Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 959258 times)

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5650 on: December 05, 2021, 03:43:16 PM »
Hey what's been up gang?  Market took a slight dump.  Ho hum. 
Me and my bicycle spend last week out on the Natchez Trace.  Went with all my camping gear for 220 miles of solo cycling.  I was able to exercise off all that Thanksgiving crap.   It was out and back between Natchez Mississippi and Jackson Mississippi.   I parked my truck at Rocky Springs Campground.  I did a hotel night in Jackson and Natchez, while camping at Rocky Springs near the midpoint.  I could have just left the camping gear at the truck and rode lighter.  Instead I wanted to simulate a point to point and train with the added weight as a shakedown.  The four days of riding did teach me some things.  One, even the stuff you can strap to a bicycle is too much stuff.  Two, it's nice to have money.  In Jackson and Natchez I stayed in nicer hotels.  I still got them on Priceline for about $100 bucks a night, but there were $50 options available.  What the hell is $50 bucks to us? 
Three, I'm ready for retirement.  I enjoyed my week alone so much, I can't wait for the freedom to explore more on my bicycle and with my backpack. 

Something good to dream about and maybe even plan for as I look out the window and see the freezing rain cover the deck.  My panniers work fine for grocery hauling so this sounds do-able.  Once again, you've made the book, "Miles From Nowhere," pop into my head.
I'd been studying up on the Civil War battles prior to the trip.  The battle of Vicksburg Mississippi was laid out in this area.   Sure you can reach it all by car.  But that's too fast.  Your mind needs to take in the terrain and your muscles need to feel the hills.  Even at 10 miles per hour pedaling a loaded down bicycle it's too fast.  But, it gets you closer to the land.  I saw the fields they camped in and the streams they drank from. 
I hope to complete the Natchez Trace from Nashville back to Jackson in the Spring.  Just wanted to share a bit of the experience.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5651 on: December 07, 2021, 09:41:54 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5652 on: December 08, 2021, 12:17:33 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5653 on: December 08, 2021, 05:33:50 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5654 on: December 08, 2021, 08:05:38 AM »
I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5655 on: December 08, 2021, 11:00:54 AM »
I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

They advantage to having worked for the Federal Government minus my HS and College jobs, my pay stub portal has all 20 W2s still available.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5656 on: December 08, 2021, 11:48:01 AM »
I'd say we're on par with net worth being at net lifetime job earnings, maybe not gross.  Going to the Social Security website is probably my only way to check. 
There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"
They are talking about you.

I'm not positive the SS site will help you for this purpose if you are a high earner.   I **think** it just shows SS taxable income, not full income.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5657 on: December 08, 2021, 01:46:09 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

I just checked. Hell, my house is worth more than I made in my lifetime! HCOLA for the win! /s

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5658 on: December 08, 2021, 05:04:10 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

JoePublic3.14

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5659 on: December 08, 2021, 06:38:19 PM »

There are derogatory sayings like, "That tightwad has every dollar he's ever made!"


The dollars those dollars have made would really tick them off. Fortunately, most of them don’t get it…

Wile E. Coyote

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5660 on: December 08, 2021, 08:49:32 PM »
I'm not positive the SS site will help you for this purpose if you are a high earner.   I **think** it just shows SS taxable income, not full income.


I was looking at it yesterday and it shows Medicare earnings as well, so it should provide a decent estimate.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5661 on: December 09, 2021, 03:29:06 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?


In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5662 on: December 09, 2021, 06:26:06 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?


In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

I'm with you on that one....it has been a meandering path for sure, with detours and deviations.  I've finally atoned [financially] for some past mistakes and have righted the ship, but need a few years of W2 earnings + market growth to get to a more comfortable place to pull the trigger on RE.

Well done on your being able to FIRE at 50....several years ahead of me.

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5663 on: December 09, 2021, 11:03:16 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5664 on: December 09, 2021, 11:36:15 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?


In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5665 on: December 09, 2021, 02:00:54 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?


In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.


haha- To funny! The Tundra is going to get walloped tonight and tomorrow

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5666 on: December 09, 2021, 02:53:04 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?


In my book if you have the $'s to qualify then you belong! we all get to where we want to be different ways and have different Ideas of what being frugal and or how or what we want for retirement. I will say I am nowhere near as frugal as others on here as well but I am a lot more frugal than I was and a hell of a lot more frugal than most people or aliens that are roaming our planet.

Hey!  Keep it quiet about the frugal aliens.  The world is not ready to learn about the planet Tightwad yet.

I've been meaning to tell you it's "Arctic."  I have seen the frozen tundra in Green Bay.






What a coincidence, I drive a Green Tundra. 


I usually avoid talking about aliens (or the voices in my head). 

SteadyStache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5667 on: December 09, 2021, 10:11:01 PM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5668 on: December 10, 2021, 01:25:38 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

I've definitely been spending more lately.  It's the rewards of a lifetime of frugality. 

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5669 on: December 10, 2021, 01:30:14 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Well, welcome aboard lurker.  I'm not FIRED yet either.  Spring 2023 for me.  When I first came to MMM I was going to quit with 1.5 million.  Then I found this thread.  Had to make more to keep up with the cool kids.   

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5670 on: December 10, 2021, 03:09:29 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

Welcome aboard! It's possible that RE when you're net worth is at this level may actually be harder than those retiring with smaller stashes. Very likely you got here due to a combination of some level of frugality and a high income. Giving up the firehose of income can be hard - but it can be done :-)

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5671 on: December 10, 2021, 04:01:59 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.


Welcome! Always good to see more people join. Once your in you in if market dips and you drop below 2M that doesn't knock you out imho. At least I have never seen it stated that way. Good group of people as you know if you have been a creepy Lurker for years  haha!

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5672 on: December 10, 2021, 04:04:12 AM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one for sure @soccerluvof4.  I've got my laundry list of excuses (late start, divorce, college, world's most expensive dog, etc.), but bottom line, I'm not as frugal as others on this thread I am quite certain.   My goal at retirement might be ~60% of lifetime earnings, but ..... {embarrassed expression} I'm a five-handle on this one.  And low fives at that.  Does that disqualify me from this forum :-) ?

I'm pretty sure that my frugality has been slipping away year by year.  I'm Mustachian at heart, but spending much more freely now.   I'm not quite sure how I drifted so far from frugal, but.  it's definitely related to the fact that I couldn't spend it all if I tried.  So, there you have it.

I've definitely been spending more lately.  It's the rewards of a lifetime of frugality.


You earned it, Pun intended!

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5673 on: December 10, 2021, 06:22:58 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.


Welcome! Always good to see more people join. Once your in you in if market dips and you drop below 2M that doesn't knock you out imho. At least I have never seen it stated that way. Good group of people as you know if you have been a creepy Lurker for years  haha!

This is the only race thread I have ever posted in because it tends to be more general discussion and less actual numbers. But sure, come on over and ask to see my proof of membership.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5674 on: December 10, 2021, 06:39:00 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

I think you are set.  I've been worried about a big dip for years, other than blips, it has never come.  It kinda feels good, doesn't it?

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5675 on: December 10, 2021, 07:09:08 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.

I'll add my welcome @SteadyStache and we're in a similar position today on LNW so we will likely rise or fall together, barring other extraneous events. 

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5676 on: December 10, 2021, 07:18:42 AM »
Guess I"ll join this group. Been following these posts for a number of years, and I feel like I know you all! Not sure how long my current (as of 12/1/21) ~2.3M LNW will stick though. I'm FI, but not yet RE, and still feeling quite uneasy in this phase. Hope to have the courage to make the jump to true FIRE soon.




Congrats & Welcome. 


:)

SteadyStache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5677 on: December 10, 2021, 09:49:33 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5678 on: December 10, 2021, 02:19:51 PM »
Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5679 on: December 10, 2021, 03:02:43 PM »
Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....
The prognostications that make predictions without any timelines are the ones that crack me up the most.  I will gladly make a bold prediction now that a market crash and economic crisis is 'coming' ;-)
Drives me even more crazy when I see it in the other (optimistic) direction  (e.g. those headlines like X predicts Dow 60,000....but then you read the article and it doesn't give a timeline for that 60k....um, ok, duh).

DaTrill

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5680 on: December 10, 2021, 04:49:08 PM »
I did some Math today.  My net worth is now greater than the amount I’ve earned in a W2 job.
Congratulations! Mine is too, but I suspect I'm way older than you, meaning it took me a lot longer to get there.

Not me. It took me till my 40's to realize or get my shit together and ask myself "Dude" what are you doing. Fortunately, With the help of MMM and a few other threads I was able to still fire at 50 and will be hitting my 7 years April second. So kudos to both of you as you did it and got smart way faster than I did. Even you Dicey at an older age as you say.

I'm triple.  Worked off and on for 25 years.  This ratio is mostly a function of age as compounding does most of the work of increasing NW. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 02:57:00 PM by DaTrill »

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5681 on: December 11, 2021, 04:01:40 AM »
Saw an article today headlined "Robert Kiyosaki expects a market crash and economic crisis - and plans to buy gold, bitcoin and real estate when prices tumble" and that he's been taking this position for more than a year.  Without commenting on the investing acumen / wisdom of Robert Kiyosaki, it is funny to consider that, since he has been calling for this "crash" the S&P 500 is up 29% (if not more, considering I don't know EXACTLY how long he has been saying this).   Better be one hell of a crash....
The prognostications that make predictions without any timelines are the ones that crack me up the most.  I will gladly make a bold prediction now that a market crash and economic crisis is 'coming' ;-)
Drives me even more crazy when I see it in the other (optimistic) direction  (e.g. those headlines like X predicts Dow 60,000....but then you read the article and it doesn't give a timeline for that 60k....um, ok, duh).


So many predictors hoping that if a crash or new level is made they get naming rights and its nothing more than that. Example the Hanes Bottom. Or Haines. Not sure how he spelled his name. No one can predict these things if its an open dated prediction. Hell thats even easier than being a Weather man.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5682 on: December 11, 2021, 10:01:24 AM »
An interesting last few weeks.  With the market dropping a bunch, then inching back up and a few good pumps back up, I do tend to look at the bright side.  While my portfolio high hasn't been hit yet again, I see that it's risen in the last week by $100k.  A hundred grand!!!  Now, my accounting is all done by hand, offline on an excel spread sheet.  I do a rebalance at 5% up on either equities or bonds.  I'm at 54 and about a half percent in equities (target 50 even).  I won't pull the trigger early, but it feels pretty good that the portfolio's up and soon, I'll be rebalancing to make it stick even more for the near future.

DW has an inheritance that she's the executor for with an aunt.  Holy cow, could old people really screw things up for people they're trying to cut corners to "in their mind" give more to.  What do I mean?

US Savings bonds from the grandfather/grandmother dating back as far as 1941.  This is because of that good ole old timer thought that you never tell the government anything, so it wasn't included in the estate when both grandparents were dead.  So now, we had to re-open the grandfather's probate which costs lawyer money and 2 years of tax returns.  The bond value in total is around $75k, split between DW and sister in law.  Both get along well, so no drama.  Just a ton of work.

Aunt worked for the state.  There was a state life policy worth about $14k total with both sisters named as beneficiaries.  Outside of probate but we're talking a 20 page, complicated form that was first rejected because the notary supposedly wrote something on the wrong line.  Resubmission and finally the check is here.

Another life policy with Metlife that was pretty easy for like $1k.

While in process, DW's 87 year old father brings her a paper.  Seems he and grandmother took out some kind of policy when she was 1.  They were clearly sold a bill of goods as this is called something like a paid up policy.  He thought she should be getting $1k.  She collected $600.  Why?  The $1k was a death benefit on her.

The aunt put my wife on as joint on her bank accounts.  The good with those thought that she could take the money outside of probate and not tell the government what's going on.  In reality, one of them is over $150k, and my wife knows that the aunt meant everything to be split 50/50 with her sister, so both are being cashed into the estate account and going through probate.  And of course the Aunt's estate account is going to get the remainder of the savings bond money because the aunt inherited everything from the grandparents.  So their wishes to screw the government, thinking like lots of people that even if you have a small estate that the government takes something, which is 100% wrong were thwarted.  And of course for DW, all this makes things much more complicated.

So while both DW and her sister would have taken home about $100k each in inheritance here, lawyer fees and all the wonderful mailings and taxes are probably cutting a third from each of them.

Time wise, DW will have at least 100 hours of her time into this.  She hates doing this stuff and considered just resigning as executor and declining all the inheritance.  I'm sure the old timers would roll over in their graves seeing what they did to avoid any attention by anyone in government is being completely exposed.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5683 on: December 11, 2021, 01:39:41 PM »
Time wise, DW will have at least 100 hours of her time into this.  She hates doing this stuff and considered just resigning as executor and declining all the inheritance.  I'm sure the old timers would roll over in their graves seeing what they did to avoid any attention by anyone in government is being completely exposed.

There was a similarly messy situation in my family a few years ago. My aunt died and left my dad as executor. But my dad was unfortunately deep in Alzheimer's so was unable to do this. and to make matters worse, the will was very badly drafted with lots of inconsistencies . My mom started to get panicky but thankfully, there was an alternative executor who was designated in the will. So with the help of a doctor's certificate, we dodged the mess. Last I heard, they are still trying to sort out the will three years later.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5684 on: December 11, 2021, 04:00:50 PM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

GreenEggs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5685 on: December 11, 2021, 04:28:01 PM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...




"Itchyfeet" ?  It sounds like you were dreaming of travel the day you chose the name to use here.  Do you still yearn to travel?  Maybe traveling isn't your really what you're looking for, but perhaps you'll discover your true future goals while seeing some of the world. 


Regardless, to continue selling your days just because you're afraid that you'll be bored with the life that you choose to live isn't putting much faith in the Bad Ass you that made that big "pile o' cash".  You'll figure it out.


soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5686 on: December 12, 2021, 03:35:39 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...




"Itchyfeet" ?  It sounds like you were dreaming of travel the day you chose the name to use here.  Do you still yearn to travel?  Maybe traveling isn't your really what you're looking for, but perhaps you'll discover your true future goals while seeing some of the world. 


Regardless, to continue selling your days just because you're afraid that you'll be bored with the life that you choose to live isn't putting much faith in the Bad Ass you that made that big "pile o' cash".  You'll figure it out.


Definitely better to take your time and follow the saying " have something to retire to" I really didn't have that choice and it took me a lot longer to go through the transition then most.  7 years this April and while it was the right thing for me I still learn that more and more each day as things come up I need to take care of. When your ready you'll just be done! no reason to force it.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5687 on: December 12, 2021, 11:16:25 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

I find it a bit funny when folks use the term workaholic on this forum.  Sure, there are people in the real world that neglect their family, but then why come to a forum that tells you how great it is to 'retire'? 

I think there is a healthy world of working beyond FI to do good things for others that are not FI.  I personally feel very empowered to make mine and my DW's work better for the others that are on the path to FI.

Long story short, don't stress retirement.  It will come to you sooner or later anyway!

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5688 on: December 13, 2021, 01:11:08 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5689 on: December 13, 2021, 03:27:31 AM »

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

You should take a look at this thought provoking article on More to That. I think it speaks to your situation quite directly.

Quote
To a large extent, this is true. By defining what enough means, you’re giving yourself a concrete barometer to judge your desires by, and whether or not they are worth having. It’s the best way to tell your future self, “Hey, don’t forget where you come from.”

The problem, however, is that this future self is a projection of your present-day desires. When you’re defining what enough means, you’re effectively saying, “Given what I want today, I just need this much more of it to be satisfied in the future.” But how plausible is it that what you want today will remain unchanged as you march onward to your goal?

G-dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5690 on: December 13, 2021, 07:32:51 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

Loser /jk 🤑

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5691 on: December 13, 2021, 07:53:27 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.

Haha. It could have been me writing this post. I go back to page 1 of this thread and chuckle at how many times over I have broken the promise to myself to FIRE since first posting here.

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Having just failed my 4th attempt at retirement by taking a contract role (at 60 years old) I feel you..:)

Loser /jk 🤑
Loser /nk 🤣

soulpatchmike

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5692 on: December 13, 2021, 08:57:44 AM »
Thanks all for the warm welcome. I follow most of the threads in other groups, but have only posted here and "Ask a Mustachian' asking whether I'm really ready to RE.

Accumulation phase seems much easier than this current transistory and the seemingly out-of-reach RE stage. OMY or even a few months of work can fund a kitchen/bathroom upgrade for DW, and so on... I had thought my number was also 1.5, then 1.85, then 2, now it's more like 2.5. But I'll truly, really be happy with 2.8. I promise!

Contemplating joining the 2022 cohort without a specific date, but definitely want to be out by the 1st FASFA year of 2025.
If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

SteadyStache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5693 on: December 13, 2021, 09:19:26 AM »

I am now well into the “and beyond” category, and still not really sure when I will FIRE. DW just got a contract role for 2022 and wants to see that out, so maybe I’ll be working through 2022.

It doesn’t help that when I tell people I am going to retire in the coming months they just laugh at me and say “you are a workaholic, you will go stir crazy not working”. I don’t see myself as a workaholic but am starting to fear there could be some truth that I will struggle to fill my days.

I celebrated (maybe not the right word) my 50th last month, so failed on my goal to retire in my 40s.

I am a bit lost at the moment on what my next step should be. But really, at this point it is not the finances driving the decision. That hurdle is cleared. It is all the other considerations which have come to the forefront of mind now the financial barrier has been cleared.

In a world where money is not really a limiting factor, how do I want to live my remaining years? Sigh...

Financials and trepidation are definitely driving my (in)decision now, but I think I'll be out before hitting the great beyond.

SteadyStache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5694 on: December 13, 2021, 09:27:59 AM »
If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

Yup, understood. DD will head to college in 2025, so my 1st FAFSA year is 2023. I do plan on qualifying for the simplified means test, so my end date should EOY 2022.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 12:03:34 PM by SteadyStache »

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5695 on: December 13, 2021, 11:44:42 AM »
If your first FAFSA is for Fall 2025 and you want to minimize income you need to quit by the end of 2022.  FAFSA uses 2 yr prior tax returns to ensure everyone uses the same income tax year return.  All of the extensions have run out by the second year.  Taxable account values are as of the date you file the FAFSA, but income is 2 years old.
Fall 2022 start uses 2020 tax return
FA 2023 uses 2021
FA 2024 uses 2022
FA 2025 uses 2023

Yup, understood. DH will head to college in 2025, so my 1st FAFSA year is 2023. I do plan on qualifying for the simplified means test, so my end date should EOY 2022.

Be aware that the rules for SNT (and FAFSA generally) are changing due to a law passed about a year ago.  Google "FAFSA Simplification" for details.  May affect your planning a little bit.  I know I'm having to incorporate the changes in my 2021 income tax planning for my two college sophomores' FAFSAs.  In my case the AGI for SNT dropped by about $500.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5696 on: December 22, 2021, 09:54:01 PM »
Well an interesting executive order was signed and I get my 2.2% raise for next year.  I wasn’t expecting more because government.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5697 on: December 24, 2021, 10:50:49 AM »
I just want to say Happy Bowl season to the Southern Members of this group and Happy holidays to all.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5698 on: December 29, 2021, 10:10:16 AM »
So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5699 on: December 29, 2021, 11:04:12 AM »
So how has 2021 been financially? Despite my being retired, our net worth went up by 18% this year which is just astounding.
I think I mentioned it upthread, but our RE has skyrocketed in 2021. As in, I could make this club on RE equity alone. Yesterday, I got a ping from Zillow. One of our rentals "went up" in "value" $8,800 in the last 30 days! Bonkers!

We are also going to be receiving a substantial inheritance soon. We never counted on that in our planning.