Author Topic: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?  (Read 11333 times)

Marvel2017

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A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« on: December 01, 2014, 05:35:30 AM »
This is in Nashville TN by the way. My wife, 18MO baby and I have been turned down by multiple apt complexes because having 3 people in the apt exceeds "occupancy laws", they say "2 per room only". But some (less desirable to us) complexes are ok with it. I find it ridiculous that a small family can't get a 1BR if that's all we need (I'm not trying to pack 10 people in there). There are local code ordinances that specify square footage and setup of the apartment as factors, YET these complexes don't acknowledge any of this but instead refer to State law, which I haven't found yet but wouldn't local city code supercede state? Otherwise, why bother writing the city code? And I've read many legal sources online recommend following more lenient guidelines (such as allowing 2 plus one or not counting children under four in the occupancy calculation) in order to decrease chances of tenants complaining to HUD). I have friends right now who are having to move from a 1BR to a 2Br because they are expecting a child. And how in the hell is it acceptable for a hotel to accommodate 4 people (two double beds) in a room the average size of 400 sqft)?

MayDay

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 05:41:49 AM »
I would think a complaint to HUD might solve the problem, as you said in your post.

We tried to look at a small 2 bedroom apartment with two adults and two kids (3 and 5 at the time).  The guy didn't want to show it to us, he thought we had too many people.  I told him that since our current rental house was the exact same size, we would be fine.  He agreed to show it, but we ended up not renting it for unrelated reasons. 

cacaoheart

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 06:59:03 AM »
My wife and I were disappointed to learn that our 2 bedroom apartment has a limit of 2 adults, though there is no specific limit for # of kids. The limit mostly means that we can't officially rent the 2nd bedroom out to any friends.

Gin1984

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 07:08:11 AM »
Local laws may be stricter than state law, but cannot cancel out state law, just as state law cannot cancel out federal law.

Villanelle

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 07:24:53 AM »
Generally, the more strict law will always "win", if they don't conflict each other.  If they conflicted, the State law would probably win out, but it doesn't sound like they do conflict. 

goodlife

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 07:26:35 AM »
I think you should file a complaint or at least lodge an inquiry at whichever state or city authority is responsible for this policy (if this policy even exists). It really sounds ridiculous to me. A child should certainly not count...three adults would be another story..but a child...come on. I have so many friends who live in 1 bedroom apartments with a small child...I certainly don't intend to move out of mine if I get pregnant...I just checked my lease...it doesn't say anywhere that I need to inform my landlord in case I get pregnant, lol. Anyways, this really seems ridiculous to me and I am sorry you are going through this. Please take it up with the local authorities or maybe there is a pro-bono lawyer or some civil rights group who could look into this for you? I am rather outraged to hear about this. If I was in your shoes, I would not let this stand.

LennStar

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 08:13:42 AM »
If they say its law, asks them to show it to you. You just need the § number and look at it at your phone-internet, right?

three adults would be another story..
Hm... why?
Why is 2A+1C less then 3A?
Its three persons.
And also I dont know why 3 persons cant sleep in one room. And: If they are a love triangle, what should they do? Go in the park to have fun?

Skyhigh

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 08:33:23 AM »


If the occupancy law requires a maximum of two per room then you do not have much ground to fight on. My guess is that the one bedroom apartment complexes you are applying to are trying to create a singles atmosphere.

Skyhigh 

pzxc

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 08:43:39 AM »
We're all just speculating without actually seeing the wording of the state law, but 2 persons per room doesn't make sense to me as a rule.  So a studio apartment, which has zero bedrooms, cannot have anyone living in it at all then?  It's possible, though, that there really is a 2 person per room law and studios are governed separately.

What state are you in?  Maybe one of us can look up the relevant law for you.

gillstone

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 09:32:29 AM »
Occupancy laws are an artifact of HUD rules that went out in the 90's.  Most landlords and even state and local housing agencies stick to them out of inertia, not because they have any legal backing anymore.  In fact, you could have a legitimate Fair Housing complaint as this is discrimination based on family status.  Contact your local Human Rights Commission or Fair Housing organization and raise hell.

Under the Fair Housing Act you cannot be discriminated against for race, religion, ethnicity, sex, disability, or familial status.  Denying you a one-bed because you have a kid is discrimination based on familial status.   Section 100.70(c)(4) of the Final Rule on the Fair Housing Act states that it unlawful to assign "Any person or particular section of a community, neighborhood, or development or to particular floor of a building because of familial status." 

This is a federal law so state law can suck it.

The cannot shove you into a 2-bed if you have a kid and they cannot deny you a 1-bed if you are willing to pay rent.

pzxc

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 09:51:48 AM »
I'm not so sure about that, gillstone.

First of all, they certainly could deny you a 1-bedroom apartment if you had, say, fifteen children.  It would be child endangerment or negligence. So then the question becomes, at what point do children need their own room?  12 children? 8?  4?  2? 1?  You have to draw the line somewhere.  I'm sure the law *does* draw the line somewhere.  It may in fact draw the line at 2 persons per bedroom, adults and children combined. We don't know without seeing the law.

Secondly, even though it's true that federal law trumps state law, a Fair Housing or HUD complaint is only going to hurt the landlord, not help the renter.  If, in fact, there was an illegal discrimination, that will get the landlord in trouble once the complaint works its way through the system (which could take months), but it will not help the renter get the apartment...  they would have to sue the landlord directly on the basis of that discrimination (not just file a complaint), and then after the court says its peace perhaps the landlord will be forced to revise their policy/procedure to come into compliance with federal law but that too can take months or longer, and the renter will have to find some other housing accomodation in the meantime.

Thirdly, a state law that says "2 persons per bedroom" that doesn't specify any attributes of the persons/human beings, is not discriminatory. You can't discriminate based on unknown information. If the law is based on the number of human beings, and the law is applied equally to adults and children, I can see how that would not be discriminatory.  You may disagree -- that would have to be adjudicated by a court.

Fourthly, there comes a point where it is not worth pursuing something even if you are right.  You don't want to be in an adversarial / antagonistic relationship with your landlord, or anyone with whom you have a business relationship.  It just pays to keep things amicable.  Depending on the landlord's stance on this subject, it may be a situation where they don't actually care but just think they are upholding the law (and they could be mistaken), or it may be a situation where they have personal reasons for this policy and "state law" is an excuse that lets them implement it.  In the latter case, if they cared about this particular rule for whatever reason (maybe they feel higher occupancy leads to more damage / maintenance expense), then trying to force your way in to residency may not be in your best interest.  I don't see how getting a court order to allow you to live there is likely to be conducive to a pleasant living arrangement, no matter the length of the lease.

Here's what I would do:

1. Find out what the actual law is in your state, and county, and city, and what federal law says on the matter, so you are aware of the actual law in all 4 jurisdictions.

2. If you think the law allows you to live there, try to convince the landlord of their mistaken interpretation, but don't force the issue. If you're easily able to convince them, great -- otherwise move on.  Maybe the next building that tries to pull the same thing on you will be more convincable if you have the facts about the law right at the start.

3. At the very least, you can use this topic as an initial question / discussion to filter down the prospective residences so you will waste less time investigating the ones that are unlikely to budge on this matter.

4. Your first priority is to yourself and your family, so find a place to live first. After that is all settled, if you feel your investigation has revealed that one or more landlords are engaging in practices that are contrary to the law, at this point you can file a complaint about them with HUD or other agencies.

That's just my opinion about what I would do -- I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice!  If you feel in the slightest bit uncomfortable dealing with this issue, maybe you should retain an attorney to get professional advice on the matter.

Skyhigh

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 11:09:40 AM »

I am a professional property manager. Discrimination against families is illegal however often cities or other government agencies such as the fire department have maximum dwelling density ordinances. Property managers can then legally restrict tenants based upon numbers. You could hire an attorney to fight a losing battle or simply get a two bedroom unit instead.

Apartments that cater to higher income tenants will strictly adhere to the government limiting ordnance while lessor properties will interpret the rules less closely. 

Skyhigh

marty998

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 02:21:18 PM »
Guys these laws have nothing to do with who is sleeping with who.

It's all to do with things like:

- ease of evacuation in an emergency
- water usage on unmetered apartments (and fairness to all owners who have to pay)
- parking (if every unit had 4 adults in a 2bed and they all have a car each what do you think the parking situation would be like?)
- noise and amenity
- garbage (because more people create more garbage obviously)

Max people in a bedroom is just a convenient way of writing the law. Even if perhaps it is not a good way to write a law.

LennStar

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 02:31:23 PM »
Guys these laws have nothing to do with who is sleeping with who.

It's all to do with things like:

- ease of evacuation in an emergency
- water usage on unmetered apartments (and fairness to all owners who have to pay)
- parking (if every unit had 4 adults in a 2bed and they all have a car each what do you think the parking situation would be like?)
- noise and amenity
- garbage (because more people create more garbage obviously)

Max people in a bedroom is just a convenient way of writing the law. Even if perhaps it is not a good way to write a law.

Its even a quite awful way to do it, because ALL of the things you mentinoed are heavily depending on the person.
Like one who doesnt own a car. makes only 1/3 of garbage of average. Doesnt showers (ok.... ;) ) Is deaf-mute but a real athlete.
Compare that to the 300kg man that had to be taken by crane out of his room to the hospital.

gillstone

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 04:09:21 PM »
First, if you read the law, you'd be surprised by what it does and doesn't say.   While there are exceptions for health and safety, as far as Fair Housing goes it doesn't matter if they have 6 people and two beds or 3 people and 5 bedrooms.  When a landlord sets their occupancy standards, they cannot be in a way that is discriminatory.  If there is not a health and safety interest then they have some leg work to do to show why they think this family should be without a 1-bed. 

Second, do you think they are the only people who have ever wanted to rent a 1-bed when there were 3 people in the family?  This is a big housing issue for low-income families.  It's not a one-off issue, this is important for anyone who wants to rent a place of their choosing.  Also, a complaint does not have to lead to sanctions or fines or anything else.  If the landlord is informed of their obligations and then follows through on their obligations by allowing them to rent then the whole thing could be over pretty quickly and without the armies of attorneys that people imagine on these things.

Third, just because you may not feel the impact, or it seems reasonable enough to you, doesn't mean it passes muster with the existing law.  Would a landlord be allowed to say no to a couple that wanted a 1-bedroom where the woman was 3 months pregnant? or 9 months? or How about just capable of becoming pregnant? Where would you draw a line?

Fourth, amicable is nice.  You know what's better? Having a place to sleep.  They should talk to the landlord first because that should always be the first step, but if they are pushed into 2-bedrom housing they don't want simply because they have a kid that is discrimination.  Their local Fair Housing agency can walk them through what is and isn't allowed and if they have a legitimate complaint. 

And finally on that note...If you ever wonder if something is discrimination under Fair Housing just change the protected class for another and see how it sounds. "A family of 3 cannot rent a 1-bed apartment" may sound fine, but if you replaced the words "family of 3" with "Jewish family" or "family with a disabled member" or "single-parent family" or "white family" you would clearly have a problem.  Fair Housing does not prioritize protected classes.



Zikoris

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2014, 04:17:29 PM »
We have an incredible amount of restrictions in my complex regarding people and bedrooms. A 1 bedroom apartment is for a single person, couple, or single parent + 1 kid. Couples with no kids can't have anything larger than a 1 bedroom. A couple with two kids could qualify for a 2 bedroom if the two kids were the same gender or mixed gender but under a certain age, but they would need a third bedroom if the kids were different genders and older than the cutoff age for sharing (I think it's around 10 years old). I try not to think about it too much so my head doesn't explode.

seattlecyclone

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2014, 04:37:06 PM »
This is something that definitely varies by state and city. Seattle is pretty permissive about dwelling occupancy. You can have as many as eight people in a house or apartment if they aren't related to each other, and there's no limit if everyone's in the same family. The number of bedrooms is not a factor.

The town I went to college in was a different story. There was a limit of three unrelated people in large parts of the city, because a lot of voters wanted to be able to live near the center of town but wanted to make it harder for college students to live in their neighborhood. So even if you rented out a five-bedroom house, you could only legally have three roommates in there. The unintended consequence was there were lots of situations where a fourth or fifth roommate would have to only live there "unofficially." They couldn't have their name on the lease, and they would have to go so far as to have their mail delivered to a PO box because busybody neighbors would sometimes check the names on the mailbox and report houses that had too many people. My sister was in that situation once, and it wasn't fun, but her rent was a bit cheaper because she officially didn't exist.

clarkfan1979

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2014, 07:23:16 PM »
This is something that definitely varies by state and city. Seattle is pretty permissive about dwelling occupancy. You can have as many as eight people in a house or apartment if they aren't related to each other, and there's no limit if everyone's in the same family. The number of bedrooms is not a factor.

The town I went to college in was a different story. There was a limit of three unrelated people in large parts of the city, because a lot of voters wanted to be able to live near the center of town but wanted to make it harder for college students to live in their neighborhood. So even if you rented out a five-bedroom house, you could only legally have three roommates in there. The unintended consequence was there were lots of situations where a fourth or fifth roommate would have to only live there "unofficially." They couldn't have their name on the lease, and they would have to go so far as to have their mail delivered to a PO box because busybody neighbors would sometimes check the names on the mailbox and report houses that had too many people. My sister was in that situation once, and it wasn't fun, but her rent was a bit cheaper because she officially didn't exist.

Yes, this is the case at Colorado State. I am a landlord of a 4 bed/2 bath house with 2200 square feet. I can only have 3 on the lease, but I'm pretty sure 4 kids live there. This is a stupid rule. It has been challenged a little in the recent past. I imagine it will change to 4 unrelated within 5 years.

Larger numbers of kids is correlated with more noise. However, correlation is not causation. Kids that are 4 deep and quiet as a mouse can be fined via noisy neighbors. Kids that make a lot of noise don't really face any consequences as long as they only have 3 living at the house.

gooki

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2014, 12:43:52 AM »
Why even disclose you have a child?

marty998

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2014, 03:16:51 AM »
Guys these laws have nothing to do with who is sleeping with who.

It's all to do with things like:

- ease of evacuation in an emergency
- water usage on unmetered apartments (and fairness to all owners who have to pay)
- parking (if every unit had 4 adults in a 2bed and they all have a car each what do you think the parking situation would be like?)
- noise and amenity
- garbage (because more people create more garbage obviously)

Max people in a bedroom is just a convenient way of writing the law. Even if perhaps it is not a good way to write a law.

Its even a quite awful way to do it, because ALL of the things you mentinoed are heavily depending on the person.
Like one who doesnt own a car. makes only 1/3 of garbage of average. Doesnt showers (ok.... ;) ) Is deaf-mute but a real athlete.
Compare that to the 300kg man that had to be taken by crane out of his room to the hospital.

Tell me about it. 1 bag of garbage every 3 weeks is my contribution. Yet I'm the one who volunteers to put the fully overloaded bins out in my complex for collection each week.

I have no idea how people produce so much garbage. Oh wait, I do. They don't have a Mo on their face.

adamcollin

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2014, 03:29:56 AM »
Well this is not right. If 1 BR apartment is all you want  you can fight for it.

Marvel2017

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2014, 05:51:35 AM »
So here is the followup: After being rejected for the 1BR because we had three people (two adults, one child), I filed a discrimination complaint with HUD. I also replied to an email the leasing agent had sent me thanking him for showing me the place and how I knew this was out of his control, but asked him to please inform his management that I've filed a complaint and will also be contacting local housing authorities as well to determine the legality of what had occurred. So yesterday I received a call from a representative of the parent company of the apartment complex saying the had spoken with their attorneys and their opinion was that it's more of a guideline and since our third occupants was a small child that they wanted to offer us the apartment and sorry for the inconvenience. Yay! So we are moving forward with this apartment. I have never seen a more ambiguous "law"/"guideline"/"rule" whatever it is in my life. I had some complexes (all in same state and city) openly on their website stating children under 2 didn't count in occupancy number, children under 4 didn't count, no more than 2 per bedroom, "it's a state law we have to follow", blah blah. frustrating. So I don't know what the deal is, but I will surely be telling my acquaintances who are being forced to move up to a 2 bedroom because they are a couple with a child to fight to keep their 1BR if that's what they want. Thanks for all the input!

Gone Fishing

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2014, 07:23:00 AM »
Good work!  Keep up the good fight!

gillstone

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Re: A man, wife and child can't rent a 1BR apartment?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2014, 08:31:12 AM »
Good to hear! I'm also glad the management company was smart enough to reconsider their "guideline" without it turning into a giant thing.