• Moncton, New Brunswick
• Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island
• Guelph, Ontario
• Sherbrooke, Quebec
• Saint John, New Brunswick

Of course there are other criteria to consider, just trying to provide a starting point.

[spartana]

I'm confused.  You say "Infestation" about people not from your neighborhood but want to move elsewhere.  What is to stop the people who are already there from thinking you are the "Infestation"?

Perhaps you would have an easier time making friends if you would knock it off with the hate speech and actually get to know people as individuals. Or quietly move to the burbs for <cough> "better schools" and leave out the dehumanizing rhetoric. Or just read some books about the refugee experience.  Whatever.  These are people just like you, not <insert epithet the far right is calling them these days>.I bet 2 or 3 generations back your ancestors were called names too unless they were extremely rich/lucky. Maybe some were rounded up into camps or murdered because a politician used language similar to yours.

ETA You seemed pretty decent on other posts which is why I'm bothering to respond instead of just reporting you. Perhaps you didn't realize your phrasing sounded bigoted and also similar to a neofascist dog whistle. Please change it in future posts. I know I sound harsh but it seems like others have tried to get this across more subtly and failed.

I'm identifying the challenges that I currently face as a father of teenage girls in our current community. I'm being honest in my concerns, as I've always been.

I value the diversity in Canada and have had many positive experiences with people from various backgrounds. In my workplace and in downtown Toronto for 20 years, I've seen wonderful examples of cultural exchange and cooperation. My work is comprised of people from all ethic backgrounds from every corner of the globe.

Like yourself, I strongly support welcoming refugees who are seeking a better life. Their determination and courage are admirable qualities that can contribute positively to our society. These are the people we want in Canada!

However, I've observed some concerning trends in my community that are concerning which are all linked to a particular culture.

• There's been an increase in certain crimes, like vehicle theft. This has led to higher insurance costs for many residents, including myself.
• I'm deeply worried about reports of human trafficking targeting young people at local malls. As a father, this is particularly alarming to me.
• I've witnessed instances where my teenage daughters felt unsafe or were inappropriately approached by adults. This has heightened my concern for their well-being.
• In some neighborhoods, there are issues with overcrowding in residential homes, which affects community dynamics and raises questions about housing regulations.
• Having served on multiple university advisory committee's, I've observed significant challenges in integrating large numbers of international students. While cultural diversity in education is valuable, it's important to ensure that academic standards are maintained and that all students receive the support they need.
• I'm concerned about current misuse of student visas and work permits, which undermines the integrity of our immigration system.

I haven't referred to a specific ethnic or national group, but rather about behaviors and systemic issues that are affecting my community both small and large in a negative way.

I believe in the importance of embracing Canadian values such as respect, meaningful contribution to society, and helping others. These principles should be upheld by all members of our community, regardless of their background.

But they're not.

And when we move, I'm looking to contribute to the neighbourhood in a meaningful way as I always have whether it be through volunteering (children's foundations, United Way, Hospice organizations). I hope I'm not viewed as part of an infestation and will try hard to become a contributing member of that community.

In defense of OP, I sympathize and resonate with their situation. Just want to point out that you're not being unreasonable.

We had a similar experience, born and raise in an area we called home that, in many ways, moved away from us before we did. In our case it was a homelessness crisis that spiraled out of control and went from relatively benign to aggressively drug addled and dangerous. Somewhat related, a growing crime rate made daily life really unpleasant. The most frustrating/discouraging part was the level of gaslighting and condemnation we experienced for simply pointing it out and desiring some semblance of social order. Like being chastised for saying it's unacceptable to shoot up in playgrounds and leave dirty needles behind. Or something would be stolen and the response was "well, they needed it more than you" and the police wouldn't even show up to take a report. Or being criticized for simply becoming uncomfortable walking in our city due to aggressive anti-social behavior. Over time it became a growing source of stress, and the inability to even acknowledge the issues meant it was unlikely to be addressed anytime soon.

This wasn't the main reason we relocated, but we were careful to do our homework and research crime and safety for potential areas. Four years later and we're still extremely grateful to live in a clean, safe city. We feel completely comfortable letting our kids roam the neighborhood and bike to the local shopping area. They have a level of independence here that would be unthinkable in our previous city. The level of social disorder here is near zero, which has been hugely beneficial for our family as we don't worry about thefts, break-ins, or being accosted walking/biking around. Even little things like not smelling piss everywhere and not having everything locked behind Plexiglas at the drug store are still appreciated.

So OP, I totally get it. I don't know the Canadian housing market, can't comment on this part of your question. But, I would encourage you to start researching other cities and neighborhoods. Start with on-line resources and find a handful of likely candidates. Ask around and get some feedback from folks who live in these areas. More importantly, make some trips to these places to see with your own eyes. Official crime stats are helpful -- e.g. a really high per-capita theft rate is often associated with a systemic drug problem -- but can be tricky and don't always tell the whole story. IMO you're looking for clean streets, well kept houses/yards, minimal graffiti, kids and families playing in the neighborhood, sane people walking and biking around.

While I bristled strongly at the term "infestation" - especially since my mom was a war refugee who lost everything (including her whole family) and grew up in a refugee camp until an adult and eventually immigrated to Toronto - my former city also had changed drasticly for the worse due to homeless drug addicts and mentally ill too so I get it.

The problem in the city and nearby shopping areas to me was becoming very very bad. Plus I was next to nice city park with a small walking pass thru next to my house and my front yard and the park entrance came to be used as a place to use drugs, drug dealing, defecate, prostitute, pass out and encamp. So many break ins and assaults. So much trash and drug paraphernalia. Screaming and ranting all night long. I was living alone and was constantly afraid to leave my house due to break in. And this was in a nice expensive family neighborhood. It change A LOT in the 10 years I lived there so I finally moved. So I totally get where the OP is coming from. If I had kids I wouldn't want them living there and walking in the area to school or to the corner stores.  Heck I didn't want to walk there and I'm an former LEO!

So for me getting out before it got worse was important. In the OPs case he might want to do that asap just for safety reasons and then decide about his FIRE-life afterward the kids are launched.

[Villanelle]

You sound like you dislike your life, you've followed a traditional and expected path and don't love where it's taken you but you can't exactly undo much of it even if you truly wanted to.  And maybe you are blaming others and turning your dissatisfaction and bitterness outside so as not to face your internal existential angst.  Otherwise, you are likely to make Big Decisions and feel better, only to have this same fog settle in when the excitement and disruption for the big change wears off.  Maybe your city, or Canada, isn't for you.  But unless you dig a bit deeper, I think it's clear you risk making these big changes and then regretting them when they don't really change your underlying malaise. 


Also, maybe you'd like your house more if you treated it for rats and termites.  I can only assume that's what you mean when you say "infestation", as surely that term wouldn't be used for human beings.

[kork]

Everyone is different, but we chose one of your options.  Specifically, we chose the "sell the house and move to a resort" option.  We have been here for about three years now.  We are living in a building that is probably 90% short-term rentals and we are among only a handful that live here full-time.  The place has all that you mentioned, like a gym, a pickleball court, a pool, (no waterfall, but a beach), etc.  We bought the place for cash and the HOA fee started at $600 per month, which includes everything except electricity.  However, since then the HOA fee has gone up to $1400 per month.  We have also had to pay some "special assessments".  But the building was completely renovated, so there is that.  It looks very nice, and lots of deferred maintenance was taken care of.  I don't want to say that the building looks "brand new," but it's pretty close.

Our original plan was to live here for 9 months out of the year and then rent it out for the summer season, (where rental rates are insane). We expected that the money we received from rentals in the summer would pay for all of our condo-related expenses.   We did that year 1, and everything worked just as we planned.  However, my wife doesn't want to rent it out anymore, so we have not done it the last 2 summers.  Anyway, despite all the additional expenses (and reduced revenue) I am actually enjoying living in a condo in a resort area.  A couple of random things:

--You mention not wanting to live like everything is all-inclusive.  We never dreamed we would live like that, but we did for at least a year.  We spent much, much more money than we did living comfortably in our old home that first year.  We got that out of our system though.

Random Thoughts:

-- I am pleasantly surprised at how quiet it is inside our condo despite being completely surrounded by families on vacation in all of the surrounding units.  By happenstance, it turns out that this building was specifically built to minimize noise levels.  It would not be good to be in a stick-built structure under these conditions.  We dodged a bullet there because while I was concerned about this issue when looking to buy, I really did not appreciate just how important this issue is.

--In our gluttonous first year of living here, we rarely used the amenities that surround us.  Once we calmed down from going out to eat so often and even doing "touristy" things around town, we use everything.  For instance, we now go out to the beach every morning.  Just today I anchored a cinder block to my floating lounge chair and sat out beyond the waves reading a book.  Shortly afterwards, I swam a few laps in the pool.  I use the gym 3-4 times a week.  I did none of this, ever, when I lived in my old home.   

--We really don't eat out much anymore.  We've tried all the places, and as you can imagine in a resort location, none of it is really worth the price.  Plus, if I do say so myself, we can just cook tastier food at home.  We also take the time to eat at the dinner table (with tablecloth and all the "fine dining" elements).  It is something we look forward to most nights, its cheap, and the view is incredible.

--It is unbelievably nice being freed up from maintaining the exterior of your house (and the landscaping, and cleaning your own pool, etc.).

In short, yes, our HOA fees have more than doubled, and we were hit with special assessments.  But we were financially prepared for that.  Whenever I start getting upset about all the extra expense, I remind myself that at any time we could pack up our stuff and move out for the summer like we did that first year.  The rental income (after taxes and management fees) would still pay for all of the expenses of this place, and then some.

So, I vote for "move to a resort." I could see you living the life that you envision.  You just might not be able to do it at the costs that you project!  So far, for us, it's still been worth it.  I'm not tired of it yet.

Thank you so much for this insight. With where you currently are, do you get to furnish your place as you choose?  the place we were looking at required no personalization and a purchase of their furniture package.

[Mustache Fatty]

We bought it already furnished.  We have pretty much lived in it "as is" since then, but there are no restrictions on what we can do inside the place.  Everyone's condo looks different inside.

[kork]

While I bristled strongly at the term "infestation" - especially since my mom was a war refugee who lost everything (including her whole family) and grew up in a refugee camp until an adult and eventually immigrated to Toronto - my former city also had changed drasticly for the worse due to homeless drug addicts and mentally ill too so I get it.

The problem in the city and nearby shopping areas to me was becoming very very bad. Plus I was next to nice city park with a small walking pass thru next to my house and my front yard and the park entrance came to be used as a place to use drugs, drug dealing, defecate, prostitute, pass out and encamp. So many break ins and assaults. So much trash and drug paraphernalia. Screaming and ranting all night long. I was living alone and was constantly afraid to leave my house due to break in. And this was in a nice expensive family neighborhood. It change A LOT in the 10 years I lived there so I finally moved. So I totally get where the OP is coming from. If I had kids I wouldn't want them living there and walking in the area to school or to the corner stores.  Heck I didn't want to walk there and I'm an former LEO!

So for me getting out before it got worse was important. In the OPs case he might want to do that asap just for safety reasons and then decide about his FIRE-life afterward the kids are launched.

From your story, I feel like we're in the same area. We moved back to our hometown 15 years ago and even back into our old neighbourhood where I grew up. We bought a beautiful home footsteps to the waterfront and across from a park. It was perfect... That is, until we found a used needle in our backyard. Actually, it was my 8 year old daughter at the time who walked up to me with it in her hand and asked what it was.  That was 8 years ago. That really put a spotlight on the growing issues of needles, especially in our own back yard.

And the issues amplified from there.  Another needle was found in the sand in the playground across the street, junkies started camping in the park all while the "do nothing do gooders" were crying "they're people too and deserve respect." We weren't about to spend the next 10 years trying to solve a problem that was growing into a national issue.

So with broken hearts, we moved just outside the city. But it was junkie free! Big house, big yard, neighbouring homes are owned by doctors and lawyers. There's almost ZERO rental units here and in one of the best public schools districts in the country.

And since then, the drug problem has spiralled out of control where we left (though, many cities large and small are exposed and vulnerabilities, it's not unique). But social media is villainizing anyone who points out the issue and says anything other than "these people need love and respect and safe injections sites." Those who suggest "wait a minute, let's stop feeding these people at the waterfront where they sit around and cook their meth in public, or inject and then throw their needles on the ground (or in the beach sand) when waiting for their food to be delivered" are considered horrible people.

But the newer issue that compounds it all is that a lot of the entry level housing in the city is being bought up by slumlords.

This is compounded because the local post secondary institution is attracting droves of international students and the inexpensive 3 bedroom homes which were once reserved as entry level housing has been bought up by international slumlords and is now housing a dozen students or more.

Also, maybe you'd like your house more if you treated it for rats and termites.  I can only assume that's what you mean when you say "infestation", as surely that term wouldn't be used for human beings.

It's funny you should mention that! Those very "dozen person occupied homes" I mentioned above are generating a tremendous amount of waste that doesn't get disposed of properly. City provided garbage collection cycle is every 2 weeks and it's limited to two bags of garbage unless you buy a tag. I can assure you that a dozen people in a single home generate more than a bag of trash every week. And so that garbage ends up in the backyard or even in the front yard. And you're right, that then attracts rats!

And most recently in the news, not only did the city start using combers nightly on the beaches to sweep up used needles left in the sand, but neighbouring towns have had to outlaw beach tents as our "fine newcomers to Canada" are defecating in the sand.

So more treasures for everyone to find! "Look mommy, someone left a chocolate bar in the sand!" "No, no, don't touch that, play with this needle instead!"

Anyways, I really don't want this thread to hone in on the social issues occurring. I can't spend my life energy trying to solve an issue that is largely unsolvable due to cultural differences. But what I can do is be flexible and less tied to a $1million+ asset that's exposed to these particular vulnerabilities.

And the current concern, as I mentioned, is that our smaller town (which is just outside of my hometown city) is set to grow 10X by new development in the upcoming couple of years, with which the first phase was 80% sold out to a particular subset of immigrants leading these issues and it's not uncommon to have 10+ people living in a 3 bedroom home. In this case, the caution lights go up and the spidey senses tingle, especially having teenage daughters (and their friends) that have been previously targeted.

Can we paint everyone with the same brush? Of course not. Judging people by race is ridiculous. It seriously is. But cultural differences are certainly something to take note of. I also don't support cultures that move into Canada that suppress women's rights or attack the LGBTQ+ community. And I'll stand my ground and push back on anyone who suggests that my daughters can only sit in the back seat of the car because they're girls. No, that's not the Canadian way.

Oh, and back to infestation, yes, rats are indeed a problem because of the trash as mentioned above! But not our home, we take care of our home and are respectful to our neighbours who equally, take care of their homes.

And while I can appreciate the thoughts that "maybe the root of all your issues is deeper than your home" I've been exploring that for years. I keep coming back to having a big home, with a big lot, with big expenses and big work while in my mind, I yearn to simplify which I believe is pretty on key with this forum.

But I've resigned to waiting until D15 finishes high school as to not uproot them unless something takes a very bad turn and requires us to relocate. All this to say, I like the notion of no longer being tied to a home that's exposed to these particular threats.

[kork]

We bought it already furnished.  We have pretty much lived in it "as is" since then, but there are no restrictions on what we can do inside the place.  Everyone's condo looks different inside.

Great to know, thank-you!

[Mustache Fatty]

Kork--

Have you asked your daughter how she would feel about moving out of that area?  I assume you have, but if you have not you might be surprised at her answer.  Our son was 15 when we moved.  We were shocked when he said he was perfectly fine moving when we asked him.  Fast forward to today, and he often mentions that moving to this resort town was the best decision we ever made.  (He is also enjoying all that the area has to offer and has made plenty of new friends).  If you happen to be in the situation where your oldest just graduated and your youngest is just starting high school, then you either have to move now or actually wait out the high school years.

(Note: We used to live in rural Alabama in a small town.  It was pretty great, but not much to do.  That said, to me, your set of circumstances seem to suggest a more pressing need to move right away than mine did.  Needles in your yard and on the beach?  No thanks).

[kork]

Yes, I've had the conversation with both of them. Both daughters, especially the youngest (15) do not want to move. Their friends, their social groups, etc.

We also tried vacationing to some different places with the intent to help open the girls eyes to different experiences. Rented a condo in Florida complete with jet-skiing, beachfront living, pools etc. D17 would be fine going. We tried a vacation to the US Midwest with all the various shows and fun activities.

D15 is very intent to stay and is not welcoming of the idea of uprooting.

[Villanelle]

Keep in mind that moving during high school can get very messy, and I'm not talking about socially.  If the new school has different requirements, your senior may end up in freshman world history, which feels pretty awful to most high schools.  Worse still, they could end up in summer school or struggling to graduate because they've missed prerequisites with no ability to catch up. 

Also, I moved a lot as a kid, and most of my friends now move a lot with kids (military).  Some kids do fine.  My sister did, for example.  Others really, really struggle.  I was in that camp.  When I was 7, it was fine.  When I was 12, it was awful and I did not thrive and was probably on a razor's edge from tipping over into some pretty awful things.  I would not take this only lightly at all. 

Vacationing with a jet ski has pretty much nothing to do with removing your kids from their social networks. 

While I bristled strongly at the term "infestation" - especially since my mom was a war refugee who lost everything (including her whole family) and grew up in a refugee camp until an adult and eventually immigrated to Toronto - my former city also had changed drasticly for the worse due to homeless drug addicts and mentally ill too so I get it.

The problem in the city and nearby shopping areas to me was becoming very very bad. Plus I was next to nice city park with a small walking pass thru next to my house and my front yard and the park entrance came to be used as a place to use drugs, drug dealing, defecate, prostitute, pass out and encamp. So many break ins and assaults. So much trash and drug paraphernalia. Screaming and ranting all night long. I was living alone and was constantly afraid to leave my house due to break in. And this was in a nice expensive family neighborhood. It change A LOT in the 10 years I lived there so I finally moved. So I totally get where the OP is coming from. If I had kids I wouldn't want them living there and walking in the area to school or to the corner stores.  Heck I didn't want to walk there and I'm an former LEO!

So for me getting out before it got worse was important. In the OPs case he might want to do that asap just for safety reasons and then decide about his FIRE-life afterward the kids are launched.

From your story, I feel like we're in the same area. We moved back to our hometown 15 years ago and even back into our old neighbourhood where I grew up. We bought a beautiful home footsteps to the waterfront and across from a park. It was perfect... That is, until we found a used needle in our backyard. Actually, it was my 8 year old daughter at the time who walked up to me with it in her hand and asked what it was.  That was 8 years ago. That really put a spotlight on the growing issues of needles, especially in our own back yard.

And the issues amplified from there.  Another needle was found in the sand in the playground across the street, junkies started camping in the park all while the "do nothing do gooders" were crying "they're people too and deserve respect." We weren't about to spend the next 10 years trying to solve a problem that was growing into a national issue.

So with broken hearts, we moved just outside the city. But it was junkie free! Big house, big yard, neighbouring homes are owned by doctors and lawyers. There's almost ZERO rental units here and in one of the best public schools districts in the country.

And since then, the drug problem has spiralled out of control where we left (though, many cities large and small are exposed and vulnerabilities, it's not unique). But social media is villainizing anyone who points out the issue and says anything other than "these people need love and respect and safe injections sites." Those who suggest "wait a minute, let's stop feeding these people at the waterfront where they sit around and cook their meth in public, or inject and then throw their needles on the ground (or in the beach sand) when waiting for their food to be delivered" are considered horrible people.

But the newer issue that compounds it all is that a lot of the entry level housing in the city is being bought up by slumlords.

This is compounded because the local post secondary institution is attracting droves of international students and the inexpensive 3 bedroom homes which were once reserved as entry level housing has been bought up by international slumlords and is now housing a dozen students or more.

Also, maybe you'd like your house more if you treated it for rats and termites.  I can only assume that's what you mean when you say "infestation", as surely that term wouldn't be used for human beings.

It's funny you should mention that! Those very "dozen person occupied homes" I mentioned above are generating a tremendous amount of waste that doesn't get disposed of properly. City provided garbage collection cycle is every 2 weeks and it's limited to two bags of garbage unless you buy a tag. I can assure you that a dozen people in a single home generate more than a bag of trash every week. And so that garbage ends up in the backyard or even in the front yard. And you're right, that then attracts rats!

And most recently in the news, not only did the city start using combers nightly on the beaches to sweep up used needles left in the sand, but neighbouring towns have had to outlaw beach tents as our "fine newcomers to Canada" are defecating in the sand.

So more treasures for everyone to find! "Look mommy, someone left a chocolate bar in the sand!" "No, no, don't touch that, play with this needle instead!"

Anyways, I really don't want this thread to hone in on the social issues occurring. I can't spend my life energy trying to solve an issue that is largely unsolvable due to cultural differences. But what I can do is be flexible and less tied to a $1million+ asset that's exposed to these particular vulnerabilities.

And the current concern, as I mentioned, is that our smaller town (which is just outside of my hometown city) is set to grow 10X by new development in the upcoming couple of years, with which the first phase was 80% sold out to a particular subset of immigrants leading these issues and it's not uncommon to have 10+ people living in a 3 bedroom home. In this case, the caution lights go up and the spidey senses tingle, especially having teenage daughters (and their friends) that have been previously targeted.

Can we paint everyone with the same brush? Of course not. Judging people by race is ridiculous. It seriously is. But cultural differences are certainly something to take note of. I also don't support cultures that move into Canada that suppress women's rights or attack the LGBTQ+ community. And I'll stand my ground and push back on anyone who suggests that my daughters can only sit in the back seat of the car because they're girls. No, that's not the Canadian way.

Oh, and back to infestation, yes, rats are indeed a problem because of the trash as mentioned above! But not our home, we take care of our home and are respectful to our neighbours who equally, take care of their homes.

And while I can appreciate the thoughts that "maybe the root of all your issues is deeper than your home" I've been exploring that for years. I keep coming back to having a big home, with a big lot, with big expenses and big work while in my mind, I yearn to simplify which I believe is pretty on key with this forum.

But I've resigned to waiting until D15 finishes high school as to not uproot them unless something takes a very bad turn and requires us to relocate. All this to say, I like the notion of no longer being tied to a home that's exposed to these particular threats.

If that was your takeaway to someone balking at referring to human beings as an infestation, I'm not sure what else to say.  Good luck on your decision and I hope that if you do decide to immigrate somewhere, you are given grace by the locals.   

[kork]

Vacationing with a jet ski has pretty much nothing to do with removing your kids from their social networks.

No, but it can broaden their view to a life outside their own. The beauty of vacations is that you leave the noise behind and relax. Sometimes, like myself, we see something in those vacations we'd like to make permanent which is precisely what this thread is about.

If that was your takeaway to someone balking at referring to human beings as an infestation, I'm not sure what else to say.  Good luck on your decision and I hope that if you do decide to immigrate somewhere, you are given grace by the locals.   

You're the one who implied that I should treat my home for rats. That highlighted an issue not in my home, but as a result of the "overcrowding" if that's your hangup.

But, because I'm curious, I went to ChatGPT 4.0 which is largely politically correct and has a number of safeguards and limits, and asked the simple question "Can humans infest a home?"

Chat GPT - "Humans themselves can't "infest" a home in the way pests like insects or rodents can. However, if you're referring to a situation where a home becomes overcrowded with people, or if there are squatters or unauthorized occupants, you might describe that as a "human infestation" in a metaphorical sense."

Me: "Would too many people in a house which leads to excess trash and rat problems not be an infestation?"

ChatGPT: "If a house is packed with too many people, leading to excess trash and attracting rats, it makes sense to call that an "infestation." When overcrowding leads to unsanitary conditions, it can cause problems similar to those you'd get with pests. It's not just about the number of people—it's about the impact on the environment inside the home."

Me: Is it fair to refer to a place which has negatively affected by the overcrowding as an infestation?

ChatGPT: Referring to a place negatively affected by overcrowding as an "infestation" is harsh and might be seen as dehumanizing. However, if the overcrowding leads to severe problems—like crime, unsanitary conditions, or strain on resources—it could feel appropriate to those experiencing it.

--

While I can appreciate your hangup, I'm experiencing it.

If you can't see this then I'm afraid we're too far apart and I also don't know what else to say.  Thank you for the best wishes and I wish the same for you.

[Morning Glory]

I've never seen anyone appeal to authority using Chat GPT. That's a new one.

I'm sorry your city is not dealing well with a large influx of people who are most likely younger and poorer than the existing population,  but I am quite sure the problems like property crime and lack of trash collection are not problems inherent to any one culture but instead a result of poverty and perhaps poor  management on the part of local government. I get that thr situation is a nuisance for you and you want to move, but please stop using that word.

Also I agree with Villanelle that the teen years are not a great time to move kids, especially if they are used to being able to get around on their own and do things in a city and you are looking at places that require driving everywhere.

[kork]

I've never seen anyone appeal to authority using Chat GPT. That's a new one.

I'm sorry your city is not dealing well with a large influx of people who are most likely younger and poorer than the existing population,  but I am quite sure the problems like property crime and lack of trash collection are not problems inherent to any one culture but instead a result of poverty and perhaps poor  management on the part of local government. I get that thr situation is a nuisance for you and you want to move, but please stop using that word.

Also I agree with Villanelle that the teen years are not a great time to move kids, especially if they are used to being able to get around on their own and do things in a city and you are looking at places that require driving everywhere.

I find ChatGPT and Claude specifically as an LLM to be invaluable for summarizing and generating dialogue from multiple perspectives, rather than relying on a single viewpoint. It captures the collective sentiment in real-time, cutting through the noise of SERPS.

That said, we each have our own opinions. The federal government has significantly increased immigration over the past three years, 3X as I understand it seemingly to secure votes for re-election. Our tone def dimwitted PM is historically unpopular (the least popular in history), a sentiment shared by both Canadians and immigrants alike. The promise of a better life in Canada has turned out to be a farce.

Provincial governments are left to manage the influx of people, especially around major airports, and there aren’t enough homes to accommodate everyone. We need to build something like 2 million homes and there's so much red tape around home building that builders are leaving. And even immigrants are getting shafted. Niagara Falls has seen a dramatic increase in temporary housing, from 87 hotel rooms to 3,000 for asylum seekers, placing a significant burden on taxpayers. Rather than focusing on housing (or maybe taking downtown Toronto commercial real-estate that's vacant due to Covid and incentivising the conversion to residential units) we're putting people up at the Sheraton (or whichever hotels are participating). This exacerbatess the supply and demand issue, making homeownership increasingly unaffordable.

Many young people today can’t manage a $6,000 monthly mortgage, $5,000 yearly property taxes, and skyrocketing utility costs.

On one hand, I should be pleased that my home’s value has increased for when I eventually sell. But it’s likely that the government will impose new taxes that could erode home values and worsen affordability issues.

Local governments are also grappling with these challenges. The education system, controlled by unions focused on increasing their membership, is enrolling more international students (who pay 3X for tuition fees). Unfortunately, this often means a heavy concentration of students from a single country, with varying ethics, beliefs, and sanitary standards to Canadian core values.

I left my advisory position at a local post-secondary institution after two terms. I was very frustrated the administration was indifferent to issues like student housing and sanitation, as long as tuition was flowing. This disregard is disgraceful.

The mess created by local governments, educational institutions, and the federal government—driven by political motives and enrolment growth extends beyond my city to many in Ontario. It’s impacting healthcare, education, and social services, leading to widespread dysfunction.

This situation isn’t just an inconvenience; it’s an erosion of core values and a decline in the standard of living for many.

Of course, there's varying opinions on the above. That how I see it from my vantage point. Other views may vary and to each their own.

[FINate]

OP, as much as I sympathize with your plight, it's painful to watch you dig in on your use of "infestation." This hill isn't worth dying on. You can just apologize for poor word choice and move on. Villanelle is absolutely correct, if you ever relocate you're going to find yourself in the position of newcomer to an area, so keep that in mind.

I still won't judge OP too harshly for poor word choice. I know I wasn't exactly seeing things clearly when I was in the thick of dealing with the stress of thefts and general decline of my neighborhood, a place where a substantial chunk of my net worth was invested. For me the way through was to see that the problem wasn't people, but rather the policies that put people really bad positions. I don't mean a simple left vs. right, but instead mundane nuts and bolts issues like disallowing sufficient housing, lack of funding/efficiency building shelters and services, and yes, even lack accountability for those refusing services.

Back on topic... OP you're not ready to uproot, but is there an option to move to a different neighborhood in the same general area? You may find that you can rent in an area that has a different dynamic. Even if this is more expensive than your current housing, you're not looking at too many years until D15 is an adult and you can then relocate, so it would be relatively short term.

[kork]

OP, as much as I sympathize with your plight, it's painful to watch you dig in on your use of "infestation." This hill isn't worth dying on. You can just apologize for poor word choice and move on. Villanelle is absolutely correct, if you ever relocate you're going to find yourself in the position of newcomer to an area, so keep that in mind.

I still won't judge OP too harshly for poor word choice. I know I wasn't exactly seeing things clearly when I was in the thick of dealing with the stress of thefts and general decline of my neighborhood, a place where a substantial chunk of my net worth was invested. For me the way through was to see that the problem wasn't people, but rather the policies that put people really bad positions. I don't mean a simple left vs. right, but instead mundane nuts and bolts issues like disallowing sufficient housing, lack of funding/efficiency building shelters and services, and yes, even lack accountability for those refusing services.

Back on topic... OP you're not ready to uproot, but is there an option to move to a different neighborhood in the same general area? You may find that you can rent in an area that has a different dynamic. Even if this is more expensive than your current housing, you're not looking at too many years until D15 is an adult and you can then relocate, so it would be relatively short term.

Fair enough. I'm sorry to those I've upset with my choice of wording. Let's move along.

Like I've said, I'm staying until D15 is done high school unless something really awful occurs. Before your last answer, I noted many of the things you mentioned and am very aware of the powers at play, and I've been involved in them and have observed them directly.

<Added> Rent in my area for a detached home starts at about $4000/month plus utilities. 2 bedroom basement apartments start at about $2k/month.

The girls are currently in the best school district and our neighbourhood is desirable. Moving back into the city (5 minutes away) is not something we're interested in doing for reasons already mentioned.

[scantee]

Kork, I think the reason you are getting some harsh responses here is because you have a long history, just on this website, of being deeply unhappy and looking for external causes (marrying an older woman, not partying enough when you were young, etc.) to explain your internal unrest.

Maybe you should still move! A content person in your situation might also want to move, however, they would put ideas into action OR find a way to make peace with their current situation until they could do that. People here have given you a number of options and you’ve rejected them all which gives the impression that you don’t really want to make a change you just want reaffirm how unhappy you are.

Wherever you go, there you are and all that. I’m sorry you’re suffering.

[aloevera1]

Reading this thread, I wonder whether there is anything you actually want to do. I think your living arrangement should support your desired lifestyle and not the other way around.

How do you want to live? What do you want to fill your days with? Look for housing options that enable that.

It would suck if you move to the "alternative living" cabin in the woods only to discover that days filled with splitting logs for firewood have 0 appeal for you.

[spartana]

Reading this thread, I wonder whether there is anything you actually want to do. I think your living arrangement should support your desired lifestyle and not the other way around.

How do you want to live? What do you want to fill your days with? Look for housing options that enable that.

It would suck if you move to the "alternative living" cabin in the woods only to discover that days filled with splitting logs for firewood have 0 appeal for you.

I'm wondering if his spouse feels the same about moving and, if so, what kind of location would she want? I'm in the process of doing "compromise move" now with BF/partner and unless you are fairly aligned with what you both want I imagine it could be hard to find a compromise. Will the OPs spouse want to move far from the kids? Or friends and other family? Would their dream be a resort life or a cabin in the woods? Full time travel? RV life? Etc. What's she onboard with OP?

[kork]

Kork, I think the reason you are getting some harsh responses here is because you have a long history, just on this website, of being deeply unhappy and looking for external causes (marrying an older woman, not partying enough when you were young, etc.) to explain your internal unrest.

Maybe you should still move! A content person in your situation might also want to move, however, they would put ideas into action OR find a way to make peace with their current situation until they could do that. People here have given you a number of options and you’ve rejected them all which gives the impression that you don’t really want to make a change you just want reaffirm how unhappy you are.

Wherever you go, there you are and all that. I’m sorry you’re suffering.

You're right about a number of things.

I’ve been dealing with a sense of nostalgia and discontent, stemming from an upbringing filled with abuse and a where the results didn't yield the level on contentment that I had hoped for. Rather, it was those who make irrational decision, blew up boats and were generally reckless that have plenty of stories to tell. My stories are filled with responsibility and wise decision making. That leaves a lot of empty room in the brain for regret.

But since the pandemic, those stories are being written.  Somewhat reckless stories without ruining my family or hurting others.

Lately, I’ve been okay—healthy, exercising, and enjoying life with friends and family, but the search for contentment continues, fully recognizing that a "monk" like place of happiness comes from within. But I'm not a monk. I'm not enlightened enough yet.

And as I move forward, I’m still struggling with the feeling that life isn’t as it should be and much of it feels like I'm in the wrong place. But I can't uproot my kids. In many ways, sure, I can look inward for the areas of discontent. And I have. Oh have I ever.

Like many others, I’m trying to keep my family together while managing my own mental health. This is my number one goal. I was much in a much more difficult place few years ago when I was deep into psychiatrist prescribed sedatives for type 2 bipolar disorder and anxiety.

I see others around me facing their own struggles. My brother is in mountains of debt from a reckless lifestyle filled with fun memories, but he's paying the price now. My sister-in-law just lost her home and my step-siblings are dealing with serious issues as a result of a shared upbringing (it's not just me). I just got off the phone an hour ago with a friend who just told me his wife is moving out and they're splitting time with their 13yo daughter.

It’s hard to know if what I’m feeling is just my normal or something that can be fixed.

I’ve tried advice from this forum, but certain things, like buying another home, don’t feel right. At least, not here for all the reasons cited before. It also doesn't feel right to uproot the kids. Talking about things helps, even if it appears to be paralysis. I'm planning my next step, carefully and I'm seeking guidance from those who have done so. But I'm doing so with care and without jeapordizing others, as I've always done.

[Dancin'Dog]

kork,
If my home became surrounded by junkies, needles, and trash I would move.  Sorry about DD2 wanting to remain with her friends, but it doesn't sound safe or emotionally healthy for your family to continue living where you are.  She may "hate" you for a while, but you'd hate yourself forever if something bad happened to your family. 


Would you want to live near where DD1 is going to college?  Depending on the size, college towns are often nice places to live.  They usually have good food, entertainment, sports, etc. 

[kork]

kork,
If my home became surrounded by junkies, needles, and trash I would move.  Sorry about DD2 wanting to remain with her friends, but it doesn't sound safe or emotionally healthy for your family to continue living where you are.  She may "hate" you for a while, but you'd hate yourself forever if something bad happened to your family. 


Would you want to live near where DD1 is going to college?  Depending on the size, college towns are often nice places to live.  They usually have good food, entertainment, sports, etc.

We did move 5 years ago to a community outside of the city. That's one thing that actually triggered much of my downfall as I was forced out of a home I loved in an area I loved and grew up in. I lived right across the street from where I had my first job. It was very comforting.

The community we're in is safe, currently. However, other local areas are being bought up by "overcrowding newcomers" and all the other local communities have all been affected in a negative way so far. Crime, vandalism, filth, trafficking and pest control, etc skyrockets when these homes become heavily occupied, which is the norm.

This is the potential future plan for my current community.

DD1 will be going to University in a year, conveniently 25 minutes away. They have the program she wants and I suspect she'll stay at home to avoid the $2k/month housing costs.  DD2 will graduate high school once DD1 graduated University (give or take a year).  DD2 will be likely be attending an Ivy League post secondary institution which will require her to move away.

Much can change in 3 years.

[Telecaster]

I love the idea of living on a resort but WITHOUT a hedonistic abundance of food and alcohol like all-inclusives. Having a community pool with a waterfall, workout out at the gym, playing pickle ball, or other activities and lazing back in a lawn chair and when I'm done, go back to a quiet, 2 bedroom condo/house without exorbitant condo fees.

Good luck with that one. 

[cpa cat]

The obvious answer is to move to a lower cost of living city in Canada once your daughter has graduated high school. The second obvious choice is to rent an apartment so that you reduce the chores and maintenance with homeownership. Renting also has the benefit of keeping you mobile in case you don’t like your new neighborhood.

It might be tempting to stay nearby when your daughter goes to university, but she will survive going to school in a different city/province - it’s not uncommon. In fact, if you broach the subject now, she might cast a wider net when she applies to universities she knows you’re not staying.

I think we sometimes get tunnel-vision and think the place we live is representative of our entire country. Canada is a big place with a wide variety of locations to live. If you put some thought and research into it, I’m sure you can find a city or town that works for you.

When I lived in Canada, I lived in Ottawa, Guelph, Toronto, and St John’s Newfoundland. No two cities were the same. The vibe and culture was different even amongst the three cities in Ontario, but extremely so between Newfoundland and Ontario.

[Freedomin5]

I think we sometimes get tunnel-vision and think the place we live is representative of our entire country. Canada is a big place with a wide variety of locations to live. If you put some thought and research into it, I’m sure you can find a city or town that works for you.

You mean Toronto is not the Centre of the Universe?

[SunnyDays]

I love the idea of living on a resort but WITHOUT a hedonistic abundance of food and alcohol like all-inclusives. Having a community pool with a waterfall, workout out at the gym, playing pickle ball, or other activities and lazing back in a lawn chair and when I'm done, go back to a quiet, 2 bedroom condo/house without exorbitant condo fees.

Good luck with that one. 

I actually know a place, a RV resort, where I have a trailer on a lake, that offers year round living.  There are various park model type homes available that are winterized.  There is a clubroom, with books, games etc and a pickleball court plus community garden lots in the summer as well as a bunch of activities, like an annual garage sale, July 1 fireworks and party, a live band concert and so on.  It's not in Ontario, but the small city that's 10 minutes away and where I live, is about as safe as you can get.  There are a few homeless people, but they are taken care of by an organization here and I have never heard of needles being found anywhere.  It's less than an hour drive to the big city with every possible amenity.  If you don't mind cold winters, it may be an option for you.  PM me if you want specifics.

[Laura33]

You have 3 years to decide.  Cool.  Spend that time researching, investigating options that sound interesting, planning.  And of course talking with your wife to make sure you're on the same page.

When the youngest is off to college, try things out on a temporary basis.  You don't want to toss out your entire life only to discover that your dissatisfaction was due to something else entirely.  Stay a few months in a resort community.  Live in a cottage on a lake.  Rent an RV for a few months.  Sublease a house in a smaller-sized city and/or different area/climate.  Slow travel through a part of the world you've never seen before.  See what things fit you and what don't -- what combination of location, people, hobbies, chores, amenities, weather, nearness to family, etc. seem to suit you best.

Once you're moving to a situation that you have decided is a great fit for your family, and not away from a situation that no longer suits, then you'll be ready to make a longer-term commitment to that location/lifestyle.  And if that ends up not working either, try something else.

Also, recognize that situations and people change.  What suits you 3 years from now may not suit you 10 years from now.  That's ok -- heck, it's totally normal.  Another plus for renting and trying things out short-term, while all those other pieces of your life remain in motion.