Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 859648 times)

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4950 on: June 09, 2021, 07:31:46 AM »
100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road Iím still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

You must not hate your job.  That's not so bad.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4951 on: June 09, 2021, 08:58:58 AM »
100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road Iím still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

You must not hate your job.  That's not so bad.

I get the impression, most folks want to hit the FI number one minute and flash the middle finger the next.  I totally get that from previous employers, projects, managers, co-workers...  but since 2007, I've had a really great work situation.  I guess it took putting up with 11 years of mostly crap to get me to appreciate how good things are now.  Hit FI years ago (don't even update my spreadsheets anymore) and still enjoy working. 

I'm not quite tap dancing in to the office like Warren or pulling the ER rip cord so I can spend more time on my 500M yacht and travel to space like Bezos, but I'm not going to complain :)  I'm already plenty wasteful with money, indulging in a lot of wants since I no longer have any needs that I can't afford.  Definitely one of those folks that have gone soft given the generous market conditions year after year...

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4952 on: June 09, 2021, 09:25:40 AM »
I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

i had a Honda civic hatchback that was a trooper for me as well long ago.  And the gas mileage was a bonus, I remember the first time a fill up cost me $10 I couldn't believe it (had like a 10 gallon tank or something? but would go forever, like when hybrids came out I couldn't believe the mileage they were bragging about given it was a lot worse than that what i was already getting with that civic).

4tify

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4953 on: June 09, 2021, 09:59:37 AM »
100 pages into this thread, and 4 years down the road Iím still working and pondering FIREing.

Things have not really panned out as planned.

Walking away from a job is proving harder than I imagined 100 pages ago.

+1. Iím having a hell of a time bailing as well. I donít hate my job but I donít exactly love it either. Feels like Iím a dog conditioned to the paycheck bone, and not 100% sure Iíd be happy FIREd.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4954 on: June 09, 2021, 11:43:08 AM »
Hey, if you have a good situation and like going to work, nothing says you have to RE.

I always wanted the option just in case things turned bad.  Hit my number and things were good, so I kept going.  Things went bad, I tried to make it better.  I couldn't, I left.  But if things had stayed good, I probably would have stayed and probably would have been happy with that choice.

If things go really bad, you can always be RE in a European resort or the Caribbean in about 48 hours.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4955 on: June 09, 2021, 01:37:41 PM »
I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.

i had a Honda civic hatchback that was a trooper for me as well long ago.  And the gas mileage was a bonus, I remember the first time a fill up cost me $10 I couldn't believe it (had like a 10 gallon tank or something? but would go forever, like when hybrids came out I couldn't believe the mileage they were bragging about given it was a lot worse than that what i was already getting with that civic).

Cars did seem to take a mileage drop from years past.  It was based on reality.

https://www.autotrader.com/car-tips/fuel-economy-why-dont-modern-cars-do-better-than-1980s-models-241487


2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4956 on: June 10, 2021, 03:06:47 AM »

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.


Yup, this is exactly the point I was trying to make! It just boggles my mind how far I have come. I remember for example how our net worth barely seemed to budge for a long time in the 2000s - but we just kept saving and investing. The payoff came 20 years later - we have been able to put our kids through college and live comfortably.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4957 on: June 10, 2021, 05:41:49 AM »

Yeah, isn't it crazy that plopping down cash for a new car may easily move your net worth less than the market does ON THAT DAY.


Yup, this is exactly the point I was trying to make! It just boggles my mind how far I have come. I remember for example how our net worth barely seemed to budge for a long time in the 2000s - but we just kept saving and investing. The payoff came 20 years later - we have been able to put our kids through college and live comfortably.

Ours has been oddly steady in its growth over the last 20 years (my income has always been all over the place year to year, and somehow seemed to spike to prop up the investments in bad market years), basically doubling every 3 or 4 years.  Of course those first couple of doubles were tiny moves compared to what that would be now, but it meant a lot to me then.  I remember when our investments hit around $200k and had the realization a work termination would no longer be a crisis, or even necessarily a bad thing, but rather a forced sabbatical....

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4958 on: June 10, 2021, 09:54:19 PM »
On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market. If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.


How often do we use the phrase?  lol

Nothing against my wife of three decades.   I love her dearly.  I just have so many irons in the fire it's hard to manage.  I think 2022 will be better.  I'm racing to get my shit straight to finally FIRE in 700 days.

texxan1

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4959 on: June 11, 2021, 05:39:24 AM »
On an 84 hour straight stint of night shifts.  I've considered selling everything.  I mean everything while it's a fools real estate market.  If I were single it would be done.  I'd live like a nomad.


Im with you Bateaux... if it wasnt for my future asian bride lol, id gone nomad when BP offered me my package.. Insane prices on homes... If i can sort it out, i may still do it till she gets her visa.... sell the house, two of the boats, and one other toy and that gives me 800k to add to my other accounts and that puts me in the AND BEYOND category with a size hussle that still makes me 100k a year....... NOMADS FOREVER lol.... if only i could find a way to have a camper and toy the boat lol

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4960 on: June 11, 2021, 08:17:17 AM »
I'm feeling both more retired and richer with each passing day.  The net worth is soaring beyond my wildest dreams and we're not doing anything but letting the days roll by.   We have disposable income for any reasonable or even somewhat unreasonable expenditure.   We're gearing up for travel in the autumn and into 2022, and relaxing at the new beach house in the meantime.    Life is good! 

aetheldrea

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4961 on: June 11, 2021, 08:48:53 AM »
Houses in our area are selling closer to 30% and more than what Zillow is saying. I dont think Zillow is keeping up. Never looked at Redfin. Actually was at a gathering last night and a realtor was there as well as a few contractor. The realtor actually is the grandson of the person who started the real-estate company which is the largest by far in our area. Him and he the contractors both said the same things. Unlike 2008 when this bubble bursts it wont be anything like last time. Houses will drop but prices at least in our area were down for so long that they see it slowing down but not crashing. They simply cant build houses fast enough and if anything its slowed down a bit because people are tired of missing out and are getting out now focusing on other things. But as others have said the Millenniums are just really getting started in this housing rise and they have the money to spend. Going to be interesting for sure.
But this time itís different (TM)
In 2006 I bought at turned out to be the peak of the housing market. Might have missed it by one week. I distinctly remember reading articles about how the housing developers had figured out how to manage supply and demand so that there would never be another housing crash, and if there was a downturn it would be so gradual that everyone would be fine. Things turned out rather differently, as I am sure they will this time also, in ways that are impossible to predict, and that we will only see the causes of in retrospect, like the collateralized debt obligations that were such a part of the previous crash.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4962 on: June 11, 2021, 09:22:32 AM »
I just bought a car for about $37k which is about 0.6% of our invested net worth. And just to think that 34 years ago, I bought my first car, a 7 year old Honda Civic for about $2000. That car lasted for 4 years and 40,000 miles and died only when I started work so it did its job very well.

Wow!  Good for you!  I've been wrestling with whether or not to replace the 11 year old Toyota for over a year and keep deferring the decision because it runs and serves its purpose at the moment.  But I'd like something newer, with better electronics, and better gas mileage.   The finance person in me just can't seem to pull the trigger on it though.  Maybe 2022 or 2023, when hopefully supply chains recover.   But suffice it to say that I fully expect my purchase would be more like 1.5+% of invested assets (due mostly to the fact that I have less invested assets - LOL).   If I could get to it being a 0.6% decision, I suspect it would be a lot easier for me.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4963 on: June 11, 2021, 09:34:18 PM »
As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Still holding the line at $2.029M LNW after a couple weeks.  I know we're likely to dip below $2M from time to time, but for now it's fun to see our balances staying (just) above that threshold.

The RE market has been pretty strong here as of late, and SmartZip now estimates our paid-off house at $472k.  Probably unrealistic, but I like how it makes our TNW +/- $2.5M.

LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4964 on: June 12, 2021, 05:01:23 PM »
OP needs to change the title of the thread to keep up with the times ...  and 'To the Moon!'

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4965 on: June 12, 2021, 06:24:37 PM »
Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4966 on: June 12, 2021, 06:53:48 PM »
Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.
We have a fat fire at this point too. But our financial advisor keeps trying to scare by assuming no social security, we live to age 100, 3 percent inflation forever and high health care costs in retirement. And I constantly remind him itís much more likely Iíll leave some family or charity well off, so Iíll retire when I want, regardless of his scare tactics.


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soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4967 on: June 13, 2021, 04:46:00 AM »
I dont know. Though Fire'd I am around the Building industry quite a bit having alot of friends in the industry and I kind of believe it wont crash like 08/9. I think it for sure will cool down but Areas like Florida with all the companies trying to move out of California to there will keep growing. Tx I think will continue to see growth no matter what as well as a few other places. Plus we will have awhile before companies can get full employed and so on. The thing that I could see happening is when we have the next correction it could be alot more than 50% or we could drop or move sideways for quite a long time. But I just keep doing my thing because can only plan as best as you can and go from there because after being fired for 6 years 3 months I am not going back to a Job! Things have been really good separate of Covid of course so just trying to enjoy what we have going on right now. And it has been fun to watch the NW go up. A lot of younger investors have really been spoiled and havent lived through major market corrections either. But hey , lets keep this party going! haha

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4968 on: June 13, 2021, 06:56:38 AM »
Similarly I added everything up, assumed a 3% (conservative) WR, pensions and SS and came up with and annual spend of $152,000.

Like thats three times what we spend in an expensive year! and does not include what we currently receive in rent.. I hope to be out of the Landlording business in the next 1 to 5 years.. Why am I even IN the rental business?

On the one hand this is all great because if we had to go into long term care we could probably cash flow it for 30 years and the worse that can happen is some charitable causes will get some fat checks at some point.. Especially Uncle Sam when RMD's kick in.
We have a fat fire at this point too. But our financial advisor keeps trying to scare by assuming no social security, we live to age 100, 3 percent inflation forever and high health care costs in retirement. And I constantly remind him itís much more likely Iíll leave some family or charity well off, so Iíll retire when I want, regardless of his scare tactics.


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Yeah, there's always some possibility of failure someone can easily figure out.  In the end I realized there's nothing working one or two more years would accomplish than being a little flexible in your withdraws wouldn't accomplish in most of these outlier scenarios (which is always an option unless leanFired).  And so in the end you're really deciding between working until you no longer can or just accepting there is always 'some financial risk' to retiring now over later.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4969 on: June 13, 2021, 04:11:36 PM »
Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4970 on: June 14, 2021, 08:13:31 AM »
Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

The funny thing was that once I internalized that I didn't need the employers, a great amount of the stress disappeared.  However, all of it did not.

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4971 on: June 14, 2021, 10:09:26 AM »
Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

Yeah, actually under the premise of maximizing number of successful RE days in ones life I started considering RE the moment FIRECALC said I had a 50% chance of success ('cause every day I worked past that would seem to lessen the total days retired), but of course most of us do think of unsuccessful FIRE at the backend (old and broke) as being more painful than those on the front end (working when maybe you don't need to), so we shoot for some higher number.

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Heh, I remember one morning my mom talking about having the pretty common college dream where you realize you haven't been going to a class all semester and the final is starting in an hour.....  She said she had no idea why she woke up stressed, given she was not only long since out of school, but long since retired...

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4972 on: June 14, 2021, 01:06:42 PM »
Rolled into the Florida house about daylight this morning.  Been busting butt at work or at the Louisiana house since Cinco de Mayo.  Glad to be back here.  I'm about to clean the pool with tropical music and a cold brew.  It's a short stay this time.  Driving back Sunday morning.  Plan to be back in August.  By then we'll be tracking hurricanes no doubt.  There is a low pressure system developing in the gulf now.  We could be driving back to flooding on the northern gulf coast.  Flooding doesn't effect our Florida home luckily.  I can't believe how quickly this year is passing and how much better things are than last year in general. 

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4973 on: June 15, 2021, 03:18:55 AM »
Exactly.. I would argue the risk of being dead from working a stressful job is far higher than running out of money after you're fat-fired.

The funny thing was that once I internalized that I didn't need the employers, a great amount of the stress disappeared.  However, all of it did not.

Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.


Agree with that statement a 100% @Exflyboy . I had dreams for years about still being in the office but they slowly faded away

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4974 on: June 16, 2021, 07:43:12 AM »
OP needs to change the title of the thread to keep up with the times ...  and 'To the Moon!'

Naw.  "To the Moon" sounds like Ralph Kramden in the Honeymooners.

"To infinity and beyond" is what?  Toy Story?  I don't know...some show my kids watched a decade ago.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4975 on: June 16, 2021, 10:21:04 AM »
How about $2M to $4M and,...

There is no limit not the moon or even the great beyond.

Until you spend it.

aetheldrea

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4976 on: June 16, 2021, 10:12:16 PM »
Even now - I have a dream about work once in a while.  They are silly dreams about some odd problem to be solved.  Then I wake up and it takes me a few seconds to realize, "I'm not working any more."  And then I smile.

Heh, I remember one morning my mom talking about having the pretty common college dream where you realize you haven't been going to a class all semester and the final is starting in an hour.....  She said she had no idea why she woke up stressed, given she was not only long since out of school, but long since retired...
My favorite part of the very dumb movie ďTop SecretĒ is when Val Kilmer is being beaten by the Nazis and loses consciousness and has a dream where he is back in high school but missed finals, oh no, Iím back in school, then wakes up and realizes he is only being beaten by Nazis, and gets a big smile on his face.

flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4977 on: June 19, 2021, 11:20:54 AM »
Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

ysette9

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4978 on: June 19, 2021, 03:41:59 PM »
I have had a couple of dreams about being back in the office, except they are always nice dreams that leave me a little nostalgic.

Being stuck at home caring for little kids 24/7/365/forever during Covid is 100x harder than working for Big Corporate 40 hours/week. If this is what FIRE was going to look like indefinitely Iíd go back to work in a heartbeat. Thank gods there is light at the end of the tunnel soon.

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4979 on: June 19, 2021, 06:52:53 PM »
Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

It's when you start thinking about time instead of money.  You could have written:

"Have an easy time to make a decision to retire. Although I don't know how much time we have left for most things we want to do, but more time is better.

There is no such thing as having more time.  I am always spend my time, and quickly."


EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4980 on: June 19, 2021, 07:10:27 PM »
Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

It's when you start thinking about time instead of money.  You could have written:

"Have an easy time to make a decision to retire. Although I don't know how much time we have left for most things we want to do, but more time is better.

There is no such thing as having more time.  I am always spending my time, and quickly."


I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!  You can use actuarial tables, divide it evenly, or just balance spending more now vs. using government programs later.  At some point, you are actually just helping Uncle Sam spend less...

Once you hit FI, it's all up to you just what you want.  If you want to keep making more, then no-one here is going to stop you!  Just don't be bitter when others get to inherit the fruits of your labor if that was not what you intended...

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4981 on: June 19, 2021, 08:37:33 PM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4982 on: June 19, 2021, 08:50:37 PM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4983 on: June 20, 2021, 06:18:10 AM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Yeah, but what EV said is not entirely false even though it's not the 4% rule (common parlance, not actually a rule) as studied and concluded because 4% is basically a worse case scenario so once you get past a SORR time-frame with your portfolio having grown AND your expected need for the funds decreases (lifespan) it is highly likely you can increase withdrawal and from principle without much risk of running out.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4984 on: June 20, 2021, 06:56:33 AM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)
!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we donít feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 07:02:47 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4985 on: June 20, 2021, 08:46:15 AM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)
!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we donít feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4986 on: June 20, 2021, 10:02:33 AM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)
!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we donít feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

What I was thinking when I was replying to Flyingaway is that most people probably think folks like Pete are crazy for living on $40k/yr because they retired with $1M, especially considering that he makes $400k/yr on his blog and his investments have probably doubled to $2M since 2007...  I guess I worry more that I will be too conservative in FIRE and never touch my stache...  Nothing wrong with that, but, in line with my name - once you've hit escape velocity, the stache will grow and grow....  nothing wrong with spending a bit of it .

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4987 on: June 21, 2021, 03:49:04 AM »
The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity

Err...no.

The 4% withdrawal rate is historically 95% safe over 30 years *including* drawdown of principal.  You don't get to take 4% *and* take some of the principal too.  (Well you can, but then that's not really following the 4% rule.)
!

It simply fascinates me how very many people in the FIRE community don't seem to understand how the 4% rule is defined.   Or that it's not a rule.  Or that it's not guaranteed.    Or how to calculate it.    (I'm ignoring people brand new to the FIRE movement in making those comments.)

Or it could just be that we are so familiar with it that we donít feel the need to be perfect and precise when discussing it in this thread

Sure.  Feel free to be imprecise; I was in my reply as well:  it's called the 4% rule but it isn't a rule.  Right.  Whatever.

But I thought that "I supposed I ultimately realized that I would not only have to spend the 4% recurring amount, but also some of the 'stache proportional to my remaining years...  The 4% WR is spending in perpetuity, but if you really are a spender, then also have at that principal!" was a pretty material misstatement and thought it best to make a mild effort to point that out for the benefit of people who aren't familiar.

What I was thinking when I was replying to Flyingaway is that most people probably think folks like Pete are crazy for living on $40k/yr because they retired with $1M, especially considering that he makes $400k/yr on his blog and his investments have probably doubled to $2M since 2007...  I guess I worry more that I will be too conservative in FIRE and never touch my stache...  Nothing wrong with that, but, in line with my name - once you've hit escape velocity, the stache will grow and grow....  nothing wrong with spending a bit of it .


But do you think he really does? thats a different topic in itself.

I know where your coming from EV and I do agree with SG as this is a topic that comes up so much and there is so much information on it that if you are here you should know it by now. Having said that the part of the "rule" always has bugged me as well because its usually referred to in the name but yet it is nothing more than a guideline. Plus it seems like so many people try to prove it wrong or right when in reality its again just a guide.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4988 on: June 21, 2021, 05:05:36 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

G-dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4989 on: June 21, 2021, 05:08:55 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh my, that is terrible.  The accident was bad enough, but now the coworkers have the additional trauma of someone (a friend) dying. 

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4990 on: June 21, 2021, 06:07:14 AM »
Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

For me personally, the "stop sign" was when our household net worth went above $5M. Also, my dad died of complications from Alzheimer's last year in his mid 80s. The last two years of his life were not pleasant - which made me realize that the time we have to enjoy our savings may be shorter than we realize.

What are the broad categories of things you like spending for?

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4991 on: June 21, 2021, 07:13:16 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?
I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart.

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 08:34:42 AM by Dicey »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4992 on: June 21, 2021, 08:23:19 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?
I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.

I'm with you on this one Dicey, Bateaux should take that one as a sign and email in his resignation!  I'm very finnicky about my lungs (and being alive) and I wouldn't go back to a place that just had a toxic gas release no matter what the financial situation was.  All the more crazy to go back having achieved FI and having a fun retirement to look forward to!  To each their own, but 692 more days doing something dangerous that you don't seem to want to do sounds borderline pathological at this point...

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4993 on: June 21, 2021, 09:16:11 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?
I've been biting my tongue on this subject for years. If an explosion, toxic gas release and the death of a colleague don't change bateaux's mind, I doubt any words I can string together will have any impact either, which kinda breaks my heart

My MIL just died last week, leaving behind at least $2M. She had ALZ for more a decade, and her husband died eight years ago. Fortunately, they did retire early-ish and traveled the world. Of course, those memories were lost forever, but they lived life to the fullest while they could.

I'm with you on this one Dicey, Bateaux should take that one as a sign and email in his resignation!  I'm very finnicky about my lungs (and being alive) and I wouldn't go back to a place that just had a toxic gas release no matter what the financial situation was.  All the more crazy to go back having achieved FI and having a fun retirement to look forward to!  To each their own, but 692 more days doing something dangerous that you don't seem to want to do sounds borderline pathological at this point...

Dicey I'm very sorry to hear about your Mother in Law.  I know you guys provided all the love and care possible.   

I'll revisit the possibility of quitting in January.  Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome on my part. 
Luckily the local news has been pretty hush about the incident and my elderly parents have no idea about it.  They'd be worried. 

flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4994 on: June 21, 2021, 12:14:55 PM »
Have a hard time to make a decision to retire. Although I know we have enough money for most things we want to do, but more money is better.

There is no such things as the money that I will never be able to spend. I can always find ways to spend money, and quickly.

So where is the STOP sign in "... Beyond"?

For me personally, the "stop sign" was when our household net worth went above $5M. Also, my dad died of complications from Alzheimer's last year in his mid 80s. The last two years of his life were not pleasant - which made me realize that the time we have to enjoy our savings may be shorter than we realize.

What are the broad categories of things you like spending for?

The category that I could spend a lot of money is entertainment. I like overseas travel and playing at casinos. These activities could be very expensive. Of course, I don't have to entertain myself if I don't have money. But retired and staying at home every day to save money is not a retirement life that I am looking forward to.

However, I do not like my job as an academics anymore. It is just difficult to actually to walk away from such an easy job.

4tify

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4995 on: June 21, 2021, 02:27:51 PM »
I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

JoJoP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4996 on: June 23, 2021, 07:39:22 AM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your coworker.   Your internet pal, JoJoP, sends condolences to your workforce and the family. 

Edited to add:  Sorry about your MIL, Dicey.   My condolences to your family as well.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:49:20 AM by JoJoP »

flyingaway

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4997 on: June 23, 2021, 08:28:14 AM »
I'm half way through Die With Zero and it's totally changing the way I'm thinking about saving & spending. Basically his idea is to maximize life experiences, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments against waiting until you die to give money to kids or charity etc.

I'm starting a bucket list of activities that require good health and pricing them out.

This calculator is also really helpful for overcoming worries about dying broke: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

I like the idea of giving out money to children when you are still alive and see how they enjoy that gift. It is, however, very difficult to see how much money you really need when you are still in your 50s or 60s, especially many on this forum are talking about retiring as soon as they reach their numbers.

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Re: Race from $2M to $3M
« Reply #4998 on: June 23, 2021, 08:36:01 AM »
I'm probably working till about June 2019.  I want to say I retired at 50 and that's the last month to make the claim.   Gives us time to fund two more rounds of 401ks and Roth IRAs.  Will start HSA then as well.  Our youngest is headed to trade school and should finish up about then.  Gives me time to hike the AT SOBO south from Maine.   Going to use vacation time to start working north from GA early 2019 for a few hundred miles. 
Then not sure presently where we go.  Hope to spend about half of what the 2M will yield so it can grow. Will probably find work if it dips below 2M for very long.

Accidentally went to page 1 of this thread and lookee! lookee! what I found!

Dude, at least make your wife promise to come online and tell us you got blown to kingdom come if you decide to keep working and don't make it thru your FMY (Four More Years) Syndrome...

That was said with much affection...

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #4999 on: June 23, 2021, 12:07:06 PM »
Looks like I picked a great week to be away from work.  We had an explosion, toxic gas realese and death on site.  The worker wasn't killed directly by the event, unless running for your life and having a heart attack during applies.  My coworkers tried to save him with CPR, while themselves under threat for their own safety.  692 days more of rolling the dice for survival.

I think being terrified for your life does indeed apply.  I wonder if OSHA thinks so.  I was taught that there are acute hazards that happen right away like explosions or electrocution and then there are the chronic things, i.e. chemical exposures, breathing asbestos fibers, breathing particulates,sun exposure etc.  It sounds like your workplace probably has both.  So, you might have missed the explosion, but there could be something long term that could get you too.  The longer you stay in a place like that the higher the odds of chronic exposure getting you.

That's another good reason to be retired. :)