Author Topic: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement  (Read 7572 times)

Just Joe

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2020, 01:46:35 PM »
How can a person help others if they can't take care of themselves first?

Get one's self established, manage income and expenses so we can live sustainable lives - even retire early/late/at all. Then give time and knowledge as freely as possible. Sounds like an ideal life and purpose to me.

if we want to be critical of someone perhaps constructive criticism of celebrity style opulence would be reasonable. Why would a person need billions of dollars leading to a plethora of material possessions and opulence?

SwordGuy

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2020, 02:48:44 PM »
How can a person help others if they can't take care of themselves first?

Get one's self established, manage income and expenses so we can live sustainable lives - even retire early/late/at all. Then give time and knowledge as freely as possible. Sounds like an ideal life and purpose to me.

if we want to be critical of someone perhaps constructive criticism of celebrity style opulence would be reasonable. Why would a person need billions of dollars leading to a plethora of material possessions and opulence?

You mean like "Christian" preachers Joel Osteen or Franklin Graham or Jim Bakker or a veritable host of others of their ilk?

Sid Hoffman

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2020, 05:58:41 PM »
As a former believer, it's now clear to me that Christianity is flawed in numerous ways (as are all religions).

The sole purpose of the bible is subjugation.

Religion and faith are basically opposites, as religion is always works based (requires your actions and/or your money to prove you're good enough), but the New Testament makes it clear that even from the early days of the Church, this was a struggle among the teachers of Christ because everyone wanted to have some sort of works based salvation, but it simply doesn't work that way. The bible cannot be used (properly) for subjugation because your salvation is not works based. Yet here we are in the 21st century and nearly every major religion makes it clear you need to pay your temple tax, or tithe in order to prove you're doing good works. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out 90% of those who call themselves Christians are just doing works and not even saved at all, even the majority of priests and preachers who put money and power above actually preaching salvation by faith.

So I understand your frustrations. It's extremely frustrating for followers of Christ who have actually read the bible and know that all who preach on salvation through being a good enough person, paying your tithes, or anything else are nothing but false teachers giving a false impression of what it even means to follow Jesus.

SwordGuy

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2020, 08:45:18 PM »
As a former believer, it's now clear to me that Christianity is flawed in numerous ways (as are all religions).

The sole purpose of the bible is subjugation.

...

So I understand your frustrations. It's extremely frustrating for followers of Christ who have actually read the bible and know that all who preach on salvation through being a good enough person, paying your tithes, or anything else are nothing but false teachers giving a false impression of what it even means to follow Jesus.

It doesn't help that the largest politically active "Christian" denomination in the US was explicitly founded to defend White Supremacy and Black Enslavement.  I'm pretty sure some of Christ's message got pretty corrupted from that.

Weisass

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2020, 08:54:07 PM »
EconDiva  =  Jeffry Haver????

Just a thought.


Anyway just the thoughts from a filthy pagan. I don't think you should be able to quote from the bible in order to beg unless you are using Aramaic.

Splitter!

The Old TEstament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek.

It is actually quite a bit more complicated than that! There are Greek and Hebrew translations of the Hebrew Scriptures stretching back far enough that broad swaths of the Jewish people were using them each as the canon was being developed. It’s pretty fascinating actually learning about transmission through languages in the diaspora.  And as for the “new” testament, it is written in a mix of Greek and Aramaic, depending upon the book in question.

undercover

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2020, 06:47:41 AM »
Sure, pursuing wealth for the sake of accumulating and hoarding and then doing nothing with it will probably make you miserable. I struggle with this myself. I’ve been FI and semi-RE I guess for the past 5 years and I’ve struggled to find meaning and purpose. I don’t think wanting to save copious amounts of money is the problem though. I think the problem is my own outlook on life and the general meaningless of it from my perspective. I’ve never been super religious despite growing up in the rural south as a Christian.

I think this boils down to capitalism vs communism actually and is just using religion as a justification. Or maybe it’s just a stab at capitalism in general because without it there would be no such thing as “FIRE”. There’s nothing wrong with accumulating resources and becoming more productive/efficient as long as those resources are being put to good use. Everyone is their own little company and buying yourself time is just a form of “investing back into the company” so that you can pursue greater things.  I do think the notion that there are people under 30 who accumulate 25x expenses and just do nothing for the rest of their life is a myth. There’s nothing wrong with not pursuing wealth and innovation and staying at a moderate level of wealth while helping people in small ways, but the argument can be made that we also need people like Bill Gates who not only contributed great things (debatable I guess) to the world but has then used his wealth to try and lift the poorest people in the world out of extreme poverty.

I also think in general that the desire for wealth benefits everyone eventually because innovation leads to productivity/efficiency which leads to better lives for everyone. In order to become super wealthy you have to serve others by making things that people want. Your level of wealth is simply the result of the impact you’ve made on the world. Every “contribution” can be debated on whether it was good or bad but ultimately the intention is to make or do things that other people find valuable.

The truth is that everyone will become FIRE or close to it eventually. AI/UBI will make more and more people “FIRE”. People pursuing it now are just ahead of the curve I guess.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 07:10:29 AM by undercover »

SwordGuy

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2020, 09:03:51 AM »
Your level of wealth is simply the result of the impact you’ve made on the world.
Really?

Lots of people have had a major impact on the world, didn't have money and died poor.

1. Karl Marx

2. Joan of Arc

3. A host of soldiers in WWII who died young while winning battles, making damn near nothing while they did it, who saved the world from the Nazis.

4. Rosa Parks

You seem to have internalized a lot of the mythology of capitalism.   Maybe that's why things seem meaningless.

simonsez

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2020, 10:31:54 AM »
Sure, pursuing wealth for the sake of accumulating and hoarding and then doing nothing with it will probably make you miserable. I struggle with this myself. I’ve been FI and semi-RE I guess for the past 5 years and I’ve struggled to find meaning and purpose. I don’t think wanting to save copious amounts of money is the problem though. I think the problem is my own outlook on life and the general meaningless of it from my perspective. I’ve never been super religious despite growing up in the rural south as a Christian.
Isn't it wonderful, to have the luxury of life being meaningless and more leisure hours than you know what to do with?  If you grew up in a poorer country or >99% of human history, you wouldn't have the time to stop and think about philosophy (for good or bad, i.e. no time to extol life's pleasantries or wallow in self-pity).  You would have fields to sow/harvest or animals to hunt, children to raise, food to process/store/cook, sewing, cleaning, and water to collect.  We as a modern society still have these tasks but they pale in comparison to the time suck they used to be.

I'm a ways from FI but still can't be grateful enough for the modern amenities, technology, and medicine and still copious amount of leisure time afforded to me for relatively (to any point in history) little effort.

I look up at the stars and think how fatuous my individual life is on a grand scale and I feel refreshed to largely do as I please and try and make the most of life's journey and leave the world a little better than when I entered it.

obstinate

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2020, 10:40:46 AM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities. We see this to some degree with the law, where liberal jurists and conservative ones see the same law to mean different things, coincidentally always tending to mean whatever suits the preferred side's ideological purpose.

In the law, legislators try to write things as unambiguously as possible to prevent the courts from having too much flexibility in overriding their intent. But the authors of religious texts from thousands of years ago never anticipated all the different ways their words might be used. So religion has this same issue on steroids.

For this particular argument, you can go to the New Testament to find it being as difficult as a camel passing through the eye of a needle for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or you can go to the parable of the talents to see Jesus using metaphors of wealth and investing as exemplars of what his disciples ought to do, implicitly condoning wealth itself. You can look to the old testament to find David (a king, and therefore a wealthy man) being beloved of god, or Job rewarded for his long-suffering with riches. But you can also see the destitute prophet Noah gaining the Lord's favor as he learns about how to follow.

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 10:42:34 AM by obstinate »

SwordGuy

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2020, 10:58:58 AM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.   

ixtap

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2020, 11:11:00 AM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.

Every time someone tries to convince me that Trump has jackshit to do with their vision of God.

undercover

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2020, 12:31:51 PM »
Sure, pursuing wealth for the sake of accumulating and hoarding and then doing nothing with it will probably make you miserable. I struggle with this myself. I’ve been FI and semi-RE I guess for the past 5 years and I’ve struggled to find meaning and purpose. I don’t think wanting to save copious amounts of money is the problem though. I think the problem is my own outlook on life and the general meaningless of it from my perspective. I’ve never been super religious despite growing up in the rural south as a Christian.
Isn't it wonderful, to have the luxury of life being meaningless and more leisure hours than you know what to do with?  If you grew up in a poorer country or >99% of human history, you wouldn't have the time to stop and think about philosophy (for good or bad, i.e. no time to extol life's pleasantries or wallow in self-pity).  You would have fields to sow/harvest or animals to hunt, children to raise, food to process/store/cook, sewing, cleaning, and water to collect.  We as a modern society still have these tasks but they pale in comparison to the time suck they used to be.

I'm a ways from FI but still can't be grateful enough for the modern amenities, technology, and medicine and still copious amount of leisure time afforded to me for relatively (to any point in history) little effort.

I look up at the stars and think how fatuous my individual life is on a grand scale and I feel refreshed to largely do as I please and try and make the most of life's journey and leave the world a little better than when I entered it.

It’s either wonderful or hell. For me it tends to be in between most of the time.

I think a lot of those people are perfectly content in their own way because they don’t have time to contemplate purpose...they’re forced into it.

Anyway all I’m really trying to say is I think you can be capitalist, make all the monies, and also improve others lives and give back along the way. You don’t have to stay poor just because some religious text insinuates you should.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 12:59:28 PM by undercover »

ericrugiero

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2020, 01:01:23 PM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.

He is not right.  If he takes verses out of context maybe he could try to make an argument but he would be WAY off base.  Good job calling him on it. 

sherr

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2020, 01:10:24 PM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.

He is not right.  If he takes verses out of context maybe he could try to make an argument but he would be WAY off base.  Good job calling him on it.

Oh come on, it's like you didn't even bother to read what Obstinate said.

The whole reason we have a "Southern Baptist" denomination in the US instead of just the one unified "Baptist" denomination is because the "Southern" part split off round about the Civil War time because they believed the Bible justified slavery, and they quoted from it extensively to prove their point. Again, because it bears repeating; and is true whether we're talking about racism or money:

The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

thesis

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2020, 01:23:53 PM »
I had a big post typed up for this, but I realized I needed to revisit that passage more, first.

Basically, one interpretation I've heard was that richness was considered a sign that a person was going to heaven, so when Jesus says it's impossible for the rich to enter heaven, the disciples kind of freak out. "Who then can be saved?" After all, if they thought the rich were getting it, but it turns out the rich aren't, was everybody else hosed? And that's when Jesus says that all things are possible through God.

Anyway, will need to look more at this again before trying to sling a big post together :D

simonsez

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2020, 01:26:23 PM »
Sure, pursuing wealth for the sake of accumulating and hoarding and then doing nothing with it will probably make you miserable. I struggle with this myself. I’ve been FI and semi-RE I guess for the past 5 years and I’ve struggled to find meaning and purpose. I don’t think wanting to save copious amounts of money is the problem though. I think the problem is my own outlook on life and the general meaningless of it from my perspective. I’ve never been super religious despite growing up in the rural south as a Christian.
Isn't it wonderful, to have the luxury of life being meaningless and more leisure hours than you know what to do with?  If you grew up in a poorer country or >99% of human history, you wouldn't have the time to stop and think about philosophy (for good or bad, i.e. no time to extol life's pleasantries or wallow in self-pity).  You would have fields to sow/harvest or animals to hunt, children to raise, food to process/store/cook, sewing, cleaning, and water to collect.  We as a modern society still have these tasks but they pale in comparison to the time suck they used to be.

I'm a ways from FI but still can't be grateful enough for the modern amenities, technology, and medicine and still copious amount of leisure time afforded to me for relatively (to any point in history) little effort.

I look up at the stars and think how fatuous my individual life is on a grand scale and I feel refreshed to largely do as I please and try and make the most of life's journey and leave the world a little better than when I entered it.

It’s either wonderful or hell. For me it tends to be in between most of the time.

I think a lot of those people are perfectly content in their own way because they don’t have time to contemplate purpose...they’re forced into it.
Your life is meaningless on the cosmic scale but can be quite impactful to those around you.  Quit trying to find purpose as some romantic ideal of a human who has accomplished so much for their species (outer circles) and focus on your inner circles.  If they're empty, fill them!  Or if you prefer Maslow's Hierarchy, your psychological needs aren't being tended to while you're toppling over the self-actualization part (either that, or perhaps there was an overestimate of personal potential?).  Of the ~108 billion humans to have ever lived, if you looked at a tale of the tape mano-a-mano, I would impute that most would trade places with you in a heartbeat.

Find what makes you happy and then fill your life with a higher proportion of those activities/people.  To loosely get back to this thread, I am not religious either but appreciate the many 'buckets' that can be filled as a result of religion.  It's easy to see why it is such an important institution in so many people's lives.  The FI/FIREd lifestyle can mean many different things.  Some need certain types of structure more than others, human connection, belonging to groups, extroverted vs. introverted, caretaker, provider, hobbyist, traveler, side hustle, volunteering, degree of solitude, etc.  Having an existential crisis about a lack of meaning seems like you're just bored!

ericrugiero

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2020, 01:37:07 PM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.

He is not right.  If he takes verses out of context maybe he could try to make an argument but he would be WAY off base.  Good job calling him on it.

Oh come on, it's like you didn't even bother to read what Obstinate said.

The whole reason we have a "Southern Baptist" denomination in the US instead of just the one unified "Baptist" denomination is because the "Southern" part split off round about the Civil War time because they believed the Bible justified slavery, and they quoted from it extensively to prove their point. Again, because it bears repeating; and is true whether we're talking about racism or money:

The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

Yes, you can twist any text to your own priorities.  Yes, people (including the Southern Baptists in the past) have done that. 

SwordGuy did the right thing in confronting the person about his wrong beliefs.  I'm making the point that the Bible doesn't actually justify slavery.  You must twist the text to get that belief from the Bible. 

sherr

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2020, 01:48:46 PM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

Yes, you can twist any text to your own priorities.  Yes, people (including the Southern Baptists in the past) have done that. 

SwordGuy did the right thing in confronting the person about his wrong beliefs.  I'm making the point that the Bible doesn't actually justify slavery.  You must twist the text to get that belief from the Bible.

I don't want to derail this whole thread, but I think you are obviously wrong to make such broad declarations. Just because you or I don't like what it says doesn't mean we can ignore it either.

Maybe if you wanted to claim the New Testament doesn't "justify" slavery then you'd have a leg to stand on but the whole Bible? The Old Testament very explicitly allows for slavery, and the difference between "allows" and "justifies" is a very thin one.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 01:51:32 PM by sherr »

SwordGuy

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2020, 02:25:50 PM »
The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

...

Depending on where you fall on the issue of wealth personally, you can write an article like this, or you can be tax-cutting Republican politician who wants to make everything better for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Similarly, members of this board will probably tend to disagree with this interpretation, simply because it's not in our self-interest to agree with it. But someone who is poor or was already inclined to pursue lean-fire might agree with this, since it costs them nothing to do so.

The real takeaway is that motivated reasoning is strong and human rationality isn't all it's cracked up to be. I don't mean to take away from people's enjoyment of reading or debating the article. I just want to point out that basing arguments off of interpretations of texts is likely to sound convincing only to those who already agree.

You raise very good points!

I remember last fall when an historical re-enactor I interacted with pulled out a ten Bible verses to justify why white supremacy and black enslavement in the US was right and proper with God.

I wasn't nice about it.   Not even a teeny bit nice.   It's a disgusting belief and no one holding it should feel liked or respected by decent people.

I don't even care if he's right because any God who would think that's a good idea is a God that needs to be spit on, not worshiped.

He is not right.  If he takes verses out of context maybe he could try to make an argument but he would be WAY off base.  Good job calling him on it.

Oh come on, it's like you didn't even bother to read what Obstinate said.

The whole reason we have a "Southern Baptist" denomination in the US instead of just the one unified "Baptist" denomination is because the "Southern" part split off round about the Civil War time because they believed the Bible justified slavery, and they quoted from it extensively to prove their point. Again, because it bears repeating; and is true whether we're talking about racism or money:

The trouble with any religious text, or any text at all, if used as a basis for argumentation, is that one can twist and interpret the text to suit one's own priorities.

I'll just quote a comment I made BEFORE Obstinant made his comment:

It doesn't help that the largest politically active "Christian" denomination in the US was explicitly founded to defend White Supremacy and Black Enslavement.  I'm pretty sure some of Christ's message got pretty corrupted from that.

I'm well aware that people can corrupt the meaning of religious texts to justify what they want to do.

I'm also well aware that some religious texts have just plain evil stuff in them that should not be accepted.

Example:

God:  Abraham, go kill your son, Isaac.
Abraham:  Why?
God:  Because I said so.
Abraham:  Okey-dokey.

The correct answer was "Fuck you.   People deserve to be treated better than that.   Learn some fucking manners and morals if you want to be worshipped."

sherr

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2020, 02:29:04 PM »
I'll just quote a comment I made BEFORE Obstinant made his comment:

It doesn't help that the largest politically active "Christian" denomination in the US was explicitly founded to defend White Supremacy and Black Enslavement.  I'm pretty sure some of Christ's message got pretty corrupted from that.

I'm well aware that people can corrupt the meaning of religious texts to justify what they want to do.

I'm also well aware that some religious texts have just plain evil stuff in them that should not be accepted.

Example:

God:  Abraham, go kill your son, Isaac.
Abraham:  Why?
God:  Because I said so.
Abraham:  Okey-dokey.

The correct answer was "Fuck you.   People deserve to be treated better than that.   Learn some fucking manners and morals if you want to be worshipped."

For clarity I will point out that I was saying Eric didn't read what Obstinate said, not you. I agree with you.

Sunder

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Re: A Christian Perspective on the FIRE movement
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2020, 11:59:52 PM »
Practicing Christian here. The thread did kind of go off the rails, but I wanted to go back to the original question.

The author's argument seems to be largely predicated on his definition of "rich", then is supported by truncating biblical quotes. Let me first ask any of the readers this question. A person earns $2m in their life time through labour, but spends it all within his working lifetime. Another person earns $1m in their working life, then enjoys another $1m through interest and dividends in his non working life time. Who is richer? That's a rhetorical question, not one I expect opinions on.

That all said, we were created to work the earth. I'm not entirely comfortable with the "Retire Early" part of FIRE, but that again, depends on the definition of retirement. From paid work, nothing wrong with that, but so far, I've really enjoyed my work, so I'm not even sure I want to give that up. From labouring to love our God and our neighbour? Even if I make it, I won't be buying a boat to sail the world on my own. Not to say I won't do it for a few weeks at a time for refreshment and to enjoy His creation, but I think that as a goal, it is not in alignment with God's instructions.

My favourite bible verse is from Ecclesiastes 5:18-20.
Quote
This is what I have observed to be good: that it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them—for this is their lot. Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God. They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.

It's been my favourite verse, because in the early days of my career, I really enjoyed my work, and I worked hard, got recognised, promoted, and rewarded, while my friends complained about work, about not having enough money, etc. I felt absolutely guilty that I had it so good, and my friends still seemed to be labouring under a Genesis 3 curse.  That is, until a pastor pointed this verse out to me.

In conclusion for the part about the article, I don't feel that FIRE is antithetical to Christian beliefs, any more than money is antithetical to Christian beliefs. However, like money, it can become an idol, draw you away from purpose and meaning that God has directed us towards, and we need to be careful of it.

Back to the derailing, one other observation I wanted to make, was that it's curious what people expect from the bible. The accusation is often leveled that "The bible is just fairytales", and yet, when the dirty, gritty reality of the time is documented, it supposedly shows how evil God is? If you were writing fairytales, wouldn't you make God entirely "nice", rather than just "good"? Wouldn't you make the chosen people always victorious? But the old testament is a repeated cycle of broken relationship. A cycle of people committing evil, God's punishment (which is often read as "evil", because either God says he'll allow or send an evil nation to attack themBut then safety and protection was a promise conditional on all the terms of the covenant, which the Israelites were not upholding), followed by God's forgiveness and restoration of relationship with his people.

In many cases, when you dig down into the oft quoted passages to prove God supports something we innately feel is unjust or unloving, you find they are either concessions, or documenting events, not instructions or commands. A clear cut example is divorce. People cite how unfair it was that women could just be tossed out on a whim in biblical times. Well, yes, sort of. They could be and were anyway. The divorce rules were actually to regulate divorces, allow a non-violent end to a marriage, and allow the woman to remarry. In Matthew 19:8, this is clarified:

Quote
Jesus said, “Moses provided for divorce as a concession to your hard heartedness, but it is not part of God’s original plan. I’m holding you to the original plan, and holding you liable for adultery if you divorce your faithful wife and then marry someone else. I make an exception in cases where the spouse has committed adultery.”

It is more difficult to show with other topics like slavery, because the contemporary context was not captured nearly so clearly, but slavery was prevalent at the time, and the laws in the bible were actually to limit the harm that could be done. For starters, slaves could not be kept for more than 7 years. The most common form of slavery was debt slavery, where if you owed someone money, you could work it off. You could take slaves in war - which is, in my opinion, better than the common practice of the time, of slaughtering all men of the age who could hold a weapon, while taking the women and children as slaves. Oh, and if you did take a woman as a "sexual" slave, she pretty much gained rights close to marriage. (Which admitted in those days, were not what they are these days, but certainly still better than being chattel or what contemporaneous nations were doing).

There are parts of the bible that reflect a character of a God inconsistent with the gooey, syrupy, idealised version of God some atheists, and indeed some Christians want. I can't explain those. Perhaps a theologically trained academic or pastor could. But becoming a parent, I have a greater appreciation of what tough love means. It upsets me and angers me when my two boys physically fight and hurt each other. Can I stop them doing that? Of course, I could lock them both in their separate rooms where they can't fight. But the cost of that - to them - is not one I'm willing to bear. They need to learn to get on, they need interaction with each other. They need free run of the house to do things. Of course, they could choose to separate for a time, cool off, chill out, and then continue to enjoy companionship with each other, and freedom.

I see the same thing with God. Can he make a perfect world with no loss, no evil, no hurt? Of course. But at what price? If you don't want to experience evil, does that mean nobody else has the free will to commit evil? Given the bible said God wanted children, not servants, free will is probably a cost too high. But for those willing to be redeemed by him, who choose obedience and relationship, then that perfect world awaits.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 12:06:21 AM by Sunder »