Author Topic: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.  (Read 2839 times)

BTDretire

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A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« on: May 19, 2018, 06:29:50 PM »
Hi I'd like to do a poll, OK figured that out as a far it goes.
How do I post a Writable Openoffice spreadsheet for others to enter
their data, run 2 or 3 calculations and show them the answers to put
in the poll?
  Or if some, don't have the spreadsheet, maybe there an online Google Docs,
I don't know that spreadsheet, but... Heck I don't even know Openoffice very well!

 I want the poll taker to get a hold of their SS Statement and put those numbers into the OpenOffice Spreadsheet,
the spreadsheet will multiply to make it in today's dollars and divide by how many MMM working years to get an AVERAGE income in todays dollars.

Here's an example of the info that I would be asking others to produce, through the spreadsheet.
MMM working years                 >8<   
Inflation adjusted income   >$600,000<
Inflation adjusted AVERAGE  >$75,000<
Your FIRE Number             >$1,000,000<
Percent of FIRE income saved   >60%<
 A throw in, Percent of FIRE NW save each year. >7.5<
(I know that number will increase when you have 90% and the market is good.)
 
My goal: There is a thread about MMMers need to be priviledged to acheive a FIRE.
I'd like to know how priviledged we are, are the less priviledged still getting there?

It's multi pronged and I'm not sure this forum can find what I want.
Here are a few questions that would be helpful but hard to do in the poll, such as we can make on the forum.

 Seems I would want household income only for the years you have been saving. Not knowledgable of MMM but still saving toward a goal.
I would also need to know what percentage of FIRE income do you have?
 What is your FIRE number.

 If you have any ideas, please pass them along, I'm just now trying to decide
what I'm looking for, and how to do it.

 Would you participate?




ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 10:55:48 AM »
While I am certainly interested in looking at these results and would give my input, I do not have any advice for the technical questions you have posed. 

CptCool

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 08:31:13 AM »
I'd recommend using Google Forms saved to a Google Sheet  https://support.google.com/docs/answer/2917686?hl=en

The forms are used to capture the answers. The spreadsheet contains everyone's answers and all the calculations, etc. The spreadsheet can also be read-only for everyone except for you and shared easily.

mathlete

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 08:38:11 AM »
I'd recommend using Google Forms saved to a Google Sheet  https://support.google.com/docs/answer/2917686?hl=en

The forms are used to capture the answers. The spreadsheet contains everyone's answers and all the calculations, etc. The spreadsheet can also be read-only for everyone except for you and shared easily.

Totally agree with this!

Can't wait to see what you come up with OP.

BTDretire

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 11:56:05 AM »
Hi all,
I need your input, I kinda lost my goal.
I have a Google Sheets page started, Now I don't know what I want out of the data.
This started because of the "Priviledge Thread" Are we priviledged? How much?
Thus the US income quintile numbers in column M, for comparision.
 But, I'm not sure how to incorporate it.
 I have a problem with column (I), I want it to count only the cells that have data and not include those that have 0.
Any ideas?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SsaRfRx_DBF38MssIvYVP2WrAIwgNhPyZ8B7xaBqXfs/edit?pli=1#gid=0
btw, I added some income numbers for testing, these will be user input.

MDM

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 12:55:30 PM »
I have a problem with column (I), I want it to count only the cells that have data and not include those that have 0.
Any ideas?
Try =COUNTIF(F5:F43,">0").

That works in Excel.  Don't know about Sheets.

BTDretire

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 01:00:28 PM »
I have a problem with column (I), I want it to count only the cells that have data and not include those that have 0.
Any ideas?
Try =COUNTIF(F5:F43,">0").

That works in Excel.  Don't know about Sheets.

  Thanks MDM, That worked.
 Still requesting input for things to add.
 

SwordGuy

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 03:09:47 PM »
Is someone who gets a middle class job, keeps it, and spends every penny they make "privileged"?

What makes them "privileged"?   

Simply having a middle class job? 

Keeping it?   If they keep their job because they do their job and arent' an ass to those around them, does that make them "privileged"?

Now, someone with that middle class job decides to live below their means and invest the difference, and thus FIRE.   Did that make the "privileged"?

If I'm born poor, join the military and get promoted, get a free college education out of my service, then get a middle class job for however many more years it takes me to FIRE, am I "privileged"?    Exactly when did I get "privileged"?  Was it when I was getting shot at in Afghanistan?  Or dodging improvised explosive devices in Iraq?   If some of my after military income after my term of service comes from leaving half a leg or arm in one of those countries after being hit by a mortar round, am I "privileged"?  More or less "privileged" than someone with all their limbs in working order and no disability pay?

If the same life events happened to me, but I chose to spend all my income of booze and fast cars, would I be more or less "privileged"?

Seems to me you've totally confused FIRE with "privilege", whatever that actually happens to be.

FIRE is simply a choice about how one uses the resources one has, provided one has either avoided or gotten out of poverty, and therefore has the extra resources to invest with.






mathlete

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 03:35:00 PM »
SwordGuy, I think what OP is trying to look into is how much the role of high income plays in the pursuit of financial independence. High incomes are empirically related to privilege (I can point you to a post in another thread if you're interested in reading more), so that much is a given. The next step is to examine the relationship between high incomes and progress towards financial independence.

We can say that financial independence is a choice, but if it turns out (as it likely will) that it is largely a function of high incomes, I don't think we can make such a broad statement.

BTDretire, one thing I would say is to be explicit about whether you're asking for Gross or Net income. Probably gross, since I think that's what the quintiles are defined as. This would take some work, but if could gather the quintile income limits by year and put them into a table, you could write an excel function that determines what household income quintile a user was in for every given year. That way, you could measure the number and proportion of years spent in each quintile for each person, or maybe even compute something like a "weighted average quintile".


PDXTabs

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 11:01:00 PM »
If I'm born poor, join the military and get promoted, get a free college education out of my service, then get a middle class job for however many more years it takes me to FIRE, am I "privileged"?    Exactly when did I get "privileged"?  Was it when I was getting shot at in Afghanistan?  Or dodging improvised explosive devices in Iraq?   If some of my after military income after my term of service comes from leaving half a leg or arm in one of those countries after being hit by a mortar round, am I "privileged"?  More or less "privileged" than someone with all their limbs in working order and no disability pay?

I don't know, but you were privileged enough to get through the medical exam (which I can't pass) and have enough intelligence and education to not get screwed financially along the way (for profit college, etc). This is one of the privileges that my kids have. That is, their dad has been through university once and is very financially literate. I don't know where you got it from, maybe you're just lucky.

BTDretire

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 09:52:44 AM »
Hi all,

 The idea of  "priviledge" came up in a thread.
I'm using priviledge in this case to mean only that your
income is above the mean.
 And that started the idea of trying to find out,
Are the MMMers above the mean, if so how much.
And, are those closer to the mean income able to make FIRE and how long did/will it take?

 I'm still open to what data to collect. Help! :-)

 As far as what income, I'm going with gross income.
I suggest getting your SS statement, which is available online and using those
numbers. It's not perfect, because you may have income that is not taxed for SS.
However, that would usually be money you are making with the money you have saved,
that is our savings growing, not really income.
So I like the SS statement numbers.
 Here's the thread "priviledge" started in.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/fire-documentary-looking-for-diversity/

CptCool

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 11:13:51 AM »
I wouldn't use SS numbers. It doesn't include 401k contributions or IRA contributions that reduce taxable income, among other things.

It can be a good starting point to use that, but make sure to point out that it isn't true gross income.

MDM

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 11:26:50 AM »
I wouldn't use SS numbers. It doesn't include 401k contributions or IRA contributions that reduce taxable income, among other things.
Medicare wages (W-2 box 5) do include 401k/403b/457 and IRA contributions.  They don't include cafeteria plan health care deductions (e.g., insurance and HSA) and a few other things.

SwordGuy

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 12:14:38 PM »
SwordGuy, I think what OP is trying to look into is how much the role of high income plays in the pursuit of financial independence. High incomes are empirically related to privilege (I can point you to a post in another thread if you're interested in reading more), so that much is a given. The next step is to examine the relationship between high incomes and progress towards financial independence.

Reminds me of the federally funded study of stewardesses back in the 1960s or 1970s.   After gobs of money spent, they discovered that stewardesses were shaped like women are.  Some tall, some short, some slender, some not. Who would have ever suspected it?

Senator Proxmire gave that study a Golden Fleece Awards for being the stupidest usage of tax money that year.   He's dead, so you're probably safe from winning one of those awards if you apply for federal funding.   

I say that because, well, duh, it's absolutely dirt obvious that people who make way more than the median income can get to FI faster and easier if they choose to.   Truly, that's not worthy of "a study".   It's a given, like gravity.

Let's start with a number for purposes of illustration.  I'll pick $40,000.   That's not an arbitrary choice.    Justin at RootOfGood.com lives on $40,000 with a paid off house, but he has a $10,000 vacation travel budget.  So, can the multiple cruises for a family of 5 and the 9 week jaunts thru Europe for that same family of five, and add back in some rent, and we're back at $40,000.

Median family  income is about $59,000.   Toss out some taxes and we're talking about the ability to save $12,000 a year or more, or 20%.  That, according to https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ gives us 37 years to FI, or age 59 for someone who enters the workforce at age 22.
Not super early, but earlier than most manage, and definitely more securely than most manage.   

Of course, we're assuming that this family's income and expenses don't change other than keeping up with inflation.   What about people who choose not to increase their spending when they get a new raise?  Who choose to save and invest the new income instead of spend it on a fancy truck or fancy house?   Suddenly, their savings rate would be increasing and the time to FI would drop.   And, of course, once the kids are out on their own expenses drop even more, further speeding up the timeline to FI.

Equally obvious, if a household makes $100,000 instead of $60,000, and they live on the same $40,000, they can FI even quicker.   
If they choose to spend more than $40,000 they won't get to FI as quickly.  This is simple math.  What is there to study?

Whether they are privileged or not, the math remains the same.


If you want to study whether the odds of getting (and keeping) a better paying job is affected by privilege, go for it.   The answer is "yes", by the way.    But it would be of use to determine "how much is it affected."

But once someone has achieved (and maintains) that income, the speed with which they reach FI is determined by how much they choose to spend and how much they choose to invest.  That's just math.   

Since High Earning folks who FI extra early open up jobs for more people, that actually helps the odds of more people benefitting from that same high paying job.   After all, if someone gets a job and holds onto it for 40 years, no one else gets that job.  If, instead, they FI in 10 years, and are replaced by another person who FIed in 10 years, etc.,  four people could have reached FI with the same job.  So why is anyone bitching about this?   Because that's the only motivation I see for doing this study.   And since, in this example, our 10 year to FI person is donating 75% of the income they could have made by holding onto the job, why the hell is anyone interested in more opportunity for people looking for reasons to dump shit on them?   

BTDretire

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Re: A poll and Excel/Openoffice calculations.
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2018, 05:51:29 AM »
I'm still leaning towards the SS statement as the source of yearly income.
It's something everyone can access, and I could not get the data together to
see my income back to the 80's without using my SS statement.
 So far for me just adjusting my income for inflation revealed that we,
on average earned about 20% above mean income, comparing to 2017 mean income.
  I would have thought it was reversed.
 About 1/2 of our earning years were below mean household income and 1/2 above.