Author Topic: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents  (Read 10454 times)

Stache In Training

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Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« on: November 17, 2013, 09:57:15 PM »
Here's my dilemma.  My parents taught me how to be really frugal.  But now they are living a life of waste and consumerism, and complain about money problems.  I have indirectly (meaning I haven't actually seen their finances) figured out that I have more money than them. They've said that they don't think they can ever retire.  I emailed them the 'best of MMM' links, and lovingly asked them to do me a favor and read it, but have received no response.  I understand that you can't make people change, and they have to decide to change.  But I figured if they started reading MMM, the light would turn on again. 

I've done the math, and my wife and I should be able to retire (well, really FI) in 10-15 years.  I know that if at that point, when I say "I'm retiring," they'll say "How'd you do that? Why didn't you share any of those tricks with us?"  But I'm trying to share it now.  I live far away, but am visiting them shortly for Thanksgiving.  So any ideas on how to share the "early retirement bug?"  Or in their case, the retirement bug/anti-consumerism lifestyle, without offending anyone?  How do I bring it up in person?

meadow lark

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 10:44:16 PM »
I think you've done what you can.  In the natural course of conversation you might mention any changes you've made, "We got rid of cable and are using that money to add to our retirement accounts" but share it as something about YOU -  not them.  If they are interested they will bite, if not, drop it. 

Khan

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 10:50:01 PM »
Quote
They've said that they don't think they can ever retire.

"Oh dearest me, I don't think I'll ever be able to quit my job." -them
"I hate working for the man, being under somebody's thumb, I think I've found out a way to get my freedom from this existence." -you
"What?" -them
"With a combination of frugality; placing an emphasis on conscious spending(is this McShit worth it?), and some fire and forget investing... I think I may earn my freedom." -you

And on from there...

iris lily

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 11:25:26 PM »
I think it's interesting that they taught you to be frugal but they themselves are spendthrift. That is highly unusual. Tell us about that.

Adventine

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2013, 02:17:23 AM »
I think it's interesting that they taught you to be frugal but they themselves are spendthrift. That is highly unusual. Tell us about that.

I'm also interested in the story behind that. Was it a case of them giving you good frugal advice that they never followed themselves? Or were they truly frugal in their younger days and only recently got sucked into a spendy lifestyle?

Villanelle

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2013, 06:28:06 AM »
I think that unless they express interest, a "Talk" is presumptuous and ill-advised.  You dangled the hook and they didn't bite, so as hard as it is, I think you need to let it go.  Next time they bring it up ("Sigh, we'll never be able to retire?"), you can tell them you found a great system for yourself and a mindset that makes it pretty easy to save, and ask if they want to sit down and talk about it and maybe look at their finances, but if they decline, I think you need to let it go. 

KMMK

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2013, 06:57:23 AM »
Accidentally leave a copy of "Your Money or Your Life" or similar book of your choice at their house?  I'm tempted to do this with my sister-in-law.

jrhampt

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2013, 09:35:22 AM »
There's not really anything more you can do about this.  I guess for me the parallel is that a lot of my family members are evangelical Christians and are big on trying to proselytize.  I get why they are excited and want to share with everyone, but if someone isn't interested in hearing it, they're not going to listen, and then you're going to start annoying them if you don't shut up about it.

Stache In Training

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 09:58:14 PM »
I think it's interesting that they taught you to be frugal but they themselves are spendthrift. That is highly unusual. Tell us about that.

Growing up they were super frugal: taught me all about money (I could balance a checkbook when I was about 6), the power of interest and compounding, never carry a credit card balance, etc; taught me to turn the lights off when leaving a room, don't let the water run while brushing my teeth, closing the blinds once the sun goes down, etc.  Some of this they still do, so don't get me wrong, they're better than the majority of Americans.  However now they eat out almost everyday for dinner, and I'm pretty sure everyday for lunch. Go out for ice cream all the time. Set their house to about 55 in the summer. They now have cable and sit and just watch TV all the time.  There is now a grandchild (not mine) that they went crazy buying premium things for.  So I think Mom to 5 is correct.  Now that they have paid off their house, and have an empty nest, there's extra money so they're going to spend it.  I think there may be a sense of entitlement: "We couldn't have this stuff before, so we deserve it now." 

I don't want to tell them they can't have nice things, but the problem is, I don't think they are saving anything.  As I said, I'm not exactly sure because I haven't seen finances, but from what I've gleaned, they have less than me, and I'm still "starting out."  I agree with people saying, you can't change them if they aren't interested.  But I was hoping they have just "forgotten."  Also, it's very hard to plan for my own FIRE, when I realize that since they are so bad, and my sibling is probably even worse, that I'm most likely going to end up paying for their retirement/care.  I of course will help out if I need to, but for planning my own FIRE, I need to know.  You know?

I agree with the Christian proselytize parallel, mentioned by jrhampt.  However as a Christian, if you can't convert someone, you don't become a non-Christian/not get into heaven.  In this case, if I can't get them to save, my FIRE may be jeopardized.

Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling.  So between, wanting my parents to not have to work till the end, and being a little selfish and watching out for my own FIRE, those are the main reason's I was wanting advice.

Zamboni

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 10:24:24 PM »
I understand where you are coming from.  Parents most definitely can become a financial burden on their children.

I have to bite my tongue with some regularity with my Dad and his wife, both of whom I adore.  They are similar to your parents in that they never saved enough (okay, never really saved much of anything:  Dad only had $17K saved for retirement when I was in my 20's and that was the last we talked about it.  Dad's wife has shared that she declared bankruptcy as least once prior to meeting my Dad.)  Since then he's told me he has no money and will never be able to retire.  But, lately they've gotten some substantial windfalls (six figures at least) from deceased friends and family.  Did they save any of this money?  Honestly I don't know, and I hope they did.  But it appears to me that a substantial portion has been frittered on major house renovations and vacations while they both continue to work as Dad pushes 70.  It's their money, though, so I keep quiet.  My Dad at least appears to really enjoy his work now that he's been able to cut back on the hours a bit in order to be able to get his social security checks.

Your parents might be banking on just coasting on social security.  And hopefully that and their savings will be enough to get them by . . .

jrhampt

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 12:08:29 PM »
"between, wanting my parents to not have to work till the end, and being a little selfish and watching out for my own FIRE, those are the main reason's I was wanting advice."

I totally, totally identify with your problem...I have the same worries about my parents, who are renters (no paid-for home to help lower expenses in retirement and hedge against inflation) and have maybe $50k in retirement savings as they enter their sixties.  They will work until they are unable to; that is what happens when you refuse to plan ahead. We do not have a duty to support our parents in the luxe lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.  I am willing to help in some ways, but I will also take some lessons from watching my spouse deal with his substance abusing, non-retirement-saving, chronically underemployed parent -- there is Medicaid, lower-cost/ subsidized elderly housing, Social Security, and/or food stamps to provide a basic subsistence-level lifestyle.  My spouse handles all of his paperwork for him, takes him out to eat, pays his phone bill, and sometimes covers some additional minor things beyond that.  However, he is not fully supporting his parent by any means.  So if you want to set aside a small budget for helping your parents later on in life, that is one thing you can plan for -- but I am certainly not planning on doubling the size of my retirement stash so that I can fully support my parents.  It is one of the things I consider when I think about how much of a "cushion" I may want beyond FI, however.

Argyle

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 12:13:27 PM »
Is there something to suggest that they don't have much in savings, beyond the fact that they're spending more money than they used to?  It is possible that they've continued to be frugal to the extent that their spending is an indication that they have a lot of savings.  If you follow me.

I think the first step is somehow to find out exactly how they're situated, financially.  After that you'll know whether you really need to worry.

Stache In Training

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2013, 12:51:55 PM »
Some jobs have a standard amount deducted, and then you are guaranteed a pension (teachers in my state).
One of my parents is a teacher, so there is that, which will help.  However the other one once got burnt with giving to a 401k (the owner was taking all the money, and nothing was invested.)  So not sure if he thinks it's best to keep it or not.

Is there something to suggest that they don't have much in savings, beyond the fact that they're spending more money than they used to?  It is possible that they've continued to be frugal to the extent that their spending is an indication that they have a lot of savings.  If you follow me.

I think the first step is somehow to find out exactly how they're situated, financially.  After that you'll know whether you really need to worry.
What I know (and earlier reffered to as "indirectly figured out", is I had recently lost my job, and told them not to worry, that I had a year's worth of living expenses.  They said 'wow, I don't think we have that much.'  So there you are, not just spending more, but not really saving.

So yes, I know the first step is to find out exactly how they are situated, but I was at a loss as to how to go about asking; without offending them, since the culture is "you don't talk to family about money."

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 01:45:45 PM »
I struggle with similar issues with my parents and I know how tough it can be to have these types of conversations. And to complicate matters, it's a big blow to someone's pride to think that they have to take money advice from their kids. A parent wants to be the one to help their kids, not the other way around.

However, it's not impossible, but you have to remember that it takes time to change behavior. I work in a field that depends heavily on change management to get results and I've found that you can't expect to win any converts to an idea in a day or through a single conversation. It takes sustained effort, time, and patience. It's also a balancing act of pushing the idea without being pushy, if that makes sense. If you push too hard, people tend to dig in their heels. But, if you can introduce them to the ideas and allow them to come to their own conclusions (it's even best when they think it's their own idea), then the idea will be more likely to stick.

While your parents might not have responded to the articles, they may have planted a seed. In my own dealings with my parents and sibling, it's literally taken years for them to come around to some things. But, they eventually came around!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:51:39 PM by Tetsuya Hondo »

MrsPete

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2013, 03:59:44 PM »
This is a topic I've put serious thought into, since I'm in a not-identical-but-similar situation.  I don't think a good answer exists.  You can't make adults spend wisely. 

I will absolutely retire at a younger age than my parents, and I know that I already have more money saved.  Like you, my one saving grace is that one parent has a moderate pension -- they won't go hungry, and they won't be sitting in the dark . . . but they also won't be traveling, etc. as much as they might like.  However, unlike your situation, my parents are pretty frugal. 

Like I said, I don't think a good answer exists, but here are my strategies:

- I don't talk about money.  Ever.  They don't really know I've saved as much as I have, and it's going to stay that way.  In fact, only my husband and I know what we have -- we aren't telling the kids either.  It's no one else's business.   
- We are over-saving, but in our minds it's about security (security in the face of future inflation), so we don't intend to start spending wildly once the kids are out of college or once we're retired.  As such, I'm going to try to get them to think that when we travel or spend on something large, it's a result of having saved and that it's a bit of a sacrifice.
- In the future, if we end up paying expenses for them, well, to some extent that's a child's duty; however, we won't just give them cash.  We'll pay bills or bring in bags of groceries. 
- They can never live with me.  Ever.  Okay, that has less to do with money and more to do with personality and maintaining the relationship -- we're fine together now, but living under the same roof would be a disaster.  I expect to continue to live in the same town, and I will visit every day, cook, clean, drive here and there . . . but I'm going back to my own place every evening.

I'm very interested in how other people are balancing family obligations with frugality.

Stache In Training

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2013, 10:49:09 PM »
So I talked with my parents today about an un-related topic.  However, my mom asked me to help her look at their electricity bill while I'm visiting.  I'm hoping maybe this is an "olive branch."  Hopefully this will be a useful segue (segway?), and it can feel like their idea.  I'll let you know if I happen upon any great ways to not offend.  Thanks for your help so far.  Any other advice is appreciated.

higgins2013

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2013, 08:58:18 AM »
My elderly parents bought a very expensive Mercedes this year, trading in a barely-used 2-year-old Lexus.  My 82 year-old mother's still redoing their two homes.  They never set-up college accounts for their grandchildren, and were quite parsimonious towards their kids, given their assets.  It was disturbing when they aggressively encouraged our underqualified son to apply to a $65,000/year "classy" college, as likely full-pay candidate with no merit scholarship, with no offer to subsidize that tuition.  Luckily we nipped that.  They gave son $500 as a HS graduation gift, by the way.

Zamboni

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2013, 11:12:42 AM »
^I used to live in a neighborhood full of retired people just like this.  It was hard to understand for me as it doesn't reflect my values, but I assure you they have plenty of company in the new-car-buying-house-redecorating-retired-wealthy group.

$500 is a huge HS graduation gift.

Tyler

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »
The most effective way to share a positive message is to speak as little as possible and lead by example. 

Gray Matter

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2013, 01:15:21 PM »
We've had a different, but related, situation with my in-laws.  They retired at 55 (by choice) and started running out of money less than 10 years later.  Oldest sibling (DH's brother) started subsidizing them and asked the other two siblings to kick in.  We had extensive conversations about it and finally said no, because at the time, they were in their early 60s, were able bodied, and we thought subsidizing them allowed them to limp along at a time when they ought to be going back to work.  Plus, it would mean signing up for it for the rest of their lives, which could be 20 to 30 years.  It would have also meant saving less for our own retirement or our kids' college, and we were unwilling to do that. 

Our decision is not because we are cold-hearted (I hope), but because we really didn't think it was in anybody's best interest, including theirs.  We did explore other options, like providing a bit of capital to help them start a small business (think hot dog cart at the beach type thing), having them live with us for a few years and paying all their living expenses and providing a small income in exchange for child care, so they could rent their own place, bank the rental income, and not have to draw on their assets for a few years.  They were unwilling to discuss any of these options, which is certainly their prerogative, but that didn't make me any more inclined to solve their problem for them by sending them money every month.

I do not believe that children necessarily owe their parents anything.  I would allow a parent to live with me and make sure they were fed, etc., but I believe my responsibility is primarily to my children.  My in-laws provided basic things for their kids, but once they could work (e.g., mow lawns or babysit at age 13), they no longer paid for clothes, toiletries, activities, etc.  And they did not pay for college or anything that would give the kids a leg up.

As it turns out, my MIL's sister passed away last year and left her enough money to allow them to get by, and though sad at the loss of DH's aunt, I'm grateful that she was a saver and left it to her sister.

ritchie70

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2013, 01:48:47 PM »
We've had a different, but related, situation with my in-laws.  They retired at 55 (by choice) and started running out of money less than 10 years later....

My wife and I have been subsidizing her mother (parents are divorced) for maybe three years now. We bought a condo for her to live in and pay the monthly HOA fees. We also do her laundry, because the laundry room is in the basement and she's unable to do the stairs.

I'm not sure I would do it if I had it to do over, because between mortgage and HOA it's $700 a month. The thing is that she has absolutely no savings, no assets at all really. Personal property and a 10 year old Oldsmobile. She was drowning under a mountain of mostly credit card debt that she escaped with bankruptcy and now lives off a combination of our generosity and her $700 a month of Social Security.

Of course she has premium cable and is constantly buying stuff. There's always a new towel or sheet or something in the wash.

Sometimes she acts like she's doing us a favor because we're going to own this condo after she's gone. Argh! What a misunderstanding of the situation! That would only be true if she were paying fair market rent.

I'm really hoping that she can't drive any more before the Oldsmobile gives out, because I know my wife will want to help her out with that, too.

I feel guilty but there's a little part of me that is hoping something happens to her in the next decade or so. Her grandson (our nephew) lives with her, and I'd like him to graduate from high school in that school district, because it's a pretty good one. That's another 6 or 7 years, but after that.... like I said, I feel bad about it but I can't help it.

Zamboni

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2013, 02:40:04 PM »
Quote
Sometimes she acts like she's doing us a favor because we're going to own this condo after she's gone. Argh! What a misunderstanding of the situation!

Barring a major health catastrophe or violent act of nature wiping out everything someone has worked hard to earn, I view those who file bankruptcy as "takers."  Sometimes the taking is out of ignorance and sometimes it's out of a sense of entitlement.  Sounds like your MIL is in the latter category (possibly both categories.)

2527

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2013, 05:08:25 PM »
I guess we're all gonna be what we're gonna be.

iris lily

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2013, 10:56:19 PM »
We've had a different, but related, situation with my in-laws.  They retired at 55 (by choice) and started running out of money less than 10 years later....

Parents who are able bodied but out of money that young, gads. And expect help from you. That's a tough situation.
Were they part of that group who ran out of money when the 2008  crash came? A lot were caught in that.

This is one reason I'm not retiring too early while I still like my job. Ya never know.

Gray Matter

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2013, 05:08:24 AM »
Were they part of that group who ran out of money when the 2008  crash came? A lot were caught in that.

It was a combination of factors for them, but not the crash of 2008--they ran into problems before then.  Primarily being too conservative and then too risky and having too much pride.  FIL always said he was going to retire at age 55, so when he was laid off around age 48, and was only able to find a lower-paying job (and therefore save less), rather than postponing retirement, he just by-god retired when he said he was going to.  I think he was trying to save face with his circle of friends.

When he was young, he invested way too conservatively (annuities).  Then when he retired, he invested way too risky (picked one foreign currency to invest in, etc.).  He also didn't take into account (enough) inflation.

The mistake my MIL made was in not understanding any of it, or caring to.  I think if she'd been involved in decision-making, between the two of them, they would have made better decisions.

The hardest part is that their decisions and their lifestyle is really none of our business.  But when people ask you for money, it starts to feel like your business.  (And truthfully, they never asked us for money.  But they asked the oldest child, and after some time, he got tired of being the only one to contribute, and so he came to us.)

Anatidae V

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2013, 03:00:33 AM »
I got around this, being fresh out of university, by going to most of the adults I know and just straight up asking them how they handle money. Then questioning whatever seemed like a stupid idea. This was before MMM, but I started working my way through every book I could get my hands on the moment I graduated. Since none of them had ever gone bankrupt or had the electricity turned off as far as I was aware, I assumed some of them would have some bright ideas. I may have had a small panic when my parents informed me their house is almost paid off (they've been there nearly 20 years) but they have no other assets. Dad then informed me he's got a decent pension coming when he retires, so although I don't know the details of this, I feel fairly safe in their newly spendy lifestyle (heading towards empty-nester-dom has resulted in them using a local cheap gym, a new road bike for Dad, an actual overseas holiday and a bathroom renovation!)
Meanwhile, I think overall I have better financial literacy than quite a few of the adults I know (young and assumes she knows everything, awful stereotype I know :) )

chasesfish

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2013, 04:23:44 AM »
I'm really enjoying reading this thread.  My wife and I both have these issues with our parents.  We would probably do quite a few things for her parents, but not as much for mine.

We have tried and encouraged as much as we could about retirement savings, but I don't think they will ever "believe in investing".


Stache In Training

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2013, 08:18:35 PM »
It's nice to know I'm not alone in this problem.  To give you an update on my specific situation, the heating bill did make for a good segue.  So I can't really give too much advice, other than, that in the past, my mother knew I was looking at investing, and told me to let her know if she ever found a "no load" fund, to let her know.  So I told her about vanguard.  (that may be a good technique some of you could use; "hey, look at this company I found, that doesn't charge commissions..." Something to that affect.)

So I found out that yes, there is a pension coming for being a teacher, and they have started using a financial advisor, to invest in Roth's and are in the playing catch-up phase, though they did not think they were maxing contributions.  but hey, something is better than nothing.

The fee structure is odd, apparently the fees lessen the longer they hold the account?  Anyone know of anything like this?  How's it work?  I think it was american funds.  Obviously I'd like them to switch to vanguard, so fees aren't eating away, but if they feel more comfortable using someone, at least they are finally taking an interest.

Anyone else do any talking over thanksgiving?

ritchie70

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 09:07:38 AM »
Quote
Sometimes she acts like she's doing us a favor because we're going to own this condo after she's gone. Argh! What a misunderstanding of the situation!

Barring a major health catastrophe or violent act of nature wiping out everything someone has worked hard to earn, I view those who file bankruptcy as "takers."  Sometimes the taking is out of ignorance and sometimes it's out of a sense of entitlement.  Sounds like your MIL is in the latter category (possibly both categories.)

I don't really understand how it is that my wife is related to them. To hear my wife tell it, she's been the "mother" in the relationship since middle school, and mostly raised her younger siblings.

MIL got hideously upside down with credit cards - basically living off them, then juggling money in a frankly amazing fashion to keep the banks satisfied and the utilities on. She's now living off us and social security, and has no credit cards that we know of. We run a credit report on her now and then to find out what's going on with that side of things, because she's a terrible liar and generally unstable person.


melalvai

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Re: Advice needed: Having the talk with parents
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2013, 09:45:31 AM »
It's natural that you want to save them. They are your parents and you love them. Consider including "caring for parents" in your long-term plan, in case there comes a day when they can't work but haven't saved enough to retire. My parents have retired & have long-term care insurance, but my mother-in-law had several husbands, many troubles, and some bad choices during her life. I keep in the back of my mind that she could live with us one day and I asked my husband to tell her that she will always be welcome in our home. Even if I have to do some character-building of my own to be at peace with it. (She's a lovely woman, but the little things will bother me, I know from living with her son!)

That said, in your place I would be very curious about what changed. Consider investigating that with a spirit of curiosity-- not trying to change them, but to learn about them. Make it very clear that you are curious and not judgmental. Phrase your questions as non-threateningly as possible, and maybe preface the whole thing with a frank disclaimer of your curiosity and lack of judgmentalness.