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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Taxes => UK Tax Discussion => Topic started by: Monkeytennis on July 30, 2017, 02:28:38 AM

Title: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on July 30, 2017, 02:28:38 AM
Net worth number as FIRE number in today's value
Including house value (capital)
Including value of any final salary pension
Excluding state pension
If a couple assume for you jointly?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: shelivesthedream on July 30, 2017, 04:24:08 AM
Hard to work out, as house value will be so hugely variable based on where we are in the country. However, We had been reckoning on £12,000/yr plus house but recent spending tracking makes me think we'll need more. So it now seems like £500,000 - £600,000 plus house for the two of us. It's a long way away!
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: UKMustache on July 30, 2017, 04:37:16 AM
I've put the figure we plan on having in our investment accounts (£500k ish).  This is to see us through from 50 to state retirement age.

In addition we will have about 20 years worth of a career average pension which will start paying out at 65, I've calculated this to be worth about £18k per year at that point.

Oh and 3 properties, all paid off and rented out.  Fourth (the home we live in) might be mortgaged, it might not.  It doesn't make too much difference.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on July 30, 2017, 04:42:26 AM
Hard to work out, as house value will be so hugely variable based on where we are in the country. However, We had been reckoning on £12,000/yr plus house but recent spending tracking makes me think we'll need more. So it now seems like £500,000 - £600,000 plus house for the two of us. It's a long way away!

I think what you're getting at isn't that its hard to work out, rather its perhaps an unfair comparison due to house price differentials in different regions. However many people consider their home in a HCOL area an investment and plan to sell it to move to a LCOL area at point of FIRE / retirement.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on July 30, 2017, 04:50:56 AM
I've put the figure we plan on having in our investment accounts (£500k ish).  This is to see us through from 50 to state retirement age.

In addition we will have about 20 years worth of a career average pension which will start paying out at 65, I've calculated this to be worth about £18k per year at that point.

Oh and 3 properties, all paid off and rented out.  Fourth (the home we live in) might be mortgaged, it might not.  It doesn't make too much difference.

Sounds like a great plan, out of interest have you worked out your net worth? Those career average pensions have to be worth £750k alone. If you have a 500k stash and 4 additional properties I think you must be looking at closer to £2m+ net worth (depending on where you live, the type of properties etc)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on July 30, 2017, 08:30:27 AM
Hard to work out, as house value will be so hugely variable based on where we are in the country. However, We had been reckoning on £12,000/yr plus house but recent spending tracking makes me think we'll need more. So it now seems like £500,000 - £600,000 plus house for the two of us. It's a long way away!

I think what you're getting at isn't that its hard to work out, rather its perhaps an unfair comparison due to house price differentials in different regions. However many people consider their home in a HCOL area an investment and plan to sell it to move to a LCOL area at point of FIRE / retirement.

I also think of my number in terms of £Xk per year plus a paid off house (or a mortgage and assets to keep the mortgage paid). I'm in a pretty LCOL area now, but made a move from a MCOL and I used to count the difference as an asset that would be available for FIRE.

I get a little concerned that I'd struggle to afford to move to many other areas of the country. I moved here (East Anglia) for my SO's work, we don't have many ties to the area and aren't particularly attached to the area so a move is feasible.

My stash will currently cover £9k per year, which is my minimum spending (but with spending values pre-Brex-flation). I'm working on increasing that so that it will cover a more interesting lifestyle.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on July 30, 2017, 09:00:11 AM
NW 850 low end 1M top end.

Liquid portion (i.e outside pension / property) £200k ish.

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: shelivesthedream on July 30, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
Hard to work out, as house value will be so hugely variable based on where we are in the country. However, We had been reckoning on £12,000/yr plus house but recent spending tracking makes me think we'll need more. So it now seems like £500,000 - £600,000 plus house for the two of us. It's a long way away!

I think what you're getting at isn't that its hard to work out, rather its perhaps an unfair comparison due to house price differentials in different regions. However many people consider their home in a HCOL area an investment and plan to sell it to move to a LCOL area at point of FIRE / retirement.

Oh yes, I don't mean that it's hard to work out in principle. Just for our particular stage: we're mid-late twenties, don't currently own any property, and haven't decided where in the country to settle long-term. We're in London for the next three years for my husband's first contract but then the country is our oyster! We don't have any particularly strong ties elsewhere but I think we are planning to get out of the Big Smoke, so until we decide where, how much our future retirement house will cost is a massive spectrum from basically £100k (the arse end of nowhere - not in a bad way!) to £1 million (the nice but not excessive London terraced house my parents live in now)!
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: poppydog on July 31, 2017, 07:29:55 AM
We're retiring next summer, aged 63/60

Total net worth is about £1.64 million, made up of:

a. Defined Benefit pension, when valued at x20 the annual income (and allowing for early take on) worth £600,000
b. House, mortgage paid, worth about £370,000
c. Other DC pensions, SIPPs, ISAs worth around £670,000 - this will be invested in income producing trusts, funds etc., after keeping aside about £55,000 which I'll use to "pay" us the equivalent we'll get from our state pensions until they come on stream.

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: TartanTallulah on July 31, 2017, 10:03:39 AM
I've made a half-educated guess at £750,000 - 1M, but the answer is actually, "The amount that allows our various pots to pay out as much as we need for bare bones + contingencies + things we want to spend money on at all stages of retirement." And I'm still in the process of establishing how much that is in real life rather than on paper. If we can get by on an after-tax income of £2,000 a month (plus a paid-for house) my timescale will work.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: StiffUpperLip on July 31, 2017, 03:15:40 PM
Our number is around 900k including house, higher than I would need alone due to it being Mr's dream to build a house and that's more expensive to do than buy in a lot of cases...

So that would give us a 300k ish for the house and 600k (or approx 24k gross annually at 4%) which is plenty...

I'm also not sure as yet as to whether we'll fully RE or just scale back dramatically once we reach glide point...
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: climbgirl on August 01, 2017, 10:40:17 AM
We haven't worked out an actual number yet as we haven't pinned down exactly what we want to or where we want to be based post-FIRE, so hard to nail down expenses.

We've crunched the numbers though and we think we can hit £900k+ with a paid off house in around 9 years from where we are now, so we should have options to at least change our lives if not fully FIRE.  We'll nail things down and adjust as we go, I guess!
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: londonstache on August 02, 2017, 07:15:46 AM
I'm still early in the FI/RE journey but the 'number' in my head is c. £1m outside of property value, which considers inflating and the fact I'm probably at the moment ~20 years from FI/RE although working to reduce this.

Will be made up of DC pensions and ISAs, with the emphasis heavily on pensions currently as I'm in full staching mode.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on August 02, 2017, 08:10:03 AM
I've made a half-educated guess at £750,000 - 1M, but the answer is actually, "The amount that allows our various pots to pay out as much as we need for bare bones + contingencies + things we want to spend money on at all stages of retirement." And I'm still in the process of establishing how much that is in real life rather than on paper. If we can get by on an after-tax income of £2,000 a month (plus a paid-for house) my timescale will work.

We are now tracking all spending for this very reason.  The numbers are actually a little disappointing TBH.  I was hoping for <£2k a month but its closer to £2.5k.
I have no doubt we can trim quite a bit off that figure but travel and entertainment in retirement will eat it all again so its difficult to work it out exactly.  I think our minimum to pay the bills and sit in the house would be around £1.8k.  One thing that shocked me was food, we spent close to £700 last month on food.  Thats for 2 of us.  We did not eat out either, and had one pizza delivered the rest of the food was home cooked.  Closer analysis will be required!
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on August 02, 2017, 09:10:49 AM
we spent close to £700 last month on food.  Thats for 2 of us.  We did not eat out either, and had one pizza delivered the rest of the food was home cooked.  Closer analysis will be required!

That's something like £23 per day? Maybe it would be cheaper to eat out for every meal :-) ?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: londonstache on August 02, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
we spent close to £700 last month on food.  Thats for 2 of us.  We did not eat out either, and had one pizza delivered the rest of the food was home cooked.  Closer analysis will be required!

That's something like £23 per day? Maybe it would be cheaper to eat out for every meal :-) ?

Wow, that seems high. We net out at around £120-150 per month and I think we have some room for improvement.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: TartanTallulah on August 02, 2017, 09:39:55 AM
I've made a half-educated guess at £750,000 - 1M, but the answer is actually, "The amount that allows our various pots to pay out as much as we need for bare bones + contingencies + things we want to spend money on at all stages of retirement." And I'm still in the process of establishing how much that is in real life rather than on paper. If we can get by on an after-tax income of £2,000 a month (plus a paid-for house) my timescale will work.

We are now tracking all spending for this very reason.  The numbers are actually a little disappointing TBH.  I was hoping for <£2k a month but its closer to £2.5k.
I have no doubt we can trim quite a bit off that figure but travel and entertainment in retirement will eat it all again so its difficult to work it out exactly.  I think our minimum to pay the bills and sit in the house would be around £1.8k.  One thing that shocked me was food, we spent close to £700 last month on food.  Thats for 2 of us.  We did not eat out either, and had one pizza delivered the rest of the food was home cooked.  Closer analysis will be required!

£700 a month for food for two people does sound quite an achievement!

I'm also confident that we won't want to spend any less in early retirement than we do now. There are expenses we have now that we won't have when we're retired, but we'll spend more on other things. At the moment my workload is so time-consuming and tiring that we can't contemplate even going to the local theatre or cinema in the evenings and can only fit in a handful of sporting events a year, and I'll be very disappointed if that situation doesn't improve.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: daverobev on August 02, 2017, 04:22:52 PM
I'm not surprised most are selecting the lowest option.

Healthcare, including dental and vision, is very cheap. Housing can be cheap (and, because of the size of the UK, even if you're 'away' from a city, you can probably still get to one in half an hour or an hour). Food is cheap. You can grow veg.

Public transport can be good (may dictate slightly higher housing cost to be near decent public transport; alternatively, cars themselves and maintenance is cheap, though petrol is not when compared to North America... see distances above, you can generally get from home to a good place to walk for only a few pounds in fuel).

I mean, assuming a frugal life, and you own a sub-100k house... 1k on maintenance, 1k on council tax (I may be out of date on this), much of the money you have inside an ISA and the rest causing you to pay no tax. I'd say 1k a month is plenty. So 300k invested, max.

If there are two of you, more (but not double). If you have children, more, and AFAIK child benefits aren't that much in the UK.

Lots of stuff is free (museums), lots of stuff is close (flights to Europe, ferries to Ireland), lots is cheap (Youth Hostels).
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on August 03, 2017, 01:38:14 PM
Sorry if I set the survey up without low enough limits, very interesting results
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on August 04, 2017, 01:33:05 AM
I'm one of those who has set a fairly high target, but it seems to me that the maximum single person state pension of £122 per week is equivalent to a FIRE amount of about £160k. Someone on state pension would be getting free travel, reduced council tax and other perks, but it shows that there are many people surviving on low amounts.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: SpreadsheetMan on August 04, 2017, 01:57:45 AM
I'm one of those who has set a fairly high target, but it seems to me that the maximum single person state pension of £122 per week is equivalent to a FIRE amount of about £160k. Someone on state pension would be getting free travel, reduced council tax and other perks, but it shows that there are many people surviving on low amounts.

There are. My father lives in a LCOL area on the state pension plus a small occupational pension (approx £200pm). He doesn't spend it all either, so is still saving. He grew up in a time and place where most people were very poor, so he considers himself comfortably off, especially owing a house and driving a small car.

I also set a high target for myself (and DW), but that could be much, much lower and still be workable if I was prepared to make the sacrifices that would involve.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on August 04, 2017, 02:49:01 AM
There are. My father lives in a LCOL area on the state pension plus a small occupational pension (approx £200pm). He doesn't spend it all either, so is still saving. He grew up in a time and place where most people were very poor, so he considers himself comfortably off, especially owing a house and driving a small car.

My parents stopped paid work in their forties. I'm sure they wouldn't call it early retirement, more of a John Seymour style self-sufficiency, which involves spending the past 3 decades working in the garden, and supplementing their savings with plant sales. I suspect their average income and spending over that period has been considerably less than £100 per week. Not for most people though.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: ExitViaTheCashRamp on August 04, 2017, 03:08:21 AM
Maybe 500K. Plan is to retire at 50, live on savings to 58, take 25% of the pension and reinvest most of it (avoiding future tax when drawing), then eventuly get state pension at 70 (my guess for the age I can take it) and exhaust my pension/savings by 90 assuming 2.5% growth over inflation all this time. The OH and I are fairly obese so 90 seems ambitious !

 Ideally supplement savings after retirement with that cash generator known as matched betting :D
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: taylost3 on August 04, 2017, 04:26:00 AM
I'm not surprised most are selecting the lowest option.

Healthcare, including dental and vision, is very cheap. Housing can be cheap (and, because of the size of the UK, even if you're 'away' from a city, you can probably still get to one in half an hour or an hour). Food is cheap. You can grow veg.

Public transport can be good (may dictate slightly higher housing cost to be near decent public transport; alternatively, cars themselves and maintenance is cheap, though petrol is not when compared to North America... see distances above, you can generally get from home to a good place to walk for only a few pounds in fuel).

I mean, assuming a frugal life, and you own a sub-100k house... 1k on maintenance, 1k on council tax (I may be out of date on this), much of the money you have inside an ISA and the rest causing you to pay no tax. I'd say 1k a month is plenty. So 300k invested, max.

If there are two of you, more (but not double). If you have children, more, and AFAIK child benefits aren't that much in the UK.

Lots of stuff is free (museums), lots of stuff is close (flights to Europe, ferries to Ireland), lots is cheap (Youth Hostels).

This is exactly my plan I think 300k will be enough for us. We have a 50k cash buffer slightly more expensive house (200k) currently. Saving 24k per year hope to be FI in under 10 years. If I need more cash we can work part time or supplement with side hustles like matched betting. I'm so so pleased I found this site and have a plan to escape the rat race. I do think we are better off than the US!

I'm also considering renting out our home post FI (about £800-£900 pcm) in addition to the 1k per month and living abroad somewhere developing with a cheap cost of living and nicer weather. That kind of income should allow us to live like Royalty in a developing country.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: RobFIRE on August 04, 2017, 08:52:10 AM
What I have in mind is that if you own your home and have £600k invested to give £2k a month at 4% rule (or equivalent income from property rentals / DB pension etc.) then that should cover general cost of living for a family and reasonable things like two used economical cars and a couple of European holidays a year. I am assuming there would be little tax to pay on that income/fund sales by carefully using income tax and capital gains allowances.

For real luxuries on top of that I would assume some sort of side gig/part time work to cover them, if required.

So I'm fairly clear on those principles.

Then when I think about the cost of a home, that is where the total number can vary so much. The same family-sized house could be £200k in one area or £1m in the SE (and £2m near central London). No ideas about that one other than not really wanting to work x years longer to earn £100ks extra just due to house prices...
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Wanttobehome on August 28, 2017, 09:19:31 AM
Defined benefit pension £816,627
House £140,000
ISA £85,000
Shares ISA £11,525
Premium bonds £2,300

Grand total

£1,055,452

That's the first time I have added that all up, do not usually include DC pension in net worth

This gives me  £19,600 a year tax free ~ £1625 a month

I am hoping to save more in the shares ISA before I retire
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: May2030 on August 28, 2017, 08:32:02 PM
Defined benefit pension £816,627
House £140,000
ISA £85,000
Shares ISA £11,525
Premium bonds £2,300

Grand total

£1,055,452


That's the first time I have added that all up, do not usually include DC pension in net worth

This gives me  £19,600 a year tax free ~ £1625 a month

I am hoping to save more in the shares ISA before I retire

Maybe as silly question but is that all the income you expect to get from your stash or just the tax free part? ( ignoring the house value)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: UKMustache on August 29, 2017, 02:05:33 AM
I've put the figure we plan on having in our investment accounts (£500k ish).  This is to see us through from 50 to state retirement age.

In addition we will have about 20 years worth of a career average pension which will start paying out at 65, I've calculated this to be worth about £18k per year at that point.

Oh and 3 properties, all paid off and rented out.  Fourth (the home we live in) might be mortgaged, it might not.  It doesn't make too much difference.

Sounds like a great plan, out of interest have you worked out your net worth? Those career average pensions have to be worth £750k alone. If you have a 500k stash and 4 additional properties I think you must be looking at closer to £2m+ net worth (depending on where you live, the type of properties etc)

I have absolutely no idea how to value the pension, I literally wouldn't even know where to start!

I can see you've bulked the OP out since I replied and I didn't really answer your question first time around. 

Assuming the career average pension @ £750k (I'll take your word for it)
4 properties @ £1mil
ISA's @ £500k.

Total = £2.2mil

My wife is incredibly risk averse though, I have no doubt that we will end up with a lot more money than we need (particularly once the pension starts paying out).
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: FI4good on September 03, 2017, 07:22:11 AM
I think about 500k would be more than i need.

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: RetirementInvestingToday on September 24, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
I called FI at a little over £1M.  Will RE in the summer of 2018 where if Mr Market performs to average I should RE with about £1.4M.  Don't need the money as my current £1.2M has me on a WR of a little less than 2.5% but want to see how Brexit negotiations are playing out before I pick my RE Med country.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: shanghaiMMM on September 24, 2017, 10:44:09 PM
I'm not 100% sure what my UK expenses will be as I currently live in Shanghai. I hope to return to the UK in the next few years and reassess the situation.

However, as one poster above mentioned, if you have a paid off house and 300k invested, that would give you 1,000 a month roughly. I think that would make you FI, and any luxuries on top of that would be paid for with casual or part-time work.

That's my rough plan anyway, so depending on the cost of a house, the total number would be around 400-500k I guess.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on September 25, 2017, 04:56:58 AM
we spent close to £700 last month on food.  Thats for 2 of us.  We did not eat out either, and had one pizza delivered the rest of the food was home cooked.  Closer analysis will be required!

That's something like £23 per day? Maybe it would be cheaper to eat out for every meal :-) ?

Wow, that seems high. We net out at around £120-150 per month and I think we have some room for improvement.

So I did look over the numbers and we also ran a similar tracking sheet for August and September.  Food is more like £350 a month.  I was just taking into consideration all money that was in the "shopping" column..

This month will be closer to £400 but we have eaten out a couple of times.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: FI4good on September 26, 2017, 09:55:15 AM
I'm not 100% sure what my UK expenses will be as I currently live in Shanghai. I hope to return to the UK in the next few years and reassess the situation.

However, as one poster above mentioned, if you have a paid off house and 300k invested, that would give you 1,000 a month roughly. I think that would make you FI, and any luxuries on top of that would be paid for with casual or part-time work.

That's my rough plan anyway, so depending on the cost of a house, the total number would be around 400-500k I guess.

Those are my kind of figures Shanghai ,

 My household costs, power, water, council tax, internet and so on works out on average at about £350 a month depending on weather (excluding rent) not being completely miserly with heat but not going mad either .
The 650 a month left i'd find acceptable fired , i spend about £95 a week for food, entertainment, the odd computer game including about £1000 a year for car running costs .
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on September 27, 2017, 03:41:29 AM
I am closer to £500 a month base housing cost, includes utils, CT, phone / web, insurance etc.
The council tax is a killer over £200.  We also have a monthly charge for estate management of £30 ish.

From my trackers £2000 a month would be enough for basic living in our current property including 1 car and some light entertainments.
My goal is for as near to £3000 as possible, if we get close then we will FIRE.  Our current passive income is IRO £1k a month so some way to go.
If it looks like time is getting away from us then might consider semi FIRE.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: RobFIRE on October 01, 2017, 09:08:30 AM
I have in mind that a couple/family should be able to live comfortably on £2k a month with accommodation paid for (e.g. own your house). By comfortably I mean with used cars, some European holidays, entertainment and contingency etc. but not eating out all the time, regular big holidays/new cars. Probably £1k a month would be fine to cover basic living costs, but I think for me being fully FIRE does mean covering more than the basics and having a decent margin.

So £600k would provide £2k a month at 4% SWR. Housing could of course have an additional capital cost from £100k to £2m depending on where you are in the country and what you consider a reasonably sized place to be.

What it shows to me is that housing cost and hence location becomes the major factor in terms of £ needed.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on October 01, 2017, 10:43:10 AM
Which is why a lot of people move from London out to places like Wales, Scotland or Devon.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on October 02, 2017, 02:41:59 AM
Probably £1k a month would be fine to cover basic living costs, but I think for me being fully FIRE does mean covering more than the basics and having a decent margin.
...

What it shows to me is that housing cost and hence location becomes the major factor in terms of £ needed.

I've found it interesting as I moved away from the South East how much my cost of living has reduced. £1k/mo gives me a delightful life. I agree that having a margin or buffer is important.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: TartanTallulah on October 02, 2017, 03:40:35 AM
I have in mind that a couple/family should be able to live comfortably on £2k a month with accommodation paid for (e.g. own your house). By comfortably I mean with used cars, some European holidays, entertainment and contingency etc. but not eating out all the time, regular big holidays/new cars. Probably £1k a month would be fine to cover basic living costs, but I think for me being fully FIRE does mean covering more than the basics and having a decent margin.


That's what we're working on. The area is LCOL apart from the need to be able to drive if we want to go anywhere. £1,500 a month comfortably covers household bills and food for three adults (one currently financially dependent, although they'll contribute when they've got an income) and running two economical cars. An additional £500 a month will make life more pleasant. I have a separate fund to cover contingencies like the roof needing replaced. Since living expenses are fairly static, everything extra goes into the Having Fun Fund, which is an incentive to me to make the most of my income now.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on October 08, 2017, 08:00:55 AM
See if we taking a paid off place to live as a given, I'm not sure London is more expensive than the regions.

There is much more free entertainment, free museums, and free events than on other places. You don't need a car, public transport is fairly priced.

Sure, if you were spendy that is loads more temptation, but if you have spending under control?

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on October 09, 2017, 05:00:21 AM
See if we taking a paid off place to live as a given, I'm not sure London is more expensive than the regions.

There is much more free entertainment, free museums, and free events than on other places. You don't need a car, public transport is fairly priced.

Sure, if you were spendy that is loads more temptation, but if you have spending under control?

Maybe what I found was that it was easier to make a load of changes at once. The spreadsheet doesn't lie but my interpretation may do.

I find that even doing free things out in London, I always seem to spend something: I end up in a bar or cafe (obviously this can be avoided, but I tend not to as the alternative is going to be an inconvenience for people that I want to spend time with), and while public transport is excellent and cheap, it isn't free. Since the move, I'll go to someone's house within cycling distance rather than out to meet people. I have many more days where I spend nothing at all in my smaller LCOL town than I had in a bigger, HCOL city.

My council tax also dropped significantly for me going from a HCOL to LCOL area, even though I moved to a much bigger home. This accounts for a big chunk of my spending, and is difficult to reduce. Even apart from the cost of the home, the council tax on a similarly sized property in my old HCOL area would have been prohibitive for me.

Happy to hear that other people's experiences are different to mine.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on October 09, 2017, 06:09:30 AM
See if we taking a paid off place to live as a given, I'm not sure London is more expensive than the regions.

There is much more free entertainment, free museums, and free events than on other places. You don't need a car, public transport is fairly priced.

Things which are heavily taxpayer funded (transport, museums) are clearly OK. Things where the bulk of the cost is incurred elsewhere or where there is national pricing are OK (e.g. anything you buy from Amazon.) The big difference in cost is on stuff which is priced locally. It has to be more expensive because the business overhead of property costs is much higher and wages are higher. Compare the cost of a plumber or electrician in London with elsewhere, as an example.  How much of a difference it works out to be overall will obviously vary person to person. The real difference is, of course, the cost of obtaining the "paid off place."
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on October 09, 2017, 06:49:04 AM
Yeah house prices are around £150/sq ft here as a base price.
Move to somewhere regionally a bit nicer and that might click over £300.
Move to London and its £600+.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on October 09, 2017, 01:34:21 PM
Yeah, it's at least double the cost in London....I've been pondering my ideal FIRE location a lot lately, and I really can't decide...I'm going to try a bit of being nomadic, but then will I be drawn to return to the UK? And if so where?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on October 10, 2017, 04:35:49 AM
I think North Wales or the North East are good options price wise and to be a bit "off grid".

I would like to retire around the Oxford area but its not cheap compared to where I am now.

Maybe Devon.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on October 10, 2017, 05:03:28 AM
Yeah, it's at least double the cost in London....I've been pondering my ideal FIRE location a lot lately, and I really can't decide...I'm going to try a bit of being nomadic, but then will I be drawn to return to the UK? And if so where?

I suspect that after being nomadic, you'll have a clear idea about what you miss about the UK, so you can focus your FIRE location on areas that meet that need.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on October 13, 2017, 06:48:30 AM
Yeah, it's at least double the cost in London....I've been pondering my ideal FIRE location a lot lately, and I really can't decide...I'm going to try a bit of being nomadic, but then will I be drawn to return to the UK? And if so where?

I suspect that after being nomadic, you'll have a clear idea about what you miss about the UK, so you can focus your FIRE location on areas that meet that need.


Exactly - I'm not sure now, but when I get there I'm sure I'll have stronger opinions.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: itimjim on October 21, 2017, 06:09:42 PM
Background: Couple (40yrs), 1 child.

Total FIRE: £1.34m @ 52 yrs
Workplace DC Pensions: £470k
SIPP: £300k
S&S ISA: £220k
Cash ISA: £90k
2nd Property BTL: £260k

FIRE location: Boat/campervan/current location (NW England)

Excluded 1st property, as no intention to sell.

I've assumed 6.5% avg growth on investments (exc property), 2.5% avg inflation.

Plan is to have approx £40k/yr (after tax) in today's money by drawing down 5% at 52, gradually increasing to 6.5% by state pension age, and then a 4% long term drawdown. I'm hoping this leaves an equivalent income for child once we're no longer around.

Current cost of living (excluding mortgages) for the family is around £34k (after tax) - which I think gives us a very nice lifestyle without going nuts.

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on October 22, 2017, 12:48:03 AM
Current cost of living (excluding mortgages) for the family is around £34k (after tax) - which I think gives us a very nice lifestyle without going nuts.

It is a truth near-universally acknowledged that no-one thinks their own spending is nuts.

Could you post a high level breakdown of your spending please? I have no idea how I'd go about spending that much without developing a severe cocaine habit. Are there childcare costs? I'm not wanting to tell you that you need to cut spending, but genuinely interested in what that looks like.

Anyone else spending more than £2k/mo after housing feel free to join in.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: itimjim on October 22, 2017, 03:44:41 AM
Could you post a high level breakdown of your spending please?

Sure. Interesting discussion.

Fixed Costs Total   22253

Home         3200      - Home maintenance plus improvement
Utilities         2836      - Council Tax, TV Lic, Water, Gas/Electric
Insurance         3160      - Home, Pet
Subsistance      5400      - Monthly groceries
Work Expenses      1200      - Non-reimbursable work expenses
Motoring         2280      - 2x Cars, insurance, road tax, maintenance, breakdown, fuel (car1 = 7,000/yr, car2 = 2000/year)
Health         1740      - Contact lenses, private consultant for long term issue
Clothing/Grooming   1560      - Hair cuts/clothes (for 3)
Comms/Mobiles      876      - 1 x mob (mine through work), 1x mobile broadband, 1x home broadband.

Lifestyle Total   11841

Giving         2760      - Presents for child, parents, family, friends, charitable donations
Misc            1320      - Random stuff, vet bills
Leisure/Ent      2202      - Movies/Theatre/Gigs, Amazon Prime, Netflix, Books, National Trust, 2x gym membership, some tech services (OneDrive, Adobe)
Holidays         3000      - 2x holidays per year and a sometimes the odd city break/London visit
Expendable      2559      - General expendable cash, typically goes on technology refreshes/gadgets

Grand Total      34094

Granted, this does afford us, as I said, what I consider a very pleasant lifestyle, but not lavish (to some it might!). I avoid big houses, expensive cars and ridiculous holidays.

I've deducted the mortgage (£8k/yr) and childcare (£1.2k/yr) from my living costs, as those won't be around at FIRE. Although arguably I might be funding some of university at the time. Although I do have JISA for my daughter (£45/month, incrementing £5/month through 18) which should be around £20k at maturity. Plus she has a J-SIPP (£150/month) that I pay into until she's 18 too.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on October 22, 2017, 05:43:35 AM
Thanks, Itimjim.

That's really interesting, our utilities and car costs are similar, your grocery and insurance costs are a lot higher than mine (no children, no pets). My work expenses are higher and health is lower so that sort of balances out.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on October 22, 2017, 06:02:25 AM
I went for £750k to £1M. Enough to cover about £22k of expenses a year and a paid for house.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: edgema on October 25, 2017, 02:18:07 AM
One hand up as a family who have moved from London (ish) to Devon for a cost of living boost. All part of the plan to set up for FIRE as we got to sell and expensive house in a VHCOL and put a large chunk of this into investments.

Our number is at the high end versus most on here with FIRE on invested assets of about £2m. Fully aware that I am guilty of quite a bit of 'hedonic adaptation', although far less than most of our old friendship group caught in the commuter London 'white range rover' trap. However, I am super cautious and in a career I will not be able to continue in Devon or probably even come back to should FIRE not work out. We also have two young children who are expensive little tykes.

My date looking highly likely for next march, although I will assess at that point whether to fall for the 'one more year' syndrome. As others have commented, the late stage just before FIRE is an amazing one as you are probably at or near peak earning, yet you have put together investments which you are very nearly already able to live off, providing you with effectively another income. As such, another year of saving as you were + another income puts a 'lifetime best' into the pot and further insurance against whatever future life might throw at you.

If I do I won't beat myself up about it as it means retiring at 42 rather than 41 which is beyond the comprehension of most people who have not discovered this community.

It is also higher as I cannot quite see how people do all this travel so inexpensively in the FI community. The things I want to do with my family once I FIRE are just not cheap. To name a few, I want to RV around the US, sail in the Med, motorbike around South Aftrica (not with the family that one) and other such adventures which are just not cheap. Also, my Dad lives in the US and family flights to see him are c£2k at the best of times. All these budgets with people living off £20k a year seem very unreachable when I know I want to spend sometimes half that a year (not every year) on travel alone. Incredible respect for those that do.







 
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: bownyboy on October 27, 2017, 01:17:33 AM
Weíre currently at £440k with £79k remaining on mortgage. Target is to have £600k in investments for a £2k a month withdrawal.

Plan is to finish doing up the house and then look at getting consent to let as round here a typically 3 bed semi can rent for £2k to £2.5k per month.

We will then move on a LCOL area near the sea like Devon, Cornwal where you can easily rent a 3 bed house for £1k a month.

Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Moiser on November 04, 2017, 01:00:45 AM
Interesting post!

My current plan is to create a reasonable passive income from rental properties and other investments.

In my current situation (31 and single) I'd probably have a go at throwing it all in with a passive income of anything more than £3k a month.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on November 05, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
That would do me nicely.  Just a case of trying to get there as quickly as possible.  As it stands right now I hope to get there in about 3-4 years.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: PhilB on November 23, 2017, 11:27:55 AM
My numbers are a bit embarrassingly high - we should be going into FIRE in 2019 with a little over £2M, including a £600k paid off house.  I freely admit that this is excessive.  Our kids are currently 12 and 14 so that includes their running costs for a few years including Uni and help with house deposits.  Over the period between 10 and 14 years after we retire we have about £20k pa of DB schemes coming on line and 2 SPs of £8.3k and realistically that should be plenty when there are just the 2 of us (it would just about cover what we spend now as a family of 4) , but my basic thinking re budgets is:
-£1k per month for bills (should be plenty)
-£1k per month for living expenses (again generous)
-£1k per month for having fun (lots of holidays)
-£1k per month just in case (and now I'm getting frankly ridiculous)
I would have had the first 3 in place if I'd gone at 50 but as we are in the snowball phase it seemed worthwhile to do 3 extra years to get that fourth £1k per month.  I really can't see me spending it - other than during the years when the kids are at Uni - but it should make the other £3k absolutely bomb proof and stop me from fretting.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on November 23, 2017, 11:59:09 AM
Crumbs you should be ok there PhilB, congrats! Can I ask what the difference is between bills and living expenses?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: PhilB on November 23, 2017, 02:39:48 PM
They are very rough and ready categories, but in my mind 'Bills' is recurring things like council tax, home maintenance, insurance, utilities, MOT's, servicing, etc..  Basically fixed costs that don't change much whatever I actually do.  Living expenses is food and drink, other groceries, petrol, children's activities and all the other items that keep turning up on the credit card statement.  It's not an exact science by any means - just a way of persuading myself that I have enough and don't need to worry.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: worms on November 29, 2017, 12:50:07 AM
Interesting thread.  I live a modest life with few luxuries, but reckon the sum is £850k not counting house value. It is often said that the 4% drawdown ďruleĒ is over ambitious for UK, so my planning is based on a 3% figure.

Some of the cost estimates above seem really low to me and I would be wary of pinning too much hope of cost reductions by moving out to the quaintly termed ďarse endĒ.  Living and working in such an area, it is noticeable that although houses are cheaper to buy, non-mortgage housing costs are possibly not much lower.  While insurance should be lower this is more than offset by much higher heating costs if you are not on the gas grid and donít live in balmy southern climes.  Electricity costs are higher too, as (without gas) you canít get a dual-fuel tariff.  Motoring costs are also much higher, due to the combination of greater car dependency, much higher annual mileages and higher fuel prices.

For comparison with the figures given above, my mortgage-free housing costs (not including maintenance or improvement) are about £5,800 and my total car costs including depreciation are also about £5,800 (£4,600 excluding depreciation).  So these two items alone require somewhere between £290k and £387k in FIRE sum.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on November 29, 2017, 01:50:34 AM
Interesting thread.  I live a modest life with few luxuries, but reckon the sum is £850k not counting house value. It is often said that the 4% drawdown ďruleĒ is over ambitious for UK, so my planning is based on a 3% figure.

I question this assertion every time it's posted. There's no compelling reason to invest your money in the UK rather than the whole world, so, other than currency risk, why would the drawdown rate be different here?

Quote
For comparison with the figures given above, my mortgage-free housing costs (not including maintenance or improvement) are about £5,800 and my total car costs including depreciation are also about £5,800 (£4,600 excluding depreciation).  So these two items alone require somewhere between £290k and £387k in FIRE sum.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Both those figures seem high to me and we live in a stupidly large house in a rural area. What housing costs are you including if you exclude maintenance & improvement - insurance, council tax, electricity, water, what else?

What sort of mileage are you doing to spend that amount per year on transport? I drive about 10 000 miles per year currently and a quick check of the spreadsheet says the cost of petrol + insurance + tax + maintenance comes to less than £4k for 3 years of driving.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: worms on November 29, 2017, 02:27:05 AM
You may be correct about the 4% versus 3% question, but I am quite conservative in my approach to financial projections.  I am not necessarily qualified to enter the debate on what is a reasonable rate to plan on, but since there is a debate on it amongst those more knowledgeable than me, I will ďhope for the best, plan for the worstĒ.

My house is a wee three-bed rural cottage about 150 years old.  Rural means different things To different people.  I would not class this place as remote - about ten miles to the nearest shop. But I am possibly 5 degrees of latitude north of you and that probably makes a difference to heating costs.  I appreciate that Cambridge-shire can be cold, but your heating season is possibly shorter.  House costs are: Council tax, £2150; Electricity £996; oil £2100; insurance £550.

Car costs are for 24,000 miles.  That will fall once retired, but I am not betting on it being less than 18,000.  Costs for budget purposes are: tax £200; insurance £400; servicing £800; depreciation £1200; fuel £3,200 (roughly 40mpg at £1.20/litre).
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on November 29, 2017, 03:55:30 AM
I would not class this place as remote - about ten miles to the nearest shop.

Can't be many (if any) places in England that are 10 miles from a shop? Perhaps also true for Norn Ireland and maybe even Wales? So I think most people would class that as remote. My parents live about 3 miles walk to a bus stop to catch a bus that travels 3 miles into a place with a shop and doctors and I suspect that's about as isolated as it gets in England. Possibly there are farmhouses in the Forest of Bowland or Northumberland that would be 10 miles, but I reckon even in the national parks you'd struggle to find somewhere. I think 7 miles is the furthest you can get from a road on land in England, but not many people live in the middle of Kielder Forest.

Quote
I appreciate that Cambridge-shire can be cold, but your heating season is possibly shorter.

Think I have posted elsewhere that there have been days in June, July & August in previous years when my wife has had the heating on. But yes, people I know with oil heating round here are not spending anything like £2k per year. Delivery costs are quite a factor with heating oil, so I suspect your location comes into play there too.

Quote
fuel £3,200 (roughly 40mpg at £1.20/litre).

I guess that's the part I wasn't getting - you're driving more than 3 times the average amount, not surprising that you're spending more than 3 times as much (Govt reckons the average car does 7800 miles per year.) No scope for a more fuel efficient vehicle?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: shelivesthedream on November 29, 2017, 10:35:17 AM
Quote
not many people live in the middle of Kielder forest

I think my uncle did for a while. He was something to do with red squirrel conservation. Slightly odd man, but one of those people who really seems to have done his life right in doing whatever the heck he wanted. Worked in outdoor/conservationy things and then retired and now watches birds at home and goes on outdoorsy holidays all over the world. Went trekking in the lower Himalayas at 70. He's had his fair share of troubles (multiple divorces) but I can't help but admire his general life pattern.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on November 29, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
You don't have to buy a shack in the middle of nowhere to get a cheap FIRE property.  Massive swathes of the north of England are very cheap and you can still get access to good services, entertainment, hospitals etc. 
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on November 29, 2017, 12:37:18 PM
Quote
not many people live in the middle of Kielder forest

I think my uncle did for a while. He was something to do with red squirrel conservation. Slightly odd man, but one of those people who really seems to have done his life right in doing whatever the heck he wanted. Worked in outdoor/conservationy things and then retired and now watches birds at home and goes on outdoorsy holidays all over the world. Went trekking in the lower Himalayas at 70. He's had his fair share of troubles (multiple divorces) but I can't help but admire his general life pattern.

Me too, I always admire these people who know what they want, and make it happen, even if the rest of the world thinks they are a bit mad. Hell I aspire to be one of these people.



I would not class this place as remote - about ten miles to the nearest shop.

Can't be many (if any) places in England that are 10 miles from a shop? Perhaps also true for Norn Ireland and maybe even Wales? So I think most people would class that as remote. My parents live about 3 miles walk to a bus stop to catch a bus that travels 3 miles into a place with a shop and doctors and I suspect that's about as isolated as it gets in England. Possibly there are farmhouses in the Forest of Bowland or Northumberland that would be 10 miles, but I reckon even in the national parks you'd struggle to find somewhere. I think 7 miles is the furthest you can get from a road on land in England, but not many people live in the middle of Kielder Forest.

Quote
I appreciate that Cambridge-shire can be cold, but your heating season is possibly shorter.

Think I have posted elsewhere that there have been days in June, July & August in previous years when my wife has had the heating on. But yes, people I know with oil heating round here are not spending anything like £2k per year. Delivery costs are quite a factor with heating oil, so I suspect your location comes into play there too.


Yeah, I'd call my mum's place remote, it's probably about 5 miles to the nearest shop by road (much less as the crow flies).

And those car costs are high, I've always maintained living in London is actually reasonable if you have housing taken care of...... and public transport is reliable and reasonably priced.

And the oil....what temperature are you heating the house to?
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on November 29, 2017, 01:36:27 PM
My wife and I do about 7000 miles PA combined!
Car costs in my FIRE budget is £2400 PA. Just an estimate at this stage but hopefully not that far off.


Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Chuck Ditallin on November 29, 2017, 03:53:37 PM
In case it's of any use to anyone using heating oil...

...either find a local bulk buying group for discounts or...

...fueltool.co.uk will give you a price comparison (no affiliation, just a satisfied customer; their delivery times have been quicker than stated too)

We go through about £1000 a year for rural 3 bedroomed 100 y.o. cottage, though we have underfloor heating which gives excellent bang for buck (but it's expensive to fit unless you have to have the floors up anyway, as we did)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: worms on November 29, 2017, 11:47:20 PM
Sorry to spoil peopleís image of me living in a hut in the forest or on top of a mountain!  My house is in the middle of a village with a couple of hundred other folk and on the Scottish Governmentís Urban/Rural classification we are ďaccessible ruralĒ.  Ten miles from village to Village is quite common here and is perhaps the natural historic settlement pattern - a morningís walk from one place to the next.  In common with most parts of the country, village shops are closing at an alarming rate, leaving many villages with no retail outlet and a concentration in the larger settlements. So ten miles to the shop is not that unusual.

Household energy costs are higher for a number of reasons around here, and average annual costs per household are said to be £1,000 a year higher than the average further south - that figure would probably work for me. 50% of Highland households are estimated to be in fuel poverty (defined as spending more than 10% of income on heating costs).  I am one of the lucky ones that is nowhere near the fuel poverty level.  The house could be better insulated and is certainly not kept at the warmer end of the scale!

Iíve not been on a plane for a number of years and my 24,000 miles includes holidays, so I have a transfer of costs that others might have in a different category in their budgeting.

Please donít think I am in any way complaining about the costs, I am simply making sure that I plan and budget realistically.  In some of our communities, about a third of the population is made up of people retiring and down-sizing from the south - some of these may have made a mistake by having unrealistic expectations of the costs, and once you have down-sized itís difficult to move back!
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: The Cardinal on November 30, 2017, 07:26:02 AM
I'm looking to have £460k in today's terms by the time I'm 50.  I'm currently 37 with a decent start on that sum and the end of the mortgage within sight. 

£460k is the sum I calculate is needed to cover the 10 years from 2030-40 (when my first pension starts) and then partially from 2040-48 (when my second and state pensions start).  £610k is the sum I'd need were I to aim for age 45. 

I've assumed 3% inflation and no job promotions.  If there are any upsides in the intervening years, I will aim to bring forward the date. 
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: PhilB on December 01, 2017, 03:22:15 AM
The house could be better insulated...
I was going to ask about that as even with your climate and higher oil costs that seems a crazy amount.  Upping the insulation, if possible, could have a really big return on investment.  When we rebuilt our house we greatly improved the insulation and the impact on our running costs was dramatic.  They've dropped even lower since I put a wood burner in to provide most of our daytime heating ;0)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on December 01, 2017, 04:18:07 AM

Please donít think I am in any way complaining about the costs, I am simply making sure that I plan and budget realistically.  In some of our communities, about a third of the population is made up of people retiring and down-sizing from the south - some of these may have made a mistake by having unrealistic expectations of the costs, and once you have down-sized itís difficult to move back!

Interesting post, thank you. Hadn't really appreciated that there were reasonable numbers of English retirees in the highlands. Highlands, Orkney, Western Isles often feature in those "happiest places in Britain" lists - hardly the image of the dour Scot :-)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: shelivesthedream on December 01, 2017, 08:04:13 AM
I'm really excited to hear that some of the UK forum members are within sight of their goal. I'll be so interested to hear how it works out for them post-FIRE - both in financial/logistical terms and in emotional/mental terms. I know FIRE is FIRE whatever side of the Atlantic you're on, but it seems like there must be some differences.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: PhilB on December 01, 2017, 08:54:38 AM
I'm really excited to hear that some of the UK forum members are within sight of their goal. I'll be so interested to hear how it works out for them post-FIRE - both in financial/logistical terms and in emotional/mental terms. I know FIRE is FIRE whatever side of the Atlantic you're on, but it seems like there must be some differences.
I don't think there's any doubt that the biggest difference is the NHS and the fact that UK retirees don't need to factor in colossal sums for health insurance.  I have a chronic condition and used to hang out on a US forum for people with the same disease.  Most US people were more worried about how on earth they would be able to afford the drugs than they were about the prospect of dying if the drugs didn't work.  A lot of Brits are unaware just how lucky we are to have it and I'd say it more than offsets our higher house prices.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: poppydog on December 03, 2017, 08:08:39 AM
I agree completely about the good old NHS being a major boon to us here in the UK.  Some of the stories your hear or read about from the USA are terrifying - people's insurance not being enough to cover the treatment they need and the like.  Our system may creak at the the edges a bit, bit it's always there if you really need it. 

Another difference possibly is that our state pension is pretty much guaranteed, as long as you have enough National Insurance contributions years.  The US social security system - which I don't pretend to understand - seems more variable.

I've also read quite a lot of threads where our American friends talk about selling up in retirement to move to a lower cost of living area, often another state or across the country somewhere.  We often talk about downsizing, but we usually mean selling our family houses and buying something smaller and cheaper relatively locally I think. 

(Mrs PD and I, btw, are planning to retire next April!)
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Manchester on December 04, 2017, 04:58:00 AM
I think £900,000 should be more than enough for me.  That would give me £27,000/£36,000 per year. 
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Rinch on December 04, 2017, 07:59:57 AM
I've put 750-1m (for a couple) but I've never made a serious attempt to estimate this because cost of living is so dependent on where I end up. Currently living in Switzerland though intending to come back to the UK at some point (probably). Don't think I could afford to retire in Switzerland much before normal retirement age but it's a long way off so not given it much thought.

Currently net worth is about 420k (again couple) so probably not worth worrying about it for a good few years. I'm 34 at the moment. My plan is to keep my head down save as much as possible and see where I've got to at 40 and come up with a plan then.

Agreed on the NHS making a massive difference. Here we pay a total of 550 GBP a month just for the lowest level of health insurance. It's our single largest expense after rent. And that only covers 90% of the final cost of treatment so if you have very expensive care you could still see life changing costs.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on December 04, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
Yeah the healthcare difference would appear to be the largest I can see from my time on the boards. Out of interest though does anyone have private healthcare as a consideration as part of their FIRE amount? I donít myself.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: RetirementInvestingToday on December 04, 2017, 02:36:39 PM
Yeah the healthcare difference would appear to be the largest I can see from my time on the boards. Out of interest though does anyone have private healthcare as a consideration as part of their FIRE amount? I donít myself.
We're going to move from the UK to the Med as part of my FIRE.  Still deciding on Spain or Cyprus.  In Spain we'll have to be private for the first year and then we can decide whether to voluntarily pay into the State System or stay with private.  In Cyprus we'll have to be private for a loooong time (providing Brexit doesn't further mess it up making it forever).  That said Cyprus is working on a type of NHS which under current proposals would let us pay into the State System once we became a Permanent Residents.

So yes, private healthcare is very much a consideration in this household.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: PhilB on December 05, 2017, 03:04:55 AM
I find the whole private health insurance question very tricky to get my head around.  I currently get it for 'free' through my employer, although pay about £1kin tax and NI on that.  I don't plan to continue with it in retirement and so part of me feels that I really should opt out now to save that £1k, but somehow I can't bring myself to do so.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on December 05, 2017, 10:10:38 AM
RIT - yes I can see if youíre not going to live in the UK then itís very much a factor. Iím sure if you are as thorough as you are on your website, youíll have the best approach tied down.

PhilB - yes this is my situation too. The fact that I canít bring myself to opt out is what is making me think should I be doing anything to factor this in for post FIRE.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: TartanTallulah on December 08, 2017, 09:46:11 PM
Out of interest though does anyone have private healthcare as a consideration as part of their FIRE amount? I donít myself.

I do. Not private health insurance, but the "contingencies" section of my retirement planning includes being able to self-fund cataract surgery and joint replacements if NHS provision is scaled back as threatened, as well as dental implants, of which my husband has already needed one.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on December 09, 2017, 12:42:30 AM
Out of interest though does anyone have private healthcare as a consideration as part of their FIRE amount? I donít myself.

I do. Not private health insurance, but the "contingencies" section of my retirement planning includes being able to self-fund cataract surgery and joint replacements if NHS provision is scaled back as threatened, as well as dental implants, of which my husband has already needed one.

This is similar to me. At my stage of life and health private health insurance seems poor value for money. I looked into my work policy (sounds similar to @PhilB and @never give up), and I could get cover for less than the tax and NI I'd pay for the "free" cover. I wouldn't spend the money on health insurance if it wasn't the default, so I opted out of it.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on December 09, 2017, 12:56:48 AM
I love how thorough you are with everything Playing. You really set a great example for doing proper research and making good decisions.

Over 12% of votes on the poll that started this thread have target numbers of over £2m. That seemed like a lot to me and therefore I wondered if health care considerations were part of the number.

We are very lucky to have the NHS but I do wonder if TartanTallulah and Playing have it right here, and an allocation of some funds to cover some self funding of treatments may be a sensible way forward.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on December 10, 2017, 04:18:22 AM

Over 12% of votes on the poll that started this thread have target numbers of over £2m. That seemed like a lot to me and therefore I wondered if health care considerations were part of the number.


Not specifically, but I do worry about social care in old age, so have planned and budgeted for that, also I donít expect there to be a state pension in 30 years time so Iím planning for a higher net worth to protect against that
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on December 10, 2017, 09:57:31 AM
Thatís interesting Monkeytennis. Is it ok to ask how you have budgeted for social care? I.e. what calculations and thoughts went into this. I wouldnít have thought it was easy to arrive at a number.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: Monkeytennis on December 10, 2017, 03:35:37 PM
Thatís interesting Monkeytennis. Is it ok to ask how you have budgeted for social care? I.e. what calculations and thoughts went into this. I wouldnít have thought it was easy to arrive at a number.

Totally not in a scientific way, my dad has the same number budgeted for his or my mums social care costs, so Iíve allocated the same which is based on a worst case scenario of each (my wife and I) needing 5 years of social and nursing care but not wanting to sell their home (as the other person may be in it and still incurring costs).
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: never give up on December 10, 2017, 09:26:01 PM
I see. Thatís interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: poppydog on December 14, 2017, 04:40:08 AM
Out of interest though does anyone have private healthcare as a consideration as part of their FIRE amount? I donít myself.

I do. Not private health insurance, but the "contingencies" section of my retirement planning includes being able to self-fund cataract surgery and joint replacements if NHS provision is scaled back as threatened, as well as dental implants, of which my husband has already needed one.

OMG - dental implants!  Both me and Mrs PD have been through this. Now I know why you never see a poor dentist!

As for private medical insurance, I have it currently via my employer, but when I retire next year I will lose it. Iíve looked into the cost of continuing it but itís very expensive and so will self-insure if needed for more minor stuff, and trust to the NHS for major treatment.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: cerat0n1a on December 14, 2017, 05:30:57 AM
OMG - dental implants!  Both me and Mrs PD have been through this. Now I know why you never see a poor dentist!

I'm in the middle of this at the moment - five figure amount - seriously considered going to Eastern Europe to have it done. All stemming from being hit by a car while crossing the road nearly 30 years ago. My employer is contributing nearly half of the cost. The dentist is classic Mr. Spendypants, he's had a different rolex every time I have seen him, marble & fountains in the waiting room.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: BookLoverL on January 13, 2018, 09:06:48 AM
I haven't calculated the specific amount yet, since my currently variable and unknown income makes it hard to estimate how many years I'll need to fund. Still:

I'm in the north, so I expect that when I'm ready, I should be able to get a house in a not-terrible area for somewhere between £100,000 and £300,000. Maybe £400,000 if I'm really being picky.

Right now, my yearly costs are below £5000, but the bills are pretty much being subsidised by my parents. Still, I'm pretty sure that even living on my own, I'd be able to keep costs below £10000 (ignoring inflation). Ideally, I'd like to keep them even lower than this, but I'll use £10000 as the figure.

I'm 24. Let's be incredibly optimistic and assume I live to 100, because that way I'll have calculated for too much money, rather than too little. Also, I'm ignoring the state pension, because who knows if that'll still exist when I'm old.

Withdrawal RateBase Stache SizeWith £100,000 houseWith £400,000 house
4% at £10,000 a year£250,000£350,000£650,000
3%£333,333.33£433,333.33£733,333.33
2%£500,000£600,000£900,000
1%£1,000,000£1,100,000£1,400,000
4% at £8,000 a year£200,000£300,000£600,000
3%£266,666.67£366,666.67£666,666.67
4% at £7,000 a year£175,000£275,000£575,000
3%£233,333.33£333,333.33£633,333.33

I'm probably going to aim for one of the lower values in this table, because I don't really want to work for long enough to earn the higher values, to be honest, even self-employed. Unless, of course, I have a great entrepreneurial idea or write a bestselling novel and somehow increase my earnings by a lot.
Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: skip207 on January 13, 2018, 03:05:22 PM
Unless something very strange happens globally you don't need to go under 3% SWR.

3% is considered very, very safe.  To the point of almost being too safe.  If you want to be safer than 4% but still have best return 3.5% is the best number.

If you go with a SWR that is too low you might be tempted to increase the WR later on which could expose you to much higher chance of failure.


Title: Re: What's your UK fire amount?
Post by: BookLoverL on January 13, 2018, 04:01:18 PM
Well, as I said, I'm pretty sure I don't have the patience on this matter to save up for a higher than 3% WR anyway. ;)