Author Topic: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?  (Read 7323 times)

Roland of Gilead

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All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« on: August 23, 2016, 07:48:31 AM »
Some of you may have seen our homemade RV build, which we are currently living in full time while we travel the country.  Our plan is to do that for about 4 to 5 years, including a stint in Alaska, then purchase a used 38 to 44 foot sailboat and refit it for blue water sailing.

One twist I would like to try if the future sailboat has a bad inboard diesel is ripping out the engine and installing a small (2kW to 5kW) brushless motor (if an inboard with prop shaft).  In the space where the engine occupied, I would add a Tesla powerwall or something in the 20kW+ capacity.  Solar where possible, hopefully 800+ watts (we currently have 1100 on our RV) and possibly the ability to backdrive the brushless motor connected to the prop while under strong wind to recharge the battery bank (seems like this would work since modern boats sometimes have a towed generator).

The bank would be large enough to power electronics, refrigerator, and give about 3 to 5 hours of electric cruising for docking or navigating reefs.   Possibly we could carry our Honda EU2000i gas generator to use as an emergency auxiliary supply.

If we find a used sailboat with a bad engine, the seller may have knocked off $5,000 to $10,000 from the price because of that, which would be a bonus since we plan to have no engine (don't need to mention that!).  Depending on the price of the Tesla powerwall, it might end up even with a boat with a good diesel.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 08:19:47 AM »
It looks like it is doable. You have awesome build skills, so no problems there.

What you are describing is the typical electric car, with regenerative braking replaced with sail-time generator.

One thing I would worry about is the corrosive salt water on the battery pack and motor.

I believe the tesla powerwall is of smaller size, maybe you can use a couple of them. Also, does the powerwall come with an inverter, if so it may need modification since I believe most Marine electronics are 12V.


Roland of Gilead

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 08:49:50 AM »
In our RV we use a 4kW Magnum inverter/charger and a 24V battery bank.   They do make inverter/chargers which work on 48V banks too.  If the bank is some weird voltage, like 190VDC or something I could probably work up my own converter/charger.  I had thoughts of using a battery pack from a Volt or one of the other EV's but who knows what might be available in 4 to 5 years?  Certainly I do like the increased capacity and lower price that EV's have brought to the battery market.

Probably we would have wind power too (small 300 watt turbine on the transom).  Solar, wind, hydro, we would be a floating demo of green energy :-)

The positives aside from dealing with a cranky smelly diesel engine is we would not have to worry about bad fuel in other countries, or water in the fuel.   I have to think it would free up some space too, as even a 18HP Yanmar with the cooling exchanger and auxiliary components is not small.

I try to live in the moment and we just finished our RV and should enjoy it for awhile but it is tough to not want to start some new project  :-)

Cromacster

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 08:57:26 AM »
I don't know a whole lot on the matter, but this is a good read.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f114/why-not-electric-engine-powered-boats-4413.html

From what I understand with current technology the things you are going to run into are cost, battery size, space for panels and time to charge.  Fitting 800W worth of solar on a 38-40ft boat takes up a lot of space, even if you build a arch.  Then there's also SHTF situations where you may need to motor for more than a few hours. 

Of course batteries and solar technology will only improve in the future.  I would guess most cruising vessels in the future will have electric motors.

I try to live in the moment and we just finished our RV and should enjoy it for awhile but it is tough to not want to start some new project  :-)

If you're like me the planning, preparing, and building is the fun part.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 09:05:45 AM »

The positives aside from dealing with a cranky smelly diesel engine is we would not have to worry about bad fuel in other countries, or water in the fuel.   I have to think it would free up some space too, as even a 18HP Yanmar with the cooling exchanger and auxiliary components is not small.


My guess is an  electric motor which is rated for Marine conditions, will be far more reliable than an diesel.
So the electric motor wins over diesel on reliability, noise, smells and size advantages.


I try to live in the moment and we just finished our RV and should enjoy it for awhile but it is tough to not want to start some new project  :-)

If you're like me the planning, preparing, and building is the fun part.

So true.

Sailor Sam

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 09:12:49 AM »
That plan sounds pretty awesome.

My question would be your skill at sailing, and at reading the weather. Do you have an extensive background working aboard boats? Relying on sailpower alone takes a fair amount of dedicated skill, especially in Alaska. When you're on the ocean, Sod's Law likes to cavort with the imp of the perverse. Together they will drain the last of your juice just as a 2 week fog bank takes up residence over the entirety of Alaska. Or shut down your engine just when you need to hold the bow into the weather.

If you don't already have the background, I'd suggest some sailing workshops. Tell the instructors your plan, and they can help you assess and improve your ability to maneuver the boat on sail power alone. Make an honest assessment of your skills. If they pass muster, great. If you have any doubt at all, maybe stick an emergency trolling motor on the transom.

Jack

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 09:22:09 AM »
An electric drivetrain run off batteries in normal operation sounds fine, but if I were designing it I'd include a diesel (not gasoline) backup generator (sized appropriately to drive the boat in series hybrid fashion if necessary).

I don't know what the state of the art is in marine-grade motors, but a reasonably-modern diesel shouldn't be all that smelly. Even better, with a diesel engine you can use biodiesel (which actually makes ecological and economic sense, unlike ethanol produced from stuff other than sugar cane). If you do that, your exhaust will smell like fried food!

adamb

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 10:18:30 AM »
I've thought about this, as I love to go sailing but don't want to rely on a gas motor. You will need marine quality batteries (not sure if the powerwall qualifies) but there are good lithium marine batteries out there. This had definitely been done to the point where batteries can support the whole boat and 30-60 minutes of heavy burn on the engine going against the current. Unfortunately Lithium can't hold enough energy to replace gas for trans ocean journeys if you're a motor sailer (unless you tried to replace the lead ballast with lithium and converted the entire boat into a floating solar panel, which actually could be amazing... but obnoxiously expensive).

DebtFreeinPhilly

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 04:19:38 PM »
I've been sailing most of my life. Here is my two bits on this:

1. Maneuvering under wind power alone is not difficult to accomplish. Its just really annoying because many times you have to circle back around to make another attempt at docking, navigating a reef/sandbar, or avoiding shipping lanes. I would say practice a lot and take lessons.

2. A 38 foot sailboat doesn't have enough deck space to hold all the PV cells required to do what you want to do. You are going to have to make a wind/solar/hydro system. Also keep in mind that while under sail power, anything you drag or have in the water decreases your progress of ground (POG) significantly.

3. Sailing diesel engines are very efficient. If its smelly down below, then your blowers aren't working well. Plus, you're hot water is made from the diesel engine running. If you remove the diesel engine you will have to add a HW heater to your vessel.

4. If you go forward with your idea, which I think is actually doable, I would have an outboard gas engine attached to the transom for docking and keeping the boat into the wind. And if you have an inflatable dinghy you can use the engine on it as well.

5. Buy a bigger boat. You can get an old 45' ocean ketch for cheap, especially since you don't care if the engine works. You will have more room for batteries and other things.

6. Plan on dry-docking the boat while you do the engine retrofit. Working on the propeller shaft, engine linkup, etc. while in the water is not fun. Plus if you need to punch a new hole in the hull, its easier to do when its not in the water.

This all being said, I think its an awesome idea and 100% doable. Cost efficient might be another issue! Best of luck and definitely keep us all updated on your journey.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2016, 05:14:56 PM »
Thanks for the replies everyone, especially your on hand exerience bhleigh.

Our background in sailing is mostly using our little 17 foot Montgomery (we were just out today on Carlyle lake in Illinois when a small storm blew in and it was GREAT...pulled 6.8 knots surfing a wave on broad reach and 5.4 knots close hauled, which is right at the hull speed for our boat).  I can dock our 17 footer under sail but that is a different world from a 40 footer.

We have had some experience on larger boats in Puget Sound and have taken 5 courses including blue water sailing for a week on a 38 Beneteau (but in the Sound, so simulated blue water :-) ).  We plan on crewing somewhere for a couple of months before we make a purchase of a larger boat, both to get more experience and find out if we can handle it.

I like the idea of a auxiliary outboard and using it for the tender would be perfect.  I am not against a 45' boat but definitely want to stay under 50 feet.  I think the marine vs non-marine for lithium battery technology is not an issue.  I would research that of course.  The electronics in the battery management system might not be environmentally hardened and you may need to do some conformal coating and other things.

Sailor Sam

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 05:57:22 PM »
Sounds like a solid learning plan!

I thought of a few more things.

1. I suggest taking a class called STCW Basic Safety Traininig. It's aimed at professional mariners, but it has invaluable information for folks who want to blue water sail. You'll get hands on experience putting out fires with extinguishers and hoses, popping a life raft and crawl into it, and donning an immersion suit.

2. Start thinking about how you will navigate. Modern navigational electronics Do Not Like intermittent power, or dirty power. Learning how to shoot the sun will probably come in handy. If you don't already know celestial navigation, consider taking a course. It takes a fair bit of practice to learn, and maintain, the skill.

3. Buying a used life raft is fine, as long as it's been inspected. If the inspection sticker ain't current, it shouldn't go on your boat. Buing a used immersion suit is a little sketchier. Equivalent to buying a used car seat for a kid. Some folks are okay with that, and some folks aren't. You should ponder which side you're on, and purchase accordingly.

4. Make everyone aboard has the strength to pull an unconscious person back aboard. If someone doesn't have the strength, get some sort of device to assist.   

PFHC

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 06:52:48 PM »
This sounds like a fun idea! I have a few ideas for you to consider. Here's my background to maybe lend some credence to what I'm saying:

I'm a marine engineer and have been on the water in about every imaginable type of craft since 2001. This includes 11 continuous months on a sailboat. I also owned an offgrid solar home for 3 years. So, here's my take:

  • Yes, it would work, but whether it is practical, that's another question. You are going to have a challenge providing much propulsion for your vessel with the current battery banks, even a Powerwall. Boats are incredibly inefficient, especially a blue water sailboat. They are heavy and built for stability not speed (read massively inefficient). I think you may be able to propel the boat for a short period, but not enough to make the colossal expenditure worthwhile.
  • Having a propulsion engine in a blue water sailboat is not just for docking. It is a big safety thing. Sure, they did it back in the day without motors, but those people were SAILORS, born on the deep blue sea. Today, we are lacking much of the skill to make it happen. It can be used to keep your bow to the waves in bad weather, help you make way when becalmed, and get you out of trouble (think a lee shore). Terribly choppy day and everyone is feeling under the weather? Put up your main sail and slow steam into the wind. It makes for a much nicer ride. So, my biggest beef is that while an electric motor is more reliable than a diesel, the entire system needs to be looked at. Reliability is an interesting beast in that it works like this: let's say your diesel engine is 90% reliable, your transmission is 99%, and your prop is 100%. You calculate the system reliability by multiplying. So, you end up with an 89% reliability for the system. When you look at your proposed system, you are introducing many more essential parts. Solar panels: 99%, wind generator: 90%, hydro (which would be a significant drag): 80%, charger: 95%, battery bank: 95% = overall system reliability: 68%. I can attest to this being reality from my experience with owning a solar home. You are constantly working on something. Add in the wild and unpredictable vagaries of blue water sailing and you would have some challenges on your hands. So, long story short, you want reliable back up propulsion. I think the jury is out on whether your proposed system is actually more reliable. Also consider that the power density of diesel is like infinity times more than it is for current battery technology.
  • Marinization. This is a big deal. Salt water eats everything for breakfast. If it is not designed for use in a marine environment from the get go, you will have some significant challenges to get it there. I would bet you could count on doubling the cost of everything just to make it marine rated. And no, marine rating is not a crock. It is necessary. I've seen non-marine electronics used offshore and have them be useless in as little as a year.
  • Your idea for having a small generator as backup to charge you batteries is clever, but could potentially be inefficient. One would have to do a close calculation to see if you actually come out ahead. I suspect not. You lose power as you transfer power made by the motor to electricity, then move the electricity around from generator to charger to batteries to propulsion. There are losses in all of that, especially so with DC. Even if you went with AC, you would have the added reliability concern of the inverters, and losses there as well. If you just took that same small gas motor and had it transfer that power directly to a prop, you would only be looking at the losses in the shafting and prop. Yes, the gas engine generator runs on its max efficiency curve when generating (if well designed), and gas propulsion is a bit more variable (especially offshore), but the same variability and inefficiency affects the electric propulsion. And I understand you gain a bunch of free energy from the sun, wind, and hydro, but I don't foresee that being a net positive.
  • Charging. Like others mentioned, when you are using the propulsion, you will never be able to charge quickly enough for it to be available all the time. You may be able to use it in short burst, then wait a day or two for it to charge, but I think that would be best case scenario.
  • Fire. Nothing is scarier and more deadly than fire on a boat. Lithium ion is touchy for that. Maybe see if anyone has been able to marinize a lithium ion battery. Lead acid is less of a concern, but they are heavy, huge, and a pain in the ass. If they are used for power (i.e. in a solar house or for propulsion) they HAVE to be recharged fully after every discharge or they are done in a month. They also HAVE to be equalized monthly or they are done in a year.

Now, I'm not trying to take a dump on your dream! I think its a super fun idea. I love it. I just know they have been looking at this type of thing for a while and it has not proven practical... yet. At least not with battery power. Now straight electric propulsion, with small batteries for auxiliaries, has been around for decades. Just search diesel-electric ships. I'm not sure if you are the mathy engineering type, but with a the right data, a bunch of time, and a solid spreadsheet, you could model this all out and see if it is indeed practical. I am just highly suspect, especially since I think it will be wildly expensive.

If you want to do a fuel free sailboat, then just do it like the old schoolers did. Go only sail power. When it comes to marine, I am a firm believer in the KISS principle. If you don't need the added headache of diesel or battery power, then scrap it. I know this goes counter to what I was saying up in #2, but with the right application of effort and education, you could make it a reality. People like Bernard Montessier have done it. There are a several tallships in the US that go on sail power alone (some use a small skiff to assist in difficult situations) that you could volunteer on to gain the needed knowledge of how to do everything via sailpower. It would not only make you a legitimate badass, it would also cement your position in the Mustachian Hall of Fame!

If you do it either option, you had better make a post and let us know how it goes!

PS - Diesels are not hard to work on. Super easy. They need fuel, air, and compression. That's it! If she won't run, it's one of those.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 07:44:58 PM by PFHC »

Roland of Gilead

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 07:32:10 PM »
You guys are bringing up some good points!

I won't get discouraged yet, because everyone told us we would not be able to build an RV, and then they said we would never finish it.  They said you can't get enough solar to run an air conditioner...we run our 6000 BTU unit off of the sun nearly every day for 4 to 5 hours on our 1100 watts of panels.

We have a lot of time to mull this over, as we will not buy until we do some serious crewing on a big sailboat and it won't be until we have spent a few years driving our RV around the lower 48 and Alaska. 

I can address a few of the points now though.

1)  Lithium is already being used safely and in large banks on some sailboats.   On the cruising forum there is a bazillion page thread on Lithium batteries (mostly Lithium Iron Phosphate).  A lot of work has gone into making a safe, marine rated BMS and I think there are a few engineers there who sell a kit of sorts.

2)  You really need very little power to make way in calm seas on a sunny day.  If you keep your speed well below the maximum hull speed, even 200 watts can push you at several knots.  One of the blue water sailing couples (I forget who...the Pardeys?) actually scull their boat with an oar at a couple of knots.  What takes a lot of power is powering through chop or trying to get close to the maximum hull speed, because you are moving an immense wall of water in front of the displacement hull.

3)  I am not sure I would really care about the inefficiency in the backup gen, since it is used for backup.   Even so, the small inverter generators produce about 6kW-hr per gallon of gasoline (there are small diesel generators too).  With 10 gallons of fuel, you could produce 1kW for about three days continuous which would propel you at 4 to 6 knots (about 240 to 360 miles) in calm seas.  This is assuming you get no solar during that time and no wind.  So obviously you are not going to make it to Hawaii from California on just your generator, but you could possibly get out of the doldrums.

Another idea that might work is towing a solar array on some sort of inflatable party raft or pontoon boat.   1100 watts fits on a 10 foot by 6 foot section of our RV roof so I could see some possibility of a towed solar array that would expand the sailboat solar to several kW on becalmed sunny days.  Or use the flexible solar panels they have recently developed fashioned into a "solar sail" that you raise in place of the jib or main and direct toward the sun on windless days.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 07:43:22 PM by Roland of Gilead »

DebtFreeinPhilly

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 07:47:48 PM »
Doldrums sparked another idea...desalinater. I have not had to use one because most of my sailing has been racing, close shore offshore racing, so we carried all the water we needed. Look into the power consumption of the bigger items like the desalinator, navigation (as mentioned above), and other major items.

Anyways good luck!!

PFHC

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 08:11:03 PM »
1)  Lithium is already being used safely and in large banks on some sailboats.   On the cruising forum there is a bazillion page thread on Lithium batteries (mostly Lithium Iron Phosphate).  A lot of work has gone into making a safe, marine rated BMS and I think there are a few engineers there who sell a kit of sorts.
That's exciting to know! How's the price point?

Quote
2)  You really need very little power to make way in calm seas on a sunny day.  If you keep your speed well below the maximum hull speed, even 200 watts can push you at several knots.  One of the blue water sailing couples (I forget who...the Pardeys?) actually scull their boat with an oar at a couple of knots.  What takes a lot of power is powering through chop or trying to get close to the maximum hull speed, because you are moving an immense wall of water in front of the displacement hull.
Agreed. In fact you can move most boats with just swimming behind them... if it is dead calm. Problem is, that is rare. Very rare. Get a little tiny head wind, contrary current, or some waves, that goes out the window. Especially with a larger sailboat. That is more what I'm talking about. If you are caught on a lee shore with 10 knot winds in your teeth... 200 watts is not going to do it for you.

Quote
3)  I am not sure I would really care about the inefficiency in the backup gen, since it is used for backup.   Even so, the small inverter generators produce about 6kW-hr per gallon of gasoline (there are small diesel generators too).  With 10 gallons of fuel, you could produce 1kW for about three days continuous which would propel you at 4 to 6 knots (about 240 to 360 miles) in calm seas.  This is assuming you get no solar during that time and no wind.  So obviously you are not going to make it to Hawaii from California on just your generator, but you could possibly get out of the doldrums.
I guess my point would be that the fuel would be better used as propulsion alone, not charging. And I think your estimate of a 1kW (1.3 hp) motor propelling you at 4 to 6 knots may be a bit aggressive. A 9.9 hp (7.4 kW) on a moderate sized sailboat is lucky to make 5 kts. And remember all this talk is in fine weather... which can be at a premium on the water. A good rule of thumb when designing anything made for the water is to design for the worst case scenario.

Quote
Another idea that might work is towing a solar array on some sort of inflatable party raft or pontoon boat.   1100 watts fits on a 10 foot by 6 foot section of our RV roof so I could see some possibility of a towed solar array that would expand the sailboat solar to several kW on becalmed sunny days.  Or use the flexible solar panels they have recently developed fashioned into a "solar sail" that you raise in place of the jib or main and direct toward the sun on windless days.
Love it! That's really thinking outside the boat. Just keep in mind that salt spray reduces the efficiency of solar cells, so it would be worthwhile to do a daily freshwater wash down.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 05:32:24 AM »

That's exciting to know! How's the price point?


Still not great, about $0.30 a watt-hr.

Syonyk

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2016, 07:40:04 PM »
A friend of mine did an electric conversion on his sailboat.  Flooded lead acid, if I recall properly.

Forget the PowerWall.  You can't buy one, it won't work for what you want (they speak ModBus or CanBus, the protocol is unknown, and they operate on a 400v string voltage), Tesla won't sell you one directly, and I doubt it would last a year in salt.

Your option, if you're on a budget, is flooded lead acid.  Keep them properly sealed up, since salt water and battery acid do not get along.

If you're made of money, you can do it with lithium iron phosphate.

Good luck with the motor/generator concept - I don't think you'll get much out of a proper turning backwards for the drag you'll create.  They're directional.

IIRC, my friend sold his (working) diesel and mostly paid for the electric conversion.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 07:56:01 PM »
It seems like a multi hull would be a more efficient shape & also offer more surface area for solar panels. 

Grog

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2016, 04:31:53 AM »
I don't know nothing about boats, but I vaguely remember from an university exercise in power generation that in the boat world actually there are many application for hydrogen fuel cell? As a backup and to power your electric motor? Or maybe just for the auxiliary consumers like laptop, navigation, etc?
I've no idea just throwing it out. Awesome project btw.
I found this link for smaller units:
http://www.bwsailing.com/bw/cruising-news/fuel-cell-basics/

BBub

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2016, 07:13:20 AM »
A few sail makers are experimenting with solar film woven into the sails.  They don't seem to be widely available yet.  Given your time frame of several years, you could keep an eye on this technology and consider incorporating it into your design.  Your goal is definitely achievable.. It'll come with some trade-offs, but it can be done.

http://www.uksailmakers.com/news/2016/4/11/uk-powers-first-zero-emissions-yacht?rq=solar

Bateaux

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2016, 05:53:46 AM »
I've been studying the idea of a diesel hybrid sailing vessel myself.  There are companies in Florida that will do the refit  Very expensive but very nice when they are done.  You can do it yourself as well.  Search  Sailing Uma a blog I follow.




Emg03063

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Re: All electric sailboat for world cruising...thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2016, 07:02:18 AM »
I have absolutely no experience in this area--just one thought and that is to build a sealed lead acid battery bank into a keel.  No idea of the practicality, but the batteries could do double duty as ballast there.