2023 Chevy Bolt

[Peachtea]

It is amazing to me how a post that started exploring a relatively affordable 2023 Chevy Bolt transformed into a luxury spendypants story about buying a Tesla.....

It's pretty jarring reading classic MMM posts about cars and then seeing half the forum threads gleefully exclaiming how a Tesla is such an incredible deal now that it's comparable in cost to a F-150. A lot of "spending your way to FI" going on these days.

I'll stick with my 10 year old 50mpg hybrid. A new car is not justifiable to me, electric or not.

I actually reread the mmm posts and comments before buying our new Bolt EUV. I was left pretty frustrated. A 2 year old Prius for 10k in 2011, 14k after discounts for a new 2016 leaf, a 2016 leaf for 10k in 2019 etc. I had always thought if we someday needed a car we'd by a 3-5 year old car for 10-15k. But that's not realistic today. To match those 10k used prices today you're talking about a 10-12 year old car. Which while perhaps still more frugal than a new car, it is more extreme (not sure that's the right word but can't think of a better one right now) than suggesting someone buy a 3-5 year old used car to save money.

[GilesMM]

It is amazing to me how a post that started exploring a relatively affordable 2023 Chevy Bolt transformed into a luxury spendypants story about buying a Tesla.....

It's pretty jarring reading classic MMM posts about cars and then seeing half the forum threads gleefully exclaiming how a Tesla is such an incredible deal now that it's comparable in cost to a F-150. A lot of "spending your way to FI" going on these days.

I'll stick with my 10 year old 50mpg hybrid. A new car is not justifiable to me, electric or not.

I actually reread the mmm posts and comments before buying our new Bolt EUV. I was left pretty frustrated. A 2 year old Prius for 10k in 2011, 14k after discounts for a new 2016 leaf, a 2016 leaf for 10k in 2019 etc. I had always thought if we someday needed a car we'd by a 3-5 year old car for 10-15k. But that's not realistic today. To match those 10k used prices today you're talking about a 10-12 year old car. Which while perhaps still more frugal than a new car, it is more extreme (not sure that's the right word but can't think of a better one right now) than suggesting someone buy a 3-5 year old used car to save money.

Used car prices surged the last couple years. But you can still find 2017-2018 Leaves for under $15K. Some with fairly low mileage as well.

[JLee]

I have a Bolt EUV arriving next week and placed an order for a Tesla model Y this past Saturday. I’m only going to buy one of the two and I’m totally conflicted.

Love the EUV from test driving it. A little concerned for small things like no integrated garage door opener (homelink) and yellow/green stitching on nice gray leather interior (why!??). My premier (no packages) will be $36,300 out the door and it qualifies for both the California $2k EV rebate and $7.5k Fed tax credit. Net of $27k

The model Y would be a great 10+ year car for us. The 81KW battery is easily worth $10k over the Bolt’s 65KW. I really don’t like the glass roof (too much sun).  At $53,990 the out-the-door price is $61k. It doesn’t qualify for the California $2k EV rebate, but does for the $7.5$K fed tax credit. Net of $53.5k

I wouldn’t be using either of these EVs for long trips. We have an ICE SUV that we enjoy using for long trips and camping.

Unless something changes, I’ll be bringing home the Bolt EUV. If it lasts 10 years then I would consider it a very good deal.

This is where I don't understand buying new cars. Checking cars.com, in my area a used Bolt EV is ~$21k (the EUV vs EV seems to be only styling? So doesn't matter). A used Tesla Y is about $45k (and I note several have "price drop" on the listing..) So even after rebates you'd save $6k or almost $10k. You'd be paying about 20% more, for what? A few miles less on the car? But still does the same thing.. Totally doesn't seem worth it.

The EUV is bigger - they are different cars. The cheapest used EUV within 100 miles of me is $29,925.  A new one is about the same price, less a $7500 tax credit.

Are you comparing used base models to new premium models? The cheapest Bolt EV within 100 miles is of me $19,682 and it's a 2017 LT with 68,948 miles on it. A new LT is $27,495 minus $7500, so $19,995.

Not from what I read. Range is the same too, you know; what actually matters..
"Realistically, the differences are minimal. The EUV offers a more rugged exterior styling with an SUV-style body, while the EV maintains its compact, hatchback body style. The powertrain, battery and range are all the same. The EUV offers more backseat room, while the EV offers more storage space"
https://www.pattersonkilgore.com/chevy-bolt-ev-bolt-euv-differences/

I just compared the cheapest bolt on cars.com. I never get "premium" nonsense (to look cool..?), and assumed frugal people would be the same.. (edit: think it was 40k mi for $22k, no idea on trim). I guess if you NEED more back seat space? But then why buy a $30k+ car? Just get a used Fit for ~30-40% less!

If a new is less than used? Uhh..? That just sounds dumb? Yes there is the used EV tax credit, but at least in our case we're not eligible.

You specifically said "only styling" -- the EUV is six inches longer than the EV.  Similar they may be, they are not the same. From your own link:

There’s no denying that the 2022 Chevy Bolt is awesome. However, despite its awesomeness, it doesn’t appeal to everybody. Some folks want a bigger vehicle, especially with the crossover craze we’re currently caught up in.

That’s why Chevy brought us the 2022 Chevy Bolt EUV, an SUV-inspired model that delivers many of the same exciting features but with a slightly more grown-up look.

As mentioned by @Peachtea, a new base Bolt EV (which is presumably what you're finding on cars.com) is $20k after tax credit.

[Scandium]

You specifically said "only styling" -- the EUV is six inches longer than the EV.  Similar they may be, they are not the same. From your own link:

There’s no denying that the 2022 Chevy Bolt is awesome. However, despite its awesomeness, it doesn’t appeal to everybody. Some folks want a bigger vehicle, especially with the crossover craze we’re currently caught up in.

That’s why Chevy brought us the 2022 Chevy Bolt EUV, an SUV-inspired model that delivers many of the same exciting features but with a slightly more grown-up look.

As mentioned by @Peachtea, a new base Bolt EV (which is presumably what you're finding on cars.com) is $20k after tax credit.

yeah I didn't read the whole article, just the summary. Which mentioned "exterior styling". And even the quote you posted says "more grown up look", lol, like who the hell cares?! Still unclear whether it's actually bigger, isn't it just the cargo space?

But even so, if ones needs more space I still don't see the point of a brand new $30k car. Just get something 5+ years old with the space then! Idk, a fit, prius V, subaru thing, any hatchback..? 30 grand is just so much money..
I checked the article again; where do you see it's 6" longer? I can't find that. Just says back seat legroom is longer in the EUV

[JLee]

You specifically said "only styling" -- the EUV is six inches longer than the EV.  Similar they may be, they are not the same. From your own link:

There’s no denying that the 2022 Chevy Bolt is awesome. However, despite its awesomeness, it doesn’t appeal to everybody. Some folks want a bigger vehicle, especially with the crossover craze we’re currently caught up in.

That’s why Chevy brought us the 2022 Chevy Bolt EUV, an SUV-inspired model that delivers many of the same exciting features but with a slightly more grown-up look.

As mentioned by @Peachtea, a new base Bolt EV (which is presumably what you're finding on cars.com) is $20k after tax credit.

yeah I didn't read the whole article, just the summary. Which mentioned "exterior styling". And even the quote you posted says "more grown up look", lol, like who the hell cares?! Still unclear whether it's actually bigger, isn't it just the cargo space?

But even so, if ones needs more space I still don't see the point of a brand new $30k car. Just get something 5+ years old with the space then! Idk, a fit, prius V, subaru thing, any hatchback..? 30 grand is just so much money..
I checked the article again; where do you see it's 6" longer? I can't find that. Just says back seat legroom is longer in the EUV

Three seconds on Google provides the answer directly from Chevrolet.

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/2022-bolt-euv-bolt-ev.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2021/feb/0214-boltev-bolteuv-specifications.html

[TomTX]

Three seconds on Google provides the answer directly from Chevrolet.

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/2022-bolt-euv-bolt-ev.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2021/feb/0214-boltev-bolteuv-specifications.html

So, my takeaway is that unless you are obsessed with the "style" of the EUV, the EV is a better choice. Longer range, generally better interior volume.

[LD_TAndK]

So, my takeaway is that unless you are obsessed with the "style" of the EUV, the EV is a better choice. Longer range, generally better interior volume.

The only EUV advantage I see is 39 inch rear seat legroom vs 36 for the EV. That could make a difference if you're carrying adults in the rear seat regularly. Ridiculous that people like the SUV look so much though.

[Paper Chaser]

It's not just a slight difference in leg room for the second row, or "SUV styling" steering buyers toward the EUV. The Bolt EUV offers driving aids and optional features that the regular Bolt does not. The regular Bolt is the low option, inexpensive choice. The Bolt EUV is the better appointed choice with more bells and whistles (and higher profits for GM):

https://topelectricsuv.com/news/chevrolet/chevrolet-bolt-euv-details/

[GilesMM]

If you are in California and qualify for all the incentives you can get a Bolt for 57% off, apparently, like this lucky person from Leasehackr:


2022 Chevy Bolt Base with driver confidence package and safety package
MSRP: $33,830
Sale Price: : $33,830
Chevy rebates: $9,750 (5,000 for 2022 models, 3,750 for lease loyalty, 1,000 for family and friends discount)
Non-Chevy Rebates: $9,500 (7,500 Federal, 2,000 California)
Lease Disposition fee cancelation from prior lease $500
This totals to a reduced price of $14,580 not including the $500 EVGo credit that Chevy provides.

[englishteacheralex]

PTF--we're thinking of buying a 2023 Bolt and I'm researching right now.

[Sandi_k]

PTF--we're thinking of buying a 2023 Bolt and I'm researching right now.

DH bought both a 2017 and 2022 Bolt (he got a CA lemon law buyout on the 2017 MY due to the inability to do a full charge).

Let me know if you have any questions.

[jpvt128]

PTF--we're thinking of buying a 2023 Bolt and I'm researching right now.

Feel free to reach out with any questions, I have spent many hours on this.

They are scarce right now. It took 5 weeks and reaching out to 45 dealers before I could get a deposit on one at MSRP (don't pay a dealer markup!) that's in transit. Hopefully I'll have it in two weeks. I'm getting $12.8k off (Full federal tax credit, state rebate, local utility rebate, and GM supplier discount) along with a free charger, free 240v outlet install, and discounted electricity- 60 cents per gallon equivalent, for off peak charging.

 Make sure you check your state and local incentives. I never thought buying a new car would be the Mustachian move but it certainly is in this case.

[englishteacheralex]

PTF--we're thinking of buying a 2023 Bolt and I'm researching right now.

Feel free to reach out with any questions, I have spent many hours on this.

They are scarce right now. It took 5 weeks and reaching out to 45 dealers before I could get a deposit on one at MSRP (don't pay a dealer markup!) that's in transit. Hopefully I'll have it in two weeks. I'm getting $12.8k off (Full federal tax credit, state rebate, local utility rebate, and GM supplier discount) along with a free charger, free 240v outlet install, and discounted electricity- 60 cents per gallon equivalent, for off peak charging.

 Make sure you check your state and local incentives. I never thought buying a new car would be the Mustachian move but it certainly is in this case.

Fascinating. We live on Oahu. I think it may be a lost cause as to whether we can actually locate a Bolt on island. Do you actually like the car? Prior to this unusual time, I would never even have considered a Chevy. I've always driven old Hondas and Toyotas.

A Tesla is completely out of the question. Prius is crazy expensive. Used cars seem like terrible value. And so...we're in this odd position of considering a Chevy Bolt. New.

But actually finding one to buy seems challenging. Living on an island means that we don't care about the range of the car. But neither does anyone else here (generally).

Is it true that the cost of maintenance is very low, since you don't have to change the oil/brakes?

I'm wondering if it's even possible to try to test drive one.

[JLee]

PTF--we're thinking of buying a 2023 Bolt and I'm researching right now.

Feel free to reach out with any questions, I have spent many hours on this.

They are scarce right now. It took 5 weeks and reaching out to 45 dealers before I could get a deposit on one at MSRP (don't pay a dealer markup!) that's in transit. Hopefully I'll have it in two weeks. I'm getting $12.8k off (Full federal tax credit, state rebate, local utility rebate, and GM supplier discount) along with a free charger, free 240v outlet install, and discounted electricity- 60 cents per gallon equivalent, for off peak charging.

 Make sure you check your state and local incentives. I never thought buying a new car would be the Mustachian move but it certainly is in this case.

Fascinating. We live on Oahu. I think it may be a lost cause as to whether we can actually locate a Bolt on island. Do you actually like the car? Prior to this unusual time, I would never even have considered a Chevy. I've always driven old Hondas and Toyotas.

A Tesla is completely out of the question. Prius is crazy expensive. Used cars seem like terrible value. And so...we're in this odd position of considering a Chevy Bolt. New.

But actually finding one to buy seems challenging. Living on an island means that we don't care about the range of the car. But neither does anyone else here (generally).

Is it true that the cost of maintenance is very low, since you don't have to change the oil/brakes?

I'm wondering if it's even possible to try to test drive one.

FWIW the only maintenance I had to do on my Model 3 in 29k miles was adding wiper fluid.  I did have the cabin air filter changed right before I sold it, just so it was fresh.

I had a Bolt a few years ago and had to change the headlights - HIDs had worn out and were going on and off. I believe the new ones are LED so that's hopefully a non-issue now.

[TomTX]

Why did you sell a (presumably purchased new) Model 3 after that few miles? Did you dislike it? If so, please be specific. Did you want some other new shiny? Please elaborate.

[JLee]

Why did you sell a (presumably purchased new) Model 3 after that few miles? Did you dislike it? If so, please be specific. Did you want some other new shiny? Please elaborate.

My launch day Lightning preorder finally arrived and my Model 3 was still worth more than I paid for it new.

NJ has no sales tax on EVs, so transaction costs are minimal. 

[curious_george]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

[TomTX]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

California? Here in Central Texas I'm finding all of five Bolts under $22k and within 200 miles (all but one 2017 models, and this distance range covers the vast majority of the population in Texas: Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Houston, etc.)

[JLee]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

What part of the country? There's one within 500 miles of me (northern NJ) that's (just) under $17k, and it's a 2017 with 90k miles on it.

[grantmeaname]

They don't exist for $16k in the midwest either.  That's a screaming deal.

[GilesMM]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

What part of the country? There's one within 500 miles of me (northern NJ) that's (just) under $17k, and it's a 2017 with 90k miles on it.

What is to stop you from buying a Bolt for $16k, taking the $4k tax credit, then turning it around and selling it for $16k?

[JLee]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

What part of the country? There's one within 500 miles of me (northern NJ) that's (just) under $17k, and it's a 2017 with 90k miles on it.

What is to stop you from buying a Bolt for $16k, taking the $4k tax credit, then turning it around and selling it for $16k?

Who is going to buy it from a private seller for $16k when they could go buy from a dealer for $16k and take the $4k tax credit?

[grantmeaname]

What stops you is only dealer used sales are eligible for the credit.

[curious_george]

I am seeing used Chevy Bolts for sale around 16k now.

After used ev tax credit this is around 12k.

12k for a chevy bolt is starting to get awfully tempting...

What part of the country? There's one within 500 miles of me (northern NJ) that's (just) under $17k, and it's a 2017 with 90k miles on it.

What is to stop you from buying a Bolt for $16k, taking the $4k tax credit, then turning it around and selling it for $16k?

Who is going to buy it from a private seller for $16k when they could go buy from a dealer for $16k and take the $4k tax credit?

You can do this if you buy it from a dealership and then sell it private party if you just want the tax credit...in theory.

However - the IRS does specify it must be bought for use and not resale, and you also have to list the VIN and the dealership you bought it from, among other things. I don't see anything listed for how long you must own the vehicle before selling it in order to qualify for the credit. There are a lot of very specific requirements that must be met in order to qualify though.

A lot of people don't actually pay federal taxes, so may not care about the tax credit when making their purchasing decisions.

This is not tax advice. :)

See here for further reading: https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

[grantmeaname]

The second sale value is $4k lower because it sells without the credit in a private party sale, though.

[englishteacheralex]

Ok, not to be dumb, but can anyone give me a rundown of how the tax credit works? There's a 2023 Chevy Bolt available on island. It's a base model, no extra stuff. We don't need heated seats/steering wheel in Hawaii. The quoted price online is $28k.

We don't make $300k/year. We do itemize our deductions because our charitable donations and our mortgage interest exceeds $25k, and I believe we pay over $15k/year in federal taxes. So what happens when you file for the $7500 tax credit? It says it can't result in a refund...what does that mean, exactly? Does it mean that if you pay less than $7500/year in federal taxes, the tax credit can't result in extra money on top of the taxes you wouldn't have to pay?

BUT if we paid $15k in 2023 for taxes and we got a $7500 tax credit for the EV, that would result in us getting a check for $7500 when we do our taxes, right? Assuming we paid exactly the $15k in taxes via payroll deduction during the year?

If that's true, getting a new Chevy Bolt would be a pretty sweet deal, I think. Just $20k for a brand new EV?

[curious_george]

Ok, not to be dumb, but can anyone give me a rundown of how the tax credit works? There's a 2023 Chevy Bolt available on island. It's a base model, no extra stuff. We don't need heated seats/steering wheel in Hawaii. The quoted price online is $28k.

We don't make $300k/year. We do itemize our deductions because our charitable donations and our mortgage interest exceeds $25k, and I believe we pay over $15k/year in federal taxes. So what happens when you file for the $7500 tax credit? It says it can't result in a refund...what does that mean, exactly? Does it mean that if you pay less than $7500/year in federal taxes, the tax credit can't result in extra money on top of the taxes you wouldn't have to pay?

BUT if we paid $15k in 2023 for taxes and we got a $7500 tax credit for the EV, that would result in us getting a check for $7500 when we do our taxes, right? Assuming we paid exactly the $15k in taxes via payroll deduction during the year?

If that's true, getting a new Chevy Bolt would be a pretty sweet deal, I think. Just $20k for a brand new EV?

My understanding is if you paid 15k in payroll taxes, and owe 15k in taxes, then take the new EV tax credit, you will get $7500 back as a tax refund when you file your taxes for that taxable year.

I am not a tax professional though.

It is a great bargain, compared to other new vehicles, which is why so many Mustachians are now interested.

[englishteacheralex]

Honestly it seems like a really good bargain. Evidently the warranty is for 8 years/100k miles. I think we may go for it with this.

What am I missing? What's the catch?

[curious_george]

Honestly it seems like a really good bargain. Evidently the warranty is for 8 years/100k miles. I think we may go for it with this.

What am I missing? What's the catch?

I don't know. Frankly I'm asking myself the same question. What am I missing?

What are we missing?

This thing is cheaper than a new Toyota Corolla after the tax credit, and it's fully electric so no more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, belts...etc.

[GilesMM]

Honestly it seems like a really good bargain. Evidently the warranty is for 8 years/100k miles. I think we may go for it with this.

What am I missing? What's the catch?

I don't know. Frankly I'm asking myself the same question. What am I missing?

What are we missing?

This thing is cheaper than a new Toyota Corolla after the tax credit, and it's fully electric so no more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, belts...etc.

You are not missing it, per se, but this is a Chevy, not a Toyota, so expect poorer build quality, fit and finish, materials, and more problems down the line.  But it's cheap enough, you can sort of overlook all that perhaps.

[RWD]

Ok, not to be dumb, but can anyone give me a rundown of how the tax credit works? There's a 2023 Chevy Bolt available on island. It's a base model, no extra stuff. We don't need heated seats/steering wheel in Hawaii. The quoted price online is $28k.

We don't make $300k/year. We do itemize our deductions because our charitable donations and our mortgage interest exceeds $25k, and I believe we pay over $15k/year in federal taxes. So what happens when you file for the $7500 tax credit? It says it can't result in a refund...what does that mean, exactly? Does it mean that if you pay less than $7500/year in federal taxes, the tax credit can't result in extra money on top of the taxes you wouldn't have to pay?

BUT if we paid $15k in 2023 for taxes and we got a $7500 tax credit for the EV, that would result in us getting a check for $7500 when we do our taxes, right? Assuming we paid exactly the $15k in taxes via payroll deduction during the year?

If that's true, getting a new Chevy Bolt would be a pretty sweet deal, I think. Just $20k for a brand new EV?

My understanding is if you paid 15k in payroll taxes, and owe 15k in taxes, then take the new EV tax credit, you will get $7500 back as a tax refund when you file your taxes for that taxable year.

I am not a tax professional though.

It is a great bargain, compared to other new vehicles, which is why so many Mustachians are now interested.

Yes, this is basically how it works. We bought an EV in tax year 2021 and when we filed taxes our refund was $7.5k higher than it otherwise would have been. It's just a straight credit towards your federal tax liability. So as long as your liability is at least $7.5k you get the full benefit (regardless of how much you withheld). If your liability is less than $7.5k then you will just owe $0 in federal income taxes for the year (and if you withheld anything that will be refunded to you).

[EchoStache]

The second sale value is $4k lower because it sells without the credit in a private party sale, though.

Yeah, have to buy from a dealer to get the used EV tax credit.  The Bolt will still be a great deal here since ALL Chevy Bolts have either already had their batteries replaced under warranty with the newest, biggest battery, or will be eligible for it.  Won't be hard to get used Bolts well under $15k after incentives with full 8 year warranty.

[TomTX]

Note that for many people here there is an easy and beneficial (or at least neutral) way to increase federal income tax liability: Do a Roth conversion.

[curious_george]

Honestly it seems like a really good bargain. Evidently the warranty is for 8 years/100k miles. I think we may go for it with this.

What am I missing? What's the catch?

I don't know. Frankly I'm asking myself the same question. What am I missing?

What are we missing?

This thing is cheaper than a new Toyota Corolla after the tax credit, and it's fully electric so no more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, belts...etc.

You are not missing it, per se, but this is a Chevy, not a Toyota, so expect poorer build quality, fit and finish, materials, and more problems down the line.  But it's cheap enough, you can sort of overlook all that perhaps.

As someone who drove a Chevy for 10 years then a Toyota for 10 years this gives me chills.

For 10 years working on that Chevy was like having a part time job, where the Toyota only needs routine maintenance.

This really makes me not want to buy a Chevy again...

ETA: I do wonder though if it being electric would help it be more reliable.

[Paper Chaser]

Honestly it seems like a really good bargain. Evidently the warranty is for 8 years/100k miles. I think we may go for it with this.

What am I missing? What's the catch?

I don't know. Frankly I'm asking myself the same question. What am I missing?

What are we missing?

This thing is cheaper than a new Toyota Corolla after the tax credit, and it's fully electric so no more gas, oil changes, spark plugs, belts...etc.

You are not missing it, per se, but this is a Chevy, not a Toyota, so expect poorer build quality, fit and finish, materials, and more problems down the line.  But it's cheap enough, you can sort of overlook all that perhaps.

As someone who drove a Chevy for 10 years then a Toyota for 10 years this gives me chills.

For 10 years working on that Chevy was like having a part time job, where the Toyota only needs routine maintenance.

This really makes me not want to buy a Chevy again...

ETA: I do wonder though if it being electric would help it be more reliable.

I'd bet that the engineers and designers of the Bolt were probably in diapers or riding the bus to school when your last Chevy was engineered. Things can change over a period of decades. Heck, vehicles from the same company at the same time can have different quality and reliability. Trying to make comparison across decades seems wildly ineffective to me.
Make a purchase decision based on the merits and specifics of the items available rather than what happened a couple of decades ago. GM's plug-in vehicles (Volt and Bolt) have very good reputations for quality and longevity.

[englishteacheralex]

Our 2007 Prius battery just crapped the bed yesterday for the third time this year. We replaced a cell back in April 2022 for $900. That cell had a year warranty. It died in December, so the shop replaced it again for free. Just died yesterday.

I just finished calling the three Chevy dealerships that have Bolts in this state. Shipping a car inter-island from Hilo to Oahu is $480. Might really be worth it.

[ChpBstrd]

Our 2007 Prius battery just crapped the bed yesterday for the third time this year. We replaced a cell back in April 2022 for $900. That cell had a year warranty. It died in December, so the shop replaced it again for free. Just died yesterday.

I just finished calling the three Chevy dealerships that have Bolts in this state. Shipping a car inter-island from Hilo to Oahu is $480. Might really be worth it.

Are these aftermarket batteries? I've had similar luck with laptop batteries bought off of eBay.

[Just Joe]

But actually finding one to buy seems challenging. Living on an island means that we don't care about the range of the car. But neither does anyone else here (generally).

Is it true that the cost of maintenance is very low, since you don't have to change the oil/brakes?

I'm wondering if it's even possible to try to test drive one.

So go buy a Leaf instead. They come with a 150 mi and a 220 mi battery. Just don't fast charge it often as the aircooled battery has a fast charging problem that causes the car to slow the charge when the battery gets too hot. I've been driving Leafs in the southeast USA and the battery doesn't get hot under any use condition I can find except fast charging. To be clear - L1 (120V) and L2 (220V) are not a problem. It is L3 charging that is a problem.

The battery is very modular and can be disassembled to be repaired if that ever comes up. Also easy to simply bolt in a new (used) battery if you choose to go that route.

The 30K mile service was something like wiper blades, inspections, and a cabin filter I think. That was all there was to service. I would add to that replacement of the transmission oil and coolant replacement at some point b/c I over maintain my vehicles sometimes.

[grantmeaname]

Why a Leaf over a Bolt? It's more money for less car on an older platform...

[englishteacheralex]

There aren't any Leafs, either. I called all the Nissan dealerships and they just laughed at me. I am now entered into a lottery for the privilege of buying the one Chevy EUV coming in off the dock in Honolulu on Monday of next week.

[ChpBstrd]

"For some electric vehicle owners, recharging now more costly than filling up"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-car-2023-costs-gas-vehicles/

This dynamic calls into question whether EVs will ever achieve mass adoption. It appears a new electrical grid with new, low-cost energy sources is a prerequisite to EVs being economical. The people with high rates in New England mentioned in the article are swimming against the economic current.

[EchoStache]

^This uncertainty of not only current but future electricity prices is why I feel really good about the decision to go solar.  I'm essentially spending $21k(net after rebate) to prepay all my household and automotive energy needs for the next 30+ years.  The exception is gas heat which is currently pretty darn cheap but I'm hopeful to convert to high efficiency heat pump.

Kinda sucks for those paying $0.44/kWh....thats just nuts.  I think a 50-60 mpg PHEV is best case scenario for them unless solar and net metering.

[RWD]

Very few people are paying $0.44/kWh to drive their EVs. Hawaii is pretty much the only place in the US. Even at a DC fast charger (Electrify America) you only pay $0.36/kWh with a membership.

I think too much emphasis is put on the cost of refueling/recharging vehicles. The total cost of ownership of a vehicle is heavily dominated by depreciation and financing/opportunity cost. And of course there are other ongoing costs (maintenance/repair, insurance, registration/taxes) as well. I know I'm an anomaly, but last year only 1% of our vehicle ownership costs were attributed to fuel/charging.

[GilesMM]

Such price swings are part of the global politics of oil and gas prices.  The high natural gas prices in New England are partly due to Russia (New England competes on the global market for LNG to fuel their electric plants).  Other global politics occasionally hits oil prices and we see gasoline costs spike or crash.  Gas was $5/gal nationally in June and is under $3.50 today.  So in June, the recommendation would have been to ditch your ICE and get an EV, based on fuel pricing alone.


We drive ICE cars and spent about 1/3 of our transportation budget on fuel last year (the rest was insurance, tires, brakes and depreciation).  We'll go EV once these wear out but that will be quite a few more years (5-10).  By then Toyota/Lexus should have some decent EV models which will have been on the market and depreciated for a few years.  A used well-built EV (not a Bolt/Leaf/Ioniq econobox and not a horrible Tesla) for around $20k would be our target.

[RWD]

By then Toyota/Lexus should have some decent EV models which will have been on the market and depreciated for a few years.

Why would anyone want an EV from the company that has been working the hardest to prevent them from becoming a thing? Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Oh yeah, and the wheels literally fall off on their current EV: 1, 2.

Toyota has been dragged kicking and screaming into the EV era and as a result they are extremely far behind compared to the competition. What Hyundai/Kia are already building today is significantly more advanced than what Toyota was planning for their next generation of EVs.

[VanillaGorilla]

Very few people are paying $0.44/kWh to drive their EVs. Hawaii is pretty much the only place in the US. Even at a DC fast charger (Electrify America) you only pay $0.36/kWh with a membership.

I think too much emphasis is put on the cost of refueling/recharging vehicles. The total cost of ownership of a vehicle is heavily dominated by depreciation and financing/opportunity cost. And of course there are other ongoing costs (maintenance/repair, insurance, registration/taxes) as well. I know I'm an anomaly, but last year only 1% of our vehicle ownership costs were attributed to fuel/charging.

That's only true if you drive comparatively little with comparatively new cars. Last year my vehicular costs were dominated by fuel despite driving an efficient hybrid, thanks to several massive post-pandemic roadtrips.

My rule of thumb for ICE is that over the lifetime of the vehicle, fuel costs are roughly as much as the purchase price - 200,000 miles at 25 mpg and $4/gal is $32,000 on fuel alone, comparable to the MSRP of a Camry or Accord or Impreza.

In the case of my wife's car the above is pretty accurate, though it's a Ford so it was extremely cheap to buy and will never make it much past 100,000 miles. And it gets atrocious fuel economy for being miniscule.

[Arbitrage]

I think too much emphasis is put on the cost of refueling/recharging vehicles.

Yes, that's a key part of what helps perpetuate the car-centric life.  In most people's minds, everything else is just an unavoidable, fixed expense.  Only gas (or the equivalent) is a variable, so focusing their entire lives around the automobile doesn't really cost them that much.

[ChpBstrd]

Very few people are paying $0.44/kWh to drive their EVs. Hawaii is pretty much the only place in the US. Even at a DC fast charger (Electrify America) you only pay $0.36/kWh with a membership.

I think too much emphasis is put on the cost of refueling/recharging vehicles. The total cost of ownership of a vehicle is heavily dominated by depreciation and financing/opportunity cost. And of course there are other ongoing costs (maintenance/repair, insurance, registration/taxes) as well. I know I'm an anomaly, but last year only 1% of our vehicle ownership costs were attributed to fuel/charging.

I agree that refueling/charging represent a small percentage of the costs of using cars. However, for a BEV to be economically competitive with oil burners. BEVs must quickly earn back their higher upfront price with lower variable costs. Reduced maintenance costs help, but that is offset by higher insurance premiums (based on the higher replacement cost of the vehicle).

Will people buy BEVs because they care about the environment? I think not. 90% of the cars on the road today could be replaced by small and efficient sedans and hatchbacks, cutting their environmental impact in half, and yet people decide not to do so. We can only conclude most people don't care about the environment.

[GuitarStv]

We can only conclude most people don't care about the environment.

It's a hierarchy of needs.

Air
Water
Food
Shelter
Sex
Comfort
...
Environmental concerns


Unfortunately, while environmental concern will eventually cause significant damage to the top four this won't happen for an extended period of time.  So the only way that you'll ever get most people to care about the environment is to incentivize it enough to raise it's place in the hierarchy.  We need to make it uncomfortable to do things that damage the environment - only then will people care.

[Paper Chaser]

By then Toyota/Lexus should have some decent EV models which will have been on the market and depreciated for a few years.

Why would anyone want an EV from the company that has been working the hardest to prevent them from becoming a thing? Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Oh yeah, and the wheels literally fall off on their current EV: 1, 2.

Toyota has been dragged kicking and screaming into the EV era and as a result they are extremely far behind compared to the competition. What Hyundai/Kia are already building today is significantly more advanced than what Toyota was planning for their next generation of EVs.

Also, Toyota has become a big proponent of corporate partnerships lately, with the 86 being mostly Subaru, and the Supra being mostly BMW. Just because it has a Toyota badge doesn't mean you're getting Toyota design, engineering and quality.

Their brand new EV platform (known as e-TGNA) which is expected to be used for the rest of the decade was jointly developed with Subaru.

And they have another existing EV partnership with BYD:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-produce-byd-battery-electric-car-china-2022-10-24/

Honda has similar partnership plans to use GM's EV architecture too:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39636625/honda-gm-affordable-ev-plans/



This isn't 2010 anymore, where we're just advancing and optimizing the same ICE systems that we've been using for 100 years (which is what Toyota excelled at). EV's are expensive to develop and scale. The Japanese manufacturers in general have been delaying investment into BEVs, and are now relying on partners that have done that expensive development work. Companies like GM, Hyundai/Kia, Ford, Tesla, VW and a couple of Chinese companies are the ones that are doing the good engineering and development work for EVs, and they're going to supply a lot of that to other companies.
Judging a vehicle by the badge on the outside, or based on something that happened 20+ years ago rather than the actual qualities and engineering of the vehicle in question is going to lead to disappointment and potentially missing out on better products.