Author Topic: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....  (Read 2850 times)

NorCal

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Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« on: September 19, 2021, 08:50:15 AM »
We're really getting serious about going down to a one car family.  As with all decisions, it's hard to finally pull the trigger.

I'm mostly writing this post to put my thoughts in order and to see if this plan makes sense at the end of the day.

My wife's job is now back in-person 4x days a week.  She's been experimenting with the commute, and right now she's biking 1.5 miles to the train station and taking the train into the office.  She has to drive to a remote office 2-3 times per month.  The biggest hurdles so far are logistical things like her wardrobe.  She has not yet had to deal with this arrangement in inclement weather.

I'm a Stay-at-home-dad currently.  I use the car to get the kids (7 and 4) to school and run errands.  I will likely go do something for work in the near future, but it would likely be something like active real-estate investing or remote consulting work.

The idea is to sell our older car (2008 Lexus RX400h with ~80k miles) and purchase 2 e-bikes.  One e-bike would be a regular commuter bike to get my wife to the train station.  She would occasionally ride all the way to the office (9 miles) if she has the time.  It would also be used for general errands on the weekends.  She's looking at the REI CTY e2.1 bike, but hasn't test-ridden anything yet.

I'd buy a cargo e-bike for myself which I could use to get the kids to school and run most errands with.  I'd still use my regular bike if the kids weren't coming with me.  I'm looking at the RadWagon with two sets of the small handlebars.  The RadWagon seems to be a significantly better value than any other cargo bike on the market, and I feel I might be missing something compared with the more expensive options.  I'm also worried that I'm over-buying somewhat.  My 7 year old enjoys biking and can keep up on the shorter trips, so she'd only be a passenger for longer trips or when we're running late for school in the morning.  She'll pretty rapidly outgrow the need to be a passenger at all.

The mostly solvable concerns that have prevented me from taking action so far:

1. Inclement weather:  We live in Denver, so unpleasant weather is a thing.  I can drive the kids to school and drop my wife off at the train station most days, so I think this is covered.  It would just require a little more logistics planning.  My wife will also work from home on the true snow-days. 

2. Rare-occasion car conflicts:  There are days where we both have something scheduled that requires the car.  This doesn't happen often, but could cause a real conflict when it does.  It would also be more challenging when our remaining car is in the shop for any reason.

3. Camping: The car we'd sell is the car we use to go camping.  Our remaining car (2014 Mazda6) doesn't have the cargo room to support four people camping.  I've tried.  We are at the point that the family is really enjoying summer camping trips, and we'd likely miss out on some of that.  I realize the rational thing to do is to rent a bigger car when needed, but I'm skeptical that I'd follow through on that.

4. New car:  I'm currently fighting the desire to buy a fancy new overpriced facepunch worthy electric car.  I'm winning this battle at the moment, but I worry that only having one car will give me another rationalization for buying something I don't need.  This whole experiment will be a big money-loser if I end up talking myself into this ridiculous purchase.  I only have one car, so I can spend more to buy one I really really like, right?

5. If it doesn't work out:  If this whole thing doesn't work out, it would probably be decided pretty rapidly.  It would be one or two entirely disastrous days with mega-marital disputes.  In normal times, this could be resolved by going and purchasing a car on short notice.  These aren't normal times and limited car-availability is a thing for the near future.  We would likely end with a sub-optimal purchase at an inflated price.  This is particularly true since we'd very much like for our next car to be electric.

What would you do?

ixtap

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2021, 09:13:34 AM »
The main issue with being a one car family is communication. DH literally went from depositing the money from the sale if his car in the bank to making an appointment that he didn't tell me about until the day of. It has gotten much better since then.

We have found that conflicts can often be resolved with a little flexibility. Could she drop the kids off at school on frigid morning and go into work with the car? Or could you drop her off at the train station and pick her up on the worst days?

iluvzbeach

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2021, 11:07:15 AM »
We went to a one-car situation when we moved from Texas to Oregon.  It worked out very well for us, but we don't have children and I work from home.  DH is retired.  If I were in your shoes and had a 2008 paid for car with low miles (plus lived in CO and had a family), I'd likely hang on to that car.  You mentioned it's the one you use to go camping, so that's something you'd probably miss out on.  The cost of continuing ownership at this point is probably pretty low, it sounds like a reliable vehicle and it'd cost you so much more to replace it with a comparable vehicle.  Not to mention the temptation to splurge on that expensive EV.

If you really think you want to transition to a one-car HH, why not try to use only one vehicle at a time for a defined period (i.e. six months) and if that works out without too much trouble, then reconsider getting rid of one of the cars (perhaps the newer one that you don't use for camping.)

In full transparency, we have a garage full of motorcycles & DH has picked up a small car for driving around in the nearby mountains, but we still have just one everyday driver.

darkadams00

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2021, 11:38:46 AM »
Requirements that became etched in stone over time for us. We went to a 1-car HH over a decade ago.

1) Complete buy-in by both partners—Too many opportunities for this to get sparky even when you’re on the same page. Disastrous if a “compliant” party feels taken advantage of when a schedule conflict leads to his/her having to make a sacrifice/compromise, again.

2) Flexibility - Driving 2 cars is the default. Establishing a new normal takes conscious effort. And that effort will be challenged by deadlines, weather, items to haul, not feeling like a bike ride, etc. Challenges will arise more frequently at first, when you have the least experience and the fewest coping skills. Ten years later, the same situations won’t even be challenging. But the road to get there means everyone will have to be flexible—seeking the most optimal path for the family, not the most optimal path for one individual.

3) The car you keep might not be the most efficient, but it should meet the widest range of needs for your family. For us, that meant ample seating, cargo room, overhead racking (tandem bike), teardrop camper towing, rear hitch rack (again, bikes), and the ability to hit the mountains in the snow. So the vehicle we landed on was the Outback. Our one car hauls building supplies, takes us on vacations, carries larger items, etc as needed in a variety of configurations. Not as efficient as some other cars on a week-to-week basis, but that one car does meet 99% of our car needs. We also use bikes, Uber, Amtrak, and rentals as needed. This approach has still saved us thousands in the first decade. And our life is richer physically and mentally as a result.

dividend

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2021, 12:17:10 PM »
Is there a reason you couldn't keep the car you use for camping and sell the other?  Or sell both of them and get one that would truly do everything you need?   I just did a cursory look, and you could probably get at least $23k out of your 2 vehicles and then trade sideways into a late-ish model used Subaru Outback (I picked that because I have several friends with kids in Colorado who love theirs) for around $20k.  Just a thought - you're not tied to your one car being one of the cars you currently own.

K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2021, 01:01:02 PM »
We're a one car family now, and had several one car periods while we were raising our kids.

One thing that made it feasible was my being home based and DH being able to to commute via bicycle almost every workday.  If it was raining I could drop him off and pick him up, as his office is close to the house.  If it was wet but not raining he often chose to walk so he wouldn't get mud splashed up on his pants.

Giving it a trial period without using the second car is a good idea -- we did that.  One time it worked and we did another couple of years with one car.  One time it didn't, but we changed up our vehicles to better suit our needs.

Is your wife planning to leave an e-bike at the train station?  Does she need an e-bike to go 1.5 miles?  If the weather is inclement could you drop her off / pick her up from the train station?  It sounds so close -- I just don't see the point of the e-bike for this use, and the e-bike would be a theft risk if she leaves it at the station and a heavy PIA if she has to get it on and off the train twice a day.  What it really sounds like here is your wife only needs a vehicle when she has to drive to the remote office 2-3 times a month, so you need a solid system for getting her to and from the train station -- the very close train station.  With weather coming, the e-bike won't be as feasible anyway.

How far away is the school?  Could you arrange to do carpool so someone else drives your kids to and from school on the days your wife truly needs the car?  Could you walk two and from when the weather is amenable?

Plan your errands for times you have the car -- easy peasy.  Or use some services.  I sometimes use grocery delivery now because I know it's far less expensive than having that second car.

You should keep the car that the most useful to you in all situations, and it doesn't sound like the Mazda6 is it.  Keep the Lexus because you can camp in it.  You can also probably tow something light if you need to.

As far as e-bikes, it doesn't sound like they are a need to make one car living work, since your wife only needs the car a few times a month.  Of course, she'll want it for errands, appointments, gatherings with friends, etc. but you can plan all that out.  The e-bikes sound more like a recreational want, not an actual need.  I think you're maybe seeing them as a car replacement, but they really aren't in this situation.

We're back to a a one car family (just the two of us now) and that one car is a campervan, so we're mindful of when we take it out and try to minimize the short trips we know we could do by foot or bike.  It really just takes getting used to the idea that you can't jump in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want.  Once you get past that hurdle it's pretty easy.  You learn to live a more local life.  If you're 1.5 miles from the train station then you're probably also really close to other amenities like shopping and restaurants.  By age 3 our kids could walk a full mile, and by 4 it was twice that.  And at 3, if we walked 3/4 mile to the bookstore we could also walk the 3/4 mile back home after story time, since they had rested.  I mean them walking, not using a stroller.  Everyone in the family benefits :)


scottnews

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2021, 01:12:54 PM »
We are in a pretty similar situation, one car, 3 person family, go camping, use a RadWagon.   We’ve been one car for 2.5 years now. 

I beat the heck out of that RadWagon.   It will probably last longer than I want it to.  The lack of torque assist bugs me.  When the weather is bad, DW picks up our boy from the YMCA.   Bad weather for us means temps <20 Fahrenheit or down-pouring.  Bad weather also means he spends an extra 90 minutes at the Y waiting for DW.  Our boy, who is 10, loves the ebike.    He talks about it to everyone.  I bike everywhere.   Ebike in the winter with spiked tires and pedal bike when there isn’t ice on the ground.

DW’s job is flexible, so she can pick up the boy if there if he gets sick, injured, etc ...

Weather means keeping a spare set of clothes at work and a good set of panniers to bring clothes to work.

The camping part is hard for us.  Our car is a Prius C.  In a couple years we will probably get a small truck, Ford Maverick, to make camping easier.   We’ll be FIRED a year after that, so traveling a lot more.   Renting a cabin makes it easier than bring a 9x12 canvas tent.   Most of our gear is back packing orientated to save space.

It helps that DW is really on board with this.  We were going back and forth on keeping a small car plus a camper van or just a small truck that will do it all.   She was pretty insistent on one vehicle.  She is right!

LadyMuMu

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2021, 03:04:47 PM »
You've gotten some great advice already. Here's my take:

We've been single car family of 4 for about 10 years now. It's more a mindset than anything else. Start looking for all the ways you can reduce car usage: bus/carpool for kids to school, grocery delivery, combine errands, walk rather than ride, etc. Also, don't be shy about asking for rides and/or offering rides when using your car. Now that our kids are teens, they can also walk, ride bikes, or use public transit alone with ease having done it for years with Mom and Dad along.

For reasons already mentioned, you may be overthinking the bikes. Do you really need two new ones and e-bikes at that? Or are you perhaps falling into that "purchase a new lifestyle" trap where it feels like you have to buy fun new equipment to make a shift? Fancy bikes aren't the best to leave locked up outdoors all day long. I loved my Yuba Mundo back when we first transitioned, but we really only got serious use out of it for 2 years before the kids were able to cycle on their own. In retrospect, a trail-a-bike and a baby seat would have been sufficient.

DH and I each go 1.5 miles into work--about 60% walk, 35% bike, 5% drive/catch a ride. We're in the midwest, so there are a few days where the weather gets a little challenging but decent walking shoes/boots, hat, waterproof walking pants, and coat do the trick.

You can always rent a car for those rare needs when you just need a second vehicle--we end up doing that once or twice a year. Often DH's work will pay for it if it's to attend a conference or something.

JJ-

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2021, 03:16:26 PM »
DW and I are a one car house for 10 years and still are with 2 kids, 1.5 and 4. We've definitely planned our lives around it. DW works from home. Non covid I'm 2 miles from the office. Kids' school is a 7 min drive. We also live in Denver.

Question. Does your wife already bike? This could be two major lifestyle changes with one decision and hard to get into.

One of the things I'll mention about the climate is that mornings are great for biking generally. Rain and storms happen in the afternoon.

Winter biking for us is not really a question of temperature but road condition. Is it safe to bike? As in, are the roads icy?

For a family trying to go down to one car, the winter is not when I'd suggest diving in, especially with kids. They are a bit less resilient in cold weather than somebody biking and generating heat.

An e bike is not needed for a 1.5 mi commute even with hills. Get correct gearing for the ride. Also, make sure whatever bike your wife gets has spots for fenders and maybe racks.

Think about whether you can add to your day dropping your wife off or picking up. It may be rough with school schedule.

As others have mentioned, communication is important. If you only have one car and both need it, come up with options. For us, it's whoever does not have kids takes an Uber. This happens once every 3-4 months. If we need to split up for whatever reason with kids, we have an easy to transport car seat that we fly with that we use or put the second kid in the trailer. Or we don't leave the house. Or we have things delivered. Covid has been great for that last one.

Park the car, buy what you think you need to make it happen bike wise (trailers, seats, even new bikes if you must), and ease into it. Really ask yourself who do you think is it more important to have the car? If you think it is your wife, spend two weeks with your car parked and you on bike. If you think it is you, first ask your wife if she agrees to do the same 2 week test. Cars are definitely more convenient for several reasons when you're tired or the weather is bad. And when that car is taken from you, you may feel resentment if you're both not on the same page.

How far is the school trip?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 03:19:17 PM by JJ- »

ixtap

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2021, 04:16:23 PM »
My advice is the opposite of others. Sell the car. If it is frustrating, you can buy another car, but inertia will be in favor of making do.

NorCal

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2021, 04:44:11 PM »
Thank you everyone for the advice!  It's great to hear from others that have gone down a similar path. 

A lot of great points have been brought up.  I think we have a lot of those covered, even if I didn't articulate them in my first post:

1. I think we're both solidly onboard with the plan as a couple.  I originally had the idea years ago, and my wife was skeptical.  My wife then started asking about getting rid of the car earlier this year, and this time I was the one who wasn't ready to commit.  I don't think we have any ground to blame the other person since we've both been the primary driver of the idea at various points,

2. It is true that the e-bike is a want and not a need.  I think the cargo bike for the kids is closer to a need, as that would take care of 70%+ of the potential conflict points over who gets the car at a specific time.  My wife's current bike is functional, but it's a $300 Wal-mart type bike from 20+ years ago.  She would want an upgrade if she's biking every day, even if it's not an e-bike.  She rented a bike locker at the train station.

3.  It's true that the Lexus is better sized for our current needs than the Mazda, but the Mazda has a lot more life left on it.  If we were to get rid of the Mazda for "the right car for our needs", it would probably mean we would get rid of both cars for something newer.  The Lexus has had some issues recently.  While it's not going to die imminently, we are consistently spending a $1-2k/yr in fixes on it, while maintenance on the Mazda has been negligible.  Trading them both in for something that's a better fit has been discussed, and we change our minds on this topic every three days.

4. School is only about a mile away and is an easy ride.  My oldest enjoys the bike ride to school.  My youngest hasn't expressed any interest in getting rid of training wheels, so it will be a year or two before she's ready.

5. We've largely been doing this routine for the last month, with me taking the car to drop the kids off, and my wife riding to the train station.  There's only been three days where we both used the cars, and two of those would have been solvable by other means.  We've been pleasantly surprised at how many days it has worked.  Although the nice weather did help.

6. The financial impact of this decision is negligible compared to both our income and net worth.  Even trading in both cars for that fancy new overpriced electric car wouldn't materially change our financial picture (which is part of the reason I'm fighting the justification for buying it).

Morning Glory

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2021, 04:58:05 PM »
My advice is the opposite of others. Sell the car. If it is frustrating, you can buy another car, but inertia will be in favor of making do.

This is what we did. We're on month 3 of our one-car family experiment and it's been ok so far. We sold three beaters and bought a Subaru Forester.  Husband is a SAHP and I can bike or take public transport to work most days.  I have to drive out of town one day per week but I have some flexibility of which day it is. Kids ride the bus to school. We have a couple grocery stores and a Target within easy walking distance too.

OP, don't they have school buses where you live?- edit-never mind, I saw you're only a mile away so you probably don't get a bus.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 05:42:18 PM by Morning Glory »

Weisass

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2021, 05:06:58 PM »
Thank you everyone for the advice!  It's great to hear from others that have gone down a similar path. 

A lot of great points have been brought up.  I think we have a lot of those covered, even if I didn't articulate them in my first post:

1. I think we're both solidly onboard with the plan as a couple.  I originally had the idea years ago, and my wife was skeptical.  My wife then started asking about getting rid of the car earlier this year, and this time I was the one who wasn't ready to commit.  I don't think we have any ground to blame the other person since we've both been the primary driver of the idea at various points,

2. It is true that the e-bike is a want and not a need.  I think the cargo bike for the kids is closer to a need, as that would take care of 70%+ of the potential conflict points over who gets the car at a specific time.  My wife's current bike is functional, but it's a $300 Wal-mart type bike from 20+ years ago.  She would want an upgrade if she's biking every day, even if it's not an e-bike.  She rented a bike locker at the train station.

3.  It's true that the Lexus is better sized for our current needs than the Mazda, but the Mazda has a lot more life left on it.  If we were to get rid of the Mazda for "the right car for our needs", it would probably mean we would get rid of both cars for something newer.  The Lexus has had some issues recently.  While it's not going to die imminently, we are consistently spending a $1-2k/yr in fixes on it, while maintenance on the Mazda has been negligible.  Trading them both in for something that's a better fit has been discussed, and we change our minds on this topic every three days.

4. School is only about a mile away and is an easy ride.  My oldest enjoys the bike ride to school.  My youngest hasn't expressed any interest in getting rid of training wheels, so it will be a year or two before she's ready.

5. We've largely been doing this routine for the last month, with me taking the car to drop the kids off, and my wife riding to the train station.  There's only been three days where we both used the cars, and two of those would have been solvable by other means.  We've been pleasantly surprised at how many days it has worked.  Although the nice weather did help.

6. The financial impact of this decision is negligible compared to both our income and net worth.  Even trading in both cars for that fancy new overpriced electric car wouldn't materially change our financial picture (which is part of the reason I'm fighting the justification for buying it).

Are you planning more kids? Because if you aren’t a cargo bike may be overkill hjust to get  you through a couple years. I say this as someone with four kids who uses my cargo bike daily, but it replaced a family car, and two of our kids still can’t ride their own bikes (we have had our cargo bike for four years).

A cargo bike is great if you are gonna use it, but for a temporary short commute like you are describing I might suggest a trailer, honestly. And you can buy it used if you are feeling thrifty, and sell it for what you got it for (or at least, that is what we did before committing to the cargo bike).

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2021, 09:19:44 PM »
On the thought of buying a single capable EV to replace two cars -- realize you're looking at months of lead time. If you want an EV with range that can road trip, you're pretty much looking at the Teslas, Mach E, and ID.4. You *might* get away with the Kona but I'd be suspicious its charging speed is too low. The Bolt, Leaf, i3, and the whole pile of EV compliance cars recharge too slow to make road tripping practical (also, they tend to be small, a problem for the Kona too).

CrabbitDutchie

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2021, 02:22:36 AM »
Another vote for just sell 1 of the cars. Immediately. If you later need to sell the other too to get something more suitable for all 365 days of the year rather than something that works for 350 I'd recommend a dig through MMMs blog posts on the topic.

With the additional spending you're proposing it honestly sounds like you're trying to make the jump from 2 car to no cars in a place where cycling is awful and you have to deal with great distances.

For 1.5 miles to the train station and 1mile to school you don't need e-bikes. Heck, you don't even need a bike.
For school get a bike seat for the youngest and start cycling now, or just walk. No more taking the car to school and using running late as an excuse.

For errands round town get some panniers. I can easily carry home 2 weeks of food shopping for 2 people on my bike. The odd bigger stock up, well, you still have a car don't you?

Disclaimer: I'm Dutch, so am completely flummoxed by the perceived difficulties.

Metalcat

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2021, 06:23:51 AM »
Do taxis and Ubers not exist where you live?

These solve literally all of our one-car scheduling conflicts on the rare occasions that they happen.

I think you are dramatically over thinking this, and over planning it. Just sell one car and see how you adjust. Buy a used trailer for your bike and see if that's enough or if you end up having need for a full on cargo bike. Drive the Mazda for awhile because it's a shit time to buy a car anyway, plus isn't camping season over for this year? Could you not consider a roof storage container for camping as well? Or even a small trailer, which would allow you to always buy smaller cars?

As I said, you are ridiculously over thinking this. Try things out, then identify problems, and then come up with solutions. You don't need to perfectly figure out everything in advance. It's not necessary and it will hold you back from success.

Right now is the perfect time to sell a used car that you don't really need, so get that done now and deal with the rest later, when you need to.

boarder42

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2021, 06:52:56 AM »
we were a one car family for a full year from 3/2020 tiil 3/2021 since we cancelled insurance on one car.  While we were both working from this was easy.  My wife has since retired and I will at the end of the year.  We are debating on going back to one car and possibly 1.5 cars as my parents live 2 blocks away and there is rarely a time we all need a car.  I'm pretty confident we'll sell or trade both cars in when i get my new F150 lightning in a few months.  Never thought i'd buy a new car but the 12.5k credit and the EE nerd in me really wants an EV truck. So since we're FI i'll splurge

ericrugiero

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2021, 07:43:21 AM »
This is a good time to sell a car.  Used car prices have increased dramatically https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/ but I (and many others) expect them to drop again after the supply of new cars comes back to normal. 

It sounds like this is a lifestyle change that you and your wife both need to be embrace for it to be successful.  If you both want this and are willing to accept the extra coordination the change will require it sounds very doable for your family.  Jump in with both feet by selling the Lexus. 

Roof racks and/or a trailer hitch with a hitch mounted cargo carrier will add significant flexibility to your Mazda. 

roomtempmayo

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2021, 08:19:06 AM »
@NorCal you're anticipating the issues you'll likely face.

We've mostly been a one car household over the past three or four years.  98% of the time it's great.

It's the occasional one-offs that get you, and you'll likely need a reliable backup beyond your bike.

That can be reliable public transit you're willing to use with your kids.  Or Uber.  Or a car share program.  Or renting a car when you hit an unusual week where you need two cars.

You probably don't need two cars every day, but there will be the occasional day where you'll wish for a second car.  If you have a plan for those days, it can go just fine.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 10:33:07 AM by caleb »

SimpleCycle

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2021, 08:45:39 AM »
We've always been a one car family and so there was no plunge to take.  We are in a nearly identical situation - kids 4 and 6, and one SAH parent. We solve the occasional car conflict with Lyft for whoever doesn't have the kids, but they are very very rare between our bike and public transit situation.  A $60 Lyft (the most we've ever paid) is still cheaper than a second car!

I think you should sell the car and adapt your transportation situation as needed.  My kids are very close in age to yours, and we do have a cargo bike, mostly because neither kid is a confident rider at this point and it makes life much, much easier.  But there are a LOT of options for getting kids on bikes that you are overlooking.  We know a full time biking family with a 6 year old who only use a front seat like the Kids Ride Shotgun seat.  They have one on each parent's bike and it's their full time transportation.  You could do that for the 4 year old and have your 7 year old ride, with something like the Shotgun Tow Rope as a backup.  Or you could outfit your bike with a good rear rack seat for older kids, and a shotgun seat in the front, and put them both on a regular bike.  Something like this: https://orbisify.com/product/child-bike-back-seat-with-handle-armrest-and-footrest/  Or a front seat plus a trail a bike, or a trailer (that attaches to the rear dropouts) plus a rear seat for the older one.

If you really want to do the cargo bike, the RadWagon is a very good value.  Having recently been to Denver I'd say e-assist is a very good option to have.  We have a Yuba Kombi, which is another more budget priced option, but over 300 lbs of riders (me and the kids) plus a 60 lb bike is quite a workout!

Re: inclement weather - we bike except when there is "active" snow and ice, meaning conditions that make me worried I'd wipe out on the bike.  For us this means we miss a few days a year, and some of those are snow days anyway.  This means having the right clothing.  In the winter the kids wear snowpants, both for protection from slush/snow/whatever and also to keep them warm.  For rain, we use a waterproof blanket around their legs and rain coats, although we have considered buying actual rain pants but just haven't yet.  Cold is actually a much bigger problem on the bike than I anticipated for the kids, because they are not pedaling and working up body heat.  We got skullcap style hats that cover their ears for under their helmets, and they have big insulated mittens that pull up into their coat sleeve openings to keep the wind off their hands/wrists.  The also have wool socks that we pull up over their pants so their ankles don't get cold.  This was an iterative process of the kids crying because they were cold, me adding more clothing, them still crying, me adding more clothing, etc.  When in doubt, bundle more not less, and save yourself the trauma of crying kids.

Re: camping, see this post: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/  We take our family camping regularly in a Honda Fit, so it can definitely be done!  We have a car top cargo bag that carries most of our gear, and anything that's not appropriate for the cargo bag (mostly the camp stove and food) goes in the trunk.

If you're not quite ready to take the plunge, keep a journal of all your transportation for a few weeks to spot which would have been problematic without the car.  I think you'll be surprised how easily you are able to adapt your routines to account for the lack of a car.  Or garage the car for a few weeks using the new plan.  The bikes and seats have good resale for whatever option you decide.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2021, 12:16:18 PM »
Thanks for the advice everyone!

We will probably move forward with this, and it is encouraging to see so many other that have.

I didn't intend for the discussion to get so focused on the bikes.  We already have a trailer, and do use it on occasion.  This does suit most of our needs, but we are actively looking at things like the cargo bike that would reduce friction in the process.  I'm confident in our ability to experiment and figure out the details.

A roof rack for the car is a good idea.  I will look into that to see what fits, and if it will be enough to get us camping.  It may require a combination of that with some smaller gear.

Uber/Lyft are on the list as well.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2021, 12:21:26 PM »
Thanks for the advice everyone!

We will probably move forward with this, and it is encouraging to see so many other that have.

I didn't intend for the discussion to get so focused on the bikes.  We already have a trailer, and do use it on occasion.  This does suit most of our needs, but we are actively looking at things like the cargo bike that would reduce friction in the process.  I'm confident in our ability to experiment and figure out the details.

A roof rack for the car is a good idea.  I will look into that to see what fits, and if it will be enough to get us camping.  It may require a combination of that with some smaller gear.

Uber/Lyft are on the list as well.

I would expect a cargo bike to be more burdensome - most of them are H.E.A.V.Y.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2021, 12:52:31 PM »
I'd go the opposite way and say how much are you really saving by going down to one car? $150 a month for a car that only gets used when needed?  That's a small price to pay imo for a very nice convenience. But if biking in the rain and snow and buying evokes and trailers is worth it to you then go for it. I'm pretty hard-core Mustachian but my wanting to deal with bs for minor savings is fleeting.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2021, 02:34:06 PM »
I'd go the opposite way and say how much are you really saving by going down to one car? $150 a month for a car that only gets used when needed?  That's a small price to pay imo for a very nice convenience. But if biking in the rain and snow and buying evokes and trailers is worth it to you then go for it. I'm pretty hard-core Mustachian but my wanting to deal with bs for minor savings is fleeting.
You make a good point!  My answer was based on my experience where I live, and the bigger weather challenge for us is heat!  $150 per month for a car to keep everyone out of the rain and snow sounds like a bargain!

We're currently down to one vehicle (campervan) for the two of us, as we sent the Mazda3 hatchback to university with our son.  This decision was based on the insane price on new and used vehicles right now.  I've already missed having the little car, which is far easier for me to drive.  DH brought up getting e-bikes, and I just don't want another one -- I had one, didn't use it enough, my youngest son used it until the pandemic started, then we sold the e-bike.  I'd rather walk, and if it's blazing hot I'd rather drive.

With a young driver on the insurance policy it averages out to about $150 per month for registration and insurance.  We've spent $360 on maintenance over the past 32 months, and rarely use more than one tank of car per month, so I'd day it costs us about $200 to own.  The 36 month maintenance will cost a little more, but we're also spending less on gas now, and the insurance and registration go down every year.  There was a time where that $200 a month would have helped us reach our goals more quickly, but that's not true any longer.  Come summer 2022 we may help our son buy a used car if the prices have come down, so I can have the Mazda back.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2021, 02:55:11 PM »
Honestly, with a paid for older car, I’d just drop the insurance down to the basics and keep the car and drive it twice/month. It’s cheaper than buying an electric cargo bike. Uber/Lyft is kind of a pain if you have to wrestle car seats.

We are currently a household of 5 adults and a kid, and two cars is plenty.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2021, 07:31:55 PM »
Thanks for the advice everyone!

We will probably move forward with this, and it is encouraging to see so many other that have.

I didn't intend for the discussion to get so focused on the bikes.  We already have a trailer, and do use it on occasion.  This does suit most of our needs, but we are actively looking at things like the cargo bike that would reduce friction in the process.  I'm confident in our ability to experiment and figure out the details.

A roof rack for the car is a good idea.  I will look into that to see what fits, and if it will be enough to get us camping.  It may require a combination of that with some smaller gear.

Uber/Lyft are on the list as well.

I would expect a cargo bike to be more burdensome - most of them are H.E.A.V.Y.

YEA. they are pretty heavy. Or at least, the bucket ones are.  My tern mid tail is pretty light, though.

Arbitrage

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2021, 08:51:36 AM »
I would echo the roof rack/cargo box idea to solve your camping woes.  Our box fits basically all of the camping gear, leaving the inside of the car (trunk, in your case) for clothing and such.  You could do a rear cargo box as well, though you might need to install a hitch. 

We've been a single-car family of 4 for about 7 months now.  With both of us working from home, it's not that difficult.  Our biggest challenge is that we live about halfway up a pretty steep hill.  It's not bad to walk up, usually not too bad to e-bike up (except when towing a large load like I occasionally do), but a definite challenge on a regular bike.  Kids and wife wouldn't be able to bike up it (yet).  My attempts to convince them that we can actually walk places at times are not yet finding any takers.

Still, with no regular commutes, it's not been hard to just communicate our car use.  From my standpoint, that usually works out to planning my kayak outings around my wife's schedule, since I e-bike most of the rest of the time.  We'll see if things get difficult once we have the kids involved in more activities, as COVID is still keeping us from planning too much on that front.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2021, 07:08:22 PM »
We have 4 young kids and one car, and have almost never found it to be a problem. Last week it wouldn't start when I needed to pick the kids up from school, that was a pain, but my neighbor offered to drive us. On occasion we have borrowed a car from my in-laws, other times my husband bikes, or we use the bus, or the electric scooters, and sometimes Uber. Often we walk. Mostly we just check in with each other about our plans so the person with time-sensitive appts etc has access. We have a cargo bike but it doesn't get a lot of use because I'm not a strong enough biker, that's something I want to work on. If we need another vehicle in the future, fine, but I try not to overthink what is working now in order to optimize the future because so frequently I am terrible at predicting my future needs. Case in point, I decided not to buy a minivan when we were expecting #2 and #3, then ended up car shopping 1 week post-partum, lol.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2021, 07:08:59 PM »
So we have been a 1 car family for… basically as long as we’ve been married. We’ve spent the last year with our son in daycare 2.5 mi away, continuing with only one car. And we’re due with #2 in (fingers crossed) under two months, and we are not buying a second car. Our plan to stick to one car sounds a lot like your plan to move to one car: two e-bikes. We have the benefit of starting with 1 car, though, so it’s not as much of an adjustment. Currently DH drives to work and drops off son at daycare on his way, I wfh, and I pick up son from daycare in my bike 2.5 mi away (one way, more like 6mi round trip due to a detour.) Here’s how we’ve managed the one car +bike set up for a full year of daycare thus far:

Inclement weather: We don’t live in Denver so this usually means daycare is closed when there is a snow day. For regular old cold, some good winter coats. When we get our e bikes, we’ll be getting add on canopies to protect from the wind at higher speeds, and to make rain more palatable to bike in. However, we do have summer thunderstorms and I do NOT mess around with lightning. In the summer, we would routinely check the weather in the morning. If there was a chance of a storm during pickup, either DH would bike in and I’d drive for both drop off and pick up, or he would plan to have stuff he could work on from home if he needed to leave work early to do the school pickup. This was definitely the most difficult weather to work around, and from what I know of Denver, I think that’s a problem there too? But with consistent communication and planning, we were always able to make it work.

Scheduling conflicts: because we only have the one car, we’re practiced at communicating anything that would require the car, in advance. That might be an adjustment you’ll have to make, transitioning from 2 to 1, but not impossible. With the proper planning, I don’t think we’ve ever run into a day when we both NEEDED the car at the same time. But it does take slightly more planning and consideration of the other person when scheduling appointments, etc.

Now, we only have one kid, and he’s still bike-seat sized. Our plan to not need a second car is to get two e-bikes too: a Yuba spicy curry (long tail) and a Madsen bucket bike. DH can use the long tail to bike son to daycare (2.5 mi), then on to work (another 2.5). While this is currently feasible distance and fitness wise, his current bike is unsuited to a bike seat (it’s a racing bike), hence why he currently drives. And while his 5mi commute is doable for him, we’ve also talked about how an e-assist would basically remove all friction from the decision to bike. Then I’d have the Madsen to do pickup with the car seat in the back. Even though it’s only 2.5 mi, E-assist is 100% mandatory for me, as I already struggle on the hills here on my 40 lb bike. The Madsen is 125 lb without anything in it! But this way, we will be car free at least 5 days of the week.

With the distances you’re looking at, the e- part MAY not be strictly necessary but if it removes significant friction from choosing to bike, you’re more likely to stick with it and not run into the last two concerns you mentioned. Plus, a major factor of how likely you are to stick with it is how far everything else is that you regularly need. Doctors office, grocery store, kids activities, friends houses, library, etc… bikeable? For us, for example, the grocery store is only sustainably bikeable with an e assist because it’s way downhill from home. With one car, and currently only one “Walmart bike” it’s not the end of the world, but it does mean that we have to plan who will do the store run and be sure they have the car that day.

The main concern I’d have would be locking an e bike unattended at a train station all day. Tern sells ones that fold down and might be able to come on transit with you. But given how easily defeated bike locks are, I’d hesitate to leave anything you couldn’t easily replace there.

NorCal

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2021, 07:21:56 PM »
So we have been a 1 car family for… basically as long as we’ve been married. We’ve spent the last year with our son in daycare 2.5 mi away, continuing with only one car. And we’re due with #2 in (fingers crossed) under two months, and we are not buying a second car. Our plan to stick to one car sounds a lot like your plan to move to one car: two e-bikes. We have the benefit of starting with 1 car, though, so it’s not as much of an adjustment. Currently DH drives to work and drops off son at daycare on his way, I wfh, and I pick up son from daycare in my bike 2.5 mi away (one way, more like 6mi round trip due to a detour.) Here’s how we’ve managed the one car +bike set up for a full year of daycare thus far:

Inclement weather: We don’t live in Denver so this usually means daycare is closed when there is a snow day. For regular old cold, some good winter coats. When we get our e bikes, we’ll be getting add on canopies to protect from the wind at higher speeds, and to make rain more palatable to bike in. However, we do have summer thunderstorms and I do NOT mess around with lightning. In the summer, we would routinely check the weather in the morning. If there was a chance of a storm during pickup, either DH would bike in and I’d drive for both drop off and pick up, or he would plan to have stuff he could work on from home if he needed to leave work early to do the school pickup. This was definitely the most difficult weather to work around, and from what I know of Denver, I think that’s a problem there too? But with consistent communication and planning, we were always able to make it work.

Scheduling conflicts: because we only have the one car, we’re practiced at communicating anything that would require the car, in advance. That might be an adjustment you’ll have to make, transitioning from 2 to 1, but not impossible. With the proper planning, I don’t think we’ve ever run into a day when we both NEEDED the car at the same time. But it does take slightly more planning and consideration of the other person when scheduling appointments, etc.

Now, we only have one kid, and he’s still bike-seat sized. Our plan to not need a second car is to get two e-bikes too: a Yuba spicy curry (long tail) and a Madsen bucket bike. DH can use the long tail to bike son to daycare (2.5 mi), then on to work (another 2.5). While this is currently feasible distance and fitness wise, his current bike is unsuited to a bike seat (it’s a racing bike), hence why he currently drives. And while his 5mi commute is doable for him, we’ve also talked about how an e-assist would basically remove all friction from the decision to bike. Then I’d have the Madsen to do pickup with the car seat in the back. Even though it’s only 2.5 mi, E-assist is 100% mandatory for me, as I already struggle on the hills here on my 40 lb bike. The Madsen is 125 lb without anything in it! But this way, we will be car free at least 5 days of the week.

With the distances you’re looking at, the e- part MAY not be strictly necessary but if it removes significant friction from choosing to bike, you’re more likely to stick with it and not run into the last two concerns you mentioned. Plus, a major factor of how likely you are to stick with it is how far everything else is that you regularly need. Doctors office, grocery store, kids activities, friends houses, library, etc… bikeable? For us, for example, the grocery store is only sustainably bikeable with an e assist because it’s way downhill from home. With one car, and currently only one “Walmart bike” it’s not the end of the world, but it does mean that we have to plan who will do the store run and be sure they have the car that day.

The main concern I’d have would be locking an e bike unattended at a train station all day. Tern sells ones that fold down and might be able to come on transit with you. But given how easily defeated bike locks are, I’d hesitate to leave anything you couldn’t easily replace there.

Glad to hear it's working for you!

After talking through it, we've decided that we'll keep both cars through the winter, but only act as if we have one.  We will see how it goes.

I know exactly what you're talking about with friction.  Right now, the biggest hurdle to biking is the process of getting the trailer out and hooking it up.  It takes about 5 minutes.  Is it a big deal?  Of course not.  But when we're running late in the mornings and kids are screaming and no one is listening?  It makes a difference.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2021, 12:33:55 AM »
It feels good being a one-car family. It feels even better when zooming around town on the e-bike. Go for it!

For communication, we use a shared calendar that syncs with our phones, so each spouse can reserve the car as necessary.

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2021, 07:00:51 PM »

The main concern I’d have would be locking an e bike unattended at a train station all day. Tern sells ones that fold down and might be able to come on transit with you. But given how easily defeated bike locks are, I’d hesitate to leave anything you couldn’t easily replace there.

I'm sticking with an e-bike as my primary mode of transport, and springing for a nicer one to keep me happy throughout the winter months in my new, hilly town.  Keeping the other one as both a backup and a companion bike for when I can entice my wife out on rides/errands.  Hopefully the new one will arrive in November as scheduled, though I have pretty serious doubts. 

With regard to your specific concern, I just sprung for the Hiplok D1000 Kickstarter.  If we believe the early reviews, it's basically invincible to any attack you could expect anyone to attempt unless they had the bike in private, in a closed shop.  Super-pricey, but if you have a pricey e-bike, I think it's worth it if you'd otherwise be looking at insurance.

Now, even with that lock, would I be comfortable leaving the an expensive bike unattended all day?  Probably not, for the sake of all the other things a thief might strip off of the bike.  Still, I'm hoping it - in conjunction with accessory/wheel locks and such, will give me peace of mind while around town, even leaving it for an hour or more. 

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2021, 08:37:25 PM »
We only have one car for many years. I took public buses to go to work before I retired. I still remember that I was standing at a bus station in the snow in a very cold morning waiting for my bus to come, a friend of mine drove by and wanted to give me a ride, I refused.
Now I am retired, he is still working (by choice I think).

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2021, 05:41:43 AM »
"Right now, the biggest hurdle to biking is the process of getting the trailer out and hooking it up.  It takes about 5 minutes."NorCal

Is there any way you can make this easier and faster? Rearrange the garage/shed? Put it away facing the other direction? I'm guessing you have more time to put it away, and no time to take it out to use, so you need to fix it for optimum ease of use, even if it is just a mental hurdle you erase.

Arbitrage

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2021, 07:40:23 AM »
"Right now, the biggest hurdle to biking is the process of getting the trailer out and hooking it up.  It takes about 5 minutes."NorCal

Is there any way you can make this easier and faster? Rearrange the garage/shed? Put it away facing the other direction? I'm guessing you have more time to put it away, and no time to take it out to use, so you need to fix it for optimum ease of use, even if it is just a mental hurdle you erase.

Presumably, if the second car is sold, there would be room in the garage to leave the trailer assembled/staged and ready for very quick hookup.  During my commuting days, I did occasionally encounter the morning where I just didn't feel like getting geared up and on the bike.  I did still have the car, so it theoretically was an option, but thankfully I never gave in other than the one morning where I found my bike's battery nearly dead (user error).  Though I occasionally found myself unmotivated, inevitably once I forced myself onto the road, my mood improved immediately. 


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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2021, 07:42:39 AM »
"Right now, the biggest hurdle to biking is the process of getting the trailer out and hooking it up.  It takes about 5 minutes."NorCal

Is there any way you can make this easier and faster? Rearrange the garage/shed? Put it away facing the other direction? I'm guessing you have more time to put it away, and no time to take it out to use, so you need to fix it for optimum ease of use, even if it is just a mental hurdle you erase.

Presumably, if the second car is sold, there would be room in the garage to leave the trailer assembled/staged and ready for very quick hookup.  During my commuting days, I did occasionally encounter the morning where I just didn't feel like getting geared up and on the bike.  I did still have the car, so it theoretically was an option, but thankfully I never gave in other than the one morning where I found my bike's battery nearly dead (user error).  Though I occasionally found myself unmotivated, inevitably once I forced myself onto the road, my mood improved immediately.

Lol, my big limiting factor is putting on sunscreen. I hate the process of slathering that crap on, so whenever I had to choose bike or car, it was the thought of sunscreen that always made me hesitate about biking.

So I bought a bunch of long sleeve, high neck, sweat wicking UV shirts. Problem solved.

NorCal

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2021, 05:36:44 PM »
"Right now, the biggest hurdle to biking is the process of getting the trailer out and hooking it up.  It takes about 5 minutes."NorCal

Is there any way you can make this easier and faster? Rearrange the garage/shed? Put it away facing the other direction? I'm guessing you have more time to put it away, and no time to take it out to use, so you need to fix it for optimum ease of use, even if it is just a mental hurdle you erase.

Presumably, if the second car is sold, there would be room in the garage to leave the trailer assembled/staged and ready for very quick hookup.  During my commuting days, I did occasionally encounter the morning where I just didn't feel like getting geared up and on the bike.  I did still have the car, so it theoretically was an option, but thankfully I never gave in other than the one morning where I found my bike's battery nearly dead (user error).  Though I occasionally found myself unmotivated, inevitably once I forced myself onto the road, my mood improved immediately.

Yep, this is absolutely a solvable problem.  The garage has limited storage space with two cars, but it would be easier with one car.

I think the key to long-term success is to just eliminate as many of the minor logistical hurdles as possible. 

We're currently pretending we have one car to see how it goes.  Next week will be a test, as my wife will be commuting to Boulder for a few days, and the weather is at the point where it won't be an entirely pleasant ride. 

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Re: Almost ready to go down to a 1 car family....
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2021, 06:20:52 PM »
We're a "1-car plus motorcycle" family. The motorcycle (two actually) are kind of fun projects and not used for regular transportation, but if we absolutely have be in two places at the same time, they solve that. It almost never happens though. Wife usually bikes to work and I WFH.