Poll

Would you gamble?

I would gamble the $50,000
69 (26.4%)
I wouldn't gamble the $50,000
192 (73.6%)

Total Members Voted: 240

Author Topic: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...  (Read 70700 times)

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #150 on: March 20, 2014, 09:59:52 AM »
Yeah, that's called a Martingale system, and it's not something I'm interested in.  It would be a one time bet.
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DoubleDown

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #151 on: March 20, 2014, 11:02:11 AM »
odds of losing 4 times in a row = (20/38)^4 = 7.67% which means you have a 92.33% success rate with this strategy.


Hmmm, I think you'll need to define "success" in this scenario! I.e., winning the final bet only brings you back to even.

Yes, many problems with the Martingale approach, perhaps most notably casino betting limits.

dragoncar

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #152 on: March 20, 2014, 11:15:17 AM »
odds of losing 4 times in a row = (20/38)^4 = 7.67% which means you have a 92.33% success rate with this strategy.


Hmmm, I think you'll need to define "success" in this scenario! I.e., winning the final bet only brings you back to even.

Yes, many problems with the Martingale approach, perhaps most notably casino betting limits.

I thought he was adding $50k to each bet.  So success would be +$50k

MDM

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #153 on: March 20, 2014, 11:29:20 AM »
Goal: increase net worth by $50K

1st bet:  $50K.  Lose.  Now down $50K, so need to win $100K
2nd bet: $100K.  Lose.  Now down $150K, so need to win $200K
3rd bet: $200K.  Lose.  Now down $350K, so need to win $400K
4th bet: $400K.  Lose.  Now down $750K, so need to win $800K
Etc.

You can run out of money to play the game.   The wikipedia Martingale system article (see arebelspy's link) has a good mathematical description.

frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #154 on: March 20, 2014, 12:39:25 PM »
odds of losing 4 times in a row = (20/38)^4 = 7.67% which means you have a 92.33% success rate with this strategy.


Hmmm, I think you'll need to define "success" in this scenario! I.e., winning the final bet only brings you back to even.

Yes, many problems with the Martingale approach, perhaps most notably casino betting limits.

I upped it enough to cover previous losses and ensure a 50k net profit, so once you win you quit and are 50k ahead.

MDM

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #155 on: March 20, 2014, 12:50:47 PM »
Frugalnacho, mea culpa, you had the analysis already done but it was on the previous page.

DoubleDown

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #156 on: March 20, 2014, 02:37:11 PM »
Oh yeah, my bad frugalnacho, I misread your previous example (although the same ol' impediments remain: betting limits, not having an unlimited bankroll, etc.).

frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2014, 07:55:50 AM »
Also the fact that it completely ignores taxes.  If you win 50k you will have to pay a large portion of it to uncle sam as it will be added to your already large income.  I think the math already doesn't work out in your favor, plus the other problems you've already mentioned, and then you add taxes into the equation and it becomes an absolute no-brainer imo.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2014, 08:08:05 AM »
Also the fact that it completely ignores taxes.  If you win 50k you will have to pay a large portion of it to uncle sam as it will be added to your already large income.  I think the math already doesn't work out in your favor, plus the other problems you've already mentioned, and then you add taxes into the equation and it becomes an absolute no-brainer imo.

Naturally one could bet enough to cover the taxes.  As long as that larger bet was still made up in the next year working, it doesn't change the scenario at all.
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wesley

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2014, 08:14:51 AM »
A few times in life I have literally flipped a coin for an important decision deciding to quit a job without another to go to - my thought process was I have weighed it up but still can't decide so I will let the universe decide for me.. (i ended up flipping in front of a few co-workers and then immediatley quit. It actually felt great.

So I would take the gamble, provided everything else was in order financially and I wouldn't mind working the extra year.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2014, 08:18:43 AM »
A few times in life I have literally flipped a coin for an important decision deciding to quit a job without another to go to - my thought process was I have weighed it up but still can't decide so I will let the universe decide for me.. (i ended up flipping in front of a few co-workers and then immediatley quit. It actually felt great.

Hah, I love it.  Great story!

I wouldn't do it myself, but still think it's awesome.
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frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2014, 08:44:04 AM »
Also the fact that it completely ignores taxes.  If you win 50k you will have to pay a large portion of it to uncle sam as it will be added to your already large income.  I think the math already doesn't work out in your favor, plus the other problems you've already mentioned, and then you add taxes into the equation and it becomes an absolute no-brainer imo.

Naturally one could bet enough to cover the taxes.  As long as that larger bet was still made up in the next year working, it doesn't change the scenario at all.

It exacerbates all the other problems mentioned like casino betting limits and a finite bankroll. 

And if you are only doing a single bet as explained in the first post you have to factor in the tax loss to the equation.  The odds are already against you, and the more you lose to taxes the more if shifts the odds against you.  Going to the extreme if you had to pay 99% of your winnings in taxes not only are you already an underdog with only 18/38 odds of winning, but your expected value per dollar would drop by 99%.  If you could play that scenario over an infinite number of times your return on investment would be abysmal.   You won't be spending 99% in taxes, but any amount over 0% can't be ignored.

I say it's a bad bet and the odds are not in your favor.

frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2014, 08:50:41 AM »
So with your odds of 18/38 you can expect to win 47.4% of the time.  So every $1 you wager you can expect to get $0.957 back, the rest goes to the casino.   Factor in that you will owe 25% of that to uncle sam, and if you lose you don't get a deduction because the gov doesn't subsidize your gambling habit and your actual expected return per $1 is $0.71.

Scaling up or down to cover taxes won't change the math and that is a terrible return on investment.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2014, 08:59:53 AM »
It exacerbates all the other problems mentioned like casino betting limits and a finite bankroll. 

There are no casino betting limit or finite bankroll problems, as I'm not interested in a Martingale system.  That was an aside that someone (EDIT: looking back it was you, lol) made up, and is irrelevant to the discussion.  I'm not sure why you keep discussing it.

So with your odds of 18/38 you can expect to win 47.4% of the time.  So every $1 you wager you can expect to get $0.957 back, the rest goes to the casino.   Factor in that you will owe 25% of that to uncle sam, and if you lose you don't get a deduction because the gov doesn't subsidize your gambling habit and your actual expected return per $1 is $0.71.

Scaling up or down to cover taxes won't change the math and that is a terrible return on investment.

Naturally it's not a good investment.  No one is talking about it as an investment.

But due to the concave utility function and having essentially having the losing outcome be the same as the not betting outcome, it can still be a smart bet.  Hell, given appropriate parameters, a 1000:1 bet could be a smart bet.

How about this: We flip a coin. If it's heads, you get $71.  If it's tails, nothing happens.  Would you decline to flip the coin?

In other words, it's a terrible bet for someone trying to become FI in nearly any circumstance.  In certain niche ones (such as a pension) it could be a smart bet even with a massively negative EV, if the additional money gives no additional utility.
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wesley

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2014, 09:06:49 AM »
Just gamble it - let fate decide if you are ready to retire or not!

[/quote]

How about this: We flip a coin. If it's heads, you get $71.  If it's tails, nothing happens.  Would you decline to flip the coin?

In other words, it's a terrible bet for someone trying to become FI in nearly any circumstance.  In certain niche ones (such as a pension) it could be a smart bet even with a massively negative EV, if the additional money gives no additional utility.
[/quote]

I have never played the lottery - the odds arent even close to being in my favour, however a property developer I know once said to me 'I'm worth 20 Million.. If I can spend 2 dollars and have a chance to double my wealth I would be crazy to say no' so it kind of changed my persepctive a bit - I have still never played lottery though!

warfreak2

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #165 on: March 21, 2014, 09:12:00 AM »
Everyone talking about the house advantage, betting limits, and tax, is sort of missing the point. It's an abstract question concerning a hypothetical bet made under the assumption that there's a 50% chance of gaining $50k and a 50% chance of losing $50k. Such bets may not exist at casinos but that is a red herring; they very nearly exist in many other contexts.

frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #166 on: March 21, 2014, 09:17:02 AM »
It exacerbates all the other problems mentioned like casino betting limits and a finite bankroll. 

There are no casino betting limit or finite bankroll problems, as I'm not interested in a Martingale system.  That was an aside that someone (EDIT: looking back it was you, lol) made up, and is irrelevant to the discussion.  I'm not sure why you keep discussing it.

So with your odds of 18/38 you can expect to win 47.4% of the time.  So every $1 you wager you can expect to get $0.957 back, the rest goes to the casino.   Factor in that you will owe 25% of that to uncle sam, and if you lose you don't get a deduction because the gov doesn't subsidize your gambling habit and your actual expected return per $1 is $0.71.

Scaling up or down to cover taxes won't change the math and that is a terrible return on investment.

Naturally it's not a good investment.  No one is talking about it as an investment.

But due to the concave utility function and having essentially having the losing outcome be the same as the not betting outcome, it can still be a smart bet.  Hell, given appropriate parameters, a 1000:1 bet could be a smart bet.

How about this: We flip a coin. If it's heads, you get $71.  If it's tails, nothing happens.  Would you decline to flip the coin?

In other words, it's a terrible bet for someone trying to become FI in nearly any circumstance.  In certain niche ones (such as a pension) it could be a smart bet even with a massively negative EV, if the additional money gives no additional utility.

I understand you aren't interested in the martingale betting system which is why I elaborated with the second paragraph.  I included it though since others have been discussing it and the limitations of it.

I would certainly take that coin flip bet, but I don't really see how it's applicable (unless you are suggesting that I would actually lose $100, but the $100 is irrelevant since I would achieve my FI within the next year regardless of losing that $100 or losing $0 - which is what I think you are driving at).

If that is what you are driving at, then you still need to adjust your numbers to account for taxes and see if it still works out.  If you need 50k and will pay 25% taxes, then you actually need to be risking $66,666.67.  Can you sustain a loss of 66.67k and still achieve FI with only another year of work?



frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #167 on: March 21, 2014, 09:21:13 AM »
Everyone talking about the house advantage, betting limits, and tax, is sort of missing the point. It's an abstract question concerning a hypothetical bet made under the assumption that there's a 50% chance of gaining $50k and a 50% chance of losing $50k. Such bets may not exist at casinos but that is a red herring; they very nearly exist in many other contexts.

The op is specifically talking about a roulette wheel at a casino though.  I don't see how you can ignore the real world percentages and other factors.

That would be similar to me saying I could win $5M on the lottery for only $1, so I should do it, while ignoring the actual chances of winning and the actual tax implications of winning.  Those have to be considered because in that specific example they will be factored into the actual equation.

sleepyguy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #168 on: March 21, 2014, 09:23:35 AM »
None of the above.  I would work 1/2 the year, then quit (yes students will be unhappy), but whatever... a substitute will get a much needed job for 6mths.  Just because it's frowned upon doesn't mean you can't do it.

Done.

frugalnacho

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #169 on: March 21, 2014, 09:47:43 AM »
I just reread the thread and see the op is talking about a roulette wheel, but also a hypothetical 50/50 coinflip that ignores taxes. 

It's an interesting thought experiment for sure.  I would contend though that you MUST include the real world factors that have been brought up before ever putting it into practice though.  But just as a thought experiment for simplicity, it's a tough decision.  Although I question whether the 50k lost would really be of no use to you.  I understand the FI number you have in mind already has a safety net in place, and you are happy with your current life/spending and presumably will be happy maintaining the same spending in the future.  That additional money could always lend itself to even greater peace of mind, and possibly more luxury.  Sure you don't need it, and I wouldn't advise spending it frivolously, but it could still provide some things that are not needed but are nice.  I often find myself compromising on my spending and trying to balance spending/saving/happiness.  Sure I am happy with my spending and my life, but if I had additional money I would surely spend more.  Instead of a $3 meal that I enjoy perfectly fine, I could find myself getting a $4 meal that I enjoy slightly more.  The reason I don't get the $4 meal now is because I am saving for FI, but if I had the extra money I would certainly up my meal spending slightly.   Food for thought.


DoubleDown

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #170 on: March 21, 2014, 10:06:09 AM »
Arebelspy, you may not be interested in making the effort of card counting, but I've done it a lot in Vegas an AC casinos (hence my username), and it's been very profitable. Given your scenario, you could swing the odds of your single bet from being slightly negative to slightly positive by employing card counting. You could swing your bet from being 52-48 against you, to maybe 52-48 in your favor (depending on the casino's blackjack rules).

I would play out your scenario like this: I'd go to a high limit table relatively late at night, appearing somewhat intoxicated, dressed like a rich, spoiled young man, with your wife alongside also dressed up, and buy $50,000 in chips (you'll likely have to ask for some black chips). Then I'd play some token $100 bets until the opportunity presented itself (i.e., the count is high), then literally say "Fuck it, it's getting late!" and push your entire stack out*. And you have a chance of really hitting it big if you're dealt a blackjack (approx. 2.5% - 3.0% chance).

* Technically, you'd be better off pushing half your stack out in case you need to split or double, and instead doing two $25,000 bets, but that would violate your "single bet" criteria. But it would really, really suck, for example, to be dealt a couple of aces or 8's and not be able to split.

warfreak2

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #171 on: March 21, 2014, 10:07:25 AM »
The op is specifically talking about a roulette wheel at a casino though.
He isn't, as has been clarified a few times throughout the thread. It's just a convenient language to use; for example, in probability we often talk in terms of "coin flip" scenarios despite a (usual) absence of coins and flipping.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #172 on: March 21, 2014, 10:13:43 AM »
I would certainly take that coin flip bet, but I don't really see how it's applicable (unless you are suggesting that I would actually lose $100, but the $100 is irrelevant since I would achieve my FI within the next year regardless of losing that $100 or losing $0 - which is what I think you are driving at).

If that is what you are driving at, then you still need to adjust your numbers to account for taxes and see if it still works out.  If you need 50k and will pay 25% taxes, then you actually need to be risking $66,666.67.  Can you sustain a loss of 66.67k and still achieve FI with only another year of work?

Correct.  Yes.  Losing 66k would be 116 short, and more than that would be saved in the scenario in the year.

Everyone talking about the house advantage, betting limits, and tax, is sort of missing the point. It's an abstract question concerning a hypothetical bet made under the assumption that there's a 50% chance of gaining $50k and a 50% chance of losing $50k. Such bets may not exist at casinos but that is a red herring; they very nearly exist in many other contexts.

The op is specifically talking about a roulette wheel at a casino though.

No, WF2 had it right, as I stated, the red or black on a roulette wheel was an example that most people understand, so it was chosen for illustrative purposes, but the hypothetical was what I was interested in.  Sorry if that was unclear.  :)

It's an interesting thought experiment for sure.  I would contend though that you MUST include the real world factors that have been brought up before ever putting it into practice though.

Absolutely.  If and when it comes to that, I'll start a thread discussing the various methods I might use to achieve it.

That additional money could always lend itself to even greater peace of mind, and possibly more luxury.  Sure you don't need it, and I wouldn't advise spending it frivolously, but it could still provide some things that are not needed but are nice.  I often find myself compromising on my spending and trying to balance spending/saving/happiness.  Sure I am happy with my spending and my life, but if I had additional money I would surely spend more.  Instead of a $3 meal that I enjoy perfectly fine, I could find myself getting a $4 meal that I enjoy slightly more.  The reason I don't get the $4 meal now is because I am saving for FI, but if I had the extra money I would certainly up my meal spending slightly.   Food for thought.

Ah, see that doesn't happen for me.  I spend everything I want, and have budgeted to spend everything I want in FIRE.  If I want a $4 meal, I'd get it.  I don't save any extra for FIRE, the amount I save is just the surplus from what I make and don't have anything to spend it on.  So that's not a factor.
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arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #173 on: March 21, 2014, 10:14:10 AM »
None of the above.  I would work 1/2 the year, then quit (yes students will be unhappy), but whatever... a substitute will get a much needed job for 6mths.  Just because it's frowned upon doesn't mean you can't do it.

Done.

It has nothing to do with being frowned on; I don't give a fuck what is frowned on by other people.  It's something we wouldn't do to students because of our own ethics.
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DoubleDown

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #174 on: March 21, 2014, 10:15:31 AM »
Hey ARS it also occurred to me, since I'm now FIRE and free to travel, if you don't want to learn card counting and want to outsource it to me, I'm happy to join you free of charge! If you fly me there on a discount airline ticket, I'll stand next to you and give you the signal of when it's time to push your stack out, and what to do if the hand you're dealt isn't obvious! And win or lose, I'll take you and the wife out to dinner :-)

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #175 on: March 21, 2014, 10:16:53 AM »
Arebelspy, you may not be interested in making the effort of card counting, but I've done it a lot in Vegas an AC casinos (hence my username), and it's been very profitable. Given your scenario, you could swing the odds of your single bet from being slightly negative to slightly positive by employing card counting. You could swing your bet from being 52-48 against you, to maybe 52-48 in your favor (depending on the casino's blackjack rules).

I would play out your scenario like this: I'd go to a high limit table relatively late at night, appearing somewhat intoxicated, dressed like a rich, spoiled young man, with your wife alongside also dressed up, and buy $50,000 in chips (you'll likely have to ask for some black chips). Then I'd play some token $100 bets until the opportunity presented itself (i.e., the count is high), then literally say "Fuck it, it's getting late!" and push your entire stack out*. And you have a chance of really hitting it big if you're dealt a blackjack (approx. 2.5% - 3.0% chance).

* Technically, you'd be better off pushing half your stack out in case you need to split or double, and instead doing two $25,000 bets, but that would violate your "single bet" criteria. But it would really, really suck, for example, to be dealt a couple of aces or 8's and not be able to split.

That's an interesting idea.  I'm not a fan of card counting in general, I think it's real overhyped.  But the idea to shove all in after flat betting is a decent one, rather than just varying bets based on the count.

Sucks if they get a blackjack though.  :P

The wife mentioned a sports bet to me.  Stock options would be another.  As I mentioned, if and when it comes to that, I'll start a thread discussing the various methods I might use to achieve it.

Though a theoretical thread discussing that anyways could be fun.

Hey ARS it also occurred to me, since I'm now FIRE and free to travel, if you don't want to learn card counting and want to outsource it to me, I'm happy to join you free of charge! If you fly me there on a discount airline ticket, I'll stand next to you and give you the signal of when it's time to push your stack out, and what to do if the hand you're dealt isn't obvious! And win or lose, I'll take you and the wife out to dinner :-)

lol.  I'll keep it in mind.
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The Happy Philosopher

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #176 on: March 21, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »
interesting question. I haven't read every response so apologies if I repeat any points. That and I haven't had coffee yet.

There are really too many uncontrollable variables in retirement planning to be this precise with numbers in my opinion. Changes in tax rates, interest rates, investment returns, health status, etc. can change the probability that your retirement "number" will succeed. For these reasons i would keep working until I passed my "number". 

For many careers leaving and coming back because you are forced to (maybe substitute teaching or tutoring) will probably pay less per hour than you are getting now, so if forced to work again you may actually be spending more time, not gaining time. Now I could be wrong about this but it's something to investigate.

Retiring a year early may result in higher health insurance costs. In my experience teachers have awesome health insurance benefits. If you are forced onto the open market it will be probably be more expensive and worse coverage.

Your values may change over time. Mine certainly have. We tend to look to our recent past and project indefinitely into the future. I can guess what spending level will give me greatest happiness in 20 years, but I can't really know for sure. Maybe spending 10% more a year will be optimal for me. Working an extra year will give you some flexibility to allow your spending to slightly increase if it aligns with your values.  Most mustachians have cut all the fat out of their budgets. This is great on one hand as we need less to live on in retirement, but it is harder to painlessly lower spending further. We spend more on necessities and less on stupid shit. It is easier to cut 40k from a 200k budget than 10k from a 50k budget.

I would keep working unless I absolutely hated my job. It's easier to enjoy your job knowing that you are essentially financially free.

An interesting thought experiment about the 4% swr: You decide your number is 1,000,000. You hit your number and retire @ 40k/yr. Portfolio gets crushed, falls to 800,000 the following year. What is your swr? Should you go back to work? In another universe you have 1,000,000 and decide to work another year. You save 50k and portfolio gets crushed and falls to 850,000. What is your swr? Should you keep working another year as you have not hit your "number"? I realize this is unlikely and most people heading into retirement you'd likely be invested in a way they shouldn't lose 20% but what would you do a year from now if you decided to work and your portfolio took a major hit?  I would probably keep working.

Alright. Coffee.



arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #177 on: March 21, 2014, 10:35:01 AM »
Welcome to the forums, frugaldoc.  Thanks for your thoughts.  :)
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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #178 on: March 21, 2014, 10:40:42 AM »
I'm not a fan of card counting in general, I think it's real overhyped.

Yes I agree it can be overhyped, and it is no magical path to riches. But despite the overhype by some, the math and methods are sound. Even with my relatively small-time betting over the years, it's resulted in a lot of consistent and substantial gains.


The wife mentioned a sports bet to me.  Stock options would be another. 

I particularly like the sports bet idea! The only problem I see with stock options is how long would it take to realize the gain if it occurs? But again, I digress into the "how" discussion rather than the "if you should hypotheticals" so apologies :-)

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #179 on: March 21, 2014, 10:52:22 AM »
I'm not a fan of card counting in general, I think it's real overhyped.

Yes I agree it can be overhyped, and it is no magical path to riches. But despite the overhype by some, the math and methods are sound. Even with my relatively small-time betting over the years, it's resulted in a lot of consistent and substantial gains.


The wife mentioned a sports bet to me.  Stock options would be another. 

I particularly like the sports bet idea! The only problem I see with stock options is how long would it take to realize the gain if it occurs? But again, I digress into the "how" discussion rather than the "if you should hypotheticals" so apologies :-)

Yeah, certain stock ideas may have to be done at least a year out.

I'm good with a "how" discussion over hypotheticals, as long as the people discussing understand the hypothetical scenario and move past that to the next discussion on practicalities.. a lot of people in the thread have gotten stuck on practicalities and did not understand the hypothetical and/or got it wrong because of their confusion.  :)
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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #180 on: March 21, 2014, 10:58:55 AM »
Ah, but I gain time when I win, and I don't lose any if I lose.   

Interesting scenario!  It does seem to boil down to this.  If you would choose to spend your time differently after FI (i.e., not teach), then the bet seems to make sense.  If you win, you get an extra year to do what ever it is you want to do after FI and, if you lose, you are not going to have to work any longer.

 

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #181 on: March 22, 2014, 07:19:48 PM »
With 50:50 odds, it's a losing proposition once you figure in the taxes.

If you lose, you're out $50K
If you win, you're up $34K

Most people would need 3:2 odds to make it an even bet.

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #182 on: March 22, 2014, 08:08:40 PM »
That's a good point under normal circumstances, but this idea is anything but normal. First, OP has already mentioned taxes would be considered but were left out so as not to confuse the reader. Second, he has something like 5:8 odds available to him while still being able to either work 1 year or 0 years under the scenario he presented. Third, for anyone who's ever had major gambling winnings or has prepared a tax return with gambling winnings, it's very easy to reduce them to zero with a few letters from casinos verifying how much money you've "lost" at their establishment. This is really less of an issue than most people think.

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #183 on: March 22, 2014, 09:39:07 PM »
Count me among the mustachian caravan to Vegas to watch this spin of the roulette wheel.

I'm wondering if you teach math or philosophy. I see how in the abstract, under your assumptions, the bet makes a great deal of sense.

If it was me, I don't think I'd have the guts to do it. I think I'd want to work the extra year, FIRE with a larger cushion, and just enjoy the ride. But if you do decide to take the bet, it makes sense, so long as you and your wife can stomach the loss. 


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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #184 on: March 22, 2014, 11:00:42 PM »
Viewing this as an isolated scenario with the constraints you've given, it would idiotic not to do this.

If you stretch the definition of being FI to its greatest lengths, money has no value to you after FI. Therefore you are presenting an opportunity where you are risking nothing to potentially gain something extremely valuable to you, 1 year of time.

Obviously there are many other factors which have been discussed, but if you really feel that 50k has no value to you (or to give to others) once you are FI, then you should absolutely do it.

But I wouldn't. I don't think.


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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #185 on: March 23, 2014, 06:50:05 AM »
Third, for anyone who's ever had major gambling winnings or has prepared a tax return with gambling winnings, it's very easy to reduce them to zero with a few letters from casinos verifying how much money you've "lost" at their establishment.
Tax evasion would not help me sleep easy at night. To each his own, I guess.

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2014, 08:44:18 AM »
Viewing this as an isolated scenario with the constraints you've given, it would idiotic not to do this.

I still prefer "wife retires 1 year earlier while pregnant" scenario instead of "both work extra year"

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #187 on: March 23, 2014, 08:53:48 AM »
I still prefer "wife retires 1 year earlier while pregnant" scenario instead of "both work extra year"

Explain the math to me on that one, as I'm having trouble seeing what you're picturing with regards to who retires when.

Use the earlier assumptions of "short 50k one June, a month or two after the baby is born, earn 130k combined/yr -- would she retire the previous June, before she was pregnant, requiring me to work 3 more than her?  Would she retire right after the baby's born, having me work the one extra, but it'd be enough due to not needing so much?  I guess now that I type it out you probably mean that one.  As discussed earlier though, we're sort of in it together.  She's okay with working more while I SAHD, but I'd rather have us both be done.  It is an option to consider though.

Like I said, I'm shooting to not get in this scenario, and just make it so we aren't short at all when the baby is born.  ;)

It was just an interesting idea that came up if we were short...
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TomTX

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #188 on: March 23, 2014, 09:01:21 AM »
I still prefer "wife retires 1 year earlier while pregnant" scenario instead of "both work extra year"

Explain the math to me on that one, as I'm having trouble seeing what you're picturing with regards to who retires when.

Use the earlier assumptions of "short 50k one June, a month or two after the baby is born, earn 130k combined/yr -- would she retire the previous June, before she was pregnant, requiring me to work 3 more than her?  Would she retire right after the baby's born, having me work the one extra, but it'd be enough due to not needing so much?  I guess now that I type it out you probably mean that one.  As discussed earlier though, we're sort of in it together.  She's okay with working more while I SAHD, but I'd rather have us both be done.  It is an option to consider though.

Like I said, I'm shooting to not get in this scenario, and just make it so we aren't short at all when the baby is born.  ;)

It was just an interesting idea that came up if we were short...

Ah, I thought you were shooting for "baby born in last year before FI"

Also - pregnancy happens when it happens. Due dates are just vague guesses. Trying to advance schedule a birth to within a couple of months is.... um... optimistic.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #189 on: March 23, 2014, 09:21:15 AM »
Also - pregnancy happens when it happens. Due dates are just vague guesses. Trying to advance schedule a birth to within a couple of months is.... um... optimistic.

Yeah, I don't know enough about that I guess.

I mean, I know some people have a hard time getting pregnant.  But I wonder what percent of people can get pregnant right away once they start trying?

EDIT: Found this stat:

Your age     Your chances of conceiving in a year
Under 25                     96%
25-34                     86%
35-44                     78%

We'll be in that second category.  We'll have around a 6 month "buffer" for when we're shooting to have the kid, so I guess we'll start trying early in that period, and cross our fingers.. probably have about a 75% chance to have it happen as ideal?  Who knows though, that's obviously with large numbers and our situation will be personal.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:23:39 AM by arebelspy »
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TomTX

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #190 on: March 23, 2014, 09:27:57 AM »
You can start doing some reading now, and see about optimizing changes to conceive. Being healthy and eating well obviously helps, but there are calendar timing things you can do too.

Or just stick to "Twice a day, every day" ;)

It didn't take us long, and we're in the 3rd category. We weren't on a particular timeframe, but it apparently happened the first time I was actually home at the "right time" of the month.

Other people - yeah, it can take quite awhile or require intervention.

Despite a relatively easy, healthy pregnancy - the birth was rough, and was quite expensive even with pretty good insurance. Despite my trying multiple times, the hospital WOULD NOT come up with real costs for me.

And you will probably have a dozen different people sending you related medical bills. For a year.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:29:32 AM by TomTX »

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #191 on: March 23, 2014, 09:30:44 AM »
All helpful information on something I know very little about.  Thank you.  :)
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Cheddar Stacker

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2014, 09:39:26 AM »
Third, for anyone who's ever had major gambling winnings or has prepared a tax return with gambling winnings, it's very easy to reduce them to zero with a few letters from casinos verifying how much money you've "lost" at their establishment.
Tax evasion would not help me sleep easy at night. To each his own, I guess.

I've never done it myself, and I don't really know what I'd do in a situation where I had $50K reportable gambling winnings. I have many clients whose main retirement activity is playing the slots. Many of them give me tax statements detailing winnings of $100K, plus reports from casinos detailing $80-150K of losses. I've never had a client pay taxes on reportable gambling winnings, and I think it's because they pretty much live at the casino and can support buying a six figure amount of chips during the year.

I see your point though, if you owe the tax, pay it. I'm all about tax planning and tax avoidance, but this could cross the line into evasion which could make it tough to sleep at night.

grantmeaname

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2014, 10:47:34 AM »
It wouldn't if you actually lost $80-150k, which I'd imagine the clients that win $100k a year do. But if you go to the casino and bet once and win, you will only have that one transaction and no gambling losses to offset it.

ARS: As you likely know, unlike gambling losses, investment losses can be used to offset other income. So if you could figure out a way to do your bet with options or something it would be taxed at the same rate  as the gambling winnings if you win (or lower if you can qualify for LTCG treatment on the instrument you use), and would provide you with a tax benefit if you lose (although currently you can only use $3000/year of capital losses to offset ordinary income). IDK how you'd do it from the perspective of selecting the instrument, but that could help the expected value compared to a sports bet or something.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2014, 10:51:00 AM »
That's a good point. Taxes will definitely factor in in some way.
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TomTX

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #195 on: March 23, 2014, 12:44:53 PM »
All helpful information on something I know very little about.  Thank you.  :)

I'll also highly suggest using this summer to hit the research hard.

1) Research local medicos - whether you go with traditional OB or midwife. Find one you like. They often have a "Meet the OB night" every couple of months. You also need to know who their backups are! We are some of the very few parents I know who actually had our own chose OB at the birth.

2) Research local hospitals/birthing centers. Go on a tour of any you are considering

3) Research pediatricians. Again, they often have a "Meet our pediatricians" every couple of months. We needed a pediatrician who was happy with us doing our own research (such as on PubMed - actual studies) instead of the traditional "dispensing medical wisdom to the plebes" method some docs hold onto.

4) Start researching pregnancy and birth. "What to Expect when you're Expecting" should be retitled "How to freak out when you're Expecting" - it's full of all sorts of everything that could possibly go wrong.

5) Go meet your local La Leche chapter. Seriously. Your wife should know what to expect, and usually there is someone you can call if (when) you have issues. Our local group is great with support/meetings.

6) Go meet your local Babywearing International chapter. Ours has a lending library of baby carriers, for $5 per month - or free with the annual $30 membership. There is a LOT of trial and error with baby carrier wearing - these people are passionate about it, and can get you set up properly.

7) Once you guys are pregnant, don't get sucked into the negative-reinforcement pregnancy/child groups that abound on the internet. Don't let three thousand parents tell you their birth horror story (because they will.)

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #196 on: March 24, 2014, 09:00:58 AM »
Sorry to add ontop to the offtopic, but i totally can support 7). We had the luck to have two beautiful birth experiences but there are quite alot of horror storys out there and for a reason i dont know, there are only very few "it was hard work but a positive thing".

I also would add my 2cts to breast feeding. Here in europe (at least germany) there seems to be some religion about breast feeding. There are plenty of obsessive YOU MUST BREASTFEED people around and this pushes the expectation that breast feeding is a natural thing that will work automatically because wife+child "will know what to do".
This is wrong and oversimplified. In most cases, learning to breastfeed is a tough activity for both mum and child. it will hurt alot and it will be really no fun to nurse. Please give your wife much support in those many hard weeks.
Like an investment it will pay out later and the promised dividend will be worth all the trouble and pain.

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #197 on: March 24, 2014, 02:21:41 PM »
I have never played the lottery - the odds arent even close to being in my favour

I think the odds of winning the lottery are approximately the same whether or not you actually play.  :)

My FIRE expenses will be around 45k.  I expect to make significantly more than that income-wise (I'm shooting for a 50% savings rate in FIRE in a normal year, with that dropping to no savings at worst in the rare bad years).

Doesn't that imply a 2x safety factor?  If you're using the oft-discussed 4% SWR as your basis, you're actually planning on a 2% SWR, right?

Anyway, to answer the original question: personally, I don't think I could do it.  But in your case, all the "hard" factors suggest that it's a reasonable thing to do.  But, so many have called into question the "soft" factors.

One other "soft" factor that I don't think anyone has brought up: might your perspective about the numbers change once you actually have children?  I mean, there have already been a ton of responses along the lines of "Are you sure you have enough safety?  Are you that confident in your FI number?"  I don't want to be yet another parroting those concerns---I truly believe you can confidently say "yes!" to those questions now.  But how can you be so confident about how you'll look at things post-kids?

I didn't start learning about FIRE until after my first was born, so I can't draw on personal experience looking at FIRE from a before kids viewpoint.  But ignoring all the FIRE stuff, I can say life is very different before and after children.  The first was a huge change.  The second was a "huge-squared" change.

I do think that child-raising would be easier post-FIRE, simply because they demand so much of your time.  Especially young kids (which happens to be my only experience, I have a baby and a toddler).  (If you've read many of my posts, you know my constant complainypants perspective is the challenges of time in working towards FIRE, in particular with young kids and full-time employment.)

On the other hand, maybe planning all this out before kids puts you in a superior position: you can theoretically make a more objective analysis without being affected by "baby brain".  Still, after you have kids, do you have the tenacity to stick to the (presumably rational/objective) plan you came up with before you had them?

As a side note, FWIW: regarding conception, my wife and I were in the 25-34 age category for both kids.  The first took about six months to conceive, the second two (or three?) I think.  We don't plan on having any more, but now we're pretty sure about the timing, and confident we could git-r-done much more quickly if we wanted another.  I will note that with the first, those six months were very emotional for my wife.  We hadn't even been at it a year, and she was already worried we wouldn't be able to conceive, even though the doctor said six months is what she typically sees for the first conception.  Obviously every woman is different; but in my case, I think my wife is generally pretty rational and level-headed, and we knew going into trying for the first that if it took a year to conceive it wouldn't be unusual.  Despite that, and constant affirmation from the fertility doc that everything was fine, there was a lot of tears after about two or three months of trying without pregnancy.

arebelspy

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #198 on: March 24, 2014, 03:59:05 PM »
My FIRE expenses will be around 45k.  I expect to make significantly more than that income-wise (I'm shooting for a 50% savings rate in FIRE in a normal year, with that dropping to no savings at worst in the rare bad years).

Doesn't that imply a 2x safety factor?  If you're using the oft-discussed 4% SWR as your basis, you're actually planning on a 2% SWR, right?

Yes, and no, in that order.  I will not have a SWR, as I will have rental income for my FIRE income.  There will be no withdrawals from a traditional portfolio.
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Twenty4Me

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Re: Almost logical to gamble $50,000 on red...
« Reply #199 on: March 24, 2014, 05:58:15 PM »
I've not read all the replies, but I've voted no simply because, personally, my nerves wouldn't be able to handle it, lol. Then again, I'm not a year away from FI, so I don't know if my answer would change closer to the time.

Just wanted to say, though, that the conception stats were interesting to see. The other "problem" that you may not have considered is also that the further in you get in the 3rd group, the higher the potential risk of conceiving a child with special needs. I'm not sure where your wife is in the 2nd group, but this may also be something to consider if she's close to that edge.

 

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