Author Topic: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)  (Read 3101 times)

dragonwalker

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A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« on: May 03, 2019, 01:55:01 AM »
Today I’m in one of these moods where I am not feeling comfortable with myself. I’m 31 graduated college at 22 in 2010 and have been working full time ever since. I started on the low end on the pay scale in the financial services sector and slowly I did get some more responsibility and 1 big promotion where at a high I made mid 60s in a sales position for 5 years.

I’m not sure why I stayed in that position so long as at the heart of it I don’t respect sales work much as I see it as something cheap, easy, low skilled, and not very impactful work. I did my job well and got along with everyone fine. On top of that I sold my soul for cheap as well. Living in the LA area mid 60s is nothing and that was at a high. I don’t have a materialistic lifestyle but some measure of me is caught up in how much I make balanced against what I do. I didn’t make a lot and my profession was well, eh.

Fast forward to late last year and I finally took on a new job. I’ve been at it for 6 months. I really do like the company and the potential for opportunity however I don’t know what it is, but I feel like I’ve made so many mistakes to end up where I am. It all started when I realized how far one of my former colleagues at my previous job had come. Despite having not gone to college and not being particularly good at what she did previously in the company we were both at and having come close to being fired due to mistakes, she found a job at the company that I now joined and in a little less than 3 years has become my new boss and manager of our department. She’s a bit crude (curses openly and has this less than professional attitude) and I feel she’s a mediocre manager although she’s new to the role so the last part might be just be that. I am on good terms with her but when I see her I just don’t understand how it is she was able to pull it off. We are not friends but our working relationship is good. Including the fact I provided information to her from my previous workplace that really helped her in her business plan here.
Anyway, she been my boss for the past 4 months and yes she makes perhaps $100K when I had to take a pay cut and now make $52K. I look around and some of my other co-workers present an even greater contrast. For instance, one of the recent hires before me was a former VP in another institution in a department not unlike ours, well educated with a masters, very personable and competent. Another co worker came from the same place as myself and my manager where he was a very good worker, made few mistakes, been here at the company 2.5 years but has yet to be promoted once and not accepted to transfer to a different job where transfers in the company are commonplace.  At the same time in my short time here I’ve seen a person in our department almost completely underqualified to be promoted after very little time in position to a role of significantly different job role and much greater pay. The majority of the 11 person department have much greater experience and knowledge but it’s true no one in our particular department sought out the manager position that opened.

I will say that my manager was on very good terms with our previous manager that became the new VP of our department. I refuse to believe that it was simply nepotism that got her the job but clearly, I am not doing something right or at least I feel that way. I am not trying to suggest she’s incompetent, contrary to that she does have a good amount of useful knowledge and is competent in the technical aspects of the department but less so about management. She is 32. 

Now I know it’s been only 6 months since I started so I can’t possibly expect to be “promoted” but fast promotions can and do happen to a select few not necessarily I feel on qualifications especially at this smaller and growing company. By small I still mean about 700 people. I see myself as a relatively sociable and friendly person that produces good work with a good attitude.
What can some of the people here say about securing those roles of greater responsibility and pay other than just work hard at what you do? One thing I’ve been trying to do from the get go is to talk about my ambition to grow in the company and to take the lead on any possible projects we may have to demonstrate some leadership in work and behavior. Outside of work I’ve been pursuing continuing education technically working towards more classes to perhaps be able to take the CPA exam although I’m thinking something like an MBA might be in order.

For all you career working people at a company can you relate? Do I have to focus on kissing ass and ingratiate myself with the right people? If so, what are some ways you have seen this happen? I’ve not been the most keen on office politics mostly I stay out of it. Like sometimes I think I should do these things (become involved) despite the fact I may need to be disingenuous about it just so that I can get a means to an end. Do I have to get Machiavellian about it? I want to be clear I don’t want to do anything wrong but what can I do out of the box or different than the obvious that makes that difference, that creates that spark in some decision makers mind the next time they think of someone to promote. What silly, stupid, etc  things am I over looking that I should be looking out for? This may sound even sillier but is there a such thing as a professional work coach that can see and analyze how I operate and just improve it like a personal trainer at a gym? My game sucks and I can barely dribble.

It’s sad that when I was 22 in my senior year of college I was in charge of a staff of student workers much like the staff I am in now in a role that I felt good in. I just feel like I’ve just taken a step back and shuffled around a bit. I feel stupid and deflated. This doesn’t happen often but these thoughts creep up enough along with the evidence of what others have done in the meantime to put me in this state of mind sometimes.       

Maenad

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 05:05:47 AM »
It's early in the AM, so this may be a bit disjointed.

1. "Comparison is the thief of joy" - I'm sure you've heard this hoary old saying. It is true, though. There's always going to be people better than you at things. And that's OK, it doesn't make your value as a person less. Do you have pets? They love us no matter how little money we make compared to the Joneses. :-) I have a lot of internal pressure to Be The Best Or People Will Talk, so I understand that insecure feeling too, if that's some of what's in your head.

2. Spending your 20s making mistakes is pretty typical. I spent my 20s with undiagnosed and untreated depression, and I was terrible at my jobs. It took almost getting fired at 32 for me to go to my doctor in tears and her to finally correctly guess what was going on with me. You're not alone in feeling this way - there's lots of people here who spent their 20s making decisions they later regret (or at least would have made differently if they knew then what they know now).

3. Some companies and industries have lots of politics, some don't. There is always a certain amount of "who you know" and "whose team are you on". I've tried to be honest and respectful, and if that conflicts with an executive that doesn't like the cut of my jib, I move on. And it has happened, so I understand.

You may want to keep looking at job postings and do some interviewing. If they ask why you're interviewing after so little time you can always say that a friend pointed out the posting to you and it seemed interesting, and you like to keep your options open. At least it will give you an idea of what the market is like for your skills, and that knowledge can help you feel less trapped where you are.

chemistk

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 06:13:58 AM »
Piggybacking off of Maenad - you may be dealing with depression and are not aware of it. Your first course of action should be to work on improving your self worth. YOU need to think more highly of YOURSELF. Your measuring stick should only be internal. "How can tomorrow's version of me be better than yesterday's?"

Second, and this is gonna sting, you're entitled to nothing. There is nothing you deserve. As Mae pointed out, comparison really is the thief of joy. But you know what's worse? Envy, jealousy, and the feeling that you should be given/granted/promoted/congratulated/thanked, or any other myriad actions. Nobody owes you a damn thing.

Once you see that, and accept that, you'll smile and be happy for your former-colleague-now-boss because her life is hers and who really gives a shit what she had to do to get to where she is. She could die tomorrow. You could die tomorrow. We could all die tomorrow. Because of this, you'll have to come up with a pretty good reason to give a shit about whose ass she had to kiss to get that job.

Focus on making you better. Don't create narratives about anybody else, especially in your own head. If you can do this, you'll end up with exactly what you were looking for, even if it's only what you already have.

cowpuncher10

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 06:53:40 AM »
Piggybacking off of Maenad - you may be dealing with depression and are not aware of it. Your first course of action should be to work on improving your self worth. YOU need to think more highly of YOURSELF. Your measuring stick should only be internal. "How can tomorrow's version of me be better than yesterday's?"

Second, and this is gonna sting, you're entitled to nothing. There is nothing you deserve. As Mae pointed out, comparison really is the thief of joy. But you know what's worse? Envy, jealousy, and the feeling that you should be given/granted/promoted/congratulated/thanked, or any other myriad actions. Nobody owes you a damn thing.

Once you see that, and accept that, you'll smile and be happy for your former-colleague-now-boss because her life is hers and who really gives a shit what she had to do to get to where she is. She could die tomorrow. You could die tomorrow. We could all die tomorrow. Because of this, you'll have to come up with a pretty good reason to give a shit about whose ass she had to kiss to get that job.

Focus on making you better. Don't create narratives about anybody else, especially in your own head. If you can do this, you'll end up with exactly what you were looking for, even if it's only what you already have.

I'm going to disagree with a bit of what you said. Being envious and only envious is indeed a bad thing. My envy for those who have more typically transforms into motivation for me personally. When I see someone who I perceive to not be as competent as me with something I want, material or non-material, I think to myself what can I do to get there if they did?

Perception...

Parizade

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2019, 07:23:46 AM »
Focus on making you better. Don't create narratives about anybody else, especially in your own head. If you can do this, you'll end up with exactly what you were looking for, even if it's only what you already have.

^this, so much this!

If, after mastering the above, you really want to move up then tell your manager (and her manager). Ask them for candid feedback on what it would take to advance, then set aside your ego and listen with an open mind.

You also refer to "kissing ass" so I want to clarify on that a bit. One practice that is a key to success is finding ways to make your manager look good to her/his manager so they can acheive their goals for advancement. If you help someone else in their career they are more likely to help you. That's not kissing ass, that's just being helpful and smart.

When your manager succeeds in moving up she will create a vacuum that needs to be filled. Who will she recommend as her successor? Someone highly competent who she can just tolerate or someone less competent who will continue to support her growth and reputation? The latter of course. So if you are highly competent AND supportive you will float to the top like cream.

However, if you are in a situation where the leaders of your organization behave in ways that you cannot support don't damage yourself by pretending. It's better in that case to start looking for a different employer.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 07:34:40 AM by Parizade »

J Boogie

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 08:44:39 AM »
It all started when I realized how far one of my former colleagues at my previous job had come. Despite having not gone to college and not being particularly good at what she did previously in the company we were both at and having come close to being fired due to mistakes, she found a job at the company that I now joined and in a little less than 3 years has become my new boss and manager of our department.

One of the things that's easy to miss is just how different everyone's view can be.

You don't need to ingratiate yourself to upper management, but it is very valuable to understand what their priorities are and what inspires confidence in them. It's likely that your supervisor was in a situation she handled really well and upper management noticed. Ever heard the phrase you only get one chance to make a first impression? Well, it sounds like she just goes for it. She's coarse, OK. She's made mistakes, OK. It sounds like upper management is looking for someone who is not tentative and not afraid to mess up. Doesn't sound like she's a total rockstar, but they probably can't afford/find a total rockstar and they are happy to settle for someone who demonstrates the abilities she has demonstrated.

Why not you? Well, you've been there 6 months. You could rise quick. But you won't if you continue to let this narrative roll through your mind. If you want to rise, keep an eye out for opportunities to demonstrate your abilities in a very visible way. Don't be shy about it, don't worry about messing up or doing it slightly imperfectly, just focus on getting the thing done and looping in the people that need to see it. And don't forget to make your boss look good, or at least not look bad :)

BTW, I graduated in 2008 and floundered (10$/hr work, door to door sales etc) until temping at 3M for 2 years and now I've been salaried for 5. My growth has been slow but steady - I haven't really focused much accelerating my career growth beyond the incremental progress I've made.

mm1970

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 11:00:47 AM »
It's really hard to judge when we don't know all the players.

Here's what I'm going to suggest - already been suggested - focus on making YOU better.

You can't *really* know how good your boss was at her old job, or her new job.  Do you even know what she is supposed to be doing?

I've had a reasonable amount of success in my 27+ years in the work force.  I could have had more success, but some of it is just due to where I work and what I do for a living.  And who I've had as bosses.

Why aren't you a success?  I don't know.
1.  What does your current job entail?  Are you doing it well?  Are you doing it to the best of your ability?
2.  What would be the next step?  The next promotion?  What do you have to do to get there?  What are the skills that are needed?

I HATE "comparison is the thief of joy" in many situations, except maybe this one.
I've heard people recommend the book "So Good They Can't Ignore You".  I haven't read it, but I HAVE focused on learning as much as I can in each job to do my job better.  At this point, while I'm not particularly enamored with my job, I am THAT PERSON who knows everything.  Almost literally "how do we do this?"  "Ask MM1970".  Because I've worked in a good 80% of the areas of the company and have a lot of cross-functional skills.

Now, onto promotions and management.  That is SO company dependent. Some companies really value assholes and loud, forward, pushy people (mine is like this!)  Do you want to be that way?  Is that what you want in order to get ahead?  Some bosses are just shitty.  I've had more than one, but one in particular completely derailed my career almost overnight.  He's long gone, thank god, but that stung.  We just didn't get along and he was not very capable.  But he was the boss!

Finally, do you have a burning desire to stay at a company for years?  If you want to move up and grow, it is not a bad idea to change jobs and companies every few years.  You get more money that way, and often more skills - you learn to deal with new people, use new systems, learn new tech (note: I have not done this).  What I have done is just tackled all of the new, hard things that come along.  Sometimes I really hate doing that!  But I do it anyway.

BicycleB

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2019, 11:29:31 AM »
I have been in similar shoes to the OP, in the sense of not being promoted sometimes and wondering why. Looking back, even when I was good at aspects of the job I was doing, I wasn't particularly good at doing things the way a supervisor would. There wasn't any real reason to promote me.

But that overlapped with the fact that I didn't recognize what the hiring criteria really were. Some of them could be and were articulated in hiring policies and procedures and so on, job descriptions and such - but some criteria never are articulated, and I didn't get those. If you're wondering, then there are criteria for hiring that you are by definition not recognizing. There's a significant chance you never will, but try to figure out what they are. If nothing else, read a lot of "Ask A Manager" columns to make sure that you yourself are as good at workplace behavior as YOU can be. 

There's a significant chance that you can move up in some way by finding another job. Like the other poster said, look for other jobs. Learn what is wanted. In my old workplace, a lot of entry level people were promoted after 2 or 3 years, but a lot weren't. The wise majority of those not promoted looked for other jobs. Often they found ones that paid better. Look around. If you don't obtain a good job in a few months, work towards one by improving your work skills, resume and interviewing skills. Also maybe tackle "What Color Is Your Parachute" - it might put you instead of others in the driver's seat for your career.

At some point, you will learn what your ceiling is. It is probably higher than where you are, but you will only find out by trying. Don't limit yourself.

Also build that stash along the way to smooth your transitions. Use your Mustache skills to ensure that this story ends with you in control of your life even without income increases - that's the original purpose of this blog! Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 11:38:23 AM by BicycleB »

goalphish2002

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2019, 12:37:33 PM »
The only person you can control is yourself.  I found "Deep Work" and "So Good They Can't Ignore You" to be great reads (both by Cal Newport). 

ice1717

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2019, 01:04:47 PM »
Some of the things that jumped out at me from your post was your clearly negative attitude about sales and professional networking.  What if you re-think selling as solving a problem for your "customer" instead of trying to trick them into buying something?  They have a problem and you have a solution you can provide.  Now, think about this from a selling yourself for a promotion perspective.  Your management has a need (a role you would like to be promoted to) and you have skills and capabilities to fill these needs.  You need to understand the needs, you need to have traits that solve the needs, and you need to be seen as a good solution(reputation, experience, etc.).  All things you would check off as a consumer if you were buying something. 

What if you think about professional networking as making connections with others at your company to understand what is important to them, helping them be more successful in their role, and gaining the chance to work in cross functional groups?  It IS a network of favors, but it doesn't have to be a slimy, ass-kissing, "disingenuous" effort.  The better you understand other functions in your company and what others care about, the better you can help others get their job done, AND the better they can do the same for you.  It's not politics, it's working with others to all better achieve the company mission.

If you want to be negative about the two, it will be hard for you to get ahead.  But if you combine the two, you CAN maintain good and pure intentions while also building out more skills than your current role provides, creating a reputation of someone who helps get things done and people want to work with/for, and better knowledge and access to roles the company needs to fill. 

Laura33

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 01:09:50 PM »
Your critical flaw is that you are interpreting "qualifications" too narrowly.  You clearly see yourself as more qualified than your current manager, because you have similar past checkered work history, but she doesn't have a college degree and you do, and she doesn't behave the way you think a professional person does.  But each company decides what "qualified" means; good Lord, if I'd worked in an environment where swearing was frowned on, I'd have been fucked.  Technical skills and college degrees and the like are awesome for getting that first job.  But every job you get after that -- particularly when you want to make the jump into management -- depends on your non-technical "soft" skills -- like how to make money for your company*, how to manage people (both up and down), how to communicate effectively, how to navigate difficult situations, etc.

It seems like your company likes what it sees from your current manager so far.  So what you need to do is stop focusing on what she doesn't have compared to you and start focusing on what she has that you don't -- what do the people who get promoted do, how do they act, that the people who don't get promoted don't?  Because those are the "qualifications" that your company clearly values, and that you are going to need to develop or improve on if you want to become one of those fast-risers.

You also need to cut the negative characterizations of building relationships as brown-nosing and sucking up to get ahead.  Sure, sometimes that's it.  But mostly managers want to promote people who make their lives easier.  And who makes their lives easier?  The people who take the time and effort to do the work in the way the manager likes it to be done, vs. the way the employee thinks it should be done.  The people who speak their language and who don't need to ask a zillion follow-up questions on trivialities (or, if the manager is a micromanager, who know to ask about every little thing because that reassures the manager that you're on it).  The people who provide the right information, on time, every time.  The people who go the extra mile, who take responsibility for their area and make sure things are always on track and managed efficiently, so that that's a whole area the manager doesn't even have to think about.  That's not "office politics" and brown-nosing -- that's basic common sense and psychology.

Finally, slow your roll.  You've been there 6 months, and you're clearly frustrated about being subordinate to someone who has been there for literally 6 times as long as you.  It takes time to adjust to a new working environment and new expectations and new communication styles and work preferences and all that.  And it takes time for your manager, and the management above her, to judge your own capabilities.  Even if you do compare yourself to your manager, if she's a new manager as you suggest, and she was there 2.5 years before you, then that sounds like she was there at least 2 years before she got her first promotion, right?  So how about instead of treating her as your inferior, try to treat her as a potential ally -- watch what she does and figure out how she likes things done; look/listen for the things that she does that seem to make her boss happy and the things that don't; talk with her about your career goals and ask what you need to improve to work your way up -- heck, ask her what she did that impressed the bosses to promote her for that job.

You are a smart guy, you can do this.  You just need to broaden your perspective of what makes a good employee and a good manager, and then put the ego aside and try to develop whatever additional skills you need to be noticed within your current company's culture.

*Note that that "sales" background that you so clearly see as beneath you is in fact something that most companies value extremely highly, because that's what brings the money in the door.  Again, this is a critical shift of focus you need to make.

mm1970

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2019, 01:18:23 PM »
Quote
What if you think about professional networking as making connections with others at your company to understand what is important to them, helping them be more successful in their role, and gaining the chance to work in cross functional groups?  It IS a network of favors, but it doesn't have to be a slimy, ass-kissing, "disingenuous" effort.  The better you understand other functions in your company and what others care about, the better you can help others get their job done, AND the better they can do the same for you.  It's not politics, it's working with others to all better achieve the company mission.

This is excellent.

Quote
You also need to cut the negative characterizations of building relationships as brown-nosing and sucking up to get ahead.  Sure, sometimes that's it.  But mostly managers want to promote people who make their lives easier.  And who makes their lives easier?  The people who take the time and effort to do the work in the way the manager likes it to be done, vs. the way the employee thinks it should be done.  The people who speak their language and who don't need to ask a zillion follow-up questions on trivialities (or, if the manager is a micromanager, who know to ask about every little thing because that reassures the manager that you're on it).  The people who provide the right information, on time, every time.  The people who go the extra mile, who take responsibility for their area and make sure things are always on track and managed efficiently, so that that's a whole area the manager doesn't even have to think about.  That's not "office politics" and brown-nosing -- that's basic common sense and psychology.

This too.

This is literally my job right now - herding cats, dealing with many opinionated, inflated egos, trying to drill down what we actually need to move forward, listen to people vent like I'm a therapist...and keep things moving.

I don't much like it, but I'm pretty good at it. I wonder if I should have taken more psychology in college as my electives to my chemical engineering degree...

Laura33

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2019, 01:44:21 PM »
I wonder if I should have taken more psychology in college as my electives to my chemical engineering degree...

I have found that having a strong-willed kid has fleshed out that educational gap.  ;-)

Proud Foot

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2019, 11:55:20 AM »
Fast forward to late last year and I finally took on a new job. I’ve been at it for 6 months. I really do like the company and the potential for opportunity however I don’t know what it is, but I feel like I’ve made so many mistakes to end up where I am. It all started when I realized how far one of my former colleagues at my previous job had come. Despite having not gone to college and not being particularly good at what she did previously in the company we were both at and having come close to being fired due to mistakes, she found a job at the company that I now joined and in a little less than 3 years has become my new boss and manager of our department. She’s a bit crude (curses openly and has this less than professional attitude) and I feel she’s a mediocre manager although she’s new to the role so the last part might be just be that. I am on good terms with her but when I see her I just don’t understand how it is she was able to pull it off. We are not friends but our working relationship is good. Including the fact I provided information to her from my previous workplace that really helped her in her business plan here. 

So you worked with her last around 3 years ago? I would use this as an opportunity to learn from her. Talk with her and find out what changed from the last job to now that made it possible for her to make the advancements she has.

mm1970

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Re: A dark rant about career and advice wanted (it's long)
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2019, 01:37:30 PM »
I wonder if I should have taken more psychology in college as my electives to my chemical engineering degree...

I have found that having a strong-willed kid has fleshed out that educational gap.  ;-)
For sure, parenting and management have a lot of overlap, I've found.