Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

[Exflyboy]

How would pensions and SS figure into net worth?  Wouldn't they be more like reliable sources of income?  My thinking is that you don't "own" them, you simply can use them while you're alive, which would certainly offset the need for more savings/net worth.   Or can pensions be cashed out?  I don't know as I've always been self employed.

The teachers in Kentucky wish their's could be cashed out! Their system is basically bankrupt and a number of state pension schemes are not far behind.

Miners in Virginia are likely to theirs too.

So sad but you can't rely on anyone for your financial well being in retirement,

[FIREstache]

I include my house in my net worth since net worth includes it by definition, but I don't include it in my "stash" figure.  And it's my stash figure that I do all my calculations against.   I pretty much ignore my NW because it's meaningless for my retirement plans.  It's all about the stash.  I'm already in a LCOL area, so even if I move, I'm not likely to have any significant change in my NW or stash, either one.  The stash matters.

[SwordGuy]

Less than 3 years from the $3M mark if we coast as is and get average market returns.   Not bad for a couple of retired people.

Might do it a year faster if I find a few renovation deals for rental properties and energetically fix them up.

[itchyfeet]

Big news.... very excited.

I turned down the job in Philly and opted to FIRE instead. Thinking of 30 April next year.

Olympics are booked for a July/ Aug.

Ready to start the next, free, chapter of my life.

[Exflyboy]

Big news.... very excited.

I turned down the job in Philly and opted to FIRE instead. Thinking of 30 April next year.

Olympics are booked for a July/ Aug.

Ready to start the next, free, chapter of my life.

Excellent news!.. Well done..:)

[Threshkin]

We are at 45x right now but my wife still gets worried thinking that we will wind up impoverished in a homeless shelter :-)

I've run all the calculators and have managed to assuage her fears a little. She now has no problem with at least me retiring within the next year while she continues to work - progress!

I am in the same boat.  I FIREd 2.5 years ago, currently at 45x budgeted expenses (which are significantly higher than actual) and my DW is worried we will run out of money and wants to keep working.

I think the "must have a regular paycheck to survive" attitude is very common.  It is why taking SS ASAP, Reverse Mortgages and Annuities are so common.  All of them are paycheck replacements.

[Threshkin]

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

[pecunia]

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

How can you count Social Security as net worth?  I guess it is sort of an investment.  You've put in a lot of time and payments to get it.  However, it's really not a tangible asset.  There's no way you can cash it in and move to Guatemala.  Or is there?  You guys know all the angles.

[Bateaux]

I don't count houses.   Mine aren't making money.  They are money pits so I see  my personal real estate as a wash. I count 401K, IRA and taxable accounts. I do count my pension because it has a cash value.  By the time we FIRE, most likely we'll qualify for the club minus pension as well.  Considering the 4% rule, which would be 80K income on investments.  We're blowing that out of the water.  I'm sure those investors in real estate that do so for income are as well.  It's not so much how much you have, how much does what you
 have earn.   We're at 1.5M in stock market investment.   So on average that's 150K a year.  Almost 400K pension earning a fixed 5% so 20K.  Another 250K in bonds.  Doesn't make squat, maybe 5K to 10K.  So since we're not FIRE yet an average year it grows 175K.  We're tossing in another 75K.  Sooo...250K a year in net worth growth on average till FIRE.  Hell, I may never quit!

[Fomerly known as something]

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

That's excellent that you have a DAF, but why do you count it In your NW? Once you contribute to it, the money is irrevocably out of your control except to designate which charity to direct it to and how big the check will be. I understand that having a DAF lets you continue to give charitably, which I wholeheartedly endorse, but not how it increases your bottom line, especially in the context of this thread.

Why?  I put it into the DAF because it was adventurous to do so now for tax purposes.  I still count it because later, the actual donations to the charity will come from the DAF instead of other accounts.  I count it until it is spent in the same manner that I count any designated savings.  The only difference is I can't take it "back" for another purpose besides charity. 

[Fomerly known as something]

How I count.

For here I count my pension as I am vested.  I know it is worth $26,000 a year in 2040 if I quit today, so I count it at a discounter 25x value.

You are way, way, way overvaluing your pension.
The proper way to value your pension is to price a deferred annuity that pays $26,000 a year.  I priced an annuity for a 44-year-old woman (which will be pricier than for a man and hence yield a higher value) starting at age 65 and get a price of approximately $200,000 or slightly less than 8x the payout.

The difference is based on the fact that your pension has no residual value when you die, while on average your investments supporting a 4% payout will actually grow to be worth more than they are when you start the withdrawals.

I discount it greatly, not 25x value, I can't say I use annuity value, it's a lot more fuzzy.  More than anything it's a hey I have this thing out there it is worth something as my pension does not have an cash value.

ETA:  When I think about my pension is reality it is in relation to it what I don't personally have to save for FIRE.  Which is why I give it any fuzzy value at all.  The fuzzy value is based on plan rules.   

[Dicey]

I count all my other accounts to include my DAF.  Charitable giving is something I do and will continue to do when I RE, so the DAF is predesignated money for that.

That's excellent that you have a DAF, but why do you count it In your NW? Once you contribute to it, the money is irrevocably out of your control except to designate which charity to direct it to and how big the check will be. I understand that having a DAF lets you continue to give charitably, which I wholeheartedly endorse, but not how it increases your bottom line, especially in the context of this thread.

Why?  I put it into the DAF because it was adventurous to do so now for tax purposes.  I still count it because later, the actual donations to the charity will come from the DAF instead of other accounts.  I count it until it is spent in the same manner that I count any designated savings.  The only difference is I can't take it "back" for another purpose besides charity.

Uh, okay. Money forever out of my control is not an asset I would count, so I don't even think about what's in my DAF, except to hope the market does well so it grows. Beyond that, it's a sunk cost, IMO. But hey, I'm glad you have one and that you give to charity. That's what matters most. And I'm guessing that's an autocorrect for "advantageous". Setting mine up wasn't adventurous at all. Rather boring, actually.

ETA: I admit, giving it away is rather fun.

[soccerluvof4]

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

The reason I don't count the 529's is just the opposite. Its money saved thats spent. But I can see your rational

[Dicey]

Don't count SS since it is a long way off.  Do count the 529 since it is money I won't have to spend when the kids are in college (plan to graduate them debt free).  Don't count the home equity since I plan to live in the house for a long time and would not tap the equity.  Other than that, everything else will eventually be mine (Employee Stock Purchase Plan, Pension fund lump sum value, 401ks, HSA, bank accounts (with current exchange rates), etc.  Don't count assets like cars and expensive items we have collected overseas, although we could probably sell these things for a nice chunk of money. 

At one point I discounted some of the items for taxes and potential penalties, since I'll end up paying at some point, but it became too complicated.  It's something I will just try to optimize.  I look at it as an upside to early retirement, reducing the amount I need to convert from pre-tax to Roth.

The reason I don't count the 529's is just the opposite. Its money saved thats spent. But I can see your rational

Ha! We started a 529 for our granddaughter instead of giving her pink plastic crap on occasions of note. I didn't even remember it to add to my list. For me, it's gone, just like the DAF. Once it's out of my direct control, It's off my radar.

[Car Jack]

Nobody ever defined the membership rules for this club.

With all due respect, I defined it in the first post when I started this thread.

As with the "2" thread, I'm counting investable assets.  Not house, not rental property, not cars, not silver coins.  Too easy to cheat with stuff that needs to be valued, in my humble opinion.

The intent of defining it this way was to say that what you're counting is what you could reasonably liquidate to live on right now.  You wouldn't liquidate your house right now, so it doesn't count.  Note that this has nothing to do with net worth. 

Other things might be available IF (big if) you could liquidate it in....lets say 2 weeks and it could then be spent to support you.  A pension?  Sure....IF (again, big if), you have a lump sum option that you qualify to cash in now.  I have a lump sum option in a small pension worth about $50k.  But it isn't available until I hit 65, so it's worth zero.

So I hope this helps define what we're counting.

[Bateaux]

I'm so ready to post here with 2M liquid, NW I'm pretty legit.   Y'all are the cool kids!

CarJack, I cheated for a bit.  We're legit now.  Thanks for the thread and the rules in your first post.

[dogboyslim]

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

[BeanCounter]

In my NW number, I don't count anything that isn't liquid or anything that is specifically earmarked for an expense (other than retirement). So no house, no 529, no HSA. Just the money I plan to tap into when we FIRE. I do include our 403B's and 401A because I believe we could tap into them with 72t rule. However I believe we will have enough in non retirement accounts and roth contributions to make it to 59.5 so hopefully it won't be necessary.

[pecunia]

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

Ummmm, Yessss - Perhaps you should discuss this with my butler or my chauffeur.  Matters of the hoi polloi no longer concern me.

[Dicey]

The rich get richer and most of us work for them.

If you are posting in this thread, you ARE them (the rich), regardless of who you work for.

Ummmm, Yessss - Perhaps you should discuss this with my butler or my chauffeur.  Matters of the hoi polloi no longer concern me.

Ah, bless you for using the term correctly.

[Exflyboy]

it could always be worse..:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xujHlWzWW98

[MiserlyMiser]

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW. 

[SwordGuy]

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW.

And you would be wrong to do so.

Net worth means a very specific thing.   It is what you own minus what you owe.  Period.  Your house belongs in any valid net worth measurement.


As for making future FIRE plans, that's a very different thing.   Net worth means nothing in that regard.  Your sustainable passive income is what matters.   So, you should be measuring your sustainable passive income, which can come in many different forms. 

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

I measure passive income from social security, disability, farm income, rental house income, and a stock/bond portfolio.   Net worth is useless for all of them, including your modified definition of net worth.

[RWD]

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

+1.  You're welcome to measure/track whatever you want. But don't call it net worth if it's not actually your net worth.

[MiserlyMiser]

Thanks for your advice.

I don't count my home equity in my NW, but I also don't subtract my mortgage. 

My house's valuation has gone down from what I paid (in 2006), but I'm not underwater--when/if I sell, I'll at least make something.  For purposes of making future plans, I think it's more accurate to use my liquid investments and count my mortgage as a monthly expense than it would be to factor my home & mortgage into NW.

And you would be wrong to do so.

Net worth means a very specific thing.   It is what you own minus what you owe.  Period.  Your house belongs in any valid net worth measurement.


As for making future FIRE plans, that's a very different thing.   Net worth means nothing in that regard.  Your sustainable passive income is what matters.   So, you should be measuring your sustainable passive income, which can come in many different forms. 

Don't screw around with the meaning of Net Worth because you want a different measurement.   Just use the measurement you need instead.   

I measure passive income from social security, disability, farm income, rental house income, and a stock/bond portfolio.   Net worth is useless for all of them, including your modified definition of net worth.

Thanks for your advice.

[Threshkin]

I count all tax deferred and open market investments, cash reserves, and the house because it is paid off and is quite liquid.

I do not count SS, the 529 account or our HSAs.

For comparison: Our kids are past college age and we live in a MCOLA.

How can you count Social Security as net worth?  I guess it is sort of an investment.  You've put in a lot of time and payments to get it.  However, it's really not a tangible asset.  There's no way you can cash it in and move to Guatemala.  Or is there?  You guys know all the angles.

I don't count SS in my net worth (balance sheet).  But I do include it in my cash flow projections, at a discounted rate.  It will effectively reduce the withdrawal amounts from our portfolio accounts.

BTW: While you cannot "cash in" your SS and move the Guatemala you can move there and still collect SS.  There are only a few countries in the world there you cannot collect SS if you live there.  North Korea is one example.

[pecunia]

- SNIP -

I don't count SS in my net worth (balance sheet).  But I do include it in my cash flow projections, at a discounted rate.  It will effectively reduce the withdrawal amounts from our portfolio accounts.

BTW: While you cannot "cash in" your SS and move the Guatemala you can move there and still collect SS.  There are only a few countries in the world there you cannot collect SS if you live there.  North Korea is one example.

Got It.  No plans to move to North Korea.

[Bateaux]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

[ysette9]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

It was great! 4 days off from work in a row. Had some out of town friends over and we picnicked in our backyard, chatted, and let the kids run amok.

[Dicey]

OMG, DH had eight days off and except for a brief concert/picnic in the park on the 4th, all we did was work on the damn flip house. Hopefully, it will all come together soon.

Somewhere upthread, the subject of fat cash reserves came up. We keep a shitload of cash liquid so we can flip houses. We've got almost $300k of that cash into this project, and the well ain't quite dry yet. It will be nice to get that $$$ back and hopefully enough extra to make it worth our effort. Time will tell.

[2sk22]

Spent five enjoyable days catching up on the latest research in natural language processing and neural networks in the cool comfort of my basement. Built a plastic structure model for my model train layout. Drank some good beer.

Now: groaning at some ridiculously boring task I have to get done at work. Not sure how much longer I can last at this grind.

[Car Jack]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

[pecunia]

- SNIP -

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

Anybody out there who doesn't think these medical insurance systems are rigged?

I only hear good medical stories from the Canadians.  Maybe, they are all too polite to complain.

[jeroly]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

An alternative approach could be to go to the website of the clinic you're interested in and see if they take your insurance.  For example, looking at CVS Minute Clinic's page, it lists a whole bunch of Cigna plans that it takes.  See attached image for the start of the list.

[ysette9]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

I’m so sorry. That is infuriating.

Is kaiser an option where you live?

[Exflyboy]

Best healthcare system in the World!.. So the lobbyests tell me...

[Exflyboy]

- SNIP -

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

Anybody out there who doesn't think these medical insurance systems are rigged?

I only hear good medical stories from the Canadians.  Maybe, they are all too polite to complain.

Well the Brits complain and sometimes rightly so. The thing is though is no British person has the faintest idea of what you're talking about when you say "medical bankruptcy".. No idea! it just doesn't happen.. ever!

[jdfergason]

Spent five enjoyable days catching up on the latest research in natural language processing and neural networks in the cool comfort of my basement. Built a plastic structure model for my model train layout. Drank some good beer.

Now: groaning at some ridiculously boring task I have to get done at work. Not sure how much longer I can last at this grind.

most people would call me crazy but that sounds like my kind of holiday!

[soccerluvof4]

Simply put I feel I am still exhausted as we had a great but over indulged week of fun for the fourth!

[SwordGuy]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

When I got my first local job in this area, the insurance was by Cigna.  Apparently where the national HQ was the coverage was ok.   I ask my coworkers for a recommendation for a dentist who's covered by the plan.  The answer was, "Oh, there used to be one but he died a few years back."  I kid you not.

Turned out that some of the zip codes employees were commuting from were covered by blue cross/blue shield but the bulk were covered by cigna.   At one point over half the office were lying about where they lived so they could get on bc/bs instead.    I had a lawyer friend with the right zip code so I provided the address of my attorney to my employer for my mailing address.   That way, it wasn't technically a lie. :)

[Dicey]

Ok.  Glad we all got that out of our system.  Now...how was everyone's 4th?

I got to work with our wonderful health insurance system.  My Primary Dr's office was closed starting Wednesday and I had a bunch of symptoms making me miserable.  Dr office said to go to Urgent Care facility.

Being that we don't want to be charged $50k for out of network, got onto Cigna's site (yes, I'm happy to call them out) and looked up Urgent Care facilities nearby.  We called the top 3.  All were out of date numbers and not for the facility listed.  Finally called Cigna.  They gave us the number of a recommended facility.  Called and guess what?  That Urgent Care center is no longer in business.  We found one nearby that appeared to be in plan.  Called them to see and they say they are in Cigna's plan.  So I go there.  We'll see.  I'm expecting an out of network denial of their charges because Cigna sucks so much.

I changed primary care Dr's in the last 2 years and while searching Cigna's approved list, I found:  Dead doctors, doctors who had moved away, doctors who had retired, doctors who are no longer with the listed practice, doctors who are not taking new patients.

/rant    I do feel better now, though.

When I got my first local job in this area, the insurance was by Cigna.  Apparently where the national HQ was the coverage was ok.   I ask my coworkers for a recommendation for a dentist who's covered by the plan.  The answer was, "Oh, there used to be one but he died a few years back."  I kid you not.

Turned out that some of the zip codes employees were commuting from were covered by blue cross/blue shield but the bulk were covered by cigna.   At one point over half the office were lying about where they lived so they could get on bc/bs instead.    I had a lawyer friend with the right zip code so I provided the address of my attorney to my employer for my mailing address.   That way, it wasn't technically a lie. :)

IMO, figuring shit like this out is what a true Mustachian does. Good on you!

[ysette9]

Though of course it is total bullshit that anyone has to resort to such tactics for something as basic as a dentist or a doctor.

[Dicey]

Though of course it is total bullshit that anyone has to resort to such tactics for something as basic as a dentist or a doctor.

Agree to infinity and beyond.

[soccerluvof4]

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

[Fomerly known as something]

The one thing I love in "Americans" saying well we don't want British or Canadian lines for health care.  Obviously these Americans have never tried to find a Doctor in NYC.  Everyone I called, it was always a 6 week wait for an appointment.

[Dicey]

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

[Exflyboy]

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

She is on Youtube too. If you can scam some lidocaine from somewhere and grab a steak knife you're good to go.. Frontier medicine at its best..;)

[Dicey]

Different but the stupidity of the health system I have a rather large lump on my back (have had about 25 years) basically a big cyst that its time to get removed as its getting a bit bigger about the size of a large Gumball. Anyhow I was at the Y and notice a guy had the same thing and he said he was going in next week to get removed. Same spot and everything. Long story short he told me to make sure I tell the doctor it is starting to hurt otherwise the insurance company wont cover it. This isnt some little cosmetic thing they have to really go in deep to get it all and for years my doctor has told me I better get it removed that no good can come from it. Anyhow it just pisses me off that basically I need to lie to get something done that should just be done with no hassle.

Not to alarm you, but I had something similar. However, it didn't turn out to be a harmless lipoma. It had become a sarcoma, which is much more dangerous. Funny, when I went to the doctor, it didn't hurt. He told me if it got any bigger it was going to start pressing on nerves and become painful. Glad I listened and didn't wait. BTW, nobody expected the sarcoma. Routine pathology caught it and MD Anderson confirmed it. Don't wait.

Also, search Dr. Pimple Popper on You Tube. She handles lots of these. She has a show on cable, so start there, if you have it.

She is on Youtube too. If you can scam some lidocaine from somewhere and grab a steak knife you're good to go.. Frontier medicine at its best..;)

If I was closer, I'd give you a good smack. Hmmm, I have friends (well, more like relatives of friends) in Corvallis...maybe I can commission them to do a little work for me, if you know what I mean.

Edit - Oh wait! I misread who wrote what. Nevermind. No, not nevermind. No lidocaine and no cutting from either of you. Do you boys hear me? I mean it!

[pecunia]

Looks like the Dow Jones is headed for another new high!  It has bumped 27,000 for the first time.  If it doesn't crash in the last hour of the day, it will be good.