A lack of NEW Converts?!

[FIreSurfer]

Building on @Trifele 's apt post to the "Saving to 10K" race:

Just checking in to see how everyone is doing at the end of the quarter? The thread has been too quiet!

This got me thinking - why has this particular "Throw Down the Gauntlet" savings race been seeing so few new recruits?  @Trifele is right that months have gone by over there without new additions or a solid bunch of regular posts......

----Less New MMM articles translating to less hair-on-fire new Mustachians in the debt-to-10k range finding the faith?

----Stimulus money and work from home 2020 year has less people starting in debt, and more starting with heftier savings accounts?

I'm in a higher bracket savings race and I would say MORE rather than less people have been graduating into the 500k level lately....


Thoughts anyone? Are we running low on new converts? Do the kids just have more money?

[Zikoris]

We're too old and uncool and the new converts like other hangouts better. Reddit has no shortage of newbies, that's for sure.

[BudgetSlasher]

We're too old and uncool and the new converts like other hangouts better. Reddit has no shortage of newbies, that's for sure.

This is probably accounts for part. All of the forums I frequent are suffering from declining membership as older member become less active and there are less newer members.

[Bateaux]

The site as a whole lacks the excitement of years past.  Many of those early posters have their own sites now.

[JLee]

Forums are dying. It’s unfortunate but I’m seeing it across my car and tech places too.

The instant gratification and scrollability of social media is sadly winning.

[NorthernIkigai]

No no, we're here! We're just too busy wading through the 267118462 pages of MPP's and Overheard on [...] to have time to post much.

I see a lot of "oh, this board was so great back then" comments on here lately (I've been lurking for a few years before I even made a profile), but it's not like us newbies have missed out on anything: we can just read the whole million page threads now, they're still there and we don't even have to wait for people to post stuff!

Anyway, I've thought of posting a case study and even got all the information for it, but I already know how it'd go: "Northern, you spend too much on groceries!". "Yeah, but but but... Food is expensive here, and look, I don't have a car". "Northern, that's no excuse and don't change the subject". Etc. So I'm just saving other people's time by not posting one :-p

[mspym]

I dunno, I didn't post here for years after I first joined. Like @NorthernIkigai says, I got so much info out of lurking before feeling like i was really to post.

[Linea_Norway]

No no, we're here! We're just too busy wading through the 267118462 pages of MPP's and Overheard on [...] to have time to post much.

I see a lot of "oh, this board was so great back then" comments on here lately (I've been lurking for a few years before I even made a profile), but it's not like us newbies have missed out on anything: we can just read the whole million page threads now, they're still there and we don't even have to wait for people to post stuff!

Anyway, I've thought of posting a case study and even got all the information for it, but I already know how it'd go: "Northern, you spend too much on groceries!". "Yeah, but but but... Food is expensive here, and look, I don't have a car". "Northern, that's no excuse and don't change the subject". Etc. So I'm just saving other people's time by not posting one :-p

This means you are starting to discover the secret of saving. You are now able to see your own expenses and are aware of what you need to cut down on. Now you just need the will to do it as well.

[NorthernIkigai]

No no, we're here! We're just too busy wading through the 267118462 pages of MPP's and Overheard on [...] to have time to post much.

I see a lot of "oh, this board was so great back then" comments on here lately (I've been lurking for a few years before I even made a profile), but it's not like us newbies have missed out on anything: we can just read the whole million page threads now, they're still there and we don't even have to wait for people to post stuff!

Anyway, I've thought of posting a case study and even got all the information for it, but I already know how it'd go: "Northern, you spend too much on groceries!". "Yeah, but but but... Food is expensive here, and look, I don't have a car". "Northern, that's no excuse and don't change the subject". Etc. So I'm just saving other people's time by not posting one :-p

This means you are starting to discover the secret of saving. You are now able to see your own expenses and are aware of what you need to cut down on. Now you just need the will to do it as well.

Nah, I've always been kind of Mustachian, I just didn't have a term for it until some years ago. I'm pretty comfortable with our spending, including the groceries. We're about halfway to our estimated FIRE net worth goal.

I am just one example of people doing this stuff, and even reading this blog/forum, without necessarily writing much here. Which can lead to there not being many new active voices and therefore the impression that there aren't many new people around.

[dcheesi]

We're too old and uncool and the new converts like other hangouts better. Reddit has no shortage of newbies, that's for sure.

Which subreddits do you follow for this subject? I've looked at several likely candidates, but none of them has ever "stuck" for me, even though I'm an active redditor in other areas. I just don't like the vibe or even the subject matter in the subs I've found as much as what I find here.

[ender]

Most of reddit's FIRE forums are more like "software engineers earning big bucks FIRE" forums.

[GodlessCommie]

Most of reddit's FIRE forums are more like "software engineers earning big bucks FIRE" forums.

"I'm 25 yo and $5K short of $1M stash"

But it looks like new converts arrive at a steady rate. They just land on Reddit.

[CodingHare]

I think the idea of registering on forums has died out, which is a shame because forums are the most positive form of social media I've encountered.  Perhaps my brain just works better chronologically rather than by having the algorithm decide what is Best based on upvotes?

I've been a lurking member for about 5 years now, only recently started commenting.  Perhaps because of the pandemic I've been wanting more interaction, or maybe it's because there aren't many people I can talk about finances IRL with?  (SO hates talking about money despite being naturally frugal, I don't care to share details with outside friends and family when I know I'm making three times their salary.  Just seems like bragging in that context.)

[Highbeam]

I am having a hard time buying a used car for under 10k. Inflation has killed that thread.

[terran]

I think the idea of registering on forums has died out, which is a shame because forums are the most positive form of social media I've encountered.  Perhaps my brain just works better chronologically rather than by having the algorithm decide what is Best based on upvotes?

I agree with this sentiment. I think it's because the likes and upvotes encourage bad behavior. Posting incendiary/polarizing things and snark is likely to get the reward of choice on the platform while forums require more substantive contributions and give and take. Basically, other platforms make it too easy to interact while actually deciding to post in reply to someone's forum comment takes a little more work even if it's just a +1. One also can't anonymously support an obnoxious comment, so that might help keep such posters from being encouraged.

[314159]

No no, we're here! We're just too busy wading through the 267118462 pages of MPP's and Overheard on [...] to have time to post much.

I see a lot of "oh, this board was so great back then" comments on here lately (I've been lurking for a few years before I even made a profile), but it's not like us newbies have missed out on anything: we can just read the whole million page threads now, they're still there and we don't even have to wait for people to post stuff!

Yes, this is right!

I think I'm a new member. I first learned of Mustachianism about 2.5 years ago, read the blog, then starting reading the forums, then made an account because I wanted to read some journals, and only made my first post nine moths later.

I do read the FIRE subreddits occasionally, but don't post there. But FIRE is overall not such a complicated concept, and you can only talk so much about 4% rule, savings rate, groceries, used cars, etc. Hence the content there is pretty repetitive, and the format of reddit means you don't see the long, deep discussions on life there like you do on the forums.

 

[Eco_eco]

Personally I keep coming back here for the continuity of the community. When I first found these forums it felt like I had found my tribe. Even though Ive not posted much it was great to read the stories of people who were also focused on a lifestyle where money is a solved problem early in life.

Ten years later reddit has captured a fair bit of the conversation, but it’s rare to come across users on reddit who have been continuing a conversation for years. Reaching FI takes a long time and it’s nice to have people along for the journey.

I sure wish these forums where easier to use on my phone though.

[Chris Pascale]

I never thought to do any throw downs. I guess mine was in 2019. I'd been hired to be a criminal analyst for a federal agency, but they took so long to hire me that the job posting became invalid. I was fairly pissed that it took them 9 months to hire staff they'd been budgeted for.

As a result I stopped being choosy and applied for 17 positions at the same pay grade and was hired for 1. In February I repeated the process and have had 2 interviews in the past 3 weeks.

[bacchi]

Wrong thread, @Chris Pascale? ^^^

[Paul der Krake]

The comically bad banner in the header of this forum likely turns away tons of people. I've a custom adblock rule removing it for the last 8 years, but most people, I assume, just go to a more professional looking message board. It's not like FIRE is a niche community anymore. Tons of options out there.

[Leseratte2021]

After a couple of years of reading the forum i finally wanted to participate...but it us such a hassle two answer the security questions any every time a want to post something, that most of the time I give up and just continue reading....

[Morning Glory]

After a couple of years of reading the forum i finally wanted to participate...but it us such a hassle two answer the security questions any every time a want to post something, that most of the time I give up and just continue reading....

Huh, I just stay logged in. I do have to remember my first user name for when I delete my browsing history.

This forum is such a wonderful supportive community. I feel comfortable sharing things here that I would never mention on regular social media.

[terran]

After a couple of years of reading the forum i finally wanted to participate...but it us such a hassle two answer the security questions any every time a want to post something, that most of the time I give up and just continue reading....

Huh, I just stay logged in. I do have to remember my first user name for when I delete my browsing history.

This forum is such a wonderful supportive community. I feel comfortable sharing things here that I would never mention on regular social media.

I think this is requirement for the first X number of posts (don't know how many) to cut down on spammers. Clearly the solution is just to post more until it goes away.

Edit: It looks like this should stop after you've made something between 3 and 10 posts (depending on whether the forum software has accidentally reverted to the default 10 or the Moderator's setting of 3 has stuck).

[Leseratte2021]

Thanks! I hope it will stop soon... wait a second it just did stop...no more questions!

[draco44]

Thanks! I hope it will stop soon... wait a second it just did stop...no more questions!

One of us! One of us!

I like the poetry of a newer poster becoming verified in real time on a thread about newer members. Welcome out from the shadows of lurking @Leseratte2021! I was there quite a while myself.

[ender]

The comically bad banner in the header of this forum likely turns away tons of people. I've a custom adblock rule removing it for the last 8 years, but most people, I assume, just go to a more professional looking message board. It's not like FIRE is a niche community anymore. Tons of options out there.

You know, I've never thought about this (as someone with my own adblock rule on it, heh) but you're probably right.

[maizefolk]

I think it has gotten progressively harder to register a new account at this forum. It's understandable as we seem to be a high priority target for spam and while the mods do a great job of keeping it in check, if you browse "unread posts since last visit" often enough you'll see frequent evidence of spammers breaking through the automated checks at which point I assume a moderator has to clean up the mess manually.

When I signed up I think all that was required was an e-mail address for validation. Later people had to answer various questions about Mr. Money Mustache's posts in order to create an account. Now I tried connecting with a new browser to see what registration is like these days and saw this:

Web registration has been disabled due to a relentless flood of spam accounts being created. However, you can create a new user account through the MMM App (free and available for both IOS and Android). This will give you a great reading platform for a bunch of financial blogs, AND the user account will allow you to log in and post here.

Having to download an app in order to register an account at a forum is a much bigger hoop than I'd be willing to jump through for a community I wasn't already actively engaged with* which likely explains the decreasing numbers of new users showing up.

*But again I completely understand why the mods have set it up that way.

[Paul der Krake]

What. The. Fuck.

I would never in a million years download a phone app to post in a forum I just stumbled upon. No wonder we don't have many newcomers.

[Morning Glory]

I remember being new here and seeing complaints that the forum had gotten too big and it was hard to keep up with everything!

You are right, I wouldn't download an app if I wasn't already attached to this place. I think I had to answer a couple questions to show that I had read the blog first. I tried the Facebook group for a bit and it made me a little uncomfortable because people would ask the same question there and on the forum so you could tell who they were.

[ender]

There's 0% chance I'd download an app too.

I'd much prefer to make signups easier and increase the moderation team.

[Rusted Rose]

I joined last year and yep, had to do it via the app. Not the most fun experience but I do understand the annoyance of relentless spambots.

It's true, forums are old school, and as one poster said not often phone-friendly since living on phones wasn't a thing when forums were established. But I'm not big on living on my phone the way most of the kids today are, so.

You are right, I wouldn't download an app if I wasn't already attached to this place. I think I had to answer a couple questions to show that I had read the blog first. I tried the Facebook group for a bit and it made me a little uncomfortable because people would ask the same question there and on the forum so you could tell who they were.

Also not big on how nearly every possible community I look into (not necessarily financially related) happily chucks itself up on FB with unexamined alacrity.

And that's how I get c*ckblocked from a lot of things, including my local MMMer network. Apparently they arrange in-person gatherings among FBers only.

[CodingHare]

Oh wow, downloading an unknown app to access a forum?  That would be a hard pass for me.   I joined when it was just questions about MMM's posts.

I joined last year and yep, had to do it via the app. Not the most fun experience but I do understand the annoyance of relentless spambots.

It's true, forums are old school, and as one poster said not often phone-friendly since living on phones wasn't a thing when forums were established. But I'm not big on living on my phone the way most of the kids today are, so.

You are right, I wouldn't download an app if I wasn't already attached to this place. I think I had to answer a couple questions to show that I had read the blog first. I tried the Facebook group for a bit and it made me a little uncomfortable because people would ask the same question there and on the forum so you could tell who they were.

Also not big on how nearly every possible community I look into (not necessarily financially related) happily chucks itself up on FB with unexamined alacrity.

And that's how I get c*ckblocked from a lot of things, including my local MMMer network. Apparently they arrange in-person gatherings among FBers only.

...
Also not big on how nearly every possible community I look into (not necessarily financially related) happily chucks itself up on FB with unexamined alacrity.

And that's how I get c*ckblocked from a lot of things, including my local MMMer network. Apparently they arrange in-person gatherings among FBers only.

Solidarity!  I refuse to get a Facebook account.  So many meetups for hobbies only organize through FB though, so I'm excluded by default.  Our neighborhood watch group invited us to join and maybe come to a BBQ--details only to be released on FB.  It's relentless.  It's even worse when it's a business that uses Facebook as their webpage.  I get that it's a low bar for small business to setup, but it excludes non FB customers.  I guess there aren't that many of us, though.

[RWD]

When I signed up I think all that was required was an e-mail address for validation. Later people had to answer various questions about Mr. Money Mustache's posts in order to create an account. Now I tried connecting with a new browser to see what registration is like these days and saw this:

Web registration has been disabled due to a relentless flood of spam accounts being created. However, you can create a new user account through the MMM App (free and available for both IOS and Android). This will give you a great reading platform for a bunch of financial blogs, AND the user account will allow you to log in and post here.

Having to download an app in order to register an account at a forum is a much bigger hoop than I'd be willing to jump through for a community I wasn't already actively engaged with* which likely explains the decreasing numbers of new users showing up.

*But again I completely understand why the mods have set it up that way.

Wow, that does seem like overkill. There is no way I would install an app just to create an account on a forum.

As a side note I checked for myself to confirm and noticed that it also says you can't use an Outlook or Hotmail e-mail address (due to Microsoft filtering). That must be new too as I originally signed up with a Hotmail account.

[Loren Ver]

Yeah,  after being a member for many a year and talking about the forum a lot, Mr Ver was going to join but more or less can't (won't).  Too many barriers to entry for him that weren't there when I joined (user name and email address) and if they were I wouldn't have joined either.  Maybe that would have been a good thing, I'm pretty close to a spambot myself :D.

LV

[Watchmaker]

I didn't realize that new registrations had to be done through an app; that certainly would reduce the number of new members.

But as has already been discussed, falling participation on forums seems to be a broad trend, with the activity migrating to more open social media platforms. For my perspective that's a shame because internet forums (I would argue) are better at building durable and engaged communities than social media sites.

It's also a shame for me personally because it takes a lot of energy to seek out and participate in new sites, and I'd rather spend that time and energy engaged with great people like yourselves.

But that's the way it is.

[Cool Friend]

I don't see a problem with a small membership. The more people you attract, the more assholes there will be.

Also "converting" people is weird.

[Rusted Rose]

But as has already been discussed, falling participation on forums seems to be a broad trend, with the activity migrating to more open social media platforms. For my perspective that's a shame because internet forums (I would argue) are better at building durable and engaged communities than social media sites.

It's also a shame for me personally because it takes a lot of energy to seek out and participate in new sites, and I'd rather spend that time and energy engaged with great people like yourselves.

But that's the way it is.

Well, just as web design flips incessantly from sharp corners to rounded corners and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth again because some newbie always rediscovers The Other One True Answer, maybe enough communities will realize that forums were better and/or more will rebel against the Blue Behemoth's data hoovering and this format will become the "new" thing again?

Remember when open plan offices were the One Best True Answer and were lemminged? Now everyone hates them, for good reason. So...it could happen. :P

[Rusted Rose]

The more people you attract, the more assholes there will be.

Also a Very Excellent Point.

[Rusted Rose]

Solidarity!  I refuse to get a Facebook account.  So many meetups for hobbies only organize through FB though, so I'm excluded by default.  Our neighborhood watch group invited us to join and maybe come to a BBQ--details only to be released on FB.  It's relentless.  It's even worse when it's a business that uses Facebook as their webpage.  I get that it's a low bar for small business to setup, but it excludes non FB customers.  I guess there aren't that many of us, though.

Ugggh. Yeah. I hear of a surprising number of FB quitters but it's still not quite the movement I would rather it were.

[RetiredAt63]

I joined ages ago so no difficulties.  I joined Facebook for one specific Guild, don't use it for anything else.  I wish they would use their Ravelry Group more.

I find the forums (or any web site) barely bearable on my tablet.  I would use my phone (and I like my phone) only if I were truly stuck.

And I just never log out, solves the password problem.  Living alone means never having to log out so others can use the electronic device.    ;-)

[Morning Glory]

Solidarity!  I refuse to get a Facebook account.  So many meetups for hobbies only organize through FB though, so I'm excluded by default.  Our neighborhood watch group invited us to join and maybe come to a BBQ--details only to be released on FB.  It's relentless.  It's even worse when it's a business that uses Facebook as their webpage.  I get that it's a low bar for small business to setup, but it excludes non FB customers.  I guess there aren't that many of us, though.

Ugggh. Yeah. I hear of a surprising number of FB quitters but it's still not quite the movement I would rather it were.

I still use it for sharing pictures of my kids but it's hard to have a real conversation or debate on there. I wouldn't put anything on there unless I would feel comfortable having it on a giant billboard in front of my house.  My feed is just kids and pets. (I do like the marketplace and the messenger app though).

[Cool Friend]

Occasionally I'm envious of the Buy Nothing groups, but I deleted Facebook 10 years ago and I have not regretted it once. I encourage everyone to rid themselves of that bullshit once and for all.

[Zikoris]

It's weird how nobody but Facebook seems to have managed a really good platform for groups/clubs to operate out of - meaning something with easy-use discussion, messaging capabilities, event organizing, free, etc. I think good discussion and messaging capability is really crucial for FIRE groups because people want to talk a lot between meetups - unlike, say, a hiking group that would operate just as well on Meetup.com.

[Rusted Rose]

[...] Meetup.com

Meetup does have messaging and discussion functions, but I'm pretty sure the site is at least 5 years older than FB and clunky, and those aren't well integrated. It's interesting how they haven't really updated that much or migrated to something smoother. Then again, that's likely because they'd rather discourage virtual ease in favor of their in-person mission.

The Mighty Networks platform seems to be a thing some have gone to as an alternative to the FB honeypot that is more modern than forums and probably has all the functionality you're noting. I haven't dug into it terribly much so I'm no expert, and no idea about mobile experience etc., but that could be an idea.

[CodingHare]

It's the free bit that's the problem.  Free means the money is coming from tracking your activities, usually.  @RetiredAt63 I use Ravelry too!  It's great because the site is supported by the revenue from selling patterns, not from spying on your every move.  I'm lucky my local guild is Rav centric and not FB centric, or I would never have met my knitting friends.

I also envy the Buy Nothing groups!

Meetup is great for making offline friends, but definitely not for hosting extended conversations.  Discord is my current favorite chat client, but it works better for spontaneous conversations.

Tumblr has interesting posts, but interacting via Reblogs is counterintuitive to me.  Mastodon is interesting since it is open source and distributed, but it functionally mimics Twitter more than Facebook.  Also be very careful which instances you choose to federate with.

[RetiredAt63]

It's the free bit that's the problem.  Free means the money is coming from tracking your activities, usually.  @RetiredAt63 I use Ravelry too!  It's great because the site is supported by the revenue from selling patterns, not from spying on your every move.  I'm lucky my local guild is Rav centric and not FB centric, or I would never have met my knitting friends.

I also envy the Buy Nothing groups!

Meetup is great for making offline friends, but definitely not for hosting extended conversations.  Discord is my current favorite chat client, but it works better for spontaneous conversations.

Tumblr has interesting posts, but interacting via Reblogs is counterintuitive to me.  Mastodon is interesting since it is open source and distributed, but it functionally mimics Twitter more than Facebook.  Also be very careful which instances you choose to federate with.

I do see the advantages of Facebook.  Our Guild is private, you have to be approved to be admitted.  We post a lot of guild pictures.  Ravelry is much more public.  Most of our members are not Ravelry-oriented, I  suspect.  Someone proposed we do Tour de Fleece this year and a lot of people didn't know what it is.  So far we are only 3 or 4 signed up.

[Leseratte2021]

Thanks! I hope it will stop soon... wait a second it just did stop...no more questions!

One of us! One of us!

I like the poetry of a newer poster becoming verified in real time on a thread about newer members. Welcome out from the shadows of lurking @Leseratte2021! I was there quite a while myself.

Thanks for the warm welcome. It feels so good to finally play with the cool kids!

[NorthernIkigai]

I had already forgotten that I had to download the app to sign up... So it can't have been too traumatic. I actually assumed I'd be able to read the actual forum there, but alas, that was not the case. So I downloaded the app (with absolutely no hesitation, after years of lurking), and just deleted it straight away after having created my profile.

Regarding FB, I can somehow understand hobby groups or tiny companies using it, but where I draw the line is municipal services using it. Sure, it's easier to update than a real website, but does my city really want to be dependent on a stock listed American company for informing citizens of its services!? The city does of course have a real website as well, but things like opening hours and other things that can change often are sometimes put on FB.

[Captain Cactus]

Most of reddit's FIRE forums are more like "software engineers earning big bucks FIRE" forums.

LOL, isn't that what this forum is all about?

[FireLane]

Maybe the number of new Mustachians is an indicator of where we are in the business cycle. Like, when times are good and markets are roaring, more people feel rich and confident about quitting their jobs. When fear rules the market, people flee back to the safety of a paycheck.