Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 855631 times)

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5000 on: June 23, 2021, 12:12:02 PM »
I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

I like the idea of giving out money to children when you are still alive and see how they enjoy that gift. It is, however, very difficult to see how much money you really need when you are still in your 50s or 60s, especially many on this forum are talking about retiring as soon as they reach their numbers.

Yes, but it doesn't have to be an amount that's a huge hit to you. 

E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5001 on: June 23, 2021, 04:01:11 PM »
E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

Similar story: I had practically no money when I started work and was hoping my student car would last for at least a few months until savings could build up. But it died completely soon after I started work - mind you, I had a 150 mile daily round trip to work. My dad sent me a check for $4000 and I was able to use that as a down payment on a car (13% APR no less).

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5002 on: June 23, 2021, 06:46:36 PM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

I think being terrified for your life does indeed apply.  I wonder if OSHA thinks so.  I was taught that there are acute hazards that happen right away like explosions or electrocution and then there are the chronic things, i.e. chemical exposures, breathing asbestos fibers, breathing particulates,sun exposure etc.  It sounds like your workplace probably has both.  So, you might have missed the explosion, but there could be something long term that could get you too.  The longer you stay in a place like that the higher the odds of chronic exposure getting you.

That's another good reason to be retired. :)

The most common chronic condition I've noticed workers develop is multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome.   Asthma and rashes on the skin when exposed to chemical liquids or vapors.  Some have been hospitalized with asthma like conditions.  Luckily I  haven't developed any exposure related illnesses.   If there are latent effects it's probably too late to matter now.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5003 on: June 23, 2021, 06:50:42 PM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your coworker.   Your internet pal, JoJoP, sends condolences to your workforce and the family. 

Edited to add:  Sorry about your MIL, Dicey.   My condolences to your family as well.

I didn't know the victim.  He worked for an outside contractor.  That most likely contributed to his fear and anxiety.   We intricately know the process and hazards, outside contractors only receive brief training on the hazards present.  They know there are many lethal and explosive substances in use, but the facility is so huge there is no way from them to contemplate it's scope.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M
« Reply #5004 on: June 23, 2021, 06:55:21 PM »
I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

I'd typed up a nice long reply, but it didn't post.  Basically lifestyle creep and the necessity for health care are my main reasons for staying longer.  Most likely I'll be holding out for age 55.  I can probably trim off a few months with use of vacation time.

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Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5005 on: June 23, 2021, 10:06:15 PM »
Bateaux . Time> money . You have plenty of money . I know itís hard but trust me, your time to go is now .  I just pulled the plug last month and itís glorious. All the best! Trust the numbers . Carpe diem !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:08:52 PM by MadDuckT »

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M
« Reply #5006 on: June 24, 2021, 03:46:11 AM »
I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

I'd typed up a nice long reply, but it didn't post.  Basically lifestyle creep and the necessity for health care are my main reasons for staying longer.  Most likely I'll be holding out for age 55.  I can probably trim off a few months with use of vacation time.



You got to do what's right by you BUT having followed, conversed with you online and so on , Like the majority here I think that was a good warning shot against the bow and would walk away. But respect your decision. 

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5007 on: June 24, 2021, 11:10:33 AM »
E.g. I will never forget the time I lost my job, not long out of school (and with a negative net worth b/c of student loans), just after my wife had been laid off, who was many months pregnant with my first kid.  It was pretty challenging moment for me as I wondered if I was failing my new family.  Out of the blue my folks sent me $2k (which prob equates to about $4k today).  My inheritance from them will likely be around $200k, and that $200k just wont matter to me at all, whereas that $2k I got from them was HUGE....

Similar story: I had practically no money when I started work and was hoping my student car would last for at least a few months until savings could build up. But it died completely soon after I started work - mind you, I had a 150 mile daily round trip to work. My dad sent me a check for $4000 and I was able to use that as a down payment on a car (13% APR no less).

Wow, I think we shared a life.  I had a couple year stretch I worked 3 hours away from my wife and new kid...I'd drive down Monday morning and back Friday night.  That was precisely the time I decided I needed to get FI as fast as possible....

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5008 on: June 24, 2021, 11:35:40 AM »
That was precisely the time I decided I needed to get FI as fast as possible....
Wise man.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5009 on: June 24, 2021, 06:32:36 PM »
I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5010 on: June 24, 2021, 08:53:42 PM »
I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.   

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5011 on: June 24, 2021, 09:43:51 PM »
I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5012 on: June 25, 2021, 03:21:17 AM »
I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.


This is one of those things that I just think is really broken in our Country. While there are good ones out there they make a killing wiping out families wealth and the costs are excessive at best for something even decent. I did alot of work on them and was always surprised by how poorly people were treated or in most cases ignored. Really do your research its a sad time and as I say there seems to be a need for a new system.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5013 on: June 25, 2021, 10:26:12 AM »
I just looked at assisted living dementia facilities in VA with my mother. for $6K/mo for a couple, they take care of most everything in a fancypants brand new facility.  Umm....that's $1.8M in perpetuity.  Really, this place is swanky. $4M for a couple is WAYYYY more than enough.  Way more.  That $6K number included the wine club with 2 glasses per night, and meals with a chef that cooks for English royalty.  (I'm not saying the English actually have good taste in food, but still.)  $4M is mostly overkill.  It make DH and I feel pretty darn good at our $2.6M number not including SS. As long as we cover our current spending and college costs, we should be golden.  Coast FI is in our reach.

Wow, here in my HCOL area, $6000+ is common for a single person with dementia in a nice, but not awesome place.  $8000 for a single person in a private room at the swanky but depressing place that looks like an Italian Villa.    Having had to place both my mom and grandma in facilities, I've looked at a few.

Just heard about filial responsibility laws.......wtf!!!

Had to look that up - Filial responsibility laws (filial support laws, filial piety laws) are laws in the United States that impose a duty, usually upon adult children, for the support of their impoverished parents or other relatives. ... Such laws may be enforced by governmental or private entities and may be at the state or national level.

Sorta makes sense though.  Fortunately not an issue for me, but I'd love to know if anyone knows anyone that has first hand experience...

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5014 on: June 25, 2021, 02:14:40 PM »
Not all states have filial responsibility requirements. 

I've been looking with my mom for a facility that she can live independently first and as needed, up her care.  This is not a memory care facility.  Outside of Boston, we're seeing on the order of about $5k for a 1 bedroom.  For assisted living (really just so many hours of care included), it's around $7k a month.  For full blown nursing home or memory care, $15k+ a month.  We're finding that all the local facilities are parts of a bigger umbrella company.  We have one 5 miles east of us and one 5 miles west.  The layouts are exactly the same.  Right down to the outside patio area with a walking trail that encircles the facility. 

Currently, my mom has stepped up getting help.  From her brother/sister in law, from insta cart, from a housekeeper.  She really would rather not go right now (I'm sure a lot of people see that), so has kicked into high gear the help to keep me off her back to get help or get out. 

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5015 on: June 25, 2021, 03:39:22 PM »
Filial laws.. Precisely why I told DW to NOT encourage her (lots of less than positive adjectives could be inserted here) Mother to move from Colorado to Oregon where we live.

Oregon has filial laws, Colorado does not.. Plus she is 1100 miles away which is almost far enough!

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5016 on: June 26, 2021, 07:14:44 AM »
Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5017 on: June 26, 2021, 09:33:39 AM »
Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Well the good news is that these laws get applied incredibly rarely.. Like I believe I found there is only one case in recent history after the recipient left the country and went to live in Greece (from memory here) and Medicaid or the facility was left holding the bag for lots of $$ worth of care. They sued the Son and the court decided he should pay the bill.

Like I said this is all a bit hazy in my brain, but it goes to show this is not a common thing to be forced to pay.

The problem of course is that as nursing home costs rise an seniors have less money then States might look at more creative ways to claw back $$ and if they have a filial law on the books it might look very tempting indeed if the senior has multi-millionaire children.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5018 on: June 26, 2021, 12:15:57 PM »
Eye-opening; I'll admit to not knowing that such a law existed.  And I see the state my parents live in (Ohio) is on the list of 30 states that apparently do have filial laws.  What a land mine and just when you're starting to see light at the end of the tunnel by getting kids mostly through school / graduate school.  Depressing....

Well the good news is that these laws get applied incredibly rarely.. Like I believe I found there is only one case in recent history after the recipient left the country and went to live in Greece (from memory here) and Medicaid or the facility was left holding the bag for lots of $$ worth of care. They sued the Son and the court decided he should pay the bill.

Like I said this is all a bit hazy in my brain, but it goes to show this is not a common thing to be forced to pay.

The problem of course is that as nursing home costs rise an seniors have less money then States might look at more creative ways to claw back $$ and if they have a filial law on the books it might look very tempting indeed if the senior has multi-millionaire children.


Thank you - that is somewhat reassuring!  Still surprises me that this is even possible without the child actually co-signing or taking some pro-active action to assume the liability. 

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5019 on: June 26, 2021, 01:35:55 PM »
Oh its possible alright.. Its the law!

wannabe-stache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5020 on: June 27, 2021, 07:09:46 PM »
How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working. 

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5021 on: June 27, 2021, 07:28:59 PM »
How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.
Lol, in the old days we gave @Exflyboy so much shit for not pulling the trigger. @Bateaux still takes crap from us old timers regularly. Nobody gets to their deathbed wishing they'd worked more and/or spent less time with their loved ones. Do whatever you want, it's your life. Just don't expect a lot of support for your decision on a forum dedicated to the pursuit of FIRE.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5022 on: June 27, 2021, 07:44:21 PM »
How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.

Ok, what if 2000-2009 happens again.   With a $160,000 spend, you're at a 2.76% withdrawal rate PLUS you have 1.5M in home equity to draw on in a pinch.   Let's say the worldwide market drops in value 50% AND just keeps pace with inflation for years.    How many years before you run thru your stash?   $2,400,000 / 160,000 = 15 years.    That assumes you don't tap into your home equity to keep from drawing down your stash and you only cut your spending enough to cover the HELOC payments.   That HELOC could provide you 5 years before you had to touch your stash and that's assuming your home value takes a hit, too!

Short of a WWIII or Zombie apocalypse kind of catastrophe, this is a worst case scenario for way more than you actually spend now!

There are so many things you could do to cut your spending and therefore the draw on your home equity and stash, none of which include actually doing a bit of part time work during that time.

So, WTF do you care if the market drops and stagnates for awhile?    It's simply an irrational fear.

As for health care costs, the only reason health care costs are ludicrously high in the USA is because we the people allow ourselves to be thoroughly fleeced by the health care system.    That may well change.

If it doesn't, you could easily move to one of a host of wonderful countries where health care and other costs aren't expensive at all.   The savings on health care alone could cover plane tickets for your family to visit you or vice-versa, possibly multiple times a year, depending on the size of the family and the country you choose.

There are many options here, including medical tourism instead of moving to another country.   

The sad reality is that if you or your spouse's health (or both) get so bad that it would swamp your stash, you wouldn't be able to work and what little you would have added to it by continuing to work would be a drop in the bucket of that medical debt.

Again, these are irrational fears.


Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level.

Josiecat23503

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5023 on: June 27, 2021, 07:52:54 PM »
 @wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

wannabe-stache

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5024 on: June 27, 2021, 08:33:16 PM »
@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum Iím fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5025 on: June 27, 2021, 09:56:28 PM »
@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first   3d  thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum Iím fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.
Fixed that for you.   

Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5026 on: June 27, 2021, 11:16:01 PM »
Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.

Damn skippy we've had those fears!    We went thru some hedonic adaptation AND 2MY (Two More Years) Syndrome before we retired.   And it was STILL scary!

The fears we had were real.   It took us two years to work thru that no, really, we had God's plenty of money and a damn good plan and I've lost count of how many safety features in our plan -- it was a running joke from readers of my status reports that my hobby seemed to be manufacturing safety features for our retirement plan.    Then again, we have a mentally handicapped daughter who simply cannot provide for herself, so if we got it wrong, she was the one who would suffer, as would our son who would have to support her out of his own retirement savings.   

That's why I said your fears are real and have to be respected and dealt with.   And it will take time and effort on your part to do that.   I would check our net worth weekly or whenever the market moved a fair bit.   I got used to watching our net worth change up or down 30-50k in a day.   We had already been thru two crashes and never had the slightest inkling of a need to panic and sell at the bottom, so at least we had that going for us coming into the home stretch.   

I sat down and said, how will we deal with the market going down and staying down for a longish while?   

Answer?    Diversify into rental real estate and sharecropped farmland and also have things in diverse stock/bond holdings, i.e., index funds.   Let social security be additional gravy rather than an essential part of the plan.     

Answer?   Have a cash cushion for the first two years.

Answer?   Don't let ourselves splurge for at least two years.

Answer?   Have lots of optional fluff we could happily live without in our spending plans so we could drop our need to draw down the stash.

Answer?   Keep some skills up for a few years so I could get another job if need be.   Not really an option for my wife and her career.

Answer?   Keep our rentals properly maintained at all times so we would have statistically fewer hits on our stash while we were going thru bad times.   Plan for those expenses and attempt to front-load as many of them as possible before retirement.

Answer?   Keep our tenants happy by properly maintaining the property at all times and by treating them with respect and kindness.   

That's just a fraction of the things we did to harden our plan against the fickle finger of fate.

We didn't just "fear", we used that fear as a spotlight on any possible gaps in our planning.   We dealt with our fear.

If the response to fear is just being afraid, it doesn't go away, it tends to get bigger.    Drag it out into the light of an adaptable, resilient plan and use that plan to bludgeon it into a mere controlled concern.

At your spend level vs your stash size, you have a massive number of years to adjust and prepare yourself, even if you do have to go back to work.   You could afford to get a batchelor's and master's degree in an entirely new field if, for example, your prior occupation of, say, computer punch card puncher, went the way of the dodo.   You could even take a year off after college as a gap year. :)

Your SWR assuming your stash is in stocks and bonds is already a very low 2.76% at a $160,000 spend, which is higher than you say you are spending including taxes.    That's an extremely safe withdrawal rate.   Cutting your spending to $130,000, which including taxes is still probably more than you're planned $100,000 spend, and a full time minimum wage job between you and your spouse, would cut your SWR down to a bit below a 2% SWR from your current stash.   

That's why I say your fears are real but irrational.   

You've got this finance game won.    You just need to learn to live with it.

I hope this longer version of my original message is more useful to you.   


Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5027 on: June 27, 2021, 11:25:44 PM »
@wannabe-stache-- I hear you.  We are in the "and beyond" territory, but kept working for years as we went through the full iteration of the what ifs.  You have to work through your own process, but this thought is what finally got me to FIRE:

The money actually has no value in and of itself.  It represents choices and freedom.  The more you have, the more choices and freedom you have.  I can't tell you that 2008-9 isn't going to happen again. Or that healthcare isn't going to sky rocket again.  Or any other of a million scenarios that flash through your mind at 2am.  What I can tell you is that you will age regardless of how much money you have in the bank.  Your children will continue to grow and develop and hit milestones whether you are home to see it or in an office.  You can ALWAYS make more money.  You cannot make more time.  At a net worth in excess of 7 million dollars there are vanishingly few situations with a financial solution that you cannot handle.  You have a HUGE number of choices (to relocate, downsize your home, pay cash for gold tier health plans, etc).  The ability to make those choices equals freedom.  Live the life you choose to live.  You have enough money.

Best, JC23503

Thanks for the first   3d  thoughtful response to my post. Comments like yours are the ones that keep me coming back to MMM instead of going to bogleheads permanently. On that forum Iím fairly average and folks would recommend I work for another 10 years.
Fixed that for you.   

Both Dicey and Swordguy gave measured, thoughtful, responses to your post. 

Swordguy went point-by-point to address your issues and then noted that you have "Real fears, and thus they have to be respected and dealt with, but they are still irrational fears at your wealth and spending level."

Errr... what more do you want?   

Unlike Bogleheads, here at MMM (especially old-timers) we understand your fears, we've had them ourselves, but we trust the math.
Thanks @markbike528CBX, I also batsignalled two experts for their help.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5028 on: June 27, 2021, 11:54:20 PM »
@wannabe-stache

At the risk of sounding like a  hypocrite, it's time for you to pull.  I'm not in your league.  Add all our liquid (almost 3M) and real estate equity (400 K) together and we're not halfway where you are.  Get out with your youth.  I'll be 53 soon, my youth is shot.  Working to 55 for me doesn't mean a whole lot.  That lost decade of my 40s is gone.  I'm in physical decline now due to age.  A lot of the adventures I could have done are no longer optional.  Now my goal is to lock in a reasonable health care plan with my employer.  That comes at 55 and not a day sooner.  If I were Canadian, I'd be gone right now.  I know my wife and I will both require expensive health care going forward.  We will likely require extended end of life care when the time comes.  That is the danger of working too long.  These things become highly predictable.  You are young enough still that such may be unknown.  You've got a huge stack of dollars.  Go enjoy it.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5029 on: June 28, 2021, 02:38:56 PM »
Ahh the trials of having too much money..:)

Like @Bateaux I too am a huge hypocrite. I.e my WR was 0.69% last year. I have two rentals that I don't need but hate being in the Landlord business. Last week I was replacing my roof in 90F blazing Sun because I could do it all for $3500 vs $16,000 by contracting it out.

I mean. I have $2.9M in savings, no mortgage, small pensions and can live on $35k per year if we had to!

But honestly.. working? There just comes a point when you just don't have to. It took me a long time actually pull the plug though, hence I got thoroughly ribbed on this forum as a result.. And rightly so..:)

Oh.. I am "considering" wandering down to the Subaru dealership and handing over a check for a brand new car... The anxiety level is high with this idea!

LightTripper

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5030 on: June 28, 2021, 03:21:54 PM »
One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5031 on: June 28, 2021, 05:41:04 PM »
My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5032 on: June 28, 2021, 06:48:52 PM »
My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5033 on: June 29, 2021, 08:44:38 AM »
My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

You know - I got to wondering.  Just what percentage of people in the US make about $33,000. (or less)

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/

If I read the stuff in the link right, it's about a quarter of the entire US population.  I guess that means a lot of them could get Obamacare.  I'll bet it won't take long for employers to figure that out and drop health care.  It ain't going away as it serves a real need. 

Wikipedia seems to roughly match it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I see faint handwriting on the wall that this is going to lead to some form of National Healthcare.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5034 on: June 29, 2021, 09:23:09 AM »
Yup.. And in 2022 the ACA will be improved significantly whereby you can go to any ER in the country and never be charged more than your out of network rates!

Of course as retirees with appreciated assets then $33k of income can mean significantly less than actual money available to spend.

What was that about "only the little people pay taxes"..

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5035 on: June 29, 2021, 09:33:21 AM »
How many folks here have been in this group from the start but just keep working because they may want to allow for lifestyle creep?  at least 1-2 years ago i thought i would stop working at some $ figure and assumed i would hit it in 2023-2025.

turns out i hit it much earlier, but i continue to work.  DW and i are at $5.8mm NW without the $1.5M in home equity.  Last year combined i think we hit $1.5MM in taxable income.  that won't happen again - that was at least $800K of RSU income, but still.

i think we spend $100K/year before taxes.  But, the "what ifs" haunt me.  what if 2000-2009 happens again?  what if the cost of health care sky rockets (we are 38 and 41 y/o with 2 kids)?

most people on this thread seem to be more MMM than bogleheads and i am afraid i fit into the latter.  that's why i assume i feel pressured to continue working.

@wannabe-stache, far be it from me to advise you from a personal perspective, as my situation is not comparable to yours.  However, if it is a fear of a black swan event or a massive market correction that has you worried, you can look at Buffer ETFs to help mitigate that risk.  Yes, they do charge fees, but they will help limit your downside risk in exchange for a cap on your upside.  For example, the one I'm looking at (Innovator S&P 500 Power Buffer ETF) is a 1 year ETF that pays you the market return on the S&P 500 for 12 months, but caps it at 7.77% and in exchange for that you get protection against the first 15% (percentage points) of negative return in the S&P500 over that period.  Certainly not a strategy for 100% of your investable assets, but it might help you sleep better at night if you had a portion allocated to something like this.   Perhaps you have a financial advisor and are already aware of this -- if so -- apologies for the oxygen consumed.

On the personal side, the only advise this novice will offer is to revisit what your exit strategy was when your FIRE journey began and ask yourself if you have achieved what your goals were at that time.  I will admit this is easier said than done, because "goal creep" enters into the picture.  But worth reflecting on what your plan was 3-4 years ago and then how you presently compare to that profile. 

We would probably all be well-served to do that from time to time.  My problem is that I change my goals and then I don't keep a memory of what they were 2 years ago, etc.

My 2 cents, probably worth the price paid. 

2KidFIRE

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5036 on: June 29, 2021, 09:46:24 AM »
If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

jeroly

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5037 on: June 29, 2021, 01:41:39 PM »
My original numbers were $2.0M and a paid off house in a LCOL area ($500K max) given our spending without children.  DH just got a package at work, and while we've only been processing things for 11 days, our investment assets went up $25K, and the cash will continue to come in for another 2 years to cover our current spending.  Health care is the big ? for most of us.  The weird thing about medicare is it seems to be skewed to INCOME vs ASSETS.  So as long as you don't need a huge income with those huge assets, you are eligible for subsidies.  I don't see that going away any time soon.  That being said, we're on the + side of 50, so our time to wait for medicare age-benefit health care is more limited.

Set your "income" to to around $33k and you can get a Bronze plan for roughly free.. Or a Silver plan for a little more $$ each month and have lower deductibles.

Note if you live mainly on after tax sale of assets held > 1 year, then money you get will be less than Income and you'll pay $zero fed income tax..:)

You know - I got to wondering.  Just what percentage of people in the US make about $33,000. (or less)

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/

If I read the stuff in the link right, it's about a quarter of the entire US population.  I guess that means a lot of them could get Obamacare.  I'll bet it won't take long for employers to figure that out and drop health care.  It ain't going away as it serves a real need. 

Wikipedia seems to roughly match it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I see faint handwriting on the wall that this is going to lead to some form of National Healthcare.
I believe that employers with >50 employees must provide health insurance or face penalties.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5038 on: June 29, 2021, 02:52:33 PM »
Our household NW ended the day at $2.999m. Couldnít quite break that $3m for the first time!

And yet I am still working. I am definitely not mustachian.


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Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5039 on: June 30, 2021, 08:28:39 AM »
If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5040 on: June 30, 2021, 09:24:28 AM »
If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5041 on: June 30, 2021, 10:35:14 AM »
One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Every day, I will experience three different thoughts: retire now, retire next year, or retire some years later. A decision to retire is quite difficult to make, particularly if there is no way to come back or take on any job ever.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5042 on: June 30, 2021, 12:46:44 PM »
One of the main reasons I'm very quiet on this thread is that I clearly shouldn't be working but somehow still am (albeit part time these days, and definitely on a glide path out - promise!)

Every day, I will experience three different thoughts: retire now, retire next year, or retire some years later. A decision to retire is quite difficult to make, particularly if there is no way to come back or take on any job ever.

About every week the thought crosses my head, "Should I go back to work?"
Immediately after the following thought occurs, "Nah!"

Josiecat23503

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5043 on: June 30, 2021, 04:42:33 PM »
I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5044 on: June 30, 2021, 05:49:55 PM »
If it helps @wannabe-stache , my wife and I are currently at ~$3.5M in assets (excluding home equity), similar age as you and your wife, 2 kids, very similar spending level, and we're planning to retire at the end of the year!  It's hard to get your head in the right place, but with your assets and spending I think you've got it no problem :)

Hey, how did you get in my head?

Same assets....2 kids, but they're both in their 20s and still living at home and both with jobs.  Although I suspect I'm older (64).  At 51 times spending, I know mathematically, I (and DW) could easily quit.  We're both from blue collar, work hard, pay our own ways through college backgrounds.  So it doesn't "feel" right to stop working where I could keep going.  DW will probably drive our end, which I suspect will be end of this year/start of next year. 

I've mentioned in the DIY thread how I did some repair on my 20 year old chainsaw to keep it going.  Well, something else went wrong and I realized that this saw is like an old 2 cycle motorcycle.  Use for 20 minutes, then fix it for an hour.  I was given the OK on Father's day to buy a new chainsaw.  I'm going to do that today.  Getting $475 for my tradeline sales this month pushed me over the edge (the saw is about $650).  I'll retire the old saw, pull the guide and chain for continued use and perhaps either craigslist it or harvest parts in the future.  I can't believe how much attention and time I've put into this stupid saw.

Wow, I'm way too spendy to be on this site anymore!  I just don't see the point in not spending if my NW keeps going up every year no matter what I seem to spend.  I don't really care about retirement and I like trying new things.    I can't wait to get back to travel though, starting in August!  I managed to spend $80k on travel in 2019, so that gave me a lot of wiggle room in 2020 to do things other than travel.  I am very thankful for my earlier Mustachianism that got me here, but I'm also not going to disappoint that 20-something yo guy that gave me the go-ahead to spend more once I hit FI :)

$80k of travel in one year.....I really want to know what you did. Please tell, I won't judge!   One it's a boatload on travel (some here would say that amount would be a boatload if that was your entire spending), two I would think a boatload of travel would take aot of time and therefore you must get a lot of time off if still working, three it's a boatload of travel spend. 

Must have been an awesome year which in hindsight was good timing.



tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5045 on: June 30, 2021, 05:58:04 PM »
I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

I don't know where my line is for going back to work.  Mainly because I am not really employable.....I mean when managers are hiring and ask "What do you envision working for us?" They tend not to like hearing "Well, I plan to do what I want, when I want and expect to have flexible hours and a lot of time off!"

Besides, if markets get to a point that I "Have" to go go back to work there are probably far greater issues at large and employment options will likely be scarce.   Jobs are like credit....easy to get when you don't need one, hard to get when you do. 

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5046 on: June 30, 2021, 06:23:37 PM »
The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5047 on: June 30, 2021, 06:24:40 PM »
The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)
Still 3k shy of $3m, what a tease.


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G-dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5048 on: June 30, 2021, 06:28:27 PM »
The recent stock and real estate upsurge have lifted us over the $3M threshold.   :)

Nice! Congratulations

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #5049 on: June 30, 2021, 09:29:18 PM »
I'm with @pecunia.  Once separated from work, there is NO WAY I'd go back. 

Even if there's a market crash.

I'd adjust my spending if necessary, but no amount of paid work can feel as good as owning my time.

I'm racing to the endpoint.   Once it's done.  It's done.