[Discussion] What is Mustachianism?

[EnjoyIt]

Lets have a discussion about what Mustachianism is to us.  I see so many different viewpoints on the forum and I think this can lend to a pretty good discussion.

My opinion:
I believe Mustachianism is about finding happiness in one's life that is not based on the purchase of commodities. It is about finding what one values in life and making the most of it.  It is about valuing ones time and money and making the most use to be able to increase one's happiness.  I realize in the process of being frugal with a decrease in consumption there is a environmental backbone to Mustachianism as well as intended by MMM.

I do not believe mustachiansism is being frugal just for the sake of being frugal.  This is not Early Retirement Extreme where we drop our spending to the minimumThis is not just about going as frugal as possible to the point of getting our ketchup and paper towels for free from McDonalds. Eating Ramen noodles, rice and beans, canned meat, etc every day to save a few bucks.  This is not happiness, that is being cheap and actually I think antimustachian because it is also unhealthy and decreases life long happiness. 

I also don't think this is just about early retirement but more about reaching a financial state where we can better choose what to do with our time.  Clearly for many early retirees they still make some kind of an income and this is not to start an argument with the internet retirement police.  These early retirees choose to do something they enjoy and also get paid for it as opposed to being forced to sit in a cubicle for 40 hours a week. 

This brings me to a point on spending, and how much each one of us spends on the things that make them happy.  We all agree that stuff does not buy happiness but certain spending can make life better.  A good example was the thread started about $500 bed sheets.  Sure that is some extravagant bed sheets, but what if the person buying those sheets makes $250k+ a year, saving 75% of their after tax income and just wants a comfortable bed to sleep in?  Is $500 too much now or does that seam reasonable? (I have no clue how much that poster makes or saves.) Personally I could not imagine paying that much for sheets (low value to me,) but I could and have payed more than that for a mattress and honestly believe it was a good purchase as it has increased my happiness due to better sleep (high value to me.)  Isn't the point of having and building wealth to use that wealth on value?

Another example is spending a few hundred and a brew kit instead of just not buying beer. Maybe dropping $2k on a bike, or $1k on warm ski gear. All these extravagant expenses may have a lot of value for the person buying them.

I started this thread not to talk about bed sheets, again. I would rather discuss the general concepts of mustachianism and what it means to us individually.  Please share your thought if you are so inclined.

EDIT: I edited the top removing reference to ERE. I obviously have no idea what that movement is all about and wanted to remove it from the discussion.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

For me it's about not buying into all the capitalist fairy tales by deliberately examining what we've been told since birth about what constitutes 'success'. And living a simpler lifestyle that focuses on experiences and not stuff. Everyone has a different take on what that means for them - the bedsheets are a comfort experience, after all. I guess the moral of mustachianism for me is that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it the right way or the only way.

[Zikoris]

From the way you're bashing ERE people, it looks like you haven't yet internalized the basic message that spending and happiness are not connected, which unfortunately is actually what Mustachianism is about (in addition to environmentalism). If you really "got it", when you looked at people who spend a fraction of what you do, your reaction wouldn't be "Look at those cheap people, they must live miserable lives, eat crap, and be setting themselves up for a lifetime of health problems and suffering, because my imagination is too limited to even conceive that a person might be living well without spending buckets of money", it would be "Cool, those people have clearly figured out stuff I haven't, maybe I can learn from them!".

I don't think income or savings rate is generally relevant to whether buying a particular thing is stupid or not, unless it's a situation where someone's thinking of going into debt to buy it, or causing themselves other financial hardship. I basically don't think objects become more or less stupid depending who buys them, they're just kind of stupid or not-stupid in their own regard.

To me, Mustachianism is about decoupling the spending=happiness idea, reducing environmental impact, getting off my butt and doing stuff myself rather than being a lazy complainypants, putting some effort into building ties and communities to multiply the impact of these ideas, and lifehacking the shit out of everything to make it all happen effortlessly and automatically in the background while I mostly focus my daily efforts on having fun.

[jpdx]

What is the one-sentence version of Mustachianism?

[matchewed]

See there is an inherent disconnect when individuals start confusing the optimization portion as excluding happiness. As if dump everything except that which makes you happy, that you may spend as profligately as you like. It forgets that a 2k bike or 500 bike can get you the same utility and happiness.

Disconnect your spending from your happiness is more the point.

[EnjoyIt]

From the way you're bashing ERE people, it looks like you haven't yet internalized the basic message that spending and happiness are not connected, which unfortunately is actually what Mustachianism is about (in addition to environmentalism). If you really "got it", when you looked at people who spend a fraction of what you do, your reaction wouldn't be "Look at those cheap people, they must live miserable lives, eat crap, and be setting themselves up for a lifetime of health problems and suffering, because my imagination is too limited to even conceive that a person might be living well without spending buckets of money", it would be "Cool, those people have clearly figured out stuff I haven't, maybe I can learn from them!".

I don't think income or savings rate is generally relevant to whether buying a particular thing is stupid or not, unless it's a situation where someone's thinking of going into debt to buy it, or causing themselves other financial hardship. I basically don't think objects become more or less stupid depending who buys them, they're just kind of stupid or not-stupid in their own regard.

To me, Mustachianism is about decoupling the spending=happiness idea, reducing environmental impact, getting off my butt and doing stuff myself rather than being a lazy complainypants, putting some effort into building ties and communities to multiply the impact of these ideas, and lifehacking the shit out of everything to make it all happen effortlessly and automatically in the background while I mostly focus my daily efforts on having fun.

Thank you so much for your comment.  I may have miswritten what my intention was regarding ERE style living in that living on just Ramen noodles, mac and cheese, etc just because it is cheap is unhealthy full of processed junk as opposed to what you get from fresh meats and veggies.  When I was poor, I lived on those things because I did not have an alternative. I remember many a night eating boxed mac and cheese with powdered milk and water.  I was able to eat for a week for well under $10 because I had no choice and hope to never have to go to that again.  I also think going to your local fast food place to stock up on condiments is not happiness.  It is just downright being cheap.

I agree that spending and happiness are not connected, but one must spend some money to have the basic necessities of life.  Healthy food costs money.  You don't have to spend a fortune on it, but you do have to either farm it, or buy it.  One needs shelter as well as clothing.  One also benefits from transportation either private or public depending on what their neighborhood is like. So now when does spending more money buy some happiness and is it worth spending on? For example, it might be worthwhile spending money once a month on a baby sitter so that mom and dad can have date night.  Dates nights have been shown to strengthen relationships and keep a marriage together. Another example; I will not go on my roof to re-calk the fireplace and vents.  I can and have done it in the past, but to be honest with you I do not want to take the risk of falling and now willing to hire someone who is license and bonded to take that risk on my behalf.  Does this make me a whinny complainypants?  Maybe, but at least I am a whinny complainypants that isn't risking a head injury or a broken hip that will ruin the rest of my life. Lastly, we talk about experiences as being a place worth spending money and this is where we choose to spend. Do you spend money to enter a park for hiking, what if it is cold, don't you spend a little money to make sure you are well insulated to enjoy that hike?  Decent hiking shoes are pretty important also.   You don't have to spend thousands on gear, but having something decent that keeps you warm and your feet dry probably enhances your experience.  So no, you don't have to spend money to be happy, but some spending of money does help.  So, I do not believe it is 100% decoupled.

I do love your last paragraph. because you describe what it means to you. Thank you for that.

[maizefolk]

do not believe mustachiansism is being frugal just for the sake of being frugal.  This is not Early Retirement Extreme where we drop our spending to the minimum, getting our ketchup and paper towels for free from McDonalds. Eating Ramen noodles, rice and beans, canned meat, etc every day to save a few bucks.  This is not happiness, that is being cheap and actually I think antimustachian because it is also unhealthy and decreases life long happiness.

From what I've seen the ERE folks actually seem rather happy as a group (and much happier than some of the regular posters I see on bogleheads, although I certainly see plenty of happy posters on that forum as well).  I myself haven't found a way to decrease my spending quite to their levels without impacting my own happiness, but I don't think that reflects any sort of absolute limit.

Also, using rice and beans as the staples of your day to day meals is actually a rather healthy place to start constructing a diet from (although important to make sure you're also getting enough vegetables, especially in winter when this won't come as naturally).

[Zikoris]

Thank you so much for your comment.  I may have miswritten what my intention was regarding ERE style living in that living on just Ramen noodles, mac and cheese, etc just because it is cheap is unhealthy full of processed junk as opposed to what you get from fresh meats and veggies.  When I was poor, I lived on those things because I did not have an alternative. I remember many a night eating boxed mac and cheese with powdered milk and water.  I was able to eat for a week for well under $10 because I had no choice and hope to never have to go to that again.  I also think going to your local fast food place to stock up on condiments is not happiness.  It is just downright being cheap.

Okay, so it sounds like you were actually eating much worse food than ERE suggests, and paying double the price. For what people who do ERE actually eat, here are a couple of sample recipes that will feed you for a week for cheap, reasonably healthy, and a time commitment of about 30 minutes for the entire week: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/cooking-for-6-days-in-30-minutes-for-less-than-4.html And here's a refresher on the ERE grocery shopping system overall: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/day-3-grocery-shopping.html

ERE is generally more associated with lentil and vegetable stew than anything else, which would be a bit of a stretch to call unhealthy. I have literally never, not once, seen anyone advocating ERE suggest eating things like KD or ramen at all - those things are seen as overpriced garbage, which should be replaced immediately with nutritious base ingredients that are sold in sacks (lentils, rice, beans, etc).

[fell-like-rain]

From my perspective, MMM is about financial independence, and ERE is about extending that idea of independence further. MMM is a family going from 2 SUVs  to having one sedan. ERE asks, do I need a car? Can I construct my life in such a way that I can walk/bike everywhere? Thinking about potential detriments but also the upsides- better health, safe from oil shocks, work less due to less spending, greater connection to neighbors and community, valuable skills (bike repair), etc. Growing your own food would be part of that, because it’s not only about saving costs but about being independent of the industrial food system, eating healthier, being neighborly, developing skills (you can sense a theme here). Eating ramen and ketchup packets doesn’t fit into that paradigm, because instead of constructing a food system for yourself, you’re still dependent on big agro, just in a cheaper way.

So when you see the annual spending numbers for some ERE folks  and think “that’s way too low, they must be denying themselves so many things,” remember that you’re only looking at one piece of the puzzle- much of their wants and needs are being filled in ways that can’t be measured in a budget line item.

[Zikoris]

From my perspective, MMM is about financial independence, and ERE is about extending that idea of independence further. MMM is a family going from 2 SUVs  to having one sedan. ERE asks, do I need a car? Can I construct my life in such a way that I can walk/bike everywhere? Thinking about potential detriments but also the upsides- better health, safe from oil shocks, work less due to less spending, greater connection to neighbors and community, valuable skills (bike repair), etc. Growing your own food would be part of that, because it’s not only about saving costs but about being independent of the industrial food system, eating healthier, being neighborly, developing skills (you can sense a theme here). Eating ramen and ketchup packets doesn’t fit into that paradigm, because instead of constructing a food system for yourself, you’re still dependent on big agro, just in a cheaper way.

So when you see the annual spending numbers for some ERE folks  and think “that’s way too low, they must be denying themselves so many things,” remember that you’re only looking at one piece of the puzzle- much of their wants and needs are being filled in ways that can’t be measured in a budget line item.

Damn, that's good. I've been struggling with how to really put the difference down into words for quite awhile. You really nailed it.

[SomedayStache]

I love simple and wanted to answer this question.

However I need more time to mull because currently everything I have come up with sounds like some corporate BS mission statement filled with too many syllables.

Words that come to mind include:
Redefining success
Community
Aligning life energy
Time
Efficiency
Contentment

What is the one-sentence version of Mustachianism?

[EnjoyIt]

For me it's about not buying into all the capitalist fairy tales by deliberately examining what we've been told since birth about what constitutes 'success'. And living a simpler lifestyle that focuses on experiences and not stuff. Everyone has a different take on what that means for them - the bedsheets are a comfort experience, after all. I guess the moral of mustachianism for me is that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it the right way or the only way.

Same with me @AnnaGrowsAMustache, my parents believe that we should be upgrading houses every few years until we live in a McMansion in a nice gated community.  It took many a conversations that this is not how we view success.  They say they get it, but I think they are just placating us.

From what I've seen the ERE folks actually seem rather happy as a group (and much happier than some of the regular posters I see on bogleheads, although I certainly see plenty of happy posters on that forum as well).  I myself haven't found a way to decrease my spending quite to their levels without impacting my own happiness, but I don't think that reflects any sort of absolute limit.

@maizeman,
Just like you can't judge how much money someone has by how much they spend, you can't really judge how happy one is by the comments they post.  If you look at Facebook you would think almost everyone has the best most successful life.  Clearly not true. 

As for bogleheads, I think the backbone of bogleheads is very similar to MMM, but there are many many posters with very high incomes who have no problem spending $5k on a watch or $100k on car.  I don't know if they are happy or not, but for many there, the goal isn't to retire really early but to have financial security.  Many there seam to be a much more paranoid bunch.  For me, I started at bogleheads but eventually found MMM as it seams to be more inline with my thinking.

Okay, so it sounds like you were actually eating much worse food than ERE suggests, and paying double the price. For what people who do ERE actually eat, here are a couple of sample recipes that will feed you for a week for cheap, reasonably healthy, and a time commitment of about 30 minutes for the entire week: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/cooking-for-6-days-in-30-minutes-for-less-than-4.html And here's a refresher on the ERE grocery shopping system overall: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/day-3-grocery-shopping.html

ERE is generally more associated with lentil and vegetable stew than anything else, which would be a bit of a stretch to call unhealthy. I have literally never, not once, seen anyone advocating ERE suggest eating things like KD or ramen at all - those things are seen as overpriced garbage, which should be replaced immediately with nutritious base ingredients that are sold in sacks (lentils, rice, beans, etc).

@Zikoris , you have pointed out my ignorance on ERE.  Without reading I just assumed to live on $7k a year you must really remove everything other than the barest of essentials. I crossed out that part of my OP and made an emendment. Thanks for pointing it out to me.  Yes, indeed I was single, in debt, no income and just trying to survive while getting an education and still trying to enjoy life.  To do so I figured I had to cut out luxuries like healthy food. Back then there really was no Internet to research other options. I just went to the store and looked for cheap things to put in my belly.  Maybe not the best route but at least I was fed and got a degree that now provides a good income. Although I wasn't miserable, I would not choose to go that route again and probably because of that spend a bit more than necessary on food.  Our budget isn't atrocious, but we may overspend a little on some fruits and veggies that are higher priced because they are not in season and imported.  Also, thanks for sharing those links. I am very curious and will give em a read tonight in bed.

From my perspective, MMM is about financial independence, and ERE is about extending that idea of independence further. MMM is a family going from 2 SUVs  to having one sedan. ERE asks, do I need a car? Can I construct my life in such a way that I can walk/bike everywhere? Thinking about potential detriments but also the upsides- better health, safe from oil shocks, work less due to less spending, greater connection to neighbors and community, valuable skills (bike repair), etc. Growing your own food would be part of that, because it’s not only about saving costs but about being independent of the industrial food system, eating healthier, being neighborly, developing skills (you can sense a theme here). Eating ramen and ketchup packets doesn’t fit into that paradigm, because instead of constructing a food system for yourself, you’re still dependent on big agro, just in a cheaper way.

So when you see the annual spending numbers for some ERE folks  and think “that’s way too low, they must be denying themselves so many things,” remember that you’re only looking at one piece of the puzzle- much of their wants and needs are being filled in ways that can’t be measured in a budget line item.

I admit, I am clueless about the ERE movement and prefer to remove them from this conversation as bashing or comparing to them was not my intention.  With regards to your comment above, MMM I believe claimed that his blog is geared more towards the higher income crowd. Maybe $80k+/year family income.  Maybe more.  Not that a family making less isn't included or can't benefit.  It just becomes a bit more difficult as more choices need to be made on value if a family is looking to retire within 10 years. 




Anyways, nice discussion.  I am hoping more opinions could chime in.

[Cassie]

The lower the income the longer it will take a family to retire but it doesn’t mean they won’t benefit from the MM forum. Actually many things mentioned on the forum are things we did in the 80’s while raising kids because we needed to in order to stay out of debt and save money retirement.  Our friends did the same and no one we hung out with overspent.

[Prairie Stash]

@Zikoris you summed this up nicely. I'll try to add:

Mustachianism is about increasing your lifetime happiness score. When we meet up in the afterlife, we all get to compare how happy we were.

As long as those sheets make you happier then me, then you win. If my life was happier then yours, then I win. We all get to play this game exactly once, the winners are the people who make the best of it. Personally, I'm betting that by not buying really expensive sheets I'll achieve a higher happiness score.

*I understand people have rough lives, the happiness score is a very complicated formula that accounts for 10,000 inputs and is divided by the totality of all your innate gifts.

It use to be shortened as Carpe Diem, now its known as YOLO :(

[Brother Esau]

The lower the income the longer it will take a family to retire but it doesn’t mean they won’t benefit from the MM forum. Actually many things mentioned on the forum are things we did in the 80’s while raising kids because we needed to in order to stay out of debt and save money retirement.  Our friends did the same and no one we hung out with overspent.

I'm not going to retire "early" by the current standards in society but I will be retiring earlier than I ever imagined possible and way more comfortably with total peace of mind. Thank you fellow MMM peeps!

[RedmondStash]

As long as those sheets make you happier then me, then you win. If my life was happier then yours, then I win.

No offense, but I think you're missing the point of Mustachianism. It's not competitive; it is instead explicitly non-competitive. It's not about out-happying the Joneses any more than it is about out-spending the Joneses. It's about optimizing your own personal happiness, irrespective of other people. Everyone can win.

To me, Mustachianism is about examining my assumptions about what ought to make me happy, discarding the things that I'd assumed make me happy but don't, and adding in things that I hadn't realized make me happy but do. It's about realizing that not all stuff makes you happy, although some stuff can make you happier and healthier, like healthful food and fulfilling work (paid or unpaid). It's about waking up from a consumerist dream and facing the reality of cause-and-effect: Did eating that Hershey bar really make you happy? Did fostering that puppy? Did buying that expensive car? Did spending time with your friends? And then accepting the actual answers and course-correcting based on them.

Typically, along the way, most folks realize that stuff acquired with debt leads to more unhappiness, stress, and a lot of extra junk, and that financial freedom offers a peek at what looks like optimized happiness. This leads to a new priority of saving as much money as possible while not sacrificing current genuine happiness -- balancing the needs of Future You with those of Current You. Thus, frugality is more a consequence of a Mustachian outlook than its basis. I don't know much about the ERE movement, but I can understand the excitement of figuring out how to game the system, break the rules everyone else thinks they need to live by, and thrive. It's like winning a video game by optimizing your gameplay.

For some people, another important piece is about how to be responsible stewards of the planet. I like that idea, but I've got some other problems to solve before I can focus on that.

[Vertical Mode]

If I had to try to distill it into one sentence: Optimizing one's life to deliver maximum happiness and/or fulfillment by identifying what is important to them; finding ways to pursue that efficiently.

It isn't necessarily about trimming spending to the bone in order to retire early, although there are certainly some here for whom this is the end and the means. It is about aligning actions (and spending) with our priorities and goals in order to live our best lives, whatever that means to each of us.

I know we weren't supposed to mention ERE, but I really liked fell-like-rain's post, and wanted to add that I do think MMM and ERE are conceptually very similar. I thought this discussion of the Wheaton scale (as applied to personal finance) was an interesting compare/contrast about some of the different mindsets people bring with them to personal finance/the pursuit of FI:

https://wiki.earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ERE_Wheaton_Levels

(I was also curious where you all felt that MMM would be categorized by this rubric? I was sort of thinking 5, but the MMM philosophy kind of touches on many of these different mindsets at times.)

Food for thought as we attempt to define what Mustachianism is, and isn't.

[maizefolk]

Vertical Mode, I was also going to bring up the Wheaton levels if we continued talking about ERE, thanks for posting. I agree with you that most of the discussion here focuses on different levels up to 5 (Optimization).

I know at least a few posters on this forum who are at level 6 where you're now challenging assumptions about what is and isn't necessary, but I think they don't actually feel as welcome here, because you're sometimes called out for talking about things like van-dwelling or other lifestyles which are significantly outside of the mainstream. This makes some sense, since to me, the MMM blog seems to be focused more on how you can still have something that still looks a lot like a conventional middle class lifestyle, while saving a lot of money, increasing your happiness, and ultimately no longer needing to work at all by getting rid of the stuff and activities people spend a lot of money on that doesn't really increase their happiness.

[singpolyma]

Ride a bike instead of driving a car, shop at a reasonable grocery store to cut your grocery spending, etc

Basically: don't spend more when less can get you exactly the same thing. Wasting money is laziness, so get off your ass. This is Mustachianism.

[DreamFIRE]

Driving a car and still having an 80% savings rate.   Actually, I don't use the term, so define it however you see fit.

[DreamFIRE]

These early retirees choose to do something they enjoy and also get paid for it as opposed to being forced to sit in a cubicle for 40 hours a week.

I see the cubicle comment a lot, but I've never worked in a cubicle at any point in my career and now have my own office, and no one even forces me to sit in there.  lol

[Bateaux]

For me it's Stealth Wealth.   It's having a six figure income and seven figure savings, without flash.  It's driving my beater Honda and pedaling my eighteen year old Cannondale bike.  Could I buy a Tesla model X? Yep.  Could I get the latest carbon nanotube bike on the market?  Yep.  Just ain't how I roll.

[jpdx]

Thank you verticalmode and others who have defined mustacianism in one sentence. I think this is a useful exercise because it forces you to find the true essence of this endeavor. It's also useful to have your one sentence in case you need to quickly explain this to someone, like at a party. I'd love to hear some other one-sentence descriptions, post em if you have em.

[Zikoris]

Thank you verticalmode and others who have defined mustacianism in one sentence. I think this is a useful exercise because it forces you to find the true essence of this endeavor. It's also useful to have your one sentence in case you need to quickly explain this to someone, like at a party. I'd love to hear some other one-sentence descriptions, post em if you have em.

My party-explanation goes something like this: "You cut all the bullshit spending, get your savings rate up over 60%, and invest it. Then 10-15 years later you have enough money to never work again." It doesn't get into philosophy at all, but generally that's a pretty deep topic to get into with a stranger at a party (or elsewhere).

[Vertical Mode]

Thank you verticalmode and others who have defined mustacianism in one sentence. I think this is a useful exercise because it forces you to find the true essence of this endeavor. It's also useful to have your one sentence in case you need to quickly explain this to someone, like at a party. I'd love to hear some other one-sentence descriptions, post em if you have em.

My party-explanation goes something like this: "You cut all the bullshit spending, get your savings rate up over 60%, and invest it. Then 10-15 years later you have enough money to never work again." It doesn't get into philosophy at all, but generally that's a pretty deep topic to get into with a stranger at a party (or elsewhere).

True, may not be suitable for a deep dive topic with casual partygoers, especially in the formal way that I worded the above. You could also present it as: "I'm trying out a lifestyle design experiment focused on wholesome activities, which in the process is supposed to help simplify things and also help your finances". Or something like that. That gives you a convenient out to talk about the philosophical side of it without bringing up money, if you prefer. Money can be kind of a third rail conversation topic because our attitudes and feelings about it tend to be pretty ingrained, so having another avenue of discussion tucked in your back pocket can be clutch.

[Zikoris]

Thank you verticalmode and others who have defined mustacianism in one sentence. I think this is a useful exercise because it forces you to find the true essence of this endeavor. It's also useful to have your one sentence in case you need to quickly explain this to someone, like at a party. I'd love to hear some other one-sentence descriptions, post em if you have em.

My party-explanation goes something like this: "You cut all the bullshit spending, get your savings rate up over 60%, and invest it. Then 10-15 years later you have enough money to never work again." It doesn't get into philosophy at all, but generally that's a pretty deep topic to get into with a stranger at a party (or elsewhere).

True, may not be suitable for a deep dive topic with casual partygoers, especially in the formal way that I worded the above. You could also present it as: "I'm trying out a lifestyle design experiment focused on wholesome activities, which in the process is supposed to help simplify things and also help your finances". Or something like that. That gives you a convenient out to talk about the philosophical side of it without bringing up money, if you prefer. Money can be kind of a third rail conversation topic because our attitudes and feelings about it tend to be pretty ingrained, so having another avenue of discussion tucked in your back pocket can be clutch.

That's pretty good. I find that the unfortunate problem of trying to describe Mustachianism without talking about money is that I can come across a little... pyramid-scheme-sounding? Like "Oh shit, now this guy is going to invite me to an Scamway convention". My partner finds the same is true of being a freelancer - if he talks about home-based self-employment without specifically mentioning what he does (he's an editor), it sounds remarkably similar to what an MLM person would say. Lol!

[maizefolk]

Okay, so dumb question: are you folks literally bringing up MMM/FIRE at parties or is that a language short cut for how to describe it in some other type of conversation?

If I did have to describe it in a single sentence: "I realized a while ago that spending more money isn't making me any happier, so now I just save that excess money until I have enough that I won't need to work if I don't want to."

[Vertical Mode]

Okay, so dumb question: are you folks literally bringing up MMM/FIRE at parties or is that a language short cut for how to describe it in some other type of conversation?

If I did have to describe it in a single sentence: "I realized a while ago that spending more money isn't making me any happier, so now I just save that excess money until I have enough that I won't need to work if I don't want to."

Fair question. No, just an example situation where one might have to sum it up real quick for someone not already "in the know" about FIRE/MMM. I deliberately steer clear of finance topics these days unless someone asks for my thoughts, because most of the people in my real life don't want to talk about it and/or don't have an academic interest in PF.

[Zikoris]

Okay, so dumb question: are you folks literally bringing up MMM/FIRE at parties or is that a language short cut for how to describe it in some other type of conversation?

If I did have to describe it in a single sentence: "I realized a while ago that spending more money isn't making me any happier, so now I just save that excess money until I have enough that I won't need to work if I don't want to."

I don't generally bring it up because it's not that exciting, but people sometimes recognize me from the different articles and television stuff I've been involved with, so they'll bring it up. I also take pity on the clueless spouses and friends who get dragged along to MMM/FIRE events and have no idea what's going on around them, and run them through the basics.

Also, it can come up in the context of career and goal discussions, which is really common in my circles.

[maizefolk]

Thanks folks!

[Dances With Fire]

For me it's about not buying into all the capitalist fairy tales by deliberately examining what we've been told since birth about what constitutes 'success'. And living a simpler lifestyle that focuses on experiences and not stuff. Everyone has a different take on what that means for them - the bedsheets are a comfort experience, after all. I guess the moral of mustachianism for me is that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it the right way or the only way.

^^^ This! Consumerism is a false path to " happiness" and "success." Since childhood we are told and shown how bigger is always better and how shiny new "things" will make us happy and respected. Competition is considered normal in our society but at what cost? At the end of the day, experiences and relationships are truly what matters most...

[BookLoverL]

I mean, ERE isn't about frugality for the sake of frugality either. ;) (I know, I know, you don't want to focus on ERE. But it's so awesome I might have to anyway. ;) )

Mustachianism, to me, is about re-examining what makes you happy, realising it usually isn't spending on stuff that you barely use, and therefore becoming less dependent on people paying you money in return for wasting your life away on pointless bullshit, so you can therefore do something you actually want to do in your life instead. "Maybe if we have a smaller house we will still actually be happy, and hey, we'll have less to clean! That second-hand car is actually pretty reliable, so we can get rid of this expensive new one, and also we'll stop driving to the store that we could walk or bike to easily. I'm spending an awful lot buying these things that I just shoved in a cupboard to forget about - did I really need to do that? I wonder if a holiday to that cheaper, closer place could be just as fun as flying to the other side of the world?"

Mustachianism only goes so far, though. Generally the typical Mustachian lifestyle still vaguely resembles a middle-class lifestyle, and while there is some encouragement to look at the impact your lifestyle has on the world, that aspect really isn't all that focused on.

ERE takes it further by being willing to think outside the box: "What if we don't actually need to live in a single normal-sized house with no other families living in it? Could we get rid of our car altogether? Can I do this entire DIY project myself, and spend less than usual on the materials too? Can I choose my hobbies deliberately so that they actually save me money over time? If I make friends with my neighbours can I get them to lend me their lawnmower instead of buying my own?" It also encourages a thoughtful, connected lifestyle, where the things you spend time doing are more in line with your goals for your life. Really, though, it still has the same underlying principles as Mustachianism; it's just willing to take them further. The base philosophy is not that different. Actually, I often wonder why so many people who find Mustachianism seem to stop at a certain point and resist so strongly the further examination of what makes them happy.

As for what I'd say to someone at a party, maybe I'd try, "The thing that makes me happiest is more free time, and I don't care about buying things that much, so I'm saving my money so I won't have to work as much in the future."

[undercover]

Freedom and efficiency with a focus on reducing overall consumption. That's pretty much it.

[Threshkin]

For me it is "Spending money with your eyes open."

I preach that the worst sin in personal financial management is to get to the end of the week (month, day, whatever) and say "Where did all my money go?"

Spend your money on what is important to you. If FIRE is your goal save/invest your money.  If you are not in a hurry to FIRE, spend it on whatever is important to you. 

Bottom line: Make sure your money is going where you want it to and that it is not just slipping through your fingers.

[jpdx]

To me mustachianism means instead of spending money buying stuff, spend money buying time.

In other words, fewer cars and flat screen TVs now, so you can have the freedom to work less in the future.

[EnjoyIt]

Are these mustachian?

Do I spend the next 3 hours removing all the weeds in my yard or, do I spend an extra hour overtime at work to hire someone to de-weed my yard, and extra 30 minutes to relax and then 1.5 hours with my kids reading to them and playing games.  Both options take up 3 hours of my time.

I think this is a Mustachian contradiction because we should strive to do things for ourselves, but we also value our time with our family and the happiness those experiences bring. 

renting a cabin near a ski resort with your friends from around the US for a week?

Sure renting a cabin and skiing is an expensive hobby/vacation. But, we as mustachians value experiences and interactions with friends.  Living in a Cabin for a week, skiing together, cooking, eating and drinking together, and playing games together provides life remembering experiences you will cherish forever.  But those experiences are expensive.

hiring someone to fix something on your sloped roof as opposed to doing it yourself.

Sure we can read about it and accomplish it ourselves, but we take some risk climbing up there.  On the one hand we have the satisfaction of taking on a job and accomplishing it.  On the other you risk falling, hitting your hear or breaking a hip.  Does badassity outweigh risk reduction so that you have a lower chance of enjoying your life due to severe injury and chronic illness.

These are some of the things I question with regards to mustachianism.

[undercover]

^ I'm all for outsourcing anything that makes sense to outsource. The decision whether to DIY or not largely comes down to your own salary/age/net worth IMO. Beyond that, you would simply have to enjoy doing something for it to make any sense because after a point it obviously doesn't make sense to do anything really yourself. It's stupid to think you need to DIY as a matter of saving the most money possible (almost never ends up that way) or as a matter of principle. I can think of 100 things I'd rather do that would still qualify as challenging/fulfilling than replace my own furnace. And as AI/robots slowly take over there will be more and more things that make less and less sense financially to do yourself.

Phone/PC repair is becoming a thing of the past just like with TVs. Driving will be a thing of the past. I think even cooking will become largely a thing of the past. People will still do it for fun and enjoyment, but it won't make financial sense. Just like even now driving to the grocery store for most people doesn't make any sense since it's as cheap or cheaper to have them delivered. The next step clearly is dirt cheap prepared meals delivered instantly.

[remizidae]

You know, I'm not sure I'm convinced that there is no relationship between money and happiness. I'm writing this from my comfortable home, which I don't have to share with roommates. The house is kept at a comfortable temperature. I'm wearing quality clothes that fit and don't have holes. My shoes don't hurt my feet when I walk. I have expensive foods like avocadoes, steak and cheese in the fridge. All of those things cost money AND add to my happiness (and I've lived without them, so I know).  Now, I could also list a lot of expensive things that would not add to my happiness.

Mustachianism, to me, is mindful spending. It's good to spend money on things that bring you happiness--and spend as little as possible on things that don't.

[Threshkin]

You know, I'm not sure I'm convinced that there is no relationship between money and happiness. I'm writing this from my comfortable home, which I don't have to share with roommates. The house is kept at a comfortable temperature. I'm wearing quality clothes that fit and don't have holes. My shoes don't hurt my feet when I walk. I have expensive foods like avocadoes, steak and cheese in the fridge. All of those things cost money AND add to my happiness (and I've lived without them, so I know).  Now, I could also list a lot of expensive things that would not add to my happiness.

Mustachianism, to me, is mindful spending. It's good to spend money on things that bring you happiness--and spend as little as possible on things that don't.

There is lots of relationship between money and happiness, as you outline above.  The thing is that money does not guarantee happiness just as a lack of money does not guarantee sorrow.  You can be poor and happy or rich and unhappy.

[Cranky]

What money can buy you is security. You can have great stuff, but if you are in debt for , it’s not making you comfortable (or at least, not me.)

The trick is finding the level that makes you comfortable and secure, and for a lot of people, realizing that more is not always better.

[EnjoyIt]

You know, I'm not sure I'm convinced that there is no relationship between money and happiness. I'm writing this from my comfortable home, which I don't have to share with roommates. The house is kept at a comfortable temperature. I'm wearing quality clothes that fit and don't have holes. My shoes don't hurt my feet when I walk. I have expensive foods like avocadoes, steak and cheese in the fridge. All of those things cost money AND add to my happiness (and I've lived without them, so I know).  Now, I could also list a lot of expensive things that would not add to my happiness.

Mustachianism, to me, is mindful spending. It's good to spend money on things that bring you happiness--and spend as little as possible on things that don't.

That is right on. Money does not purchase happiness on its own.  But money put in the right place can increase one's happiness.  This is what I have pulled from this site and this forum. 

We enjoy skiing, hiking, traveling, movies, live music, good healthy foods, healthcare, reasonable shelter, spending time with friends and family, new experiences, exercise, and so much more.  All of those things brings happiness to our lives and they all cost a certain amount of money.  Some more, some less but that is what encompasses our lives.  We also enjoy not having to worry about money which brings on less stress.  Financial independence costs money as well, and lots of it. 

I think Mustachiansism is understanding all those things, understanding the value of your time and your money and making the most out of it all. 

What money can buy you is security. You can have great stuff, but if you are in debt for , it’s not making you comfortable (or at least, not me.)

The trick is finding the level that makes you comfortable and secure, and for a lot of people, realizing that more is not always better.

It is a balancing act, and step #1 is understanding the value of your time and your money.