Thoughts on how to maintain the “stealth” part of stealth wealth

[spartana]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

I did talk about it when I first FIREd but the reactions I got from others wasn't as positive as I had hoped. I lived in an expensive area of coastal Calif and most people my age were seriously chasing after all the shiny luxury status items and saw little value in a more modest lifestyle. So after one too many negative comments I just stopped talking about it.

Your experience may be different, especially if you are fat FIRE and already live a somewhat opulent lifestyle, then it's doubtful anyone will tell you how you're missing out on all the shiny luxury items by quitting your job when you could work years longer and buy ALL the things.  By being stealthy about my NW I can avoid those kind of discussions. Mostly.

[tj]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

I did talk about it when I first FIREd but the reactions I got from others wasn't as positive as I had hoped. I lived in an expensive area of coastal Calif and most people my age were seriously chasing after all the shiny luxury status items and saw little value in a more modest lifestyle. So after one too many negative comments I just stopped talking about it.

Your experience may be different, especially if you are fat FIRE and already live a somewhat opulent lifestyle, then it's doubtful anyone will tell you how you're missing out on all the shiny luxury items by quitting your job when you could work years longer and buy ALL the things.  By being stealthy about my NW I can avoid those kind of discussions. Mostly.

When I started blogging about personal finance, I had some people unfriend me. Their loss I guess.

[spartana]

^^^Yeah it can be complicated when dealing with friends - especially if you are fairly young and don't appear to have an income source other then investments. I know I've lost a few friends but I think that's was mostly because of lifestyle differences (them super spendy and me not) rather then because I was FIRE. But, as you know, living in a very HCOL and image/status driven place like Orange County isn't the easiest place to be a simple living FIREee.

[ROF Expat]

One advantage of stealth wealth is that some businesses will raise their prices for people they perceive as "wealthy."  My house isn't huge, but the lot is waterfront, so there's really no hiding its value. 

Some tradesmen give me ridiculously high bids for work at my home.  In a few cases they try to convince me I need unnecessary work because they assume I couldn't possibly know anything about home maintenance or repair. Contractor:  "Your whole house needs to be reroofed.  Look at the way those shingles are curling!"  Me: Those shingles aren't curling and don't need to be replaced.  They are slate..." 

On the other hand, beyond the house, people don't usually see typical signals of money.  I have had people come up when I am planting flowers and assume I'm the gardener.  They ask me if "the owners" are home.  I find this amusing. 

[GilesMM]

One advantage of stealth wealth is that some businesses will raise their prices for people they perceive as "wealthy."  My house isn't huge, but the lot is waterfront, so there's really no hiding its value. 

Some tradesmen give me ridiculously high bids for work at my home.  In a few cases they try to convince me I need unnecessary work because they assume I couldn't possibly know anything about home maintenance or repair. Contractor:  "Your whole house needs to be reroofed.  Look at the way those shingles are curling!"  Me: Those shingles aren't curling and don't need to be replaced.  They are slate..." 

On the other hand, beyond the house, people don't usually see typical signals of money.  I have had people come up when I am planting flowers and assume I'm the gardener.  They ask me if "the owners" are home.  I find this amusing.

I am convinced certain tradespeople will put my address in Zillow or Redfin before quoting a service.  I am tempted to give them a different nearby address for the quote, then say I made a mistake if we go forward, assuming the service is not square-footage dependent.

[Just Joe]

If anyone dies or marries I'll need to go shopping. I don't even own a suit.

I lost a close friend a year or so ago who was working hard to retire early (she was my age, 43).  I am sure she was smiling down on me in my thrift store suit.  :)
On a side note most people wear suits so infrequently that there are often fairly nice barely worn suits at our thrift store.  You'll have no issues should the need arise.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[tj]

Would it not be cheaper to just rent a suit if you seldom would wear one?

[Just Joe]

I am convinced certain tradespeople will put my address in Zillow or Redfin before quoting a service.  I am tempted to give them a different nearby address for the quote, then say I made a mistake if we go forward, assuming the service is not square-footage dependent.

I have heard something similar.

Had a contractor stop by for a cold-call the other day. $36K to resurface our aging asphalt driveway he suggested.
Nah. Not right now.
$25K he quickly suggested then.
Not right now... (I'll be shopping around for better prices or return to a gravel/grass driveway - we're rural). 

Also: I like shiny things but am content to buy used shiny things that were lovingly cared for by all the people who previously owned them. At a big discount compared to new shiny things. ;)

[Just Joe]

Would it not be cheaper to just rent a suit if you seldom would wear one?

Had not considered that. I will going forward though.

For most of the events over the past decade I've been able to get by with a coat, tie (or not thanks) and khakis or new jeans. Shiny shoes or boots.

Am working on a weight loss "project" (goal). Would not be good to spend $$$ on a suit only to lose significant weight in thenext 12-18 months...

[ixtap]

Would it not be cheaper to just rent a suit if you seldom would wear one?

I doubt it. DH paid more to rent just the best for a weekend than I paid for my whe wedding outfit.

[ixtap]

Would it not be cheaper to just rent a suit if you seldom would wear one?

I doubt it. DH paid more to rent just the vest for a weekend than I paid for my whe wedding outfit.

[mistymoney]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

I have questions about this! are you just talking about working, or being working class?

work·ing class
/ˌwərkiNG ˈklas/
noun
the socioeconomic group consisting of people who are employed in manual or industrial work.
"he came from the working class"
adjective
relating to people belonging to the working class.

[mistymoney]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

Yeah...I get that.

It can get a bit delicate with family.

Last time we talked about it, my mom thinks I should work as long as I'm able to. Dad thinks I should spend more money on myself and he's maybe not wrong about that, but alas....

When I told them if I work until age age 57 when I can start my government pension, the projections are that I will have so much more money than I'll ever need, of course brother in law piped up that I should give money to him then.  WTF?

Most people don't understand modeling, projections, and such.

It is unwise to give the probably rosy out look without the caveate that you could also go broke if the market tumbles.

[tj]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

Yeah...I get that.

It can get a bit delicate with family.

Last time we talked about it, my mom thinks I should work as long as I'm able to. Dad thinks I should spend more money on myself and he's maybe not wrong about that, but alas....

When I told them if I work until age age 57 when I can start my government pension, the projections are that I will have so much more money than I'll ever need, of course brother in law piped up that I should give money to him then.  WTF?

Most people don't understand modeling, projections, and such.

It is unwise to give the probably rosy out look without the caveate that you could also go broke if the market tumbles.

It's the combination of working an extra 15+ years (which massively increases the pension and also increases social security) and continuing to max out accounts without depleting portfolio. The numbers get kind of silly.

If I continued to work a government job until 57, I see a 0% chance of going broke unless I adopt some extraordinarily spendy habits in between now and then. My current spending would basically be covered by the pension and social security.

[twinstudy]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

I have questions about this! are you just talking about working, or being working class?

work·ing class
/ˌwərkiNG ˈklas/
noun
the socioeconomic group consisting of people who are employed in manual or industrial work.
"he came from the working class"
adjective
relating to people belonging to the working class.

Both. I see no reason to tell others that I am working when I have in fact FIREd and I also see no reason to say that I am a working class person when I am not (I would consider myself upper-middle). Not that it particularly matters in most contexts, but there is no reason to not be who are you are.

[mistymoney]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

Yeah...I get that.

It can get a bit delicate with family.

Last time we talked about it, my mom thinks I should work as long as I'm able to. Dad thinks I should spend more money on myself and he's maybe not wrong about that, but alas....

When I told them if I work until age age 57 when I can start my government pension, the projections are that I will have so much more money than I'll ever need, of course brother in law piped up that I should give money to him then.  WTF?

Most people don't understand modeling, projections, and such.

It is unwise to give the probably rosy out look without the caveate that you could also go broke if the market tumbles.

It's the combination of working an extra 15+ years (which massively increases the pension and also increases social security) and continuing to max out accounts without depleting portfolio. The numbers get kind of silly.

If I continued to work a government job until 57, I see a 0% chance of going broke unless I adopt some extraordinarily spendy habits in between now and then. My current spending would basically be covered by the pension and social security.

I'm just saying maybe don't act too rich and secure around BIL!

[GilesMM]

I am convinced certain tradespeople will put my address in Zillow or Redfin before quoting a service.  I am tempted to give them a different nearby address for the quote, then say I made a mistake if we go forward, assuming the service is not square-footage dependent.

I have heard something similar.

Had a contractor stop by for a cold-call the other day. $36K to resurface our aging asphalt driveway he suggested.
Nah. Not right now.
$25K he quickly suggested then.
Not right now... (I'll be shopping around for better prices or return to a gravel/grass driveway - we're rural). 

Also: I like shiny things but am content to buy used shiny things that were lovingly cared for by all the people who previously owned them. At a big discount compared to new shiny things. ;)

If by resurfacing you mean resealing, that runs a bit over $1/sq foot.  At $25k, you must have a very impressive driveway (10 feet wide and 2500 feet long?).

[wageslave23]

I am convinced certain tradespeople will put my address in Zillow or Redfin before quoting a service.  I am tempted to give them a different nearby address for the quote, then say I made a mistake if we go forward, assuming the service is not square-footage dependent.

I have heard something similar.

Had a contractor stop by for a cold-call the other day. $36K to resurface our aging asphalt driveway he suggested.
Nah. Not right now.
$25K he quickly suggested then.
Not right now... (I'll be shopping around for better prices or return to a gravel/grass driveway - we're rural). 

Also: I like shiny things but am content to buy used shiny things that were lovingly cared for by all the people who previously owned them. At a big discount compared to new shiny things. ;)

If by resurfacing you mean resealing, that runs a bit over $1/sq foot.  At $25k, you must have a very impressive driveway (10 feet wide and 2500 feet long?).

You are referring to sealcoating, previous poster is referring to basically a new driveway, two very different things.

[Siebrie]

In the village we live in we are clearly not as wealthy as the other inhabitants, but they all came from where we were and worked themselves into wealth. Quite a few built their own homes, some even built small apartment blocks that they are renting out. Most grow their own veg in their backyard, and quite a few have chickens. Within the village many people walk or cycle, and their is an active community life. Most inhabitants have a good decent house and a good decent car and go on vacation to France or Spain once a year. The wider family may have an apartment on the coast or a cabin in the mountains where they take turns staying. So here, we are not standing out.

However, I'm European and my husband is from really poor Africa. When we first bought this house I saw husband filming everything and speaking in his African language. I asked him what he planned on doing with that film, and he said he wanted to inform his (really poor) African relatives. We had a very long discussion on what the consequences of this information could be, and he has since not shared any information on our house (or car) with his relatives. Any pictures we send are in neutral environments. His relatives are still constantly asking for money, just because husband lives in Europe and married a European woman. We have set amounts on what money we sent for certain occasions, and we have made clear what help we offer their children for their education.

[clarkfan1979]

I think practicing stealth wealth to avoid getting targeted by strangers is pretty easy. However, there are exceptions. Michael Jordan's dad was car jacked and killed while driving a very expensive car in a very poor neighborhood.

Practicing stealth wealth among friends might not be necessary because it's likely you have similar incomes and quality of life. My peers have modest homes, but we tend to spend more on vacation and experiences. I was at a 4th of July party and we talked about my 6-week stay in Hawaii. They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

Practicing stealth wealth with family can be tricky. My wife and I were "rich" with time for two summers before we had our first kid. I teach college and don't work during the summer. My wife was working part-time. Because we had so much "extra time on our hands" our family invited us to do their chores and errands for them. It was super weird because they didn't really need our help. They just didn't want to do it and would ask us to do it for them. Thankfully the requests stopped during the 3rd summer when we had our first child.

I did help one family member move because they did need the help. It was 12 hours of lifting heavy boxes. Because we finished at 9:00 p.m. it was too late for the promised dinner. That dinner never actually happened. The spouse of my relative invited me to check out their house a few times. I then quickly reminded her that I have been to her house. With a confused look, really? Yeah, I moved all of your stuff into your new house with your spouse. It was a very long 12 hour day. I remember it vividly.

When I taught community college in Hawaii they had an annual conference for all the faculty to meet in one place, typically at Leeward Community College. They would pay professional speakers to give presentations on their area of expertise. There was maybe 6 sessions, 50 minutes each. You had a choice of 4-5 different speakers for each session. I went to a presentation on "dressing for success". This was probably 2016, so the tiny details are vague. However, the thesis of the presentation was that you needed to buy expensive clothes to get promoted and advance your career. However, the audience consisted of community college professors with very little opportunity for promotion. This was going to be our job for the next 30 years. Our raises are dictated by the state budget. The speaker also told a "sad story" of when she was a bank teller there was a customer with an excess amount of money, but dressed poorly. I think she used the word "homeless", but not meant to be literal. She talked at length of how unfortunate it was that this person had lots of money, but would not use it to buy nice clothes. Who know if the story is even true. However, I think it's a poor assumption to base someone's wealth on their checking account. Wealthy people drain their checking account down to the bare minimum every month and put it into the stock market and other investments.

[MMMarbleheader]

Lots of good points in this thread.

I will add that flashy displays of wealth are not as big in New England. I don't live in my namesake (Marblehead, MA) anymore but the new vs. old money divide was funny to watch. New money tended to be from "away" They each had their own yacht clubs. The new money one could be bought into with the right fee and had all amenities. The old money one was a more subtle look to it but I am pretty sure you had to have deep connections to get in. Old money usually won the races though.

I always enjoyed the old money crowd much more. It takes a certain level of crazy to choose to live in a 1700s house that gets destroyed year after year by the ocean. Subdued clothes, cars, etc. but they spent on boarding schools, colleges, and food/drink for parties. We had a thrift store in town that all proceeds went to the school and they just past the $1M mark a few years ago. We had a "buy nothing" group where I met so many interesting folks.

For a even more extreme version of stealth old money wealth, visit an island off the coast of Maine (Vinalhaven, Isle au Haut) in the summer. People paying big money to live without modern conveniences.

So year, traveling around MA, NH, VT, and ME you never know who is really rich or not because the rich ones don't show it, aside from maybe the boarding school or college bumper sticker.

[2sk22]

Practicing stealth wealth among friends might not be necessary because it's likely you have similar incomes and quality of life. My peers have modest homes, but we tend to spend more on vacation and experiences. I was at a 4th of July party and we talked about my 6-week stay in Hawaii. They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

Travel and experiences can be stealthy - as long as you don't talk about them and post on social media :-) 

After not being able to travel for many years (looking after ailing parents), my wife and I were finally able to resume traveling in 2022. We have gone on a few really enjoyable trips but haven't told a soul except my kids.

[Just Joe]

I am convinced certain tradespeople will put my address in Zillow or Redfin before quoting a service.  I am tempted to give them a different nearby address for the quote, then say I made a mistake if we go forward, assuming the service is not square-footage dependent.

I have heard something similar.

Had a contractor stop by for a cold-call the other day. $36K to resurface our aging asphalt driveway he suggested.
Nah. Not right now.
$25K he quickly suggested then.
Not right now... (I'll be shopping around for better prices or return to a gravel/grass driveway - we're rural). 

Also: I like shiny things but am content to buy used shiny things that were lovingly cared for by all the people who previously owned them. At a big discount compared to new shiny things. ;)

If by resurfacing you mean resealing, that runs a bit over $1/sq foot.  At $25k, you must have a very impressive driveway (10 feet wide and 2500 feet long?).

The quote was for new asphalt. I'm fairly confident that the driveway has many years left in it.

It does need to be resealed. That's on my list to get a few quotes on before summer is over.

Too long to do with 5-gal buckets and a broom. Would not be economical. I have done it myself on shorter driveways.

[chasingthegoodlife]

Practicing stealth wealth among friends might not be necessary because it's likely you have similar incomes and quality of life. My peers have modest homes, but we tend to spend more on vacation and experiences. I was at a 4th of July party and we talked about my 6-week stay in Hawaii. They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

Travel and experiences can be stealthy - as long as you don't talk about them and post on social media :-) 

After not being able to travel for many years (looking after ailing parents), my wife and I were finally able to resume traveling in 2022. We have gone on a few really enjoyable trips but haven't told a soul except my kids.

Does that ever feel inauthentic or ‘weird’ when talking with friends and family?

Genuinely curious - not criticising your approach.

I share so many inane details of my life with my inner circle that it would feel a bit strange talking around some of the most interesting experiences of my year.

Social media is a bit different though, all my Facebook ‘friends’ don’t need to see my holiday snaps.

[2sk22]

Practicing stealth wealth among friends might not be necessary because it's likely you have similar incomes and quality of life. My peers have modest homes, but we tend to spend more on vacation and experiences. I was at a 4th of July party and we talked about my 6-week stay in Hawaii. They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

Travel and experiences can be stealthy - as long as you don't talk about them and post on social media :-) 

After not being able to travel for many years (looking after ailing parents), my wife and I were finally able to resume traveling in 2022. We have gone on a few really enjoyable trips but haven't told a soul except my kids.

Does that ever feel inauthentic or ‘weird’ when talking with friends and family?

Genuinely curious - not criticising your approach.

I share so many inane details of my life with my inner circle that it would feel a bit strange talking around some of the most interesting experiences of my year.

Social media is a bit different though, all my Facebook ‘friends’ don’t need to see my holiday snaps.

I also do have an inner circle of friends and family with whom I talk about my travels. But even with them, I am careful about what I say. For example, when talking to my friends about our trip to Europe earlier this year, I didn't mention that we flew in business class and stayed in upscale hotels. When they talk about how horrible plane travel is, I just nod and agree :-)

[lhamo]

They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

This is actually a frugal choice if you want to see the Eras Tour.  Due to different demand/regulatory structures, it has been possible to get good resale seats at many of the European shows for around what the original ticket prices were in North America (I paid $250/ticket for me and my daughter to go to the Seattle show -- her friend's dad was lucky enough to snag seats through a special Amex offer).  I was toying with the idea of surprising DD with tickets to the Vancouver shows in December (last stop on the tour, going to be epic, and within easy driving distance).  Currently the horrible seats are in the 2-3k/ticket range, and good seats pretty much start at 4k and up.  Almost made me look at whether I could get cheap flights to Warsaw last weekend instead....

[Dave1442397]

They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

This is actually a frugal choice if you want to see the Eras Tour.  Due to different demand/regulatory structures, it has been possible to get good resale seats at many of the European shows for around what the original ticket prices were in North America (I paid $250/ticket for me and my daughter to go to the Seattle show -- her friend's dad was lucky enough to snag seats through a special Amex offer).  I was toying with the idea of surprising DD with tickets to the Vancouver shows in December (last stop on the tour, going to be epic, and within easy driving distance).  Currently the horrible seats are in the 2-3k/ticket range, and good seats pretty much start at 4k and up.  Almost made me look at whether I could get cheap flights to Warsaw last weekend instead....

My nieces flew from Edmonton, AB to Dublin, Ireland to see Taylor Swift a couple of weeks ago. They stayed at my parents' house, so they only had to pay for flights and concert tickets, which ended up being way less than concert tickets alone in Edmonton. They also went to another concert while they were there (I forget who).

[RetiredAt63]

They then felt comfortable enough to tell me that they are flying to Germany for a Taylor Swift concert.

This is actually a frugal choice if you want to see the Eras Tour.  Due to different demand/regulatory structures, it has been possible to get good resale seats at many of the European shows for around what the original ticket prices were in North America (I paid $250/ticket for me and my daughter to go to the Seattle show -- her friend's dad was lucky enough to snag seats through a special Amex offer).  I was toying with the idea of surprising DD with tickets to the Vancouver shows in December (last stop on the tour, going to be epic, and within easy driving distance).  Currently the horrible seats are in the 2-3k/ticket range, and good seats pretty much start at 4k and up.  Almost made me look at whether I could get cheap flights to Warsaw last weekend instead....

My nieces flew from Edmonton, AB to Dublin, Ireland to see Taylor Swift a couple of weeks ago. They stayed at my parents' house, so they only had to pay for flights and concert tickets, which ended up being way less than concert tickets alone in Edmonton. They also went to another concert while they were there (I forget who).

I also know of someone who did this.  It was cheaper and they got to go to Ireland!

[Turtle]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

The advantage of working from home full time is that folks are likely to continue to assume I’m still WFH even after I retire.

[ca-rn]

I've always thought it was bizarre that people would reveal their financial situation in the media, especially when it's so often a disaster.  Shame is endangered.

When it comes to "stealth wealth," we're actively trying to report a lower income, as I think many here are for various reasons, especially income tax.  The financial irony is that often the wealthier you are (paid off house, cars, solar panels, etcetera), the less income you really need to report since you don't need to use income to ptyay for the things you already own.  Perhaps that's blindingly obvious to people here, but it took me a bit to realize that if you hold your lifestyle constant, income and wealth will often have an inverse relationship over time.

I honestly appreciate people being open about their finances/lifestyle on their blogs/videos and in articles- it normalizes talking about finances and exposes us to different lifestyles that the majority may never of learned about.

I learned about FIRE from these blogs!

Personally maintain stealth wealth by living my basically low cost lifestyle in a working class neighborhood.  My neighbors saw me sell my car and now see me walk/bike while they still have their newish cars...  What they don't know is the mortgage will soon be paid off and I'll FIRE next year!

[Much Fishing to Do]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

The advantage of working from home full time is that folks are likely to continue to assume I’m still WFH even after I retire.

Yes, my friends have all just thought I've just become more social over the last few years....only a couple know I've gone from 70 hrs/wk working to 15 and just literally have the time to do whatever...working from home (and always odd hours anyway) noone really notices the difference outside of spouse and kids...

[jeroly]

I wonder whether if, in our post-pandemic world, it is now easier to maintain stealth wealth - the fact that somebody doesn't leave the house every day (possibly in a suit, as was requisite for most of my working life) to earn an income doesn't necessarily mean that they don't earn an income any more - they might just WFH. 

Still, if you want to be very serious about stealth, I think you need a very 'mustachian' / austere lifestyle that doesn't raise red flags - no fancy cars, don't live in a fancy house or apartment, don't subscribe to any newspapers, magazines, or streaming services that would ID you as someone with above-average finances, don't make large political contributions, don't make charitable contributions where you are flagged as some level of benefactor (e.g. 'Patron', 'Sponsor', 'Host', etc.), and so forth. If you had a particularly nosy and determined neighbor they could probably get that sort of data and get a good handle on your probable wealth level (e.g. do you subscribe to 'Private Island Monthly?')

[ATtiny85]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

The advantage of working from home full time is that folks are likely to continue to assume I’m still WFH even after I retire.

Yeah, I am out for runs and yardwork at all different times of my workday, depending on schedule. Shortly when I retire, it really won't change that look much at all.

If you had a particularly nosy and determined neighbor they could probably get that sort of data and get a good handle on your probable wealth level (e.g. do you subscribe to 'Private Island Monthly?')

I am so rich, I buy subscriptions for all my neighbors to throw the nosy ones off.

[GuitarStv]

I was on the bottom stairs waiting outside the courthouse before it opened so I could go for jury duty selection.  I was wearing what seemed to me to be regular clothes - jeans from high school (with only minor rips in the knees), a  baggy hoodie, black toque I've had since elementary school, old pair of Doc Martens, and a backpack with my packed lunch in it.  I hadn't shaved for a couple days because, fuck it, it's jury duty.  So I'm just sitting there, minding my own business and someone throws money at me.  And then a little while later someone else does.  Eventually I had to get up and move so they would stop pestering me.

Stealth wealth achieved!

(My wife makes me dress better now if I'm going downtown . . . she seems to think I might have the problem of excessively stealthy wealth.)

[Villanelle]

I was on the bottom stairs waiting outside the courthouse before it opened so I could go for jury duty selection.  I was wearing what seemed to me to be regular clothes - jeans from high school (with only minor rips in the knees), a  baggy hoodie, black toque I've had since elementary school, old pair of Doc Martens, and a backpack with my packed lunch in it.  I hadn't shaved for a couple days because, fuck it, it's jury duty.  So I'm just sitting there, minding my own business and someone throws money at me.  And then a little while later someone else does.  Eventually I had to get up and move so they would stop pestering me.

Stealth wealth achieved!

(My wife makes me dress better now if I'm going downtown . . . she seems to think I might have the problem of excessively stealthy wealth.)

To be fair, sleeping on a sidewalk or park bench really wouldn't be much of a change for you. 

[Tasse]

I was on the bottom stairs waiting outside the courthouse before it opened so I could go for jury duty selection.  I was wearing what seemed to me to be regular clothes - jeans from high school (with only minor rips in the knees), a  baggy hoodie, black toque I've had since elementary school, old pair of Doc Martens, and a backpack with my packed lunch in it.  I hadn't shaved for a couple days because, fuck it, it's jury duty.  So I'm just sitting there, minding my own business and someone throws money at me.  And then a little while later someone else does.  Eventually I had to get up and move so they would stop pestering me.

My father-in-law, husband, and I were once chased down in a park by someone who wanted to be CERTAIN we knew they were offering a free hot meal in the nearby picnic shelter. Either they make it a policy to offer it to absolutely everyone who passes, or they couldn't imagine you would take a walk at 40 degrees F if you had any alternative. (40s and sunny in Colorado is gorgeous weather!)

I think it's typical to dress a little bit nicely for jury duty, but now that you point it out I have no clue who you're supposed to be trying to impress.

[tj]

This is what the juror website says for the summons I got recently:

Courtroom Attire:
As the temperature in the courthouse varies with preferences and areas, dress in layers, comfortably but appropriately. Business casual attire is suggested. Shorts and tank tops are not appropriate courtroom attire.

[GuitarStv]

I think it's typical to dress a little bit nicely for jury duty, but now that you point it out I have no clue who you're supposed to be trying to impress.

Jury duty - sure, maybe.  But this was jury selection.  I was one of 320 people who were required to leave work, go downtown, then sit and wait in a room for five days while lawyers decided that they didn't need a jury at all.  The jury selection process can kiss my ass.  They're already wasting my time, I don't need to put on a fancy costume to make them feel better about it.

[Glenstache]

This has been an interesting thread to read through, and topical for me as I figure out how to discuss "what I do for work" at my partner's work events, etc. In the short time I've settled on just taking a break from work and getting un-burned out (not far from the truth).

But it really gets at the question of what the purpose of wealth is and what it means in different circles. Displays of weath can be a symbol of status.  It can be a proof of entry to some elitist organizations. It can also be a negative where you are different from some group (family/friends/etc). It can be a source of jealousy or viewed as a way to solve a problem for others. Navigating stealth wealth has a pretty variable set of social cues and consequences depending on context.

One of the things I really appreciated in MMM meetups I've gone to and in the forums is the ability to openly discuss money without too much judgement (facepunches of course being savored). That ranged from dumpster diving afficionados to those with pretty eye watering staches. The social status was in being clear eyed about where you were, where you wanted to be, and how to prioritize what was important to you.

A tanget to stealth wealth is how to have those conversations to help others without spilling your personsal financial beans. In my last couple of working years, I did a couple of lunch gatherings with co workers to discuss basic elements of putting together a financial plan for retirement. This included FIRE concepts, but also just a lot of basic financial literacy to know how to make choices: what is an expense ratio, what are Roth and Traditional IRAs, what is the employer match, how does compounding play out over time? At the outset, I set a very clear rule that nobody could ask anyone else or talk about what their net work or indiviual financial situation was. The purpose was somewhat self serving, but also to allow people to ask questions without being on that particular spot.

I have some good friends that I discuss these things with, but who also are interested in it on a conceptual basis. We high five when they paid off their mortgage early and are doing well by their personal metrics. Stealth wealth is useful, but being able to share and encourage friends along the way can also be a rewarding dimension with the correct set of friends.

[twinstudy]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

[Glenstache]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

Some of us want to be selected for jury duty. Dockers and a polo shirt, it shall be! I've personally felt much more civicly grounded after serving and would be happy to serve again. The details of the case were sad and frustrating, but it was fair.

[GilesMM]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

Showing disrespect or lack of understanding for the court system by dressing poorly can certainly lower your chances for being selected.  I'm not sure sure about dressing well - I think that could increase your chances of selection.  I don't assume all well dressed people are in finance.  Many of them just care about their appearance.

[GuitarStv]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

Showing disrespect or lack of understanding for the court system by dressing poorly can certainly lower your chances for being selected.  I'm not sure sure about dressing well - I think that could increase your chances of selection.  I don't assume all well dressed people are in finance.  Many of them just care about their appearance.

I absolutely have zero respect for any system that needlessly yanks three hundred plus people out of work for a week without cause.  There were no people selected for jury duty from the extremely large group that I was a part of - regardless of costume they were wearing.  It was a total exercise wasting time and energy, and all involved in creating the process should feel deep shame to have been part of this deliberate and intentional destruction of value.

[twinstudy]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

Showing disrespect or lack of understanding for the court system by dressing poorly can certainly lower your chances for being selected.  I'm not sure sure about dressing well - I think that could increase your chances of selection.  I don't assume all well dressed people are in finance.  Many of them just care about their appearance.

I should have clarified - by dressing well I don't mean being neat and tidy and kempt. I mean wearing a suit.

Wear a suit and tie and you will be peremptorily challenged by one of the parties - I guarantee it.

[Much Fishing to Do]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

I've always found the easiest way out was for me to truthfully answer the question as to whether I may have any preconceived assumptions or biases regarding the guilt or innocence of the accused with a simple "You mean, besides them being arrested and charged with the crime?"

i don't think how I dressed mattered.

[YHD]

Stealth from whom?

The uber wealthy are already effectively stealth, not visible to mere mortals in the day to day.  I may know names of the 50 wealthiest people.  Odds that I recognize them and their level of wealth in the minuscule chance that we would incidentally occupy adjacent physical space are effectively zero.

[Morning Glory]

If you want to make sure you are never selected on a jury simply dress very well or very badly. If you dress very well then the parties will assume you are a finance/business type and one of the parties (probably whoever has the worse case on paper, or whichever party relies more on emotional sympathy to win the case) will challenge you. The opposite applies if you dress in a slovenly way. The jurors who remain after challenges tend to be vanilla types.

Some of us want to be selected for jury duty. Dockers and a polo shirt, it shall be! I've personally felt much more civicly grounded after serving and would be happy to serve again. The details of the case were sad and frustrating, but it was fair.

Khakis and a polo might get you rousted these days. That + neck gaiters is the chosen uniform of a couple of hate groups around here.

[ATtiny85]

Stealth from whom?

The uber wealthy are already effectively stealth, not visible to mere mortals in the day to day.  I may know names of the 50 wealthiest people.  Odds that I recognize them and their level of wealth in the minuscule chance that we would incidentally occupy adjacent physical space are effectively zero.

?

Stealth from one’s extended family, stealth from any opportunistic thug, and so on.