Author Topic: Just a fact check from someone not in the country  (Read 1311 times)

Canadian Helmet

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Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« on: April 27, 2025, 04:12:16 PM »
I have recently listened to a few podcasts that were talking about England and I would like to ask this community if what they were saying is true.

1.  England is locking up people for what they say online.

2.  England or London has implemented a very low speed limit and if you break the limit 3 times you can loose your drivers license.

These both sound crazy and so I would like to verify.

Thanks in advance.

PhilB

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2025, 04:58:37 PM »
They have clearly been made to sound crazy on the podcasts you were listening to, so I would suggest you change podcasts.

Online hate speech is indeed a crime that can, in extreme cases, carry a prison sentence, but that is very different to 'locking people up for what they say online'.  If you are a free speech absolutist and believe you should be able to stir up hatred against people based on their race, gender, sexuality, etc. with impunity, then the UK is not the country for you.

As regards speeding, limits vary from 20 mph to 70 mph depending on the type and location of road.  If you are caught breaking the limit (and they usually allow a few mph leeway) it's a £100 fine and 3 points on your license - although most people will be offered the chance to attend a speed awareness course instead, at least the first time.  If the speeding was particularly dangerous, you might get 6 points or more.  If you get 12 points in a 3 year period it is a minimum 3 month driving ban.  For new drivers the limit is 6 points in their first 2 years.

Most people believe that is pretty reasonable, especially as 90% fewer children are killed on British roads now than in the 1970s.

Canadian Helmet

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2025, 06:09:01 PM »
Thanks for the info PhilB.

They did mention prison sentences for rude online behavior or even just quoting rap lyrics.  I just paraphrased it.  Those speeds do seem very reasonable.  They were talking about driving a car that beeped at you if you were going above 20mph and if you get caught, a three strikes you loose your license type of punishment.  And this is why I thought it would be a good idea to ask.

Christof

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2025, 01:14:25 AM »
They did mention prison sentences for rude online behavior or even just quoting rap lyrics.  I just paraphrased it.  Those speeds do seem very reasonable.  They were talking about driving a car that beeped at you if you were going above 20mph and if you get caught, a three strikes you loose your license type of punishment.

Similar rules are in place in most European countries.

Free speech here does give you the right to express your opinion, not to insult others or even call for crimes. We also in most places do not distinguish between online and offline. What you post anonymously online should match what you would say to the same person in church if you speak up during service in front of your community.

Isn't the point system similar to the one in the US and Canada? If you drive through a school zone with 60 mph while the orange lights are flashing and maybe pass a school bus that has lights flashing, you get points, too, don't you? Earn enough points, the drive license is suspended. Do it habitually, and your license can be revoked.

Metalcat

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2025, 03:31:28 AM »
Sounds like a very misleading podcast

MarcherLady

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2025, 09:29:50 AM »
By law new cars in the EU, and therefore also the UK, because our market is too small for manufacturers to switch the feature off just for us, now come with a warning that alerts the driver (visually, audibly or by a vibration on the steering wheel on most cars) if the car is going faster than the speed limit for the road. It is possible to switch the warning off, although that has to be redone every time you start the engine.

It isn't going to deter deliberate speeders, but it helps to reduce accidental speeding. I'll admit it can be annoying, there is a stretch of road near me that is a 70 limit but my car can read the 40 limit sign on a different road that runs parallel. But by and large, I think that in a few years it will be like the introduction of seat belts, and we'll all be shocked that it was ever any different.

Just to be clear, since your podcast sounds rather alarmist, cars are not reporting their speeds to anyone but their drivers!

Affable Bear

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2025, 03:05:07 AM »
Living here in the UK by and large is pretty good (I know we have problems, all countries do!).

We are summed up pretty much by the keep calm and carry on mantra, it is funny and disheartening to hear stories that we are this horrible police state or that a bunch of youtubers complaining how bad it is here and they are leaving.. I think in reality most people go about their lives with all the freedoms and privileges you would expect living in a relatively wealthy western democracy. There is no room for hate speach but open discourse can certainly be had over here (and the occasional speeding ticket).

I have heard silly (and similar) things said about Canada, there are changes happening all the time as society evolves and moves forward but there is a lot being blown out of proportion for clicks imo..
« Last Edit: April 29, 2025, 03:07:18 AM by Affable Bear »

dcheesi

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2025, 04:33:29 AM »
Living here in the UK by and large is pretty good (I know we have problems, all countries do!).

We are summed up pretty much by the keep calm and carry on mantra, it is funny and disheartening to hear stories that we are this horrible police state or that a bunch of youtubers complaining how bad it is here and they are leaving.. I think in reality most people go about their lives with all the freedoms and privileges you would expect living in a relatively wealthy western democracy. There is no room for hate speach but open discourse can certainly be had over here (and the occasional speeding ticket).

I have heard silly (and similar) things said about Canada, there are changes happening all the time as society evolves and moves forward but there is a lot being blown out of proportion for clicks imo..
One thing that's been hard to keep up with, given our own (US) flood of political insanity: it seems like the UK is moving in an anti-transgender direction even more decisively than we are? Do you have any thoughts or clarification on that topic?

MarcherLady

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2025, 06:00:56 AM »
One thing that's been hard to keep up with, given our own (US) flood of political insanity: it seems like the UK is moving in an anti-transgender direction even more decisively than we are? Do you have any thoughts or clarification on that topic?
[/quote]

I am of the view that the media is stirring up the politicians to go far further against transgender people than the general population want - if you have a conversation with the average UK voter I suspect that trans women in women's toilets is very, very far down their list of things they want the goverment to be spending its time on.

The Equality Act needs review, and that requires sensible, sensitive discussion taking into account the best interests of disparate vulnerable groups, who seem to have conflicting needs. But fanning the culture war doesn't result in sensitive discussions, and persecuting a tiny fraction of the population because you suspect based on zero evidence that they might commit a crime in the future seems like a really bad thing to me.

PhilB

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2025, 06:53:22 AM »
Exactly.  There are a bunch of rather unpleasant zealots trying to whip up a frenzy about it, but I think the average zUK voters is not particularly fussed.  The recent court case was something very specific regarding what the government of the day intended in one specific act.  The upshot is that trans women can't claim discrimination for being women, but can claim discrimination on other grounds.

Affable Bear

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2025, 07:09:01 AM »

I am with MarcherLady on this one, I think this is more of a case that the Equality Act 2010 is slightly outdated and the supreme court making a decision they probably felt was the only one they could make based on the limitations of the Act. Whilst a headline of 'UK decides X' it wasn't the government going out of its way to shift towards an anti-transgender policy but a court making a decision based on legislation that probably needs more thought and updating.

GuitarStv

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2025, 07:32:50 AM »
You know that Canada has hate speech laws as well right? . . . and much like in the UK they're rarely used, and typically only in pretty extreme cases.  I've heard a lot of right-leaning and libertarian people who argue that hate speech laws are fundamentally wrong, and it's possible to see where they're coming from in theory.  Here in Canada at least I haven't heard of any real examples of abuse or overreach with the laws though.

dcheesi

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2025, 08:20:35 AM »
I am with MarcherLady on this one, I think this is more of a case that the Equality Act 2010 is slightly outdated and the supreme court making a decision they probably felt was the only one they could make based on the limitations of the Act. Whilst a headline of 'UK decides X' it wasn't the government going out of its way to shift towards an anti-transgender policy but a court making a decision based on legislation that probably needs more thought and updating.

Ok, thanks.  I'm so used to our SCOTUS twisting legal logic to fit the desired outcome that I guess it's easy to read too much into another country's SC rulings.

[not sure what happened with the quote-chain here?]

MarcherLady

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2025, 08:43:25 AM »
[not sure what happened with the quote-chain here?]

Ah, I think I messed it up first :-)

I think it's only fair to point out that several politicians and media commentators are twisting the logic to make the SC decision into something it wasn't, so you are not alone in being confused, that is the intented result.

The kindest thing I can find to say about our govenment in this is that my impression is that the US government is trying to make transgender people go away, while our gov is trying really hard to make the conversation go away because they are too afraid to face it. Two different things with different motivations, sadly they seem to be having the same result. 

Canadian Helmet

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2025, 04:48:34 PM »
Sounds like a very misleading podcast

Yeah,  There were a few things that I wanted to check out and figured this was a good place.  Seems like fear mongering.

Canadian Helmet

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2025, 04:52:21 PM »
Living here in the UK by and large is pretty good (I know we have problems, all countries do!).

We are summed up pretty much by the keep calm and carry on mantra, it is funny and disheartening to hear stories that we are this horrible police state or that a bunch of youtubers complaining how bad it is here and they are leaving.. I think in reality most people go about their lives with all the freedoms and privileges you would expect living in a relatively wealthy western democracy. There is no room for hate speach but open discourse can certainly be had over here (and the occasional speeding ticket).

I have heard silly (and similar) things said about Canada, there are changes happening all the time as society evolves and moves forward but there is a lot being blown out of proportion for clicks imo..

Good to hear.  I like your take on it

Canadian Helmet

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2025, 04:57:21 PM »
You know that Canada has hate speech laws as well right? . . . and much like in the UK they're rarely used, and typically only in pretty extreme cases.  I've heard a lot of right-leaning and libertarian people who argue that hate speech laws are fundamentally wrong, and it's possible to see where they're coming from in theory.  Here in Canada at least I haven't heard of any real examples of abuse or overreach with the laws though.

Yeah.. I am aware of them.  I'm not a big fan of them for because of the potential government over-reach. I know they aren't being used, I just don't like the thought of them being used.

GuitarStv

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2025, 07:59:50 PM »
You know that Canada has hate speech laws as well right? . . . and much like in the UK they're rarely used, and typically only in pretty extreme cases.  I've heard a lot of right-leaning and libertarian people who argue that hate speech laws are fundamentally wrong, and it's possible to see where they're coming from in theory.  Here in Canada at least I haven't heard of any real examples of abuse or overreach with the laws though.

Yeah.. I am aware of them.  I'm not a big fan of them for because of the potential government over-reach. I know they aren't being used, I just don't like the thought of them being used.

I think that the best you can hope for in any country is a fair government approach to speech.

Sure, we have the potential for over-reach here in Canada due to our laws.  But there is no over-reach, and hasn't been.  Down in the US they have laws that very carefully spell out that a government cannot punish people for free speech, but they elected a dictator who is deporting people for what they say despite them.

So in summary . . . free speech laws don't matter if you elect a shit government.  And if you elect non-shit governments then hate speech laws can make a lot of sense.

Canadian Helmet

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2025, 05:14:42 AM »
You know that Canada has hate speech laws as well right? . . . and much like in the UK they're rarely used, and typically only in pretty extreme cases.  I've heard a lot of right-leaning and libertarian people who argue that hate speech laws are fundamentally wrong, and it's possible to see where they're coming from in theory.  Here in Canada at least I haven't heard of any real examples of abuse or overreach with the laws though.

Yeah.. I am aware of them.  I'm not a big fan of them for because of the potential government over-reach. I know they aren't being used, I just don't like the thought of them being used.

I think that the best you can hope for in any country is a fair government approach to speech.

Sure, we have the potential for over-reach here in Canada due to our laws.  But there is no over-reach, and hasn't been.  Down in the US they have laws that very carefully spell out that a government cannot punish people for free speech, but they elected a dictator who is deporting people for what they say despite them.

So in summary . . . free speech laws don't matter if you elect a shit government.  And if you elect non-shit governments then hate speech laws can make a lot of sense.

I think we should always be preparing for a shit government some point down the line.  I see the US as set up for a turn-key totalitarian government.  All the laws are in place for them to legally do that.  Put in by Republicans one year then Democrats the next.  I do not want that to happen to my country or European countries for that matter.  Heck, I don't want that for any country.  But if the key gets turned here, I would like to be able to flee to another Western country with similar values.  I would expect if it happens in the US, Canada will be the easiest and best place to go to. 

ExitViaTheCashRamp

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Re: Just a fact check from someone not in the country
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2025, 01:54:46 PM »
One thing that's been hard to keep up with, given our own (US) flood of political insanity: it seems like the UK is moving in an anti-transgender direction even more decisively than we are? Do you have any thoughts or clarification on that topic?
[/quote]

 This depends on your point of view. The Equality Act 2010 protects people based on nine specific characteristics:   age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.  The Act covers more or less everything situation you can think of where it matters -- want to rent out your spare room but the applicant is gay ? You would fall foul of the law. Sack a women just before she goes on maternity purely to avoid paying her leave, you will be in hot water. Refuse to serve someone in your restaurant who has changed gender - then see you in court.

 The problem occurred between the two protected characteristics sex and gender reassignment. Some people believed that if you wanted to set up a space exclusively for people without a Y chromosome to for example support them if they have been raped, then that was fine as sex is a protected characteristic and gender reassignment is not the same thing as sex. Some people believed otherwise. 

 The Supreme Court has just ruled that sex means sex - not gender. The way the act is written means any other interpretation would make the law unworkable. It might be the case the equality act is amended afterwards, who knows what the future might bring. When polled, the public tends to lean towards sex means sex, not gender and keeping for example, a rapist out of a woman's prison is the right thing to do even if they have changed gender. A very significant minority believe that is transphobic and just because someone has forced themselves on a woman, it would be wrong for other women to complain about being housed in close quarters with such a person regardless of their physicality.

 The fall out of the law clarification is many-fold, companies and institutions who believed that transgender women are women regardless of the steps of transition (i.e. if a person declares they are  a woman, but makes no changes at all to their clothes, appearance let alone hormones and surgery - so that they appear just the same as before they transitioned) have rapidly changed their polices to keep transgender women out of spaces that were for designated for women only.
 Stonewall had made a killing out of advising companies on the law, but the Supreme Courts ruling has made all their expensive advise wrong. They are now in serious financial trouble because of this and other blunders in court. This reduction of funding of Stonewall has been touted as transphobic too.
 There is still much to unravel, in large part as companies and government institutions trusted Stonewall to interpret the law. Transmen are going to be in a bad place until matters are more settled.


 In short -- the public at large is not anti-transgender in day to day life, they would not support actions by groups or companies to deny them for example access to renting a home, getting a job, eating at a restaurant, getting justice for being physically attacked.  They do not think that support services designed for women should have to support transwomen but would have no issue at all in a support service that supports transwomen explicitly and excludes women.


 There is a lot more to the whole saga, including the primary clinic that looked after transgender children was found to be appallingly bad at their job. Hormones were given out too quickly and without examination if other factors were involved (autism in girls (XX) was found to be far too common to be ignored - but was), patient follow ups were not made, success/failure was records were not created or studied to examine for efficacy of their work. Some believed this shutting down was part of the anti-trans movement.