#StopBurningStuff by 2030 or sooner

[ak907]

We're almost there.

We've had a small EV plus solar panels for a while now, but we've just had a heat pump plus an all-in-one heat pump hot water tank installed.

What do you mean by an all-in-one heatpump hot water tank? Just a heat pump hot water heater? or are you referring to a split unit integrated with your home heatpump?

[daverobev]

We're almost there.

We've had a small EV plus solar panels for a while now, but we've just had a heat pump plus an all-in-one heat pump hot water tank installed.

What do you mean by an all-in-one heatpump hot water tank? Just a heat pump hot water heater? or are you referring to a split unit integrated with your home heatpump?

Yeah sorry not too up on the terminology. It's like a standard electric hot water tank but with the heat pump section on top, so it pulls warm air in and pushes cold air out where it's sited. As opposed to it being part of the 'main' heat pump which heats the house, and also not having its own separate external unit.

[ak907]

We're almost there.

We've had a small EV plus solar panels for a while now, but we've just had a heat pump plus an all-in-one heat pump hot water tank installed.

What do you mean by an all-in-one heatpump hot water tank? Just a heat pump hot water heater? or are you referring to a split unit integrated with your home heatpump?

Yeah sorry not too up on the terminology. It's like a standard electric hot water tank but with the heat pump section on top, so it pulls warm air in and pushes cold air out where it's sited. As opposed to it being part of the 'main' heat pump which heats the house, and also not having its own separate external unit.

Ahh ok thanks! Got excited for a moment, been interested in split units.

[Just Joe]

We're almost there.

We've had a small EV plus solar panels for a while now, but we've just had a heat pump plus an all-in-one heat pump hot water tank installed.

What do you mean by an all-in-one heatpump hot water tank? Just a heat pump hot water heater? or are you referring to a split unit integrated with your home heatpump?

Yeah sorry not too up on the terminology. It's like a standard electric hot water tank but with the heat pump section on top, so it pulls warm air in and pushes cold air out where it's sited. As opposed to it being part of the 'main' heat pump which heats the house, and also not having its own separate external unit.

Yeah, a heat pump water heater with the hybrid option of using the normal resistance heater elements. Our heat pump makes hot water in the winter but I put it in "hybrid" mode which still uses the heat pump but also uses the regular heater elements so it recovers a little faster than if it just runs the heat pump in the cool winter garage. I switch over to hybrid mode about the same time we start having freezing weather several nights in a row.

We really like our's. Hope your experience is also good!

[NorCal]

My house is now complete.  Here's a list of projects I've done, including a few that I maybe wouldn't do again:

Necessary for decarbonization
1.  Heat Pump Water Heater:  Total Cost $2.5K (partial DIY, but before incentives were available).  Saves about $250-$300 in utility costs per year
2.  Electric cars: I'm not sure how to compute costs because we would have bought cars anyways.  And we bought overpriced face-punch worthy cars. 
3.  Heat Pump: Total cost $12k after incentives.  Operational costs are roughly break-even, and possibly slightly higher.  It really depends on whether gas costs are high or low in any particular year. 
4.  Gas fireplace replacement: Cost $1.5k as a mostly DIY project, although I hired a handyman to patch the vent-hole in the side of my house.  While I didn't have to do this, I wanted to fully cut my gas meter fee, and I didn't want a non-operational fireplace.
5.  Solar just installed!:  It's a big system at 18.4kW, which cost $35k after incentives.

Optional things for decarbonization
1. Whole House Fan: $2.2k.  This was my gateway drug into energy efficiency projects.  It probably saves $150-$200/yr in energy costs.  I probably wouldn't do it again with the added efficiency of the heat pump.
2. Induction Stove (replaced electric) $1.2k:  I love it and you can pry it from my cold dead hands.  A lot of what I like is the mid-tier oven functions like air-fry and convection.  Cooktop touchpads are dumb though.  Avoid those at all costs.
3. Heat-pump washer/dryer combo 1.4k:  I like this.  I wouldn't replace a good working set for one, but I'd put it at the top of the list when it's time to replace an old one.  It saves me about 500kWh/yr, and I find it slightly more convenient than the traditional setup.
4. Sense Home energy monitor: $350.  This is critical.  Knowing where your energy goes is the key to understanding what to change.  Buy one if you care about energy efficiency. 

I overall spent about $50k on the required items, and about $56k if you count the optional items (still leaving out the cars).

That sounds like a lot of money, but we were paying $5k/yr in utilities and gasoline per year.  We hope to be in this house for 20+ years.  It's still a 10 year undiscounted payback, and maybe a 5-8 year discounted payback if you assume a reasonable rate of inflation on gas and utility prices. 

[RWD]

Awesome! Our 15.6 kW solar system was about $29k after incentives (not counting batteries), seems pretty in line with your pricing. We've had a net export every month except for one which was nearly dead equal (consumption 1.5% over production).

Our second car is still ICE but we drive it so infrequently (and there isn't an EV equivalent out yet) that it's pretty low on the priority list. Everything else is electric.

[Car Jack]

Every region is different.  I'm in New England where electric is almost all natural gas.  Some nuclear.  But we have strangled pipelines coming from the fracking areas providing cheap natural gas, so our cost is double to triple where most of the country is.  It's why a Tesla costs more to run than my Subaru Crosstrek.  I'll add that I also get gas discounts all the time, so it sort of blows Tesla out of the water cost wise.  Our electric rates are in line with California and Hawaii so electric heat here is way too expensive to consider.  We do have oil backup. 

You didn't mention what your rate is, but https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ suggests to me that your rates can at most be double and nowhere near triple (that's reserved for HI). Your crosstrek has similar/lower MPG to my honda fit and I can tell you in my less-efficient-than-a-tesla-EV, it costs about a third what the fit does in terms of fuel over the spring/summer/fall. With power twice mine (I'm near national average), and a winter range penalty, I might hit the point where the cost is equal. Barely.

You may want to check your math. FWIW, my math is budget tracking to add up what we paid for gas over 3 years divided by mileage -- $0.10/mile for our fit in the flat midwest. $0.10/kwh is a decent estimate of the marginal electrical rate (I have power for the house anyway, so the EV doesn't "add" to my basic connection fee, etc) we use to charge the EV, and EVs get between 2 and 4 miles/kwh depending on conditions and which EV. So that's 5c to 2.5c per mile.

A very late reply, but I guess I haven't been in here for a while.

My comparison is always between my manual 2019 Subaru Crosstrek that typically gets 35 mpg vs the most efficient EV, a Tesla Model 3 rear single motor.  I'm an engineer, so afflicted with doing math.  You should see my investment spread sheet.  There are times the Tesla costs less per mile but it goes back and fourth.  Here ya go:

Crosstrek 35 mpg
Gas (I bought it yesterday) $2.74 a gallon at the no name station on Rt 126 in Framingham, MA just south of Market Basket.

Tesla model 3 0.21 kWh per mile
My electric rate last month 38 cents per kWh

Crosstrek:  $2.74/gallon / (35 miles/gal) = 7.83 cents per mile

Tesla:  $0.38/kWh * 0.21 kWh/mile = 7.98 cents per mile

So this week, they're about equal in my mind.  I'm not going to spend double what my Crosstrek cost new (paid $22k even) for an EV.  I didn't even add in the 3% credit card discount on gas.  Eversource won't take credit cards, only bank payment for electricity.  And yes, I'm on a low cost electricity provider, NRG.  It saved me like a penny over Eversource.

[NorCal]

Every region is different.  I'm in New England where electric is almost all natural gas.  Some nuclear.  But we have strangled pipelines coming from the fracking areas providing cheap natural gas, so our cost is double to triple where most of the country is.  It's why a Tesla costs more to run than my Subaru Crosstrek.  I'll add that I also get gas discounts all the time, so it sort of blows Tesla out of the water cost wise.  Our electric rates are in line with California and Hawaii so electric heat here is way too expensive to consider.  We do have oil backup. 

You didn't mention what your rate is, but https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/ suggests to me that your rates can at most be double and nowhere near triple (that's reserved for HI). Your crosstrek has similar/lower MPG to my honda fit and I can tell you in my less-efficient-than-a-tesla-EV, it costs about a third what the fit does in terms of fuel over the spring/summer/fall. With power twice mine (I'm near national average), and a winter range penalty, I might hit the point where the cost is equal. Barely.

You may want to check your math. FWIW, my math is budget tracking to add up what we paid for gas over 3 years divided by mileage -- $0.10/mile for our fit in the flat midwest. $0.10/kwh is a decent estimate of the marginal electrical rate (I have power for the house anyway, so the EV doesn't "add" to my basic connection fee, etc) we use to charge the EV, and EVs get between 2 and 4 miles/kwh depending on conditions and which EV. So that's 5c to 2.5c per mile.

A very late reply, but I guess I haven't been in here for a while.

My comparison is always between my manual 2019 Subaru Crosstrek that typically gets 35 mpg vs the most efficient EV, a Tesla Model 3 rear single motor.  I'm an engineer, so afflicted with doing math.  You should see my investment spread sheet.  There are times the Tesla costs less per mile but it goes back and fourth.  Here ya go:

Crosstrek 35 mpg
Gas (I bought it yesterday) $2.74 a gallon at the no name station on Rt 126 in Framingham, MA just south of Market Basket.

Tesla model 3 0.21 kWh per mile
My electric rate last month 38 cents per kWh

Crosstrek:  $2.74/gallon / (35 miles/gal) = 7.83 cents per mile

Tesla:  $0.38/kWh * 0.21 kWh/mile = 7.98 cents per mile

So this week, they're about equal in my mind.  I'm not going to spend double what my Crosstrek cost new (paid $22k even) for an EV.  I didn't even add in the 3% credit card discount on gas.  Eversource won't take credit cards, only bank payment for electricity.  And yes, I'm on a low cost electricity provider, NRG.  It saved me like a penny over Eversource.

It can also be worth doing the emissions math.  A gallon of gasoline emits 18.73lbs of emissions per gallon (ethanol blend). 

Emissions per kWh vary.  You can usually google "emissions intensity" with your utility name to get a precise number.  Absent that, find a good proxy with at the link below.  Search for output emissions rate for CO2 equivalent at the state level.  The US average is 0.775 lb/kWh, with some states as low as 0.25lb/kWh, and some as high as 1.97lbs/kWh.  Most New England states seems to be in the ballpark of the national average.

Driving 10k miles per year on your Crosstrek would generate 5,351lbs of emissions per year.
 
Driving 10k miles per year on a Model 3 (3.9mi/kWh) would generate 1,987lbs of emissions per year assuming 0.775lbs/kWh.

Sources:
https://www.epa.gov/egrid/data-explorer
https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php

[middo]

We had our natural gas meter removed last week. Now we only have a petrol car to replace and we will be entirely done.  We will keep it until a major repair is needed as replacing it makes no financial sense at all at the moment.

[RWD]

We had our natural gas meter removed last week. Now we only have a petrol car to replace and we will be entirely done.  We will keep it until a major repair is needed as replacing it makes no financial sense at all at the moment.

Woot, congrats!

[NorCal]

We had our natural gas meter removed last week. Now we only have a petrol car to replace and we will be entirely done.  We will keep it until a major repair is needed as replacing it makes no financial sense at all at the moment.

Congrats!  That gas meter is the hardest part. 

[rockeTree]

Amazing work NorCal and middo! Way ahead of schedule.

I’m a fed so big investments are paused for a bit (you’re welcome for my service, my little office saves folks over a billion usd a year), which means the gas furnace will sit another couple years. Everything else done except one hybrid vehicle (and I guess half a tank of propane sitting under the gas grill we haven’t used in ages).

Wish the policy levers in the US could be counted on to help more people on the path medium term.

Edit for autocorrect typo

[daverobev]

We're done, too. Heat pump and heat pump hot water tank went in last year, and we've had an EV a few years now. The last thing was replacing the gas hob with an induction one, which happened a month ago. They don't actually remove the meter here, but it's decommissioned (the meter is out on the street).

Except we do have a wood burner, which is absolutely lovely, and we burn local wood in it. However - we did buy 1/4 the amount of wood this winter than the winter before. A combination of the heat pump providing gentle heat all the time and finally replacing the old wooden front door (which was lovely... but draughty) means we just don't need the fire on as much. Cold or wet days? Yeah, love it.

[NorCal]

Amazing work NorCal and middo! Way ahead of schedule.

I’m a fed so big investments are paused for a bit (you’re welcome for my service, my little office saves folks over a billion usd a year), which means the gas furnace will sit another couple years. Everything else done except one hybrid vehicle (and I guess half a tank of propane sitting under the gas grill we haven’t used in ages).

Wish the policy levers in the US could be counted on to help more people on the path medium term.

Edit for autocorrect typo

We're all wishing you the best dealing with the shitshow that is going on in the federal workforce.  Now is a good time to hunker down.

I'm already seeing the signs of chaos spreading to the private sector.  It's going to suck all around, but it will also generate opportunities for those that know how to look for them. 

[rockeTree]

Appreciate the thoughts.

I will be fine. I am as you may have guessed a planner and a saver and I need a job with healthcare (not too confident in the ACA at this moment) but not this job or any other fancy job. I am worried about the work and about my colleagues, though.

[Frugal Lizard]

We are all electric now. The natural gas furnace, water heater and fireplace were removed a couple of weeks ago. We have owned an EV since March 2018. 10kW PV system since November 2015. Induction since 2021.

So far so good.

There were warnings about the heat pump hot water tank vs natural gas because of the length of time to refill vs the tank temperature. We have a slightly larger tank as we have 2 adult offspring that still move home for stretches. They don't shower the way they used to when they were in high school. And between working from home and jobs that involve labour, there isn't the demand for 4 showers in less than an hour every weekday morning.

We have never had AC in this house so it will be nice to chill down the upstairs next week when our first heat wave happens.

We had a contractor do the install because it was apparent that all the air handling throughout the house needed a major upgrade. And we needed a building permit because we were doing a fuel switch. Getting all the installation done correctly was way beyond our capacity. We are taking care of patching all the holes in the walls and ceilings.

We have not terminated our Enbridge account. We get a grant through Enbridge after we pass a follow up energy audit. We still have some air sealing and insulating to take care of before that. Once we have the grant refund, then we will close the gas account.   

We might install a small wood burning insert at a later date, but I am going to see how I feel after at least one winter. We don't have as many ice storms as where I grew up, but I still have the irrational fears about extended periods without electricity.

We still have a propane tank BBQ but we rarely use it.

Our Enbridge account is closed. There is a pin in the meter handle locking it.

We got the grant money from the Green program, however they owe us $600-700 for all the gas they billed us for in our equal monthly billing plan. Charges from May to February. Despite me submitting meter readings every month. (that were the same because as the HVAC installers had shut off the gas in May). Enbridge even altered the meter reading in July and then recalculated our monthly useage plan because it is "impossible that our June and July readings can't be the same". And then would use them Sept - January

I didn't make it a whole winter without installing a wood burning fire place insert. I will try to use it infrequently but at least when I do, I enjoy it immensely. I am burning wood from my parent's farm that has come down due to age or emerald ash borer and kindling from projects around the house and shredded paper. I am going to make some bees wax, sawdust and dryer lint when we dry 100% cotton clothing (which is super rarely)



We still have a propane tank on our bbq but we also rarely use it.

[AlanStache]

...

Wish the policy levers in the US could be counted on to help more people on the path medium term.

I wish those policy levers were pulled a medium term ago so that we could be in an almost good place now...  rockeTree - know is not your fault.

Best time to plant a tree and all that

[AccidentialMustache]

We had our natural gas meter removed last week. Now we only have a petrol car to replace and we will be entirely done.  We will keep it until a major repair is needed as replacing it makes no financial sense at all at the moment.

Apparently if you don't have gas service for long enough, they disconnect your service line at the gas main. My yard also has spray paint and little flags all over it ask me why I know this...

Not a brag, more a fyi. The house was all-electric when we bought it except for the gas log fireplace. Nice, I guess, but not $20/mo service charge nice. Candles will do, thanks. We'll pocket the $240/yr.

I will still grill (on actual wood charcoal) occasionally though. Burgers. Flank steak teriyaki. Five-spice chicken. Yum!

[Poundwise]

At the request of a friend, I sent in a comment to local government advocating for Zero Waste policies.  They are thinking about building another incinerator.