Author Topic: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?  (Read 33596 times)

EllieStan

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2015, 03:35:53 PM »

Mustachianism is about FI and options and badassity, yes.  It's not about dropping out ASAP.  It's about building a good life.  If quitting your job gets you there, great.  If working does, great.

This is also how I view Mustachianism. FI allows choices. Right now, I'm working because I need to. I'd like to reach a point in my life when I can choose if I still want to work (and I probably will). My SO has no desire to retire. Once we reach FI, we can decide to take sabbatical breaks to travel. But that option isn't possible until we reach a certain level of financial independance.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:37:31 PM by EllieStan »

biscuitwhomper

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2015, 03:48:02 PM »

Mustachianism is about FI and options and badassity, yes.  It's not about dropping out ASAP.  It's about building a good life.  If quitting your job gets you there, great.  If working does, great.

This is also how I view Mustachianism. FI allows choices. Right now, I'm working because I need to. I'd like to reach a point in my life when I can choose if I still want to work (and I probably will). My SO has no desire to retire. Once we reach FI, we can decide to take sabbatical breaks to travel. But that option isn't possible until we reach a certain level of financial independance.

This is a good answer.   My job is not perfect.   The fact that I can quit at any time is what makes my life good.   Right now, I'd still rather work, but if the d-baggery at my company ratchets up more, I can pull the rip-cord whenever I want.

freebeer

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2015, 08:37:40 AM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

matchewed

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2015, 08:55:10 AM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

Well then you both missed the post about the internet retirement police. The great thing is that how you two are defining it is not the only way to look at it, something almost everyone in this thread has tried to say. MMM comes across as wanting people to achieve financial independence, that is if they wanted to quit working they could, if they wanted to keep working they could, if they wanted to play games all day they could, if they wanted to build a spaceship they could...etc. It's about buying future options versus being forced to stay in one option for forty years.

freebeer

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2015, 09:09:35 AM »
... I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working...

Exactly... that's really my only point here, together with the question of whether MMM is generally correct in that assumption (regarding people in the upper tier of education/income, which are arguably those for whom Mustachian ER is the most realistic option).

BTW to some earlier responders in this thread - I do NOT place any negative value-judgment on ER (MMM style or any style) nor am I a member of the "retirement police". I don't believe that working for a salary is necessarily more contributive to society than other pursuits and am also a believer that informal/flexible work arrangements is on a vector to becoming more common than 9-5 toiling. I am just curious how broadly the ER part of Mustachianism (vs. the LBYM/frugality part of Mustachianism) should be expected to appeal, given those of us who achieve FI and don't seem to be so interested in ER.

A secondary point is that if most high earners aren't so interested in FI then the imperative for frugality is perhaps significantly lower. If a person expects to keep utilizing their significant embodied capital no matter what - because that is providing "exploit" satisfaction - then achieving FI sooner rather than later arguably could be more a nice-to-have than a must-do for that person. So some consumerism could be explained not as suckas getting increasingly stuck in traps but as rational ridiculousness because they are already (thanks to embodied capital) infinitely wealthy in MMM terms.

arebelspy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2015, 09:13:00 AM »
MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?" and him saying "Hell yes!" -- obviously it looks like he's telling them to quit, because they're asking if they can, and he responds emphatically.  That's not the tone of the overall message though, nor the point of Mustachianism.

It seems your mind is much too closed to gain anything from this, so I won't go on or address any other points, as it seems like a waste of time.

Best of luck to you, freebeer.
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matchewed

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2015, 09:15:46 AM »
So you're trying to differentiate between a veneer, the character MMM who with some bombast talks about "FREEEEEDOM" and the actual content of his posts? How he "comes off" is just the flash, it's the window dressing. You're ignoring the content of the store.

zenyata

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2015, 09:46:17 AM »
I'll chime in a bit regarding this notion of "exploit"...

I work in a very specialized field - hydrogeology - it doesn't get much more specialized.

It's an infinitely interesting field, results in decent compensation, and I certainly think it is important work for society (water is life etc.).

But based on ~ 25 yrs. experience now - in both public and private sector - the only "exploit" I see is the grinding down of the workforce under, as others have pointed out, ridiculous workloads, impossible productivity goals, and "mission creep" i.e. mostly doing administrative, accounting, and project management rather than scientific / technical work.

I think this comes down to a philosophical question of what work is meant to be - I originally got into a technical specialized field because the conventional wisdom was that was the path to not having a job that involved breaking rocks all day for 12 hr shifts or repetitive motion injury destruction of your body like my Dad endured on an assembly line at GM.  Sure if you wanted to dedicate every waking moment to pursuing your chosen specialty then by all means have at it.  But the lure was that the other option was equally viable - that a good job could be had that allowed reasonable hours and provided a good honest living in an endeavor that didn't just turn your brain or body to mush after a few years.  In my opinion though an opportunistic corporate culture, an asinine obsession with the Protestant work ethic, and a workforce largely on the consumer treadmill and possessing a "race to the bottom" mentality, have created an environment where the only sane decision for a lot of non-workaholic people is to pursue ER, regardless of how much they like their chosen field in theory.

capitalguy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2015, 10:25:30 AM »
I find your pseudo-intellectual tone insufferable.

Here's what it boils down to for me: In the current state of the western world, you generally need money to survive, and generally have to perform some sort of work to get money. I want to get myself to a point where I have all of the money I need to continue my lifestyle, and then am able to exist without worrying about money. Where I can work if I choose, or I can sleep away my days in a field if I choose. I am actively working to break free from my current wage-slave status.

Wile E. Coyote

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2015, 10:30:58 AM »
I suggest you read this blog post from MMM:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/

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But a third category is the Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual (Swami).

....

The message is that even if you’re not looking to actually retire from your job, your working life will improve quite magically as you grow your money mustache and start needing the job less and less.

I think that shooting for achieving Swami status is an ideal thing for EVERYONE who is still working – whether your goal is complete early retirement or just continued elevation along the levels of the Swami scale (note that most CEOs and celebrity types are in fact Swamis themselves – they absolutely do not need the money from working but they continue out of a sense of purpose).

brooklynguy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2015, 10:55:30 AM »
I find your pseudo-intellectual tone insufferable.

Consistent with forum rule # 2, I think we should all generally strive to respond to the content and the merits of a post, not the tone (unless the tone is unambiguously offensive).  It's easy to misconstrue a post's tone (which is not always easily expressed through this medium of communication), and I've been both a victim and a perpetrator of this myself.  Who knows, the tone you're calling "pseudo-intellectual" could very well be considered simply "intellectual" if you agreed with the content being expressed :-)

capitalguy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2015, 11:09:27 AM »
I find your pseudo-intellectual tone insufferable.

Consistent with forum rule # 2, I think we should all generally strive to respond to the content and the merits of a post, not the tone (unless the tone is unambiguously offensive).  It's easy to misconstrue a post's tone (which is not always easily expressed through this medium of communication), and I've been both a victim and a perpetrator of this myself.  Who knows, the tone you're calling "pseudo-intellectual" could very well be considered simply "intellectual" if you agreed with the content being expressed :-)

If we're citing rules, allow me to put forward the following:


Orwell's Six Rules

1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

2. Never use a long word where a short one will do.

3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

4. Never use the passive where you can use the active.

5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.


boarder42

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2015, 11:46:14 AM »
The RETIRE RIGHT NOW statement many people refer to on here is usually in conjunction with "i dont have enough to retire" or "i hate my job" or any other statement not saying i love my job and i'll work for ever. 

Your also and older person if you've been working for 30 years.  and your generation identified themselves with their careers much more than the millenial generation does. 

if you gave 90%+ of the people in this country unlimited funds (basicaly the FI we speak of here)  and asked them what they would do with it ... most if not all would not be working the same job the same way they are right now.   

This is independence

This is the freedom we are striving for here

I like what i do... its fun... but if given the choice to do any of my hobbies that currently makes me no money full time i'd probably be doing much more of that and less of this.  but thats just me

mm1970

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2015, 12:19:08 PM »
Quote
The MMM default approach (work less than 10 years saving like crazy, then retire early) is not so great if we make the assumption that "exploit" is (for many of us) best undertaken at an office rather than in our kitchens. And if we are getting good "exploit" (and, perhaps, even "badassity") at the office, then what's the point of seeking it at home by doing routine chores. Being a "jack of all trades" is great and all, but is it worth greatly reducing the "embodied capital" of an educated specialist?

I think there are a couple things with this:
1.  I am a jack of all trades by nature.  At my age, of course, I have specialized knowledge and depth in many areas of engineering, because I've been doing it so long.  But I like to have my fingers in a lot of things.  AT work and at home, so as not to get bored.

2.  The problem with full specialization and ignoring all aspects of "jack of all trades" is when you can't get a job anymore and have no other skills to fall back on. What if you CAN'T get anyone to pay you for your expertise anymore?  And then you don't know how to cook, clean, garden, mend, etc?

mm1970

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2015, 12:23:16 PM »
Quote
And if you aren't really FI yet, then whether you should meet your needs by doing X hours of low-skill unpaid labor or doing Y hours of high-skilled (and more rewarding) paid labor and hiring the job done with the proceeds is not obvious (perhaps even if Y > X). Whereas MMM seems to argue that it is obvious and in favor of the unpaid labor (even if X > Y).

I'm not sure how I would do that, as a full time salaried employee.

Doing my own cooking means I can save money on my own time.

Trying to get a paying job?  At my rate, I cannot get a second job at half time.

That's the big disconnect.  Plus a second half time job is AWAY from my kids, which, duh, cooking is not.

horsepoor

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2015, 02:15:02 PM »

This is the freedom we are striving for here

I like what i do... its fun... but if given the choice to do any of my hobbies that currently makes me no money full time i'd probably be doing much more of that and less of this.  but thats just me

Ditto.  I actually have an amazing job.  I'm paid well, don't work long hours, and get to work on a pretty wide variety of projects, and administrivia is not too ridiculous.  The work is interesting, and usually not too stressful, I'm appreciated and I have some flexibility in my schedule.  However, I still have to put in 80 hours every two weeks, attend meetings and conference calls, and sit indoors on beautiful days.  Right now it's 64 and sunny, but will probably be raining over the weekend, so I'd love to chuck my responsibilities and go work in the garden or ride my horses. I guess those are my exploits, but I don't want to do either of those things for 80 hours a week, either.  I bend over backwards to pack them into my schedule though, because being a professional basically means working 40+ hours per week, unless you're FI enough to freelance and take projects ad hoc.  I think that most professional jobs, even if they have intellectual variety, don't offer enough physical variety - that is, I've got my ass in a chair for 6+ hours most days, and it goes against my nature - working more to pay for stuff I could DIY, would mean going even more against nature by spending more time in front of a screen instead of moving and engaging my brain in more hands-on ways that my work does not (digging in the dirt, building things, training horses).  Let's not also forget that DIY skills, even if you don't employ them every day, are recession-proofing.  Skills like gardening and scratch cooking are undervalued, and underestimated, IMO.  It's taken me a solid decade to get really good at both skills, to the point that I can grow a big portion of our food and be really efficient at using it.  People who think they'd use these skills in a crunch, but haven't developed them, might be in for a rude awakening on the learning curve involved.

http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-designed/

freebeer

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2015, 02:55:11 PM »
MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

Only? Did you even read his tweet that I referenced?

iamlindoro

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2015, 03:05:34 PM »
MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

Only? Did you even read his tweet that I referenced?

Did you?  The tweet is a response to an article that states:

"The couple has two key long-term goals that they’re concerned about: saving enough in RESPs to pay for a university education for their three kids, and retiring when Raj turns 60 with $85,000 a year in net income for the rest of their lives."

Obviously retirement *is* a goal for this couple.  Are you seriously implying that all the nuance of MMM's philosophy can be encapsulated in 140 characters inclusive of the link to the article itself?

Frankly, you seem to be continuously moving the goalposts.  Nobody reads the fundamental philosophy espoused by this site as you seem to.  Rather than accept a differing viewpoint from your own or accept that you might be reading it differently than the majority, you muddy the waters with a seemingly slippery premise, and then suggest that others are the ones at fault when you yourself cannot be pinned down.  You don't seem to want to find common ground-- and can't accept when others won't jump on board your flawed reading of MMM.

If you want to continue to argue, summarize your own viewpoint, and be consistent.  Also, make sure to do it in less than 140 characters.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 03:08:11 PM by iamlindoro »

brooklynguy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2015, 03:26:34 PM »
If you want to continue to argue, summarize your own viewpoint, and be consistent.  Also, make sure to do it in less than 140 characters.

Hear, hear!

(And while you're at it, you might as well take pains to follow Orwell's six rules of writing...)

East River Guide

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2015, 04:09:04 PM »
"exploit" is (for many of us) best undertaken at an office rather than in our kitchens

Interesting point and I fit more in this category.  For me retirement isn't the goal, it's getting enough FI to let me pursue however much I want of whatever else I feel like wherever it happens to be.  I guess that doesn't make for as interesting a blog though. 

FIRE me

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2015, 12:22:42 AM »
I have had two personal problems with aspects of "Mustachianism".

One is the assumption that minimizing the number of years of traditional (salaried / company) work is a generally desirable element of an individual's life course.


So, fine. Don't subscribe. Have a great life.

The second, arguably related assumption, is that personally engaging in a wide variety of useful activities (home remodeling, house cleaning, growing vegetables, etc. ) is more meritorious than trading the monetary fruits of specialized labor for such services.

I basically don't agree with either proposition.

Seriously, why would you waste your time here?

As background, I'm someone with a similar educational background to that of MMM who has for over 30 years engaged in generally "salaried" work in the IT industry.

I am definitely a supporter of the "LBYM" aspect of Mustachianism including the implicit rejection of ridiculousity in our consumerist society. And for the last 4+ years, while I'm still fully employed, I have traded significantly reduced total compensation for much more time flexibility and autonomy.

But the idea that I'd be even better off not working at all has never felt right. I enjoy what I do and those whom I work with, and I feel I'm accomplishing good things for the world as well as myself in so doing. Having "FU money" is a very nice safety net and I am sure that if I didn't work I would (and hopefully someday will) pursue more vigorously various activities that I also enjoy and new ones to boot, but meanwhile I would rank most of my work time as among the most enjoyable of my overall time (and the least rewarding bits of work time as no less satisfying than the least rewarding of non-work time such as doing household chores).

I recently stumbled on an article by researchers at Oxford University that deals with this issue and the seeming dilemma that the most highly compensated people are now working the most hours: http://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/materials/papers/wp20143.pdf

The Economist sound-bited it as:

Quote
Back in 1899 Thorstein Veblen... argued that leisure was a “badge of honour”. Rich people could get others to do the dirty, repetitive work—what Veblen called “industry”. Yet Veblen’s leisure class was not idle. Rather they engaged in “exploit”: challenging and creative activities such as writing, philanthropy and debating.

Veblen’s theory needs updating... Work in advanced economies has become more knowledge-intensive and intellectual. There are fewer really dull jobs, like lift-operating, and more glamorous ones, like fashion design. That means more people than ever can enjoy “exploit” at the office. Work has come to offer the sort of pleasures that rich people used to seek in their time off. On the flip side, leisure is no longer a sign of social power. Instead it symbolises uselessness and unemployment.

The MMM default approach (work less than 10 years saving like crazy, then retire early) is not so great if we make the assumption that "exploit" is (for many of us) best undertaken at an office rather than in our kitchens. And if we are getting good "exploit" (and, perhaps, even "badassity") at the office, then what's the point of seeking it at home by doing routine chores. Being a "jack of all trades" is great and all, but is it worth greatly reducing the "embodied capital" of an educated specialist?

Of course this approach has worked great for MMM himself... I'm just questioning it as a general recommendation. And that harsh last bit ("leisure ... now symbolises uselessness and unemployment") might even help explain why early-retired folks seem to have a harder time getting dates...

And I don't agree with any of those propositions.

On the other hand, I have a neighbor in his late 70's who is still working. It is his life, his decision. I have no desire to second guess him.

libertarian4321

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2015, 12:56:30 AM »
I enjoy what I do and those whom I work with, and I feel I'm accomplishing good things for the world as well as myself in so doing.

If you have a truly important and rewarding job, e.g. performing life saving surgery on small children or cute puppies, and really enjoy it, then fine, keep working.

But most of us work the 98% of jobs that are NOT especially important and are not rewarding in any way other than salary and benefits.  We work not because we wake up every morning thinking "Oh BOY!  I can't wait to fight the traffic, get to my job, and spend 10-hours hunched over a computer churning out the financials on the Jones Account today!"

Sometime next week while you are at your job, ask yourself, "If I could be anywhere or doing anything right now, is sitting here at my job where I would choose to be if 1) I was not being paid to do it and 2) society/family didn't expect it of you?

If you can truly say that, compensation and societal pressure aside, there is nothing in the world you'd rather be doing than whatever you do at work, you are blessed far beyond what most people can ever hope for.  Either that, or you need counseling for workaholism.

I hear people say "I love my job and wouldn't quit yada yada yada" all the time.  But they usually change their tune pretty quick when I get them to really consider if that is what they really want to do, more than anything else in life.

When they really analyze it, the reason most of them work is to make money (with societal pressure being a distant, but significant, second).  But if you already have more money than you need, why do something that isn't really what you most want to do, just to earn more money that you don't need?

BTW, it is NOT always easy to break out of the mold that society expects us to conform to- especially in the USA, where "work" is revered to an insane degree (far more than in Europe). 

My wife is a perfect example.  She says she likes her work, but bitches about it all the time. 

But she simply can't pull the trigger and quit.  She doesn't have the courage to put up with the crap she'd get from friends, family, society.  So she trudges to work every day to make more money that we don't need.

I'm still working on her- if I can get a workaholic like her to quit before age 60, I'll consider it a victory. :)


DecD

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2015, 08:01:18 AM »
Well, freebeer, I'm not sure what you're after here.  You seem to want a discussion on a certain topic ("are Americans really happy or unhappy in their work, and has happiness in work increased in the last couple of generations").  We've had one response that linked to an article suggesting that Americans are quite unhappy in their work.  Have you done a google scholar search for articles that support this question one way or another?

Or are you looking for anecdotal evidence?  Because I can offer some if that's what you're looking for.

I'm highly educated and specialized- PhD in aerospace engineering, and I have a job in my field.  I've had several jobs in my field, actually, the kind that people would call dream jobs. 

But the thing is- in order to get paid by somebody, I have to do the job THEY want me to do.  I don't have the freedom to pursue the pure research I really love (except on the side, for free- which I am doing, incidentally.)  At the moment, I'm quite unsatisfied in my job, as it has become a quagmire of documentation, meetings, and management.  I'm in the process of making changes and exploring options (some smaller, some more drastic) to improve my job satisfaction.  But the point remains that despite my specialization, and the fact that I really like my coworkers and work in a positive and supportive office, the job is not so fun that I'd be there at all if I weren't getting paid for it. 

In fact...I don't know a single person in that office who would continue to work there if they didn't need the money.  At least, not full time.  Half time?  If you could drop the half of the job that's awful? (meetings, documentation, reports etc)? Then maybe.  In fact, I might plan to work half time after we're FI to fund some extras or the kids' educations or what have you, if I could find a task that's sufficiently interesting and convince my company to let me do it.  But I still wouldn't do it for free.

If I were working for free?  I've got research ideas of my own I'd pursue.  And my garden.  And extended summer camping trips with my family.  And fitness/exercise pursuits.  And a list of other things.

The point is- when I'm FI, I'll have the choice to either continue to work part time in my field (a good choice for me I think if I can find such an arrangement) or not.  To take leaves of absence to spend with my children in the summer (if corporate policy will allow me to).  To ditch the horrible soul-sucking parts of my job.  And to NOT spend 40 hours a week damaging my body by leaving it sedentary in front of a computer. 

So what are you looking for here?  I am highly specialized and work in the space industry (space!  cool!) and I know zero people at my place of work who would still be there in a month if they won the lottery today.  Anecdotal, yes.  But there's my experience, and that's why I'm choosing to pursue financial independence.

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2015, 09:47:21 AM »
If I were FI, I would probably keep working for awhile,  but I would work differently.  No more repetitive weekly safety meetings rehashing the same rehashed hash. No more mandatory annual bullshit training. I would work the hours that pleased me (taking off that sunny Wednesday mentioned earlier) and I would attend more conferences irrespective of my employer's willingness to pay. I would ignore the painfully detailed annual performance review and I would take a solid month off every year and travel. I would leave early every Monday for martial arts @ 430 rather than having to take the late class. Et cetera.

I would do more actual work and less irrelevant bullshit.

East River Guide

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2015, 06:41:11 PM »
It's like HDT said, if you are happy as you are then maybe some of the ideas don't apply:


I do not mean to prescribe rules to strong and valiant natures, who will mind their own affairs whether in heaven or hell, and perchance build more magnificently and spend more lavishly than the richest, without ever impoverishing themselves, not knowing how they live — if, indeed, there are any such, as has been dreamed; nor to those who find their encouragement and inspiration in precisely the present condition of things, and cherish it with the fondness and enthusiasm of lovers — and, to some extent, I reckon myself in this number; I do not speak to those who are well employed, in whatever circumstances, and they know whether they are well employed or not; — but mainly to the mass of men who are discontented, and idly complaining of the hardness of their lot or of the times, when they might improve them. There are some who complain most energetically and inconsolably of any, because they are, as they say, doing their duty. I also have in my mind that seemingly wealthy, but most terribly impoverished class of all, who have accumulated dross, but know not how to use it, or get rid of it, and thus have forged their own golden or silver fetters.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 06:46:48 PM by East River Guide »

whydavid

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2015, 02:31:18 PM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

Well then you both missed the post about the internet retirement police. The great thing is that how you two are defining it is not the only way to look at it, something almost everyone in this thread has tried to say. MMM comes across as wanting people to achieve financial independence, that is if they wanted to quit working they could, if they wanted to keep working they could, if they wanted to play games all day they could, if they wanted to build a spaceship they could...etc. It's about buying future options versus being forced to stay in one option for forty years.

I think I've been misunderstood here.  Probably my fault.

I don't think MMM assumes folks always want to quit working -- I've read everything he's written on the subject and know that's not the case.  The point of my post was simply that not every sound bite carries all of that nuance; the tweet referenced was a great example of that.  So, someone could be forgiven for making the assumption that MMM thinks everyone wants to quit their jobs, if their only exposure was via these sound bites and they hadn't read deeper.  That's all I meant.

The bit about context (i.e. the 'subject' has already stated their desire to quit, thus MMM is replying in kind under the assumption that is the goal) was not quoted by freebeer above and is kind of critical to the point I was making.  ARS stated this more clearly:

MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2015, 02:40:00 PM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

Well then you both missed the post about the internet retirement police. The great thing is that how you two are defining it is not the only way to look at it, something almost everyone in this thread has tried to say. MMM comes across as wanting people to achieve financial independence, that is if they wanted to quit working they could, if they wanted to keep working they could, if they wanted to play games all day they could, if they wanted to build a spaceship they could...etc. It's about buying future options versus being forced to stay in one option for forty years.

I think I've been misunderstood here.  Probably my fault.

I don't think MMM assumes folks always want to quit working -- I've read everything he's written on the subject and know that's not the case.  The point of my post was simply that not every sound bite carries all of that nuance; the tweet referenced was a great example of that.  So, someone could be forgiven for making the assumption that MMM thinks everyone wants to quit their jobs, if their only exposure was via these sound bites and they hadn't read deeper.  That's all I meant.

The bit about context (i.e. the 'subject' has already stated their desire to quit, thus MMM is replying in kind under the assumption that is the goal) was not quoted by freebeer above and is kind of critical to the point I was making.  ARS stated this more clearly:

MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

All this is crazy talk.  If you enjoy it or not, what does that matter?  But I believe MOST people would not want to HAVE TO work if they so chose.  It's the "having to" in order to live a decent life that is the problem.  I don't mind my job, but I'd like to not HAVE TO do it.  ...See the difference there?

I believe MMM is 100% correct if he extolls the position that MOST PEOPLE would rather not HAVE TO work. 

"Yes, I like going to work every day"  versus "Yes, I like HAVING to go to work every day."

Ersh...  People can create the hugest logical conundrums out of nothing.  :(

whydavid

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2015, 02:47:19 PM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

Well then you both missed the post about the internet retirement police. The great thing is that how you two are defining it is not the only way to look at it, something almost everyone in this thread has tried to say. MMM comes across as wanting people to achieve financial independence, that is if they wanted to quit working they could, if they wanted to keep working they could, if they wanted to play games all day they could, if they wanted to build a spaceship they could...etc. It's about buying future options versus being forced to stay in one option for forty years.

I think I've been misunderstood here.  Probably my fault.

I don't think MMM assumes folks always want to quit working -- I've read everything he's written on the subject and know that's not the case.  The point of my post was simply that not every sound bite carries all of that nuance; the tweet referenced was a great example of that.  So, someone could be forgiven for making the assumption that MMM thinks everyone wants to quit their jobs, if their only exposure was via these sound bites and they hadn't read deeper.  That's all I meant.

The bit about context (i.e. the 'subject' has already stated their desire to quit, thus MMM is replying in kind under the assumption that is the goal) was not quoted by freebeer above and is kind of critical to the point I was making.  ARS stated this more clearly:

MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

All this is crazy talk.  If you enjoy it or not, what does that matter?  But I believe MOST people would not want to HAVE TO work if they so chose.  It's the "having to" in order to live a decent life that is the problem.  I don't mind my job, but I'd like to not HAVE TO do it.  ...See the difference there?

I believe MMM is 100% correct if he extolls the position that MOST PEOPLE would rather not HAVE TO work. 

"Yes, I like going to work every day"  versus "Yes, I like HAVING to go to work every day."

Ersh...  People can create the hugest logical conundrums out of nothing.  :(

I'm not sure who you are aiming this blinding glimpse of the obvious towards?  Did you actually read the post you were replying to?

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2015, 03:17:47 PM »
MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

Only? Did you even read his tweet that I referenced?

Did you read the SWAMI article yet? It's already been linked once.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/

And then there's the article about the guy who hated early retirement.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/23/reader-story-the-man-who-thought-early-retirement-sucked/

MMM clearly thinks it's fine for people to keep working if that's what they want to do. Please acknowledge.

arebelspy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2015, 07:03:15 PM »
Today's article seems directly relevant:
Great News – Early Retirement Doesn’t Mean You’ll Stop Working.

Maybe now you'll read MMM the same way the rest of us do, freebeer.  It might be worth rereading the old posts with that mindset, you may get a lot more out of them.  :)
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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2015, 05:50:13 AM »

..."retire - and by that I mean either quit working altogether or do something you enjoy regardless of income - RIGHT NOW - you've made it!" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.  ...  I think you are right that he typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working, but he'd be a giant gasbag if he always attached a full explanation of what is meant when he says "retire."...

Exactly my point: MMM typically comes across as assuming that most people want to quit working.

The question is whether this is in fact true (for folks at the upper end of education/income, for whom Mustachianism ER is a reasonable possibility).

Well then you both missed the post about the internet retirement police. The great thing is that how you two are defining it is not the only way to look at it, something almost everyone in this thread has tried to say. MMM comes across as wanting people to achieve financial independence, that is if they wanted to quit working they could, if they wanted to keep working they could, if they wanted to play games all day they could, if they wanted to build a spaceship they could...etc. It's about buying future options versus being forced to stay in one option for forty years.

I think I've been misunderstood here.  Probably my fault.

I don't think MMM assumes folks always want to quit working -- I've read everything he's written on the subject and know that's not the case.  The point of my post was simply that not every sound bite carries all of that nuance; the tweet referenced was a great example of that.  So, someone could be forgiven for making the assumption that MMM thinks everyone wants to quit their jobs, if their only exposure was via these sound bites and they hadn't read deeper.  That's all I meant.

The bit about context (i.e. the 'subject' has already stated their desire to quit, thus MMM is replying in kind under the assumption that is the goal) was not quoted by freebeer above and is kind of critical to the point I was making.  ARS stated this more clearly:

MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

Not every soundbite will carry every nuance... I can agree to that. But we're not talking about single soundbites but whole articles. When someone is discussing a "fatal flaw" in a system and utilizes soundbites to defend their position rather than try to understand the system being discussed then they are going to be wrong usually. Relying on soundbites to come up with your opinion on a thing is intellectually lazy.

And the last part with ARS's quote is also true for anyone not asking that question. People who are asking the question "Can I become financially independent and still work?" will not even see anything about retiring. So while ARS is correct in what he is saying I  think it is being misinterpreted as a defense for the idea that MMM is all about retirement, which it is not. It is more about learning about what you want out of life and taking responsibility for creating that life. That could be retirement, it could be work, it could be anything.

Forest from the trees.

hoosier

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2015, 07:02:02 AM »
I know I'm new here....and new to MMM in general.  I find this post very interesting feel compelled to comment.

The OP's main gripe here seems to be that if you are truly Mustachian, then it is truly right and just to drop your day job like a bad habit.  Also they question "is work getting more/less interesting".  It is also noteworthy that they carry a self-proclaimed heavy bias that work "is interesting"...and working at your day job is far more enjoyable than menial tasks like home improvement.

Many senior members of the forum have repeatedly argued with great conviction that quitting your job the minute you are able to is not essential to being Mustachian.

I know I've just repeated the obvious, but bear with me.

The OP likes his job, which is great, and is waving an Oxford paper around saying "hey, people like me who are well educated and well paid find work interesting" .  Why would one do this?  And why come here to do it?  The answer seems pretty clear - they are rationalizing something.  Rationalizing wanting to work.  That's what is bothering the OP - an underlying need to rationalize the desire for them to continue working.

To the OP - Why rationalize working?  But more importantly, why the NEED to rationalize working? 

I'm not a psychologist - couldn't be further from one.  When someone heavily biased in one direction comes to a forum heavily biased in another direction they are either looking for a fight (which they do not appear to be), or are looking to rationalize some behavior by getting somebody to say something that they disagree with that will push them past the tipping point in their stance on the issue.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 07:04:29 AM by hoosier »

velocistar237

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2015, 07:47:50 AM »
The Oxford study just says that work is more enjoyable than it used to be, not that work is enjoyable, period. If 10% of jobs used to be enjoyable, and 20% of jobs are now enjoyable, that's not all that meaningful. There are plenty of studies that show that a large percentage of the workforce is dissatisfied with their jobs.

Going back to the original two points:

I have had two personal problems with aspects of "Mustachianism".

One is the assumption that minimizing the number of years of traditional (salaried / company) work is a generally desirable element of an individual's life course.

The second, arguably related assumption, is that personally engaging in a wide variety of useful activities (home remodeling, house cleaning, growing vegetables, etc. ) is more meritorious than trading the monetary fruits of specialized labor for such services.

I basically don't agree with either proposition.

Let's fix these straw men:

1) Minimizing the number of years of BS work is a generally desirable element of an individual life's course.
2) Personally engaging in a wide variety of useful activities is often more rewarding and efficient than trading the monetary fruits of specialized labor for such services.

Bringing this back to the latest MMM post, if there are any "supposed to's" in Mustachianism, it's that you're supposed to use your FI as leverage to find the work you like to do (in agreement with OP), and to not do it more than you want to. In addition, you're supposed to insource things that people generally outsource inefficiently because of laziness/learned-helplessness/working-too-muchness.

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2015, 10:22:45 AM »
The OP likes his job, which is great, and is waving an Oxford paper around saying "hey, people like me who are well educated and well paid find work interesting" .  Why would one do this?  And why come here to do it?  The answer seems pretty clear - they are rationalizing something.  Rationalizing wanting to work.  That's what is bothering the OP - an underlying need to rationalize the desire for them to continue working.

To the OP - Why rationalize working?  But more importantly, why the NEED to rationalize working? 


Not the OP, and also new, but let me chip in my $.02.  I'm in the same boat as the OP, high performer, fairly high salary (same with my wife on both accounts), and enjoy my job.  I read a lot of financial blogs (I work in finance), and stumbled across this one. 

What I object to, and maybe the OP too, is that people who aren't following the same MMM path "don't get it" "are sheeples" "are mindless" "are conspicuous consumption consumers" etc.  And it's simply not true.  I can consciously, knowledgably deviate from the MMM path because my goals are not necessarily the same as the MMM goals.  If the goal is (for example) to save 50% of your salary for 10 years so you are FI and can walk away, maybe it makes sense for me to save 25% of my salary for 20 years, because I'm not in such a hurry.  So you see me in my car, or at a restaurant, or watching cable TV, and it's not because I "don't get it" or am a "sheeple", it's because I've set a budget for myself, including a fairly significant amount of savings on a dollar basis (even if not as impressive %-wise) and that budget still allows for indulgences.  The way this blog is written doesn't really seem to account for that. 

And then I read

Quote
But most of us work the 98% of jobs that are NOT especially important and are not rewarding in any way other than salary and benefits.  We work not because we wake up every morning thinking "Oh BOY!  I can't wait to fight the traffic, get to my job, and spend 10-hours hunched over a computer churning out the financials on the Jones Account today!"

Sometime next week while you are at your job, ask yourself, "If I could be anywhere or doing anything right now, is sitting here at my job where I would choose to be if 1) I was not being paid to do it and 2) society/family didn't expect it of you?

If you can truly say that, compensation and societal pressure aside, there is nothing in the world you'd rather be doing than whatever you do at work, you are blessed far beyond what most people can ever hope for.  Either that, or you need counseling for workaholism.

It honestly makes me feel sad.  I wonder what type of life and surroundings this person has to feel this way.  Is every waking moment at my job pure bliss?  Of course not.  Do I sit at my desk and look at my picture of a sailboat and of the Hawaii coastline and wish I was doing those things?  Sure.  But those are fairly fleeting; I know I'd get tired with those things as well.  It's like seeing a smokin' hot chick walk down the street; there might be a temporary flare up of lust, but I know I'll be much happier going home to my wife whom I love (and is a looker too!)  Point is, IN GENERAL, MOST OF THE TIME, I like being at my job enough that I am not in a huge hurry to leave, and, as a bonus, it pays pretty well too.  I really think that the membership here attributes a much higher amount of hatred for their job to the average person than is realistic.  As Shakespeare said "If all the year were playing holidays; To sport would be as tedious as to work.”


Anyways, not looking to pick a fight, or talk for the OP, but just trying to clarify that just because someone has different priorities or goals does not make them wrong, and that because their goals may differ, seeing them in pursuit of them may look wrong or dumb or silly from one perspective, but correct from another.  If you're walking to the mountains, and I'm walking into town, sure, my path is a stupid ignorant way to get to the mountains.  But if I'm going to the town, maybe I know what I'm doing. 

matchewed

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »
The OP likes his job, which is great, and is waving an Oxford paper around saying "hey, people like me who are well educated and well paid find work interesting" .  Why would one do this?  And why come here to do it?  The answer seems pretty clear - they are rationalizing something.  Rationalizing wanting to work.  That's what is bothering the OP - an underlying need to rationalize the desire for them to continue working.

To the OP - Why rationalize working?  But more importantly, why the NEED to rationalize working? 


Not the OP, and also new, but let me chip in my $.02.  I'm in the same boat as the OP, high performer, fairly high salary (same with my wife on both accounts), and enjoy my job.  I read a lot of financial blogs (I work in finance), and stumbled across this one. 

What I object to, and maybe the OP too, is that people who aren't following the same MMM path "don't get it" "are sheeples" "are mindless" "are conspicuous consumption consumers" etc.  And it's simply not true.  I can consciously, knowledgably deviate from the MMM path because my goals are not necessarily the same as the MMM goals.  If the goal is (for example) to save 50% of your salary for 10 years so you are FI and can walk away, maybe it makes sense for me to save 25% of my salary for 20 years, because I'm not in such a hurry.  So you see me in my car, or at a restaurant, or watching cable TV, and it's not because I "don't get it" or am a "sheeple", it's because I've set a budget for myself, including a fairly significant amount of savings on a dollar basis (even if not as impressive %-wise) and that budget still allows for indulgences.  The way this blog is written doesn't really seem to account for that. 


It's like you haven't read the thread. There are people who do not interpret it as needing to have a 50% savings rate in order to receive your MMM badge. It's cool if 25% is what you save and you've optimized the shit out of your expenses. But if you're just sitting pretty with some upper middle class/rich life and are able to save 25% out of sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht then you're not getting it.

From the OP -
I have had two personal problems with aspects of "Mustachianism".

One is the assumption that minimizing the number of years of traditional (salaried / company) work is a generally desirable element of an individual's life course.

The second, arguably related assumption, is that personally engaging in a wide variety of useful activities (home remodeling, house cleaning, growing vegetables, etc. ) is more meritorious than trading the monetary fruits of specialized labor for such services.

I basically don't agree with either proposition.

You already admit to the first assumption just via the fact that you're saving. You are on the MMM spectrum. Many people are who do plan on working for as long as they wish. The saving isn't to "retire" so much as it is to have purchased future options. People who don't get the concept of buying their future are the sheeple, people who sit there and live life according to what they see in advertisements or because that's what they've always been told and they can't imagine a different way of living, those people... they're sheeple. You could still be a sheeple w/ 25% savings rate, but probably not as you've demonstrated an ability to realize that money is for the future and spending it all now on crap isn't necessarily good for your long term happiness and health. Maybe we're just having problems with interpreting the blog differently than you. I tend to look at things and figure out how they can apply to me and my life, not necessarily worry about whether my goals are identical to the author (which is ridiculous, we're different people, we'll have different goals).

arebelspy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2015, 10:55:13 AM »
There are people who do not interpret it as needing to have a 50% savings rate in order to receive your MMM badge. It's cool if 25% is what you save and you've optimized the shit out of your expenses. But if you're just sitting pretty with some upper middle class/rich life and are able to save 25% out of sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht then you're not getting it.

Great example, very well put.
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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2015, 11:13:31 AM »
It's like you haven't read the thread. There are people who do not interpret it as needing to have a 50% savings rate in order to receive your MMM badge. It's cool if 25% is what you save and you've optimized the shit out of your expenses. But if you're just sitting pretty with some upper middle class/rich life and are able to save 25% out of sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht then you're not getting it.

Entirely possible that I'm not getting it.  I haven't "optimized the shit out of my expenses" because I don't need to in order to maintain a reasonable savings rate.  So I guess I'm closer to your "sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht" end of the scale (though the yacht in question would be a dinghy), but struggle to understand why there is a required sacrifice component. 

IOW, reading this blog there's a feeling that you might see me on the street and say "there's a guy in a $30k car who must be commuting to a job he hates in order to support his materialistic lifestyle, on a debt-based treadmill he'll never get off of."  Instead, you could say "there's a guy driving a paid-for car to a job he likes, and he's got a healthy growing nest egg and a financially comfortable lifestyle that he can easily afford to support."  Yes, the latter is "not mustachian" but it's also not "sheeple."  Balance.  Middle ground.  There doesn't seem to be an acknowledgement of that in the "MMM" vs. "Sheeple" dichotomy that has been created.

matchewed

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2015, 11:34:55 AM »
It's like you haven't read the thread. There are people who do not interpret it as needing to have a 50% savings rate in order to receive your MMM badge. It's cool if 25% is what you save and you've optimized the shit out of your expenses. But if you're just sitting pretty with some upper middle class/rich life and are able to save 25% out of sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht then you're not getting it.

Entirely possible that I'm not getting it.  I haven't "optimized the shit out of my expenses" because I don't need to in order to maintain a reasonable savings rate.  So I guess I'm closer to your "sheer lack of needing to buy that yacht" end of the scale (though the yacht in question would be a dinghy), but struggle to understand why there is a required sacrifice component. 

IOW, reading this blog there's a feeling that you might see me on the street and say "there's a guy in a $30k car who must be commuting to a job he hates in order to support his materialistic lifestyle, on a debt-based treadmill he'll never get off of."  Instead, you could say "there's a guy driving a paid-for car to a job he likes, and he's got a healthy growing nest egg and a financially comfortable lifestyle that he can easily afford to support."  Yes, the latter is "not mustachian" but it's also not "sheeple."  Balance.  Middle ground.  There doesn't seem to be an acknowledgement of that in the "MMM" vs. "Sheeple" dichotomy that has been created.

Actually there's no assumption you're commuting to a job you hate. The assumption is that you're probably living a scripted life. That scripted life doesn't necessarily mean that you're uncomfortable or sad. There are plenty of people who live all sorts of lifestyles and are happy with it. Are they living their lives though? If it's a script they're getting from what living a middle class lifestyle should be then probably not. And that's cool if you're cool with it. I would say the Mustachian would be living the life they want to, and their savings would be a tool to do so. If that included some aspects of middle class life I can see it. But if it was just a carbon copy of middle class life then I can't.

The note on optimization is more about tackling the waste that our lives generate. About setting good solid sustainable examples of living for ourselves and future generations. A standard middle class lifestyle is extremely wasteful, again... if you're cool w/ that...  The optimization is about minimizing that, and frankly to us it's not sacrifice, it's just living. Just as you seem to assume I see a middle class person commuting to work and shake my head and think those thoughts, you are stating that you see a person who is not in a fancy car commuting to a middle class job and think that they are sacrificing, when in fact they are probably living a financially comfortable lifestyle that they can easily afford to support.

The false dichotomy that is being put in place is either that you live a middle class lifestyle or are suffering. Not MMM vs. Sheeple. There is no suffering on my side of the fence. There are tons of people who live completely fine middle class lifestyles on probably a quarter of what you spend. Hence the terms "Volcano of Wastefulness", which I am a part of too. I try to work at it, it is a process and a lifestyle, not a line in the sand. If you don't buy into it or don't get it, fine, have a nice day and an awesome life. If you do, then you'll work towards it because it is a fulfilling aspect of living, not some sacrifice to it.

And furthermore it seems you've ignored the rest of my post about defining sheeple more. I'll repost it just in case you just happened to miss it. :)

You already admit to the first assumption just via the fact that you're saving. You are on the MMM spectrum. Many people are who do plan on working for as long as they wish. The saving isn't to "retire" so much as it is to have purchased future options. People who don't get the concept of buying their future are the sheeple, people who sit there and live life according to what they see in advertisements or because that's what they've always been told and they can't imagine a different way of living, those people... they're sheeple. You could still be a sheeple w/ 25% savings rate, but probably not as you've demonstrated an ability to realize that money is for the future and spending it all now on crap isn't necessarily good for your long term happiness and health. Maybe we're just having problems with interpreting the blog differently than you. I tend to look at things and figure out how they can apply to me and my life, not necessarily worry about whether my goals are identical to the author (which is ridiculous, we're different people, we'll have different goals).

velocistar237

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2015, 11:37:20 AM »
Entirely possible that I'm not getting it.  I haven't "optimized the shit out of my expenses" because I don't need to in order to maintain a reasonable savings rate.  ... 

The "optimizing" is based on the idea that being above a certain level of consumption, you hit rapidly diminishing returns. What advantage does a $30K car have over a $10K reliable car? It's about scaling our spending and our perception according to our actual needs.

...  Instead, you could say "there's a guy driving a paid-for car to a job he likes, and he's got a healthy growing nest egg and a financially comfortable lifestyle that he can easily afford to support."  Yes, the latter is "not mustachian" but it's also not "sheeple."  Balance.  Middle ground.  There doesn't seem to be an acknowledgement of that in the "MMM" vs. "Sheeple" dichotomy that has been created.

Statistically, you wouldn't say that, because many high earners live beyond their means, but if we had special insight into your life and finances, we might say, "That guy has a job he likes right now, but he's using his excess income on the diminishing returns of consumption rather than on financial freedom to weather future life changes." Your job is good right now, but it could suck in no time flat. Your family might go through a crisis, and you could have the flexibility to be there for it. Are you going to wait until it happens to cut the fat? How confident are you that you'll love your job for 30 more years?

arebelspy

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2015, 01:23:04 PM »
Purposeful living is a key part of the Mustachian Volksgeist.

The guy driving to work as described certainly could be Mustachian, but not if he's merely following a script, as matchewed points out, and there's likely waste and areas that could be improved, and ways they could be happier.
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freebeer

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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2015, 11:59:33 AM »
MMM comes across as wanting people to retire only in the context of people asking "Can I retire?"...

Only? Did you even read his tweet that I referenced?

Did you read the SWAMI article yet? It's already been linked once.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/

And then there's the article about the guy who hated early retirement.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/03/23/reader-story-the-man-who-thought-early-retirement-sucked/

MMM clearly thinks it's fine for people to keep working if that's what they want to do. Please acknowledge.

Yes, I did and I guess I could be considered a "Swami". But of course labeling someone who has "FU Money" yet is still working in their chosen profession as "retired" is neither accurate nor helpful. I certainly don't apply that label to myself. But that's just a question of semantics and I understand why MMM uses the term as he does especially given his personal situation which was not just achieving FI and then carrying on.

The original question of my post though was different, it is about how many such professionals, having achieved FI, we should expect to really want to immediately "retire" (actually, not just in their mind, and at least to MMM's level of a major pivot from what they've been doing, even if not to a life of leisure). The Oxford study seemed to suggest that the appeal of that aspect of Mustachianism might perhaps be more limited than some here might think, and I thought that was interesting. Unfortunately this thread degenerated into finger-pointing rather than a discussion of this question.



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Re: "Exploit" vs. Work: The Fatal Flaw in Mustachianism?
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »
The original question of my post though was different, it is about how many such professionals, having achieved FI, we should expect to really want to immediately "retire" (actually, not just in their mind, and at least to MMM's level of a major pivot from what they've been doing, even if not to a life of leisure). The Oxford study seemed to suggest that the appeal of that aspect of Mustachianism might perhaps be more limited than some here might think, and I thought that was interesting. Unfortunately this thread degenerated into finger-pointing rather than a discussion of this question.
Honestly, I think there have been some very detailed responses posted to your two questions in your OP, as well as some discussion about why the conclusions from the Oxford study are not what you portray them to be.  I would suggest that you go back and read some of the carefully constructed counterarguments made by many of the people here.  Certainly not all of them agree with your statements, but the point of debate is to see another viewpoint.  As for that...

You first brought up an "assumption that minimizing the number of years of traditional (salaried / company) work is a generally desirable element of an individual's life course."   Numerous people, many of them senior mMustachians, have said that this is not actually part of their core values, but you've continued down this line of questioning.  It's a bit absurd; in a very real sense you are telling the very people define this lifestyle that they believe something else.

The second point you raised about how personally engaging in a wide variety of useful activities (home remodeling, house cleaning, growing vegetables, etc. ) is more meritorious than trading the monetary fruits of specialized labor for such services was similarily addressed.  The idea that one should pay specialists to do everyday items on the basis that they earn more money per-hour at their jobs has some inherent flaws.  First, it assumes that all the time that you save by hiring someone else will be spent actually working more.  Second, it assumes that the individual gets nothing out of doing these jobs themselves.  For example, it might take 3 hours to learn how to replace a fan belt in your vehicle the first time, but you wind up learning a lot about a car's engine by doing this, you probably wouldn't reduce your working hours to change the fan belt, and you very likely will gain a sense of personal accomplishment after the job is done.  As a bonus, the job will take substantially less time the next time (changing the cost-benefit analysis) and the more you know about cars the easier it will be to prevent and repair future problems (which IMO is the real value of doing something like this).

Does this hold true for every situation?  of course not.  I wouldn't try to do my own dental work (even though there are websites on exactly how to accomplish this), and MMM has written about how he uses a Mexican drywall crew because they simply are so incredible at this specific task.